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Social Web Working Group Teleconference


17 Mar 2015


See also: [IRC log](








AdamB, AnnB, cwebber2


- [Topics](#agenda)

   1.  [ActivityStreams 2.0](#item01)
   2.  [Microformats](#item02)
   3.  [issue-21](#item03)
   4.  [Social Web API](#item04)

- [Summary of Action Items](#ActionSummary) - [Summary of Resolutions](#ResolutionSummary)

  • * * * *

\<aaronpk\> Zakim has joined the room

\<AdamB\> scribe: AdamB

Ann Bassetti (AnnB) - from Boeing, also chair social interest group

Randal Leads - From organization Hypothesis, from the Annotations WG

\<aaronpk\> Aaron Parecki

\<Arnaud\> yes, you should

Benjamin Young - from hypothesis as well

Frederick Hirsch (fjh) -individual, co-chair of annotation wg and device api wg

Jessica Tallon - from media goblin, implementing federation

Chris Webber - from media goblin

Matt Lee - creative commons, from gnu social projects

\<mattl\> mattl is me :)

Amy - phd student from Univ Edinburgh

Arnaud - chair of social wg, part of the IBM Open Standards group

\<tilgovi\> \<-- Randall Leeds (Hypothesis)

Ben Roberts - from indie web group

\<sandro\> Sandro Hawke, W3C & MIT Crosscloud Projects

\<ben\_thatmust\_\> made it!

Arnaud: looking at the list we are still missing some people

\<Arnaud\> anyone on the phone?

\<Arnaud\> anyone who can hear?

\<elf-pavlik\> i keep reconnecting but Zakim bridge doesn't talk

\<elf-pavlik\> no sound at all, also no welcome message asking to dial code after connecting via SIP

\<Arnaud\> we're testing the phone

\<Arnaud\> who's on the phone?

\<elf-pavlik\> i could still enter the room 7025\#

\<aaronpk\> elf-pavlik: you mean 7625?

\<sandro\> "SOCL"

\<elf-pavlik\> yes :)

\<elf-pavlik\> sandro, did voice work for you?

\<sandro\> yes

\<Loqi\> Mlee14 made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

we are working on technical difficulties in the room

\<elf-pavlik\> maybe we can just try <> ?

\<mattl\> trying that now

\<mattl\> getting a chromebook set up

\<elf-pavlik\> mattl++

\<Loqi\> mattl has 5 karma

Arnaud: talking about the agenda ...setup a straw man to get us started ... can get started with AS this morning\

... tomorrow at the end left it open so we can fill it in with what we

think would be good to do

\<aaronpk\> <>

Arnaud: people have been adding to the agenda which is good\

... there are no way we can address all the items that has been added

to AS in the time allocated today\

... we can discuss which ones are more important to talk about than

others, maybe things that are more ready to discuss and can take advantage of the f2f meeting

\<elf-pavlik\> cool! can hear now something :)

tantek: probably want james for the AS conversation

Arnaud: AS seems it is potentially our first victory

\<sandro\> bblfish, can you hear on Zakim? Elf can't. We also are at

Arnaud: so in terms of w3c process, we have AS is a spec that has been published for a while and we need to focus on getting it to CR

\<bblfish\> I can hear

Arnaud: for the others its not as clear\

... we need to take advantage of meeting to get far as possible\
... the ceo has been putting more pressure on the working groups

delivering on time

\<bblfish\> I heard better on zakim

Arnaud: so as chairs we are responsible for keeping the working group on track so when time starts slipping by we need to consider cutting features down

\<aaronpk\> bblfish: can you mute?

