17:57:10 RRSAgent has joined #social 17:57:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/03-social-irc 17:57:12 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:57:14 Zakim, this will be SOCL 17:57:14 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 17:57:15 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 17:57:15 Date: 03 March 2015 17:58:21 T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started 17:58:28 +??P3 17:58:36 + +1.314.777.aaaa 17:58:48 Zakim, aaaa is me 17:58:48 +AdamB; got it 17:59:42 + +1.617.247.aabb 17:59:52 ShaneHudson has joined #social 18:00:01 Zakim, aabb is me 18:00:01 +ben_thatmustbeme; got it 18:00:04 +aaronpk 18:00:09 Zakim, mute me 18:00:09 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 18:00:28 +??P11 18:00:35 +??P12 18:00:37 aaronpk: how did you get Zakim to remember you? 18:00:50 dromasca has joined #social 18:00:50 Zakim, ??P12 is me 18:00:50 Hi all, sorry I've not made the previous few calls, had a lot of hospital visits etc. Back to normal now though hopefully :) 18:00:51 +bret; got it 18:00:51 +Sandro 18:01:02 Zakim, mute me 18:01:02 bret should now be muted 18:01:19 +Arnaud 18:01:23 jasnell has joined #social 18:01:42 +dromasca 18:01:55 Zakim-- 18:01:57 Zakim has 0 karma 18:01:59 Arnaud has joined #social 18:02:07 +jasnell 18:02:34 + +33.6.43.93.aacc 18:02:44 +[IPcaller] 18:02:44 Zakim, aacc is me 18:02:45 AnnB has joined #social 18:02:46 +bblfish; got it 18:02:46 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:02:46 +wilkie; got it 18:02:55 nice 18:03:03 +??P29 18:03:15 Zakim, ??P29 is me 18:03:16 +Tsyesika; got it 18:03:16 +Ann 18:03:21 +[IPcaller] 18:03:24 huh 18:03:34 bill-looby has joined #social 18:03:41 +??P13 18:03:43 Zakim, mute me 18:03:43 Tsyesika should now be muted 18:03:49 Zakim, ??P13 is me 18:03:49 +ShaneHudson; got it 18:03:53 Zakim, mute me 18:03:53 ShaneHudson should now be muted 18:04:03 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:04:03 +bill-looby; got it 18:04:11 scribe: jasnell 18:04:18 chair: Arnaud 18:04:21 agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-03 18:04:57 Arnaud: approval of the minutes 2015-02-24 18:05:04 PROPOSED: Approval of Minutes of 24 February 2015 Teleconf https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-24-minutes 18:05:06 +1 18:05:18 Arnaud: No objections, minutes approved 18:05:27 RESOLVED: Approve Minutes of 24 February 2015 Teleconf https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-24-minutes 18:05:28 +1 18:05:31 +1 18:05:46 Arnaud: Next call on 2015-03-10 18:05:47 I added a countdown for 3/10 12:00am (#5647) 18:05:49 tantek: oh noes... telephone.app works with an Ekiga account 18:05:50 topic: Next F2F 18:06:05 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17 18:06:23 BTW - is there any way to indicate meal preferences / requirements for f2f? 18:06:26 sandro? 18:06:27 harry has joined #social 18:06:30 how would you like that information? 18:06:36 Arnaud: talking about f2f in two weeks in Boston/MIT 18:06:47 Zakim, code? 18:06:47 the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry 18:06:48 I know we have at least one pesceterian (myself), and vegan. 18:06:55 harry: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 21 minutes ago: you mentioned something about webfinger on the email list "streaming/push "out of scope", was Re: on API Requirements" - I don't see webfinger as required or even desired as a building block for the socialweb. IndieWeb sites don't depend on it at all for federation etc. 18:07:08 Arnaud: first half of first day, AS2, second half first day, API, first half second day, Federation, remaining open 18:07:10 aaronpk++ for vegan 18:07:12 aaronpk has 721 karma 18:07:39 Arnaud: Please everyone take a look at the agenda and goals for the F2F 18:07:42 +Harry_Halpin 18:08:12 issue-6 18:08:12 issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open 18:08:12 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/6 18:08:18 action-36 18:08:18 action-36 -- Sandro Hawke to Resolve issue 6 https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/6 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN 18:08:18 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/36 18:08:46 Arnaud: Please get input in asap and make sure you let us know if you're able or not able to go 18:09:06 Arnaud: Questions on Logistics... where are we meeting exactly 18:09:49 Sandro: Meeting in "Star" 18:10:05 Arnaud/Ann: Please add directions to wiki 18:10:19 maps and links to google maps are super helpful when navigating any college campus 18:10:22 Sandro: give yourselves extra time to get lost 18:10:37 Sandro, is there a permalink to the venue? 