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Social Web Working Group Teleconference

03 Mar 2015


See also: IRC log


elf-pavlik, +1.314.777.aaaa, AdamB, +1.617.247.aabb, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, rhiaro, bret, Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, +, bblfish, wilkie, Tsyesika, Ann, ShaneHudson, bill-looby, Harry_Halpin, +1.408.335.aadd


<trackbot> Date: 03 March 2015

<bret> aaronpk: how did you get Zakim to remember you?

<ShaneHudson> Hi all, sorry I've not made the previous few calls, had a lot of hospital visits etc. Back to normal now though hopefully :)

<elf-pavlik> Zakim--

<Loqi> Zakim has 0 karma

<bret> nice

<Tsyesika> huh

<Arnaud> scribe: jasnell

Arnaud: approval of the minutes 2015-02-24

<Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approval of Minutes of 24 February 2015 Teleconf

<elf-pavlik> +1

Arnaud: No objections, minutes approved

<Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approve Minutes of 24 February 2015 Teleconf

<wilkie> +1

<tantek> +1

Arnaud: Next call on 2015-03-10

<Loqi> I added a countdown for 3/10 12:00am (#5647)

<bret> tantek: oh noes... works with an Ekiga account

Next F2F


<tantek> BTW - is there any way to indicate meal preferences / requirements for f2f?

<tantek> sandro?

<tantek> how would you like that information?

Arnaud: talking about f2f in two weeks in Boston/MIT

<tantek> I know we have at least one pesceterian (myself), and vegan.

<Loqi> harry: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 21 minutes ago: you mentioned something about webfinger on the email list "streaming/push "out of scope", was Re: on API Requirements" - I don't see webfinger as required or even desired as a building block for the socialweb. IndieWeb sites don't depend on it at all for federation etc.

Arnaud: first half of first day, AS2, second half first day, API, first half second day, Federation, remaining open

<elf-pavlik> aaronpk++ for vegan

<Loqi> aaronpk has 721 karma

Arnaud: Please everyone take a look at the agenda and goals for the F2F

<elf-pavlik> issue-6

<trackbot> issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open


<elf-pavlik> action-36

<trackbot> action-36 -- Sandro Hawke to Resolve issue 6 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN


Arnaud: Please get input in asap and make sure you let us know if you're able or not able to go
... Questions on Logistics... where are we meeting exactly

Sandro: Meeting in "Star"

Arnaud/Ann: Please add directions to wiki

<bret> maps and links to google maps are super helpful when navigating any college campus

Sandro: give yourselves extra time to get lost

<tantek> Sandro, is there a permalink to the venue?

<harry> The largest problem I've seen is going up the wrong elevator

<harry> and there's multiple entrances

Arnaud: What about the Food

Sandro/Harry: Where we getting the funding for yummy foodstuffs.

Arnaud: Harry/Sandro to add details to wiki

<elf-pavlik> issue-6

<trackbot> issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open


<elf-pavlik> action-36

<trackbot> action-36 -- Sandro Hawke to Resolve issue 6 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN


Sandro: Polycom/Zakim bridge for room

Arnaud: That's it for F2F, please provide feedback on the agenda to mailing list or wiki

Tracking of Actions and Issues

Arnaud: Tracking of Issues and Actions

<bblfish> issue-6?

<trackbot> issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open


Arnaud: Closing issue-6


<bblfish> issue-15

<trackbot> issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates and efforts -- raised


Arnaud: issue-15

Elf: clarify AS2 overlaps with microformats and

Harry: w3c recs cannot have normative dependencies on non-normative specs
... specifically with regards to, we cannot normatively depend on it

<tantek> what makes a spec non-normative?

Harry: let's please stop bringing it up over and over

<harry> It keeps coming up on mailing lists again and again

Arnaud: is a live document

<tantek> why would we want to normatively depend on something that's been developed closed?

<harry> Please just read your email.

(harry, I'm scribing not commenting ;-) ...)

<tantek> even if it is published openly?