Arnaud: just like any other software shipping

\<bblfish\> took time to hear the mute

Arnaud: so we need to keep this in mind so we can do what we can to ship\

... it may not be what we want but it's still good

\<aaronpk\> bblfish: zakim is still active so feel free to dial in and listen that way if you want

Arnaud: we need to seriously think about that. so i would really like we have a clear understanding of what is left to AS to ship it\

... would be good do then do that for the social api as well

\<Loqi\> harry: tantek left you a message on 3/15 at 10:42am: I've updated the agenda with explicit items to discuss proposed items, chair/staff topics, and clustered all other items as proposed to make their status mor7B��ear. Please review: <> <>

\<bblfish\> hi, but I think sound may be better on zakim

Arnaud: we've been through a lot of work on it e.g. the user stories ... so we need to start narrowing down the things to work to get to a path that will get us somewhere\

... have to bite the bullet and do something\
... again, seems like AS is the lowest hanging fruit and if we can

demonstrate some success will help with w3c management

\<harry\> +1 focus on AS2

tantek: want to underscore what Arnaud said, especially shipping and cutting feature

\<Loqi\> Pelf made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

tantek: we've tried to get things done but we've failed to make any date so far\

... we need to ship something in order to keep our schedule that was

committed too\

... while we are trying to get AS to CR we should try to propose as

minimal steps as possible to get social api and federation out the door

\<tantek\> Evan enters the room

\<bblfish\> anyway, nice to see people's face even if very far away

\<Loqi\> AnnBassetti: rhiaro left you a message on 1/15 at 2:03pm: Try - improvements/bug reports welcome

fjh: i think what you are saying makes sense, question on whether we can still add to vocabulary, for example adding annotation action\

... i'm assuming you could cycle vocabularies pretty quickly\
... annotation as an action

\<elf-pavlik\> I understood, we can update Vocabulary much easier than change Core

tantek: there are active impl of AS\

... some are previous version of is, not clear how quickly they may

move to the next version\

... at exiting CR things have to be marked as implemented\
... we haven't labeled anything out of scope yet

\<aaronpk\> there's some neat experimental electronic music happening in bblfish's room

\<bblfish\> trying to understand what channel one is hearing better on

Harry: i would hold out to CR phase which would make some people really happy, but to me the goal of the wg is to maximize the conferment impl\

... so i would say don't worry about testing right now\
... we could always re-edit and the w3c process is changing to simplify


... it is changing so you can go back and edit things

AnnBassetti: in terms of choosing things to happen, is the intention to vote early and often\

... to establish an early set of things to do ?

\<harry\> See the great work done here for how we are simplifying W3C process: <>

tantek: that is one method we can chose to get things out the door, and i am in favor of doing that

\<Zakim\> tantek, you wanted to clarify entering vs. exiting CR

AnnBassetti: yeah thats what i'm asking, is that what the group would like to do?

\<harry\> I'd rather rush to see implementation experience :)

tantek: harry you mentioned rushing to CR. there is a diff between entering CR and exiting CR. we can enter whenever we want and that is when we think the spec is detail enough

\<AnnBassetti\> my fear is, if we try to do it all, at the beginning, we'll never get there

tantek: exiting CR is different, where we as a group have more flexibility where we will have to make more judgement calls for the group\

... we can give it more CR time for tests etc

\<harry\> However, you can implement out of Working Drafts, that's common in many Working Groups - and we can start getting interop in Working Drafts, that's what most successful WGs do nowdays.

\<AnnBassetti\> seems like it's better to commit to some initial stuff, get it done, then quickly jump on the next set

tantek: the risk of rushing it through we might have to drop features in order to get to exit\

... i'm in favor of an aggressive CR schedule

\<harry\> when success = number of interopable implementations (ideally with real users , real active open source implementations, and real products)

\<harry\> To be precise, once you exit CR you can't really change the spec easily, although we are working on changing that in terms of W3C process.

eprodom: my question is somewhat about the process, in terms of data serialization what are we looking for? parsers?\

... are there meaning test that we do or is it we say you can do this

with a json-ld parser, ok then done

sandro: think we base it off the community

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

\<harry\> See here:

\<harry\> <>

tantek: there is some experience in w3c in this. references xml history

\<harry\> For exiting and revising candidate rec.

\<harry\> (which is why we got HTML5!)