18:10:40 The largest problem I've seen is going up the wrong elevator 18:10:50 and there's multiple entrances 18:11:38 Arnaud: What about the Food 18:12:09 Sandro/Harry: Where we getting the funding for yummy foodstuffs. 18:12:40 Arnaud: Harry/Sandro to add details to wiki 18:12:46 issue-6 18:12:46 issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open 18:12:46 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/6 18:12:58 action-36 18:12:58 action-36 -- Sandro Hawke to Resolve issue 6 https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/6 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN 18:12:58 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/36 18:13:03 Sandro: Polycom/Zakim bridge for room 18:13:36 Arnaud: That's it for F2F, please provide feedback on the agenda to mailing list or wiki 18:13:46 topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues 18:13:57 Arnaud: Tracking of Issues and Actions 18:14:03 issue-6? 18:14:03 issue-6 -- Make sure we have teleconferencing equipment for next f2f -- open 18:14:03 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/6 18:14:16 Arnaud: Closing issue-6 18:14:43 https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised 18:15:02 issue-15 18:15:02 issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates microformats.org and schema.org efforts -- raised 18:15:02 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/15 18:15:05 Arnaud: issue-15 18:15:08 q+ 18:15:25 Elf: clarify AS2 overlaps with microformats and schema.org 18:15:28 ack harry 18:15:56 Harry: w3c recs cannot have normative dependencies on non-normative specs 18:16:13 Harry: specifically with regards to schema.org, we cannot normatively depend on it 18:16:15 what makes a spec non-normative? 18:16:31 Harry: let's please stop bringing it up over and over 18:16:36 It keeps coming up on mailing lists again and again 18:16:41 Arnaud: schema.org is a live document 18:16:45 why would we want to normatively depend on something that's been developed closed? 18:16:48 Please just read your email. 18:16:53 (harry, I'm scribing not commenting ;-) ...) 18:16:54 even if it is published openly? 18:17:11 schema.org is not openly controlled 18:17:11 Elf: How about microformats overlap 18:17:26 and no idea who writes what behind schema, no revision history 18:17:29 Harry mentioned that some folks at w3c are working with schema.org to see how the w3c could tie in with it 18:17:39 elf-pavlik, every microformats wiki edit has sourcing / accountability 18:17:45 and barrier to edit on the wiki is very low 18:17:51 contributions come from many people 18:17:54 harry mentioned ralf swick 18:17:55 Harry: keep in open but needs to depend on progress in other areas 18:17:59 q+ 18:18:07 ack jasnell 18:18:08 Normative means that it has been stabilized so that there is a stable reference and through a process that is compatible with W3C's patent policy 18:18:27 harry, by those requirements, microformats specs qualify, as do indieweb specs 18:18:36 even if in draft form, they're already fairly stable 18:18:45 URLs / references are stable 18:18:49 + +1.408.335.aadd 18:18:50 Google has expressed they are interested in a W3C normative snapshot, but haven't done that yet. Ralph Swick is discussing with Guha. 18:18:51 feature sets are stable 18:19:03 Re microformats, that's a question for W3C legal and I'll bring it up with Wendy Seltzer 18:19:19 Usually normative means ISO, IETF, other W3C specs that are Rec 18:19:21 q+ 18:19:24 I kind of agree there with harry and whoever spoke there 18:19:25 ack harry 18:19:25 harry, I believe both microformats.org and indiewebcamp.com specs qualify for normative references 18:19:37 Jasnell: I agree with Harry that schema.org should be on the agenda 18:19:39 KevinMarks has joined #social 18:19:50 Harry: Will review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats 18:19:51 I don't because no schema companies participate in this WG 18:19:54 we've been over this before 18:20:03 Aboyet made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82611&oldid=82605 18:20:15 action: harry to review with Wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats 18:20:15 Created ACTION-41 - Review with wendy to figure out best way forward with microformats [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-10]. 