<tantek> is not openly controlled

Elf: How about microformats overlap

<tantek> and no idea who writes what behind schema, no revision history

<bblfish> Harry mentioned that some folks at w3c are working with to see how the w3c could tie in with it

<tantek> elf-pavlik, every microformats wiki edit has sourcing / accountability

<tantek> and barrier to edit on the wiki is very low

<tantek> contributions come from many people

<bblfish> harry mentioned ralf swick

Harry: keep in open but needs to depend on progress in other areas

<harry> Normative means that it has been stabilized so that there is a stable reference and through a process that is compatible with W3C's patent policy

<tantek> harry, by those requirements, microformats specs qualify, as do indieweb specs

<tantek> even if in draft form, they're already fairly stable

<tantek> URLs / references are stable

<harry> Google has expressed they are interested in a W3C normative snapshot, but haven't done that yet. Ralph Swick is discussing with Guha.

<tantek> feature sets are stable

<harry> Re microformats, that's a question for W3C legal and I'll bring it up with Wendy Seltzer

<harry> Usually normative means ISO, IETF, other W3C specs that are Rec

<bblfish> I kind of agree there with harry and whoever spoke there

<tantek> harry, I believe both and specs qualify for normative references

Jasnell: I agree with Harry that should be on the agenda

Harry: Will review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats

<tantek> I don't because no schema companies participate in this WG

<tantek> we've been over this before

<Loqi> Aboyet made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17

<Arnaud> ACTION: harry to review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats [recorded in [[1]|]]]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Review with wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-10].

<tantek> anyone that wants schema on the agenda should make sure to get schema companies to join social web wg

<tantek> otherwise I object to adding schema to the agenda

btw tantek... that wasn't a dig at microformats, it's just not a "normative spec" in the sense typically viewed within w3c/ietf etc

Harry: keep it open as a placeholder for now

<tantek> jasnell: I realize W3C is still learning / figuring out how to link to living specs.

Harry: we should not have to keep reviewing it every meeting

<tantek> even if living just means errata

tantek: agreed

<Arnaud> PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-15 as a placeholder, recognizing we can't do anything about it until the situation with is resolved

<elf-pavlik> +1

<bblfish> well it makes sense to have this answer. Because I think that Elf is just keen to keep those groups on board.

<tantek> harry - I don't want schema on the agenda, even as a placeholder, until schema companies join the WG


<bblfish> +1

<ShaneHudson> +1

<ben_thatmustbeme> +0

<wilkie> +0

<Arnaud> RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-15 as a placeholder, recognizing we can't do anything about it until the situation with is resolved

Arnaud: Next, issue-16

<bblfish> iiseu-16?

<bblfish> issue-16

<trackbot> issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- raised


<harry> understood Tantek, but Ralph is negotiating this with Google so we're just waiting to see if progress is made.

<elf-pavlik> dret ?

<harry> If not, we'll drop everything when we hit CR

<tantek> I'm happy to discuss microformats2 - AS2 mappings

<tantek> in fact I think that *should* be on the agenda for the f2f

<tantek> PROPOSED: Discuss and figure out microformats2 - AS2 mappings at f2f

<bret> mappings++

<Loqi> mappings has 1 karma

<Arnaud> PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-16

<elf-pavlik> +1

Jasnell: recommends opening -16


<Arnaud> RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-16

Arnaud: no objections, open -16

issue -17:

<Arnaud> issue-17?

<trackbot> issue-17 -- Identity, Agent, Person, Persona, Account etc. need clarifications -- raised


<bret> can someone link that github issue?

Elf: need to clarify things around Actors

<bblfish> very difficult to hear james

<elf-pavlik> jasnell: we need to refine existing classes, possibly remove some or add new ones

<Arnaud> PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-17

<elf-pavlik> +1

my apologies for audio issues

<bblfish> I wonder why we don't just use foaf

Arnaud: open -17

<KevinMarks> I wonder why no-one uses FOAF

<Arnaud> RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-17

<bblfish> foaf is pretty widely deployed KevinMarks

<tantek> bblfish: citation needed

Arnaud: Proposal from tantek to discuss microformats2 + as2 mappings at f2f

<ben_thatmustbeme> tantek is not on the call

<tantek> thank you Arnaud

<ben_thatmustbeme> had issues joining

<tantek> ben_thatmustbeme - I proposed in IRC

<tantek> ^^^


<KevinMarks> Zakim aadd is me

Arnaud: Tantek: just go ahead and add it to the agenda

<tantek> ben_thatmustbeme see

Arnaud: one of the goals of the f2f needs to be to close as many issues as possible
... we have a list of open actions

<tantek> thanks Arnaud adding

Harry: will review actions as soon as time is available

<elf-pavlik> i have 3 ready :)

Arnaud: done tracking actions and issues

Elf: Issue -7

<bill-looby> James - if you want you can assign the Connections action to me

<ben_thatmustbeme> someone is causing feedback loop on audio

<bblfish> there is an echo

<bblfish> zakim who is making noise?