\<elf-pavlik\> XHTML 1.1 ?

tantek: there are lot of xml parsers out there so obvious these are compliant but turned out that wasn't true

\<bblfish\> I am for testing

tantek: we should not play that approach in this group. just because its based on an underlying technology doesn't mean it's compliant to the spec\

... implementors get to a point and say, well how do i know that i'm

compliant to section 2.4.6 ?\

... needs to be a test to prove it out

eprodom: so would a way for us to satisfy this, the testing and implementation concepts, is a way for us to move forward this is n many documents and these are valid and these ones are not and your implemetnation can parse them and figure that out?\

... mock AS documents to drive the test?

sandro: probably need more, may not be enough

tantek: if you can't figure out a test to figure out the results of two different features then you must not need them both

\<harry\> People may want to look at this in terms of helping 'hand checking' if there is browser output that it can detect: <>

Arnaud: guess we can say we have started the conversation about AS

\<harry\> Also, look at our testing initiative: <>

Arnaud: first evan, we have to figure that out, there are no hard and fast rules in the w3c\

... the w3c has moved to having test suite etc

\<harry\> <>

Arnaud: one thing that is not up to us is the criteria to actually enter CR. there used to be a last call step which happened when all your issues have been closed.\

... we are telling the world we think we are done\
... then had to go through the disposition of the comments from the

public, then after that you could go to CR.

\<harry\> my notes about links to the 'current state of testing' is in IRC, and has been enabled to the list

Arnaud: the w3c has gotten rid of the last call step\

... we just did this with the LDP group\
... have to show the "director" yes we reached out to the world and

published a spec that was stable and we've properly responded to comments\

... its good to have a test suite which is kind of expected now and

typically have a link to the test suite from the draft so that people can find it easily

\<harry\> We now have a nice github process for testing, although many WGs don't know about it.

\<harry\> See above links

Arnaud: doesn't have to be final so that people can see it and "stuff"\

... and have some frameworks that can collect the results of the test

\<harry\> It will at least be relevant to the API, although some of the more behavioral testing may be tricky as its optimized for browser APIs

\<tantek\> test -\> implementation report per implementation -\> see which features have 2+ implementations that pass all tests for that feature

Arnaud: we can raise the bar and ask the full implementation if we wanted\

... we need to meet all of that so for the exit we can go to w3c and

have this proof\

... in the w3c process there is a feature called 'feature at risk'\
... we can mark some that way and if we are not meeting them we can

simply remove them and procede\

... if we don't do that we have to go back and republish a spec in CR


... anything that changes conformance you have to republish\
... it is a great way to provide some safety valves in the spec

\<jasnell\_\> can see you all but unable to hear anything


\<tantek\> we can hear bblfish on Zakim

henry: thank for that review, it was a good one.\

... on the implementations I think we need to make sure we have the

archticture right so it can grow as the space grows

\<Arnaud\> jasnell we're both on and zakim

henry: at that point want to start with really basic thing because if we do it right can later do more complicated things

\<Zakim\> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss we need more AS2.0 examples and we could use them in our tests

\<tantek\> we can hear elf-pavlik on Talky

elf: for testing i think we need come up with examples\

... and also use test to verify that the examples show usage of the


\<eprodrom\> +1

elf: to verify the expected functionality

eprodrom: agrees and there are some great examples in the stories\

... maybe something along, here is an example and show me the actor in

that example\

... but we do have a large set of examples to start with but not a lot

of counter examples

fjh: thinking about what tantek said, i'm wondering what the implications of that

\<elf-pavlik\> should we make ACTION to write 'counter examples' ?

\<fjh\> <>

\<eprodrom\> <>

fjh: so under object have all of these properties\

... assuming other apps will come up with new types of things you can

anticipate everything

\<harry\> If a vocabulary item isn't used, I support removing it from spec

\<harry\> We can always put more experimental vocabulary stuff in an IG "Extended Vocabulary" note.

tantek: fundamental point is that if there is a feature in the spec then we as a group believe that implementors must implement it\

... unless it is marked optional\
... if so we are obligated to provide a test

\<harry\> However, this does not mean every implementation should test \*every\* feature, but that each feature should have at least two implementations

fjh: let me be concrete in a diff way, say for example the post action, do you need a full blog platform to do that