18:20:19 anyone that wants schema on the agenda should make sure to get schema companies to join social web wg 18:20:30 otherwise I object to adding schema to the agenda 18:20:40 -Ann 18:20:40 btw tantek... that wasn't a dig at microformats, it's just not a "normative spec" in the sense typically viewed within w3c/ietf etc 18:20:55 Harry: keep it open as a placeholder for now 18:21:09 jasnell: I realize W3C is still learning / figuring out how to link to living specs. 18:21:15 Harry: we should not have to keep reviewing it every meeting 18:21:15 even if living just means errata 18:21:26 tantek: agreed 18:21:33 PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-15 as a placeholder, recognizing we can't do anything about it until the situation with schema.org is resolved 18:21:38 +1 18:21:40 well it makes sense to have this answer. Because I think that Elf is just keen to keep those groups on board. 18:21:41 harry - I don't want schema on the agenda, even as a placeholder, until schema companies join the WG 18:21:43 +0 18:21:45 +1 18:22:03 +1 18:22:03 +0 18:22:05 +0 18:22:11 RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-15 as a placeholder, recognizing we can't do anything about it until the situation with schema.org is resolved 18:22:19 Arnaud: Next, issue-16 18:22:22 iiseu-16? 18:22:28 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/16 18:22:28 issue-16 18:22:28 issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- raised 18:22:28 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/16 18:22:36 understood Tantek, but Ralph is negotiating this with Google so we're just waiting to see if progress is made. 18:22:40 dret ? 18:22:42 If not, we'll drop everything when we hit CR 18:22:45 q+ 18:22:51 ack jasnell 18:22:58 I'm happy to discuss microformats2 - AS2 mappings 18:23:06 in fact I think that *should* be on the agenda for the f2f 18:23:22 PROPOSED: Discuss and figure out microformats2 - AS2 mappings at f2f 18:23:40 mappings++ 18:23:42 mappings has 1 karma 18:24:08 PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-16 18:24:14 +1 18:24:26 Jasnell: recommends opening -16 18:24:28 +1 18:24:35 RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-16 18:24:42 Arnaud: no objections, open -16 18:25:00 issue -17: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/17 18:25:16 issue-17? 18:25:16 issue-17 -- Identity, Agent, Person, Persona, Account etc. need clarifications -- raised 18:25:16 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/17 18:25:19 can someone link that github issue? 18:25:22 Elf: need to clarify things around Actors 18:25:23 q+ 18:25:33 ack jasnell 18:25:44 very difficult to hear james 18:26:08 jasnell: we need to refine existing classes, possibly remove some or add new ones 18:26:12 PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-17 18:26:15 +1 18:26:21 my apologies for audio issues 18:26:32 I wonder why we don't just use foaf 18:26:35 Arnaud: open -17 18:26:47 I wonder why no-one uses FOAF 18:26:47 RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-17 18:27:04 foaf is pretty widely deployed KevinMarks 18:27:21 bblfish: citation needed 18:27:24 Arnaud: Proposal from tantek to discuss microformats2 + as2 mappings at f2f 18:27:33 tantek is not on the call 18:27:35 thank you Arnaud 18:27:39 had issues joining 18:27:43 ben_thatmustbeme - I proposed in IRC 18:27:45 ^^^ 18:28:13 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/pendingreview 18:28:15 Zakim aadd is me 18:28:20 Arnaud: Tantek: just go ahead and add it to the agenda 18:28:26 ben_thatmustbeme see http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-03#t1425407002770 18:28:40 Arnaud: one of the goals of the f2f needs to be to close as many issues as possible 18:28:49 Arnaud: we have a list of open actions 18:28:56 thanks Arnaud adding 18:29:10 Harry: will review actions as soon as time is available 18:29:12 i have 3 ready :) 18:29:24 Arnaud: done tracking actions and issues 18:29:35 Elf: Issue -7 18:29:48 James - if you want you can assign the Connections action to me 18:29:49 Zakim, who is talking? 