<Arnaud> ISSUE-7?

<trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- Are AS consumers required to understand the pre-JSON-LD syntax? -- pending review


<elf-pavlik> jasnell: currently we require to provide compacted version of JSON-LD using normative @context

<elf-pavlik> jasnell: question - do we need more detailed processing model

<tantek> hoping that context is not required, for publishing or consumption

<elf-pavlik> jasnell: how two implementers can interpret it exactly in the same way

Arnaud: marking issue -7 as still open

<tantek> ASIDE: for f2f food preferences/requirements, for now I suggest adding in a parenthetical remark next to your name:

<elf-pavlik> action-11

<trackbot> action-11 -- Pavlik elf to Expand on Facebook APIs -- due 2014-11-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW


(elf, thank you for helping scribe while I talk :-) ..)

<elf-pavlik> action-34

<trackbot> action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW


Elf: added expanded discussion of facebook api's to wiki
... for #34, added discussion around microformats to wiki, needs review

Arnaud, you're echo'ing like crazy

<harry> My opinion was index

<bblfish> I think it happens wehenver Elf is online.

<harry> or appendix

Elf: leave 34 open for feedback

<elf-pavlik> action-39

<trackbot> action-39 -- Pavlik elf to Follow up with xAPI developers community -- due 2015-03-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW


<KevinMarks> it may not be arnaud causing the echo

Elf: had a call with xAPI, moved those discussions to IG
... let's close 39 for now

Arnaud: Closing 39
... done with actions and issues
... Next.. social api user stories

Social API User Stories

Arnaud: vote ended
... now to sort things out
... Evan said he'd start sorting but he's not here... any updates?

<Loqi> aww, cheer up

<harry> I recommend that we try to agree on a process going forward

defer to next week?

<harry> with the stories

<ben_thatmustbeme> No updates, but I am willing to try going through to sort myself

<tantek> I'd like to at least gather the stories that we have *strong* consensus on


<tantek> i.e. no -1s, and far more +1s than 0s

Henry: we need to look at the controversial items more
... we need to understand the reasons for the disagreements.

<tantek> I think we should prioritize by strong consensus for, weak consensus for, weak consensus against, strong consensus against

<tantek> within that sorting, I agree that we need to broaden understanding of the reasons for disagreement

Arnaud: Agree. Three different buckets: (1) everyone agrees, (2) enough agreement but maybe some objections to deal with, (3) no support
... differentiate between "Not interesting right now" vs "Not interesting at all"
... Keep everything, just sort it

<tantek> Arnaud, I think it's important to distinguish *strong* agreement vs. weak/passive agreement

Harry: Concerned that we'll go into endless user story discussion. By next week let's get everything sorted

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17

<Loqi> Aaronpk made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17

Harry: Rough consensus, Rough consensus with objections, Multiple objections
... Get consensus face to face *before* f2f

<tantek> what if we did v1 core API using only user stories that have strong consensus?


Harry: Get consensus *before* f2f

<tantek> that seems like a good way to get a minimum viable v1 social api

<tantek> I doubt we're going to resolve all user stories before f2f

<harry> Zakim mute me

<tantek> it's in only two weeks!

<elf-pavlik> tantek, we need to also clarify what you mean by v1...

<elf-pavlik> but maybe not now

<harry> I do not want to spend the entire f2f discussing user stories

<tantek> elf-pavlik: the first version of a social api we take to CR

<harry> that is likely a waste of time

<harry> i.e. the XG discussed user stories for about a year with no visible progress :)

<tantek> harry, we can timebox it

<tantek> harry - the XG didn't even document a canonical list of user stories

Henry: there are cases where we have the time, if we have the process, to get stories clarified where there are objections

<tantek> which is why we had to do it ourselves in the WG

<harry> No, it did - see wiki page

<harry> its just people keep adding new ones

<tantek> harry, this WG in two weeks produced better quality user stories / use-cases than all the XG work

<harry> The main difference is we had a time limit :)

<tantek> XG was kind of a disaster

<ben_thatmustbeme> I would suggest working with the More Stories page to attempt to do this, I have already done this

<ben_thatmustbeme> on some

<tantek> endless email threads

Arnaud: someone needs to take a pass at organizing

<harry> Well, it was a disaster insofar as we spent too much time on user stories

Arnaud: Evan was going to do it, not sure it happened yet.