\<jasnell\_\> quick note: the spec doesn't say anything about what these various objects SHOULD \*do\*. It just says what those things \*are\*. There are no conformance requirements beyond syntax

tantek: so it depends on what the spec says

fjh: so for annotations we'd have to be very careful

tantek: if you can't verify the feature you are not done with the spec

Arnaud: we have to be careful when it comes to vocabulary

\<elf-pavlik\> issue-16

\<trackbot\> issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

eprodrom: i think writing blog software is too far us initially\

... my point of view somethign that could generate streams based on


... if you know X generated some content at this time and you generated

that based on the AS 2.0 spec. that seems like enough and shoudl test the data serialization etc without worrying about other things like stuff required for blogging softtware

\<Zakim\> tantek, you wanted to say why everything is at risk by default: absent evidence (test + implementation report), we don't know if anything is implemented. otherwise we have to do

eprodrom: which is not important for us

tantek: this is why i mentioned everything should be marked at risk by default

\<harry\> I actually prefer to implement in Working Draft, but if people want to make these more painful in terms of rushing to CR, power to the people.

\<harry\> The key is to implement early and get feedback to the Working Group

tantek: if we don't mark feature as at risk we are expecting implementors to implement. but if we actually did that don't think it would be looked on as favorable

\<harry\> and not put features you don't actually want and plan to implement in the spec

tantek: if you want something to be required and not at risk it is your burden of proof for that\

... but that is the challenge that should be required then ship it\
... the sooner we have a test suite framework and the sooner people can

start submitting tests

\<elf-pavlik\> issue-8

\<trackbot\> issue-8 -- Test suite for activity streams 2.0 -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

tantek: and issues are good candidate for tests

\<tantek\> harry, I expect implementers to be attempting implementing ASAP to give feedback

tantek: and can tell you from his experience that when WGs don't do that it holds things up\

... so i really encourage that we do start on the test suite\
... the test needs to prove the test but the expected result as well

bblfish: this is really interesting stuff, test suites don't test everything

\<bblfish\> issue-19

\<trackbot\> issue-19 -- WG communication channel explosion -- raised

\<trackbot\> <>

\<tantek\> actually, the test suite IS expected to test every feature in the spec

bblfish: i propose we use issue-19 would be able to use this system to communicate within this group without using email

\<elf-pavlik\> \#selfdogfood :D

eprodom: is that one of our goals for this WG that AS should be used to replace email?

bblfish: i was just going little bit further

\<harry\> That email use-case was missing from the user-stories I think

\<elf-pavlik\> action-45

\<trackbot\> action-45 -- Henry Story to Testing Activity Streams 2.0: explore ontology based testing -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN

\<trackbot\> <>

cwebber: very first part of this conversation was about AS test, what would those test look like\

... AS don't really do anything until we start doing something with

them ... like in the social api\

... what would the test be, is it just like changing an in memory db?

arnaud: would like to prompt james to answer that

harry: there are diff ways to test functionality .. some of teh tradiditional test suites in the w3c may not apply but there are things like selinium etc\

... practical step might be to have a place to put tests

\<tantek\> I disagree that AS requires API to test

\<sandro\> +1 tantek

\<harry\> I mean it's obvious just parsing JSON-LD is nonsense as a test

\<harry\> you actually have to \*do\* something

\<cwebber2\> right

\<jasnell\_\> AS2 currently is JUST a vocabulary. It only describes events and does not specify any kind of conformance beyond syntax. So the key question is: do we need to specify conformance requirements beyond syntax?

\<jasnell\_\> this is the processing model question that Erik keeps raising

\<tantek\> Evan, from this spec? <>

\<harry\> The issue is that the output isn't uniform likely (i.e. it will change the state of some JS somewhere else)

\<harry\> in terms of success

\<tantek\> jasnell\_: yes we need more for conformance

\<cwebber2\> tantek: I'd be happy to see that AS \*doesn't\* need the API to do tests

\<tantek\> purely sloshing terms / syntax around is not really interesting, nor does it justify the diversity/complexity of the current specs

\<cwebber2\> tantek: I was just trying to figure out what it would look like without it :)

\<harry\> I am personally having trouble imagining how we will test this as just a data format, but I imagine it might be possible.