18:29:49 I am sorry, bret; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now 18:29:49 someone is causing feedback loop on audio 18:29:56 there is an echo 18:30:07 Zakim, who is making noise? 18:30:07 I am sorry, bret; I don't have the necessary resources to track talkers right now 18:30:08 zakim who is making noise? 18:30:37 ISSUE-7? 18:30:37 ISSUE-7 -- Are AS consumers required to understand the pre-JSON-LD syntax? -- pending review 18:30:37 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/7 18:31:32 jasnell: currently we require to provide compacted version of JSON-LD using normative @context 18:31:54 jasnell: question - do we need more detailed processing model 18:31:58 hoping that context is not required, for publishing or consumption 18:32:18 jasnell: how two implementers can interpret it exactly in the same way 18:32:47 Arnaud: marking issue -7 as still open 18:32:50 ASIDE: for f2f food preferences/requirements, for now I suggest adding in a parenthetical remark next to your name: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17#Participation 18:32:57 action-11 18:32:57 action-11 -- Pavlik elf to Expand on Facebook APIs -- due 2014-11-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:32:57 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/11 18:33:01 (elf, thank you for helping scribe while I talk :-) ..) 18:33:30 action-34 18:33:30 action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:33:30 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/34 18:33:37 Elf: added expanded discussion of facebook api's to wiki 18:34:00 Zakim, mute harry 18:34:00 Harry_Halpin should now be muted 18:34:06 -ShaneHudson 18:34:07 Elf: for #34, added discussion around microformats to wiki, needs review 18:34:16 Arnaud, you're echo'ing like crazy 18:34:30 My opinion was index 18:34:30 I think it happens wehenver Elf is online. 18:34:32 or appendix 18:34:36 Elf: leave 34 open for feedback 18:34:37 +??P13 18:34:39 action-39 18:34:40 action-39 -- Pavlik elf to Follow up with xAPI developers community -- due 2015-03-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW 18:34:40 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/39 18:34:44 it may not be arnaud causing the echo 18:34:44 Zakim, ??P13 is me 18:34:44 +ShaneHudson; got it 18:34:47 Zakim, mute me 18:34:47 ShaneHudson should now be muted 18:34:58 Elf: had a call with xAPI, moved those discussions to IG 18:35:16 Elf: let's close 39 for now 18:35:20 Arnaud: Closing 39 18:35:30 Arnaud: done with actions and issues 18:35:37 Arnaud: Next.. social api user stories 18:35:37 topic: Social API User Stories 18:35:40 Arnaud: vote ended 18:36:10 Arnaud: now to sort things out 18:36:27 Arnaud: Evan said he'd start sorting but he's not here... any updates? 18:36:30 aww, cheer up 18:36:39 I recommend that we try to agree on a process going forward 18:36:39 defer to next week? 18:36:41 with the stories 18:36:43 q+ 18:36:44 q+ 18:36:44 No updates, but I am willing to try going through to sort myself 18:36:54 ack bblfish 18:37:12 Zakim, unmute me 18:37:12 Harry_Halpin should no longer be muted 18:37:14 I'd like to at least gather the stories that we have *strong* consensus on 18:37:14 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories 18:37:26 i.e. no -1s, and far more +1s than 0s 18:37:27 Henry: we need to look at the controversial items more 18:37:54 Henry: we need to understand the reasons for the disagreements. 18:38:26 I think we should prioritize by strong consensus for, weak consensus for, weak consensus against, strong consensus against 18:38:26 within that sorting, I agree that we need to broaden understanding of the reasons for disagreement 18:38:39 Arnaud: Agree. Three different buckets: (1) everyone agrees, (2) enough agreement but maybe some objections to deal with, (3) no support 18:39:02 Arnaud: differentiate between "Not interesting right now" vs "Not interesting at all" 18:39:08 q+ 18:39:08 Arnaud: Keep everything, just sort it 18:39:12 Arnaud, I think it's important to distinguish *strong* agreement vs. weak/passive agreement 18:39:14 ack harry 18:39:43 Harry: Concerned that we'll go into endless user story discussion. By next week let's get everything sorted 18:40:02 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82612&oldid=82611 18:40:03 Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82613&oldid=82612 18:40:04 Harry: Rough consensus, Rough consensus with objections, Multiple objections 18:40:30 Harry: Get consensus face to face *before* f2f 18:40:33 what if we did v1 core API using only user stories that have strong consensus? 