<harry> In general, I suggest we try to get consensus on the 'core' before the f2f

Arnaud: any other volunteers just in case?

<ben_thatmustbeme> unmute me

<tantek> harry - it was a disaster in that it was email-only discussion about web.


<bblfish> I'll do it

<harry> I'm happy to work with Evan as well.

Ben: volunteers to go through it

<harry> Note that we had telecons and a Twitter account for the XG, as well as a blog and wiki :)

<melvster> consensus is good but, there w3c is also committed openstand standards principles, such as scalability, that needs to be a consideration, imho

<harry> Thus, my proposal is 3 buckets:

<harry> 1) Clear consensus

<tantek> harry - when a groupd is dominated by email-list people, it doesn't produce a lot for the web

Ben: How do we deal with the -1's ...

<harry> 2) Rough consensus - with a few objections

<tantek> melvster - please leave aside "openstand" - openstand itself does not comply with openstand principles

<harry> 3) Multiple objections and lack of interest from implementers

<tantek> harry 1) is insufficient

Arnaud: if ben is willing to go through and move things around then great, but please coordinate with Evan

<harry> So we can then spend time at f2f addressing 2).

<tantek> really should distinguish STRONG consensus (i.e. majority +1s, no -1s)

<tantek> from weak consensus (no -1s)

Arnaud: if anyone sees one of their stories being challenge, consider attempting to address the challenge by updating the story

Henry: what's the best way process wise?

<tantek> Arnaud, or withdraw user-story

<tantek> we should make a section for people to voluntarily withdraw user stories

Henry: feedback to mailing list or wiki? two days to write then feedback?

<tantek> perhaps postponed? or withdrawn for v1?

tantek: +1

<KevinMarks> mailing lists are terrible at consensus

<tantek> let's not waste time trying to resolve disputes on user stories that seem hopeless

<tantek> mailing-lists--

<Loqi> mailing-lists has -1 karma

who just spoke?

missed that last suggestion

Arnaud: if you want to propose a modified version of a story, ping anyone who has objected to notify of new version, ask if that addresses the issue
... as tantek suggests, people should consider pulling stories back out

<wilkie> unless they have nothing but +1s?

Arnaud: want a formal action or...?

lot's of static

<bblfish> zakim mute ??P22

Ben: don't need a formal action

<bret> whats wrong with Zakim?

Arnaud: Everyone go on mute please

<harry> Zakim mute Arnaud

<harry> Zaim, mute dromasca

<tantek> I can attempt to group apparent STRONG consensus stories

well, this is fun

<Loqi> Bill-looby made 1 edit to Socialwg/Social API/Patterns

<elf-pavlik> Zakim--

<Loqi> Zakim has -1 karma

<KevinMarks> I'm +1.408.335.aadd,

<KevinMarks> but I'm muted at my end

Arnaud: may not be able to proceed with the noise
... let's try


sweet relief

<bret> whoever just did something, thankyou

<KevinMarks> what changed?

Arnaud: anything else to discuss?

<tantek> apparently I am not missing much in audio?

Arnaud: Elf added bullets.. want to discuss?

<elf-pavlik> i don't want to unmute, needed to use different device

<bret> tantek: its fixed now

tantek: you missed some wonderful static

<elf-pavlik> mostly IG work on Vocabulary terms based on User Stories


Arnaud: if there's nothing else for today, postpone for next week?

<bret> i added an item to the agenda, do you want to cover it this week?

Henry: there's a confusion between what API's are doing, what vocabularies are doing, what clients are doing, etc

<bret> last item on

Henry: there are misunderstandings around the user stories due to confusion between roles in the API and Vocabulary, etc

Arnaud: let's not speculate and let elf comment

<harry> bblfish, I think people have different opinions here

Henry: what is the role of the API vs. the role of the vocabulary

<elf-pavlik> e.g.

<tantek> attempting to follow by IRC

<bblfish> +1

<tantek> wait, is anyone here running hydra on their personal site?

<tantek> I'm really confused why it keeps coming up

<bblfish> who just spoke

<tantek> is it like, cut off one hydra discussion, two more spring up in its place?

Arnaud: remaining issues in last 5 mins... bret...?