\<tantek\> cwebber2, there's a lot of history here with feeds publishing/consuming

\<elf-pavlik\> Arnaud++

\<Loqi\> Arnaud has 6 karma

\<bblfish\> I think there are three level of tests: one for each spec, and one integration test suite

\<tantek\> we can hear jasnell\_ on Zakim

\<harry\> I am against 'ontology'-based testing as the \*only\* tests although I'm happy for people to do that.

\<harry\> I've never seen reasoners been used in real-world applications

\<AdamB\_\> jasnell: up to this point the format has always been about describing the event and not specifyingwhat you should do with it

\<AdamB\_\> ... even back in AS 1.0

\<elf-pavlik\> issue-12

\<trackbot\> issue-12 -- Action Types Structure and Processing Model -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

\<AdamB\_\> ... i know this is a point that erik has raised a number of times

\<harry\> I think if you go up to an ordinary web developer and say 'Hey, run this RDF-based reasoner to see if you are compliant' you are going to get blank stares

\<AdamB\_\> ... in order for us to have meaning test, or even a like activity, we are going to have to define what you are to do with it

\<AdamB\_\> ... in order for us to take that additional step with that

\<harry\> I think for people that can run a reasoner, they should and that should be specified, but that should not be the only tests.

\<eprodrom\> This is what the API should do

\<AdamB\_\> ... but do we want to assign actual behaviors to those then we probably need to simplify

\<Zakim\> tantek, you wanted to answer cwebber2's question about how do we test something in AS

\<eprodrom\> "When a user posts a LikeAction, the object goes into their 'liked things' collection, and the user goes into the collection of 'people who like this' for the object"

\<harry\> **ACTION:** harry to set-up a github for AS2.0 testing (whatever that ends up being, we'll need a github!) [recorded in [1]](])

\<trackbot\> Created ACTION-48 - Set-up a github for as2.0 testing (whatever that ends up being, we'll need a github!) [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-24].

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: james i think you identified some pretty core issues that i think we need to record, which is every key action in AS needs to provide ????

\<cwebber2\> harry: ++ re: RDF-based resoner blank stares :)

\<AdamB\_\> ... second issue is there is a lot in the spec and it's not clear we have implementor interest in doing something with everything in the spec so we need to gather that in some way

\<AdamB\_\> .. is that a reasonable characteristic of the two concerns?

\<AdamB\_\> james: yes

\<AdamB\_\> jasnell: i documented uses case but we have no real data on actual usages of them

\<bblfish\> The API was just GET

\<bblfish\> which is an API

\<jasnell\_\> The Atom Feed Validator (which focused on syntax only) was critical to ensuring interop among feeds

\<AdamB\_\> ISSUE: need to get data on implementor interest on specific features of the AS spec

\<trackbot\> Created ISSUE-22 - Need to get data on implementor interest on specific features of the as spec. Please complete additional details at \<<>\>.

\<harry\> +1 a validator, but I would like to make sure also that things 'happen' in terms of actual activities

\<bblfish\> Mhh, there may be one simple test: that links link to resources that match the type that the link says they should have

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: are the readers processing the information as we would expect

\<cwebber2\> I guess I don't have a concept of what "processing model" as a test here means :)

\<AdamB\_\> ... if we need to put more language in the spec then lets do that

\<harry\> are they "processing" it in terms of the 'processing model of the spec' and then 'does it do something' after the processing

\<harry\> I think the tricky bit is the 'does it do something'

\<AdamB\_\> cwebber and tantek discussing question about testing

\<harry\> I think the RDF(S) reasoning is useful in terms of possible 'processing model' but we need to be explicit about this in the spec due to earlier 'blank stares' comment. An implementer should read the spec and write an implementation.

\<AdamB\_\> cwebber: i'm not clear on what it means in the processing model

\<AdamB\_\> ... what is it checking for

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: it is good to start with a use case

\<harry\> Without really knowing or caring about RDF.

\<harry\> (although if they end up using RDF power, power to the people!)

\<AdamB\_\> ... the spec needs to say if you consume one of "these" then you need to do "this"

\<AdamB\_\> eprodom: the tough part of of AS 2.0 is there are 2 usages, one use is the logging format

\<AdamB\_\> ... the other use is as a command language. where evan wants to tell his system 'evan posts a note'

\<AdamB\_\> ... those are 2 different things

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: it is great to specify both of those in the spec

\<bblfish\> oops sorry

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: if you look at other specs like html, they have different classes of user agents

\<bblfish\> just people walking around

\<AdamB\_\> cwebber: didn't realize until eprodrom mentioned the logging vs the command of AS

\<cwebber2\> yes re: the logging format is one use, the other thing as a command language, I think the thing is that testing the command language is that it \*does\* things, and it look, that brings a lot of clarity to my confusion :)

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: could be argued there is a little mini api in the AS spec

\<AdamB\_\> ... here is how it works as a command api

\<AdamB\_\> .. the social api goes far beyond the command language

\<AdamB\_\> ... maybe the social api has a crud

\<harry\> Yes the API might end up being pretty simple GET/POST (CRUD) with some "URL template" structure that maps to the vocabulary in some sensible manner.

\<harry\> I think that's on the table for this afternoon.

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: the key is to document the multiple possibilities .. we don't leave it open ended

\<Zakim\> sandro, you wanted to answer Chris: you just leave that bit agnostic

\<AdamB\_\> sandro: re: how do we test this without having that. the answer is we don't care about that, we are agnostic about that

\<AdamB\_\> .... you can scaffold it together how ever you want

\<Zakim\> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss issue-12 Action Types Structure and Processing Model

\<bblfish\> well we can assume a minimal API already: HTTP no?

\<AdamB\_\> elf-pavlik: would like to note issue-12

\<elf-pavlik\> issue-12

\<trackbot\> issue-12 -- Action Types Structure and Processing Model -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> issue-4

\<trackbot\> issue-4 -- Do we rely on explicit typing or support implicit typing based on explicit property names? -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

\<AdamB\_\> ... would also like to bring up querying the data

\<AdamB\_\> ... to query for AS data

      1. ActivityStreams 2.0 {#item01}

\<harry\> since that is where we obviously are

\<AdamB\_\> eprodom: i would propose that for AS 2.0 we only test it in it's logging capacity. in understanding as what has already happened

\<jasnell\_\> +1 to evan's point.

\<AdamB\_\> ... it might make some of the problem easier to test. can defer to the social api testing for the semantics of using AS as a command language or just leave it out entirely

\<cwebber2\> I hope I didn't drag that out, but clarifying this has been really helpful to me

\<tantek\> +1 AS as feeds / consuming for tests first, command language later

\<AdamB\_\> ... seems to me that the process of testing as command language is too much to bite off

\<AdamB\_\> ... guessing low 100s for test cases. take the examples, parse out the properties etc

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: it also makes it easy for the spec

\<bblfish\> One could for example test things: a client follows links, and should get doing this what it expects to get

\<cwebber2\> so it seems that doing the activitystreams as logging, then transitioning towards activitystreams as a command language could be helping us moving towards the api test

\<cwebber2\> anyway :)

\<tantek\> btw anyone that thinks testing is "easy" is requested to provide URLs to tests :)

\<cwebber2\> :)

\<AdamB\_\> Arnaud: lets try to close the topic for now. we have plenty of other things to cover

\<AdamB\_\> ... the question is, who is going to take the lead on getting some sort of framework for getting test suite setup etc

\<AdamB\_\> ... how do we make progress on this

\<AdamB\_\> ... we need volunteers

\<bblfish\> I can help with the ontology testing part.

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: is anybody producing an AS accordance to the spec

\<jasnell\_\> it's a customer implementation

\<harry\> So we need some open-source, open web implementations :)

\<AdamB\_\> jasnell: they have one customer that is doing this but can't provide a public URL

\<bblfish\> unmute bblfish

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: is anybody doing this on the web

\<harry\> Sounds like a job for IndieWeb Camp :)

\<elf-pavlik\> tantek++

\<jasnell\_\> <>

\<Loqi\> tantek has 165 karma

\<AdamB\_\> tantek: even seeing an example on the web

\<AdamB\_\> ... would be a great start

\<eprodrom\> <>

\<AdamB\_\> ... so before we jump ahead to 'how do we create a test framework' i say we get 1 example of the AS 2.0 spec

\<AdamB\_\> jasnell: it parses the activity stream from github, its rudimentary