18:40:36 sigh 18:40:40 ack bblfish 18:40:43 Harry: Get consensus *before* f2f 18:40:52 that seems like a good way to get a minimum viable v1 social api 18:41:04 I doubt we're going to resolve all user stories before f2f 18:41:06 Zakim mute me 18:41:08 it's in only two weeks! 18:41:13 tantek, we need to also clarify what you mean by v1... 18:41:17 Zakim, mute me 18:41:17 Harry_Halpin should now be muted 18:41:20 but maybe not now 18:41:25 I do not want to spend the entire f2f discussing user stories 18:41:27 elf-pavlik: the first version of a social api we take to CR 18:41:29 that is likely a waste of time 18:41:39 i.e. the XG discussed user stories for about a year with no visible progress :) 18:41:41 harry, we can timebox it 18:41:54 harry - the XG didn't even document a canonical list of user stories 18:41:59 Harry: there are cases where we have the time, if we have the process, to get stories clarified where there are objections 18:41:59 which is why we had to do it ourselves in the WG 18:42:02 No, it did - see wiki page 18:42:06 its just people keep adding new ones 18:42:07 s/Harry/Henry 18:42:12 harry, this WG in two weeks produced better quality user stories / use-cases than all the XG work 18:42:14 The main difference is we had a time limit :) 18:42:16 XG was kind of a disaster 18:42:17 I would suggest working with the More Stories page to attempt to do this, I have already done this 18:42:19 on some 18:42:21 endless email threads 18:42:28 Arnaud: someone needs to take a pass at organizing 18:42:33 Well, it was a disaster insofar as we spent too much time on user stories 18:42:42 Arnaud: Evan was going to do it, not sure it happened yet. 18:42:48 In general, I suggest we try to get consensus on the 'core' before the f2f 18:42:49 q+ 18:42:49 Arnaud: any other volunteers just in case? 18:42:50 unmute me 18:42:51 harry - it was a disaster in that it was email-only discussion about web. 18:42:52 (crickets) 18:42:55 I'll do it 18:42:56 ack ben_thatmustbeme 18:43:02 I'm happy to work with Evan as well. 18:43:11 Ben: volunteers to go through it 18:43:19 Note that we had telecons and a Twitter account for the XG, as well as a blog and wiki :) 18:43:21 consensus is good but, there w3c is also committed openstand standards principles, such as scalability, that needs to be a consideration, imho 18:43:40 Thus, my proposal is 3 buckets: 18:43:43 1) Clear consensus 18:43:43 harry - when a groupd is dominated by email-list people, it doesn't produce a lot for the web 18:43:56 Ben: How do we deal with the -1's ... 18:44:03 2) Rough consensus - with a few objections 18:44:05 melvster - please leave aside "openstand" - openstand itself does not comply with openstand principles 18:44:11 3) Multiple objections and lack of interest from implementers 18:44:15 harry 1) is insufficient 18:44:17 Arnaud: if ben is willing to go through and move things around then great, but please coordinate with Evan 18:44:29 So we can then spend time at f2f addressing 2). 18:44:31 really should distinguish STRONG consensus (i.e. majority +1s, no -1s) 18:44:37 Zakim, mute me 18:44:37 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 18:44:38 from weak consensus (no -1s) 18:44:43 q+ 18:44:44 Arnaud: if anyone sees one of their stories being challenge, consider attempting to address the challenge by updating the story 18:44:49 ack bblfish 18:44:58 Henry: what's the best way process wise? 18:45:04 Arnaud, or withdraw user-story 18:45:17 we should make a section for people to voluntarily withdraw user stories 18:45:24 Henry: feedback to mailing list or wiki? two days to write then feedback? 18:45:26 perhaps postponed? or withdrawn for v1? 18:45:27 tantek: +1 18:45:34 mailing lists are terrible at consensus 18:45:40 let's not waste time trying to resolve disputes on user stories that seem hopeless 18:45:45 mailing-lists-- 18:45:47 mailing-lists has -1 karma 18:45:55 who just spoke? 18:46:16