<bblfish> the last person to speak was not logged

<bret> can you here me?

<bret> darn

Jasnell: agreed with Henry that the role of the API and Vocabulary need to be clarified

<harry> bret, you may be muted locally

<harry> or you can type in IRC

<bret> ill just use irc

<wilkie> therefore, technology is not great :)

Jasnell: indicated that clarification would help determine what parts of the vocabulary can be simplified, if any

<bret> I just wanted to discuss how this API can be accessed

<elf-pavlik> bret, can you post more info to mailing list?

Arnaud: how do we even find the entry point

<KevinMarks> technology is what doesn't work yet

<harry> I think this is the 'discovery' problem ala WebFinger

<bret> I can bring it up at another meeting

Henry: following links

<KevinMarks> you want a rel link on page

Arnaud: we had the same question in LDP, settled on doing nothing

<tantek> bret - perhaps add as first agenda item for 03-10 call?

<tantek> it's amazing how productive doing nothing can be

Arnaud: how do start when using the web. Usually starts with search engine or URL to somewhere

<elf-pavlik> please read:

<harry> I imagine some link following will work out

tantek: +1

<bret> i can talk about it more when my aduio works

<bret> sry


<bret> i had a small example to show

<harry> however, I'm not really into re-inventing the wheel unless we have some success in terms of implementation.

<elf-pavlik> anything for IG tomorrow?

<bret> lets defert

<tantek> citation,

<bret> defer*

<bret> srry guys

Jasnell: defer to next week to let bret comment further

Harry: it's worth discussing, at the same time it's easy to rathole. We don't want yet another discovery dead end
... webfinger is one possible way but we can figure it out

<tantek> harry, do you support webfinger on your personal site?

<bret> is in scope?

<tantek> if not, I don't believe it is "one possible way" :P

Harry: if we have some New Exciting And Wonderful Discovery mechanism on the table, then ok let's discuss, but if not, let's focus on API

<harry> No, but large providers have historically supported it - at some point Google did.

<harry> I believe they may have dropped

<tantek> sounded like bret's issue was more conneg than discovery

<elf-pavlik> nothing specific, just invitation!

Arnaud: closing, please provide feedback to IG agenda. IG call tomorrow

<tantek> harry, yeah, at some point, then it broke. hence fragile.

Arnaud: Thank you all for joining

<elf-pavlik> jasnell++

<Loqi> jasnell has 3 karma

<harry> +1 Arnaud

<tantek> no one noticed it was broken

<wilkie> jasnell++

<Loqi> jasnell has 4 karma

<bret> tantek: ill raise it next week

<tantek> because no one was consuming Google's webfinger in realtime


<tantek> or for any practical reason

<bret> unfortunately audio was acting up today

<elf-pavlik> jasnell,

<KevinMarks> I don't even have email on my personal site so WebFinger is irrelevant

<bret> bye

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud++


Arnaud: all done

<Loqi> Arnaud has 3 karma

<Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting

<tantek> thus I question any claims of webfinger deployment

<elf-pavlik> i hope before f2f

<tantek> welcome back RRSAgent, who paged you?

<Arnaud> I did

<Arnaud> the logs aren't accessible for some reason

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud,

<elf-pavlik> it looks like like they should

<elf-pavlik> i just requested same config for IG after last call

<tantek> curious

<Arnaud> oh I know they "should"

<Arnaud> but it tends to often fail for some reason unfortunately

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud, harry any way to help with fixing W3C setup?

<elf-pavlik> for example digitalbazaar has VoIP working much better - used in Credentials CG and some other CGs

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: harry to review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats [recorded in]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.140 (CVS log)
$Date: 2015-03-03 19:10:04 $

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Found Scribe: jasnell
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Default Present: elf-pavlik, +1.314.777.aaaa, AdamB, +1.617.247.aabb, ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, rhiaro, bret, Sandro, Arnaud, dromasca, jasnell, +, bblfish, wilkie, Tsyesika, Ann, ShaneHudson, bill-looby, Harry_Halpin, +1.408.335.aadd
Present: elf-pavlik +1.314.777.aaaa AdamB +1.617.247.aabb ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk rhiaro bret Sandro Arnaud dromasca jasnell + bblfish wilkie Tsyesika Ann ShaneHudson bill-looby Harry_Halpin +1.408.335.aadd
Found Date: 03 Mar 2015
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People with action items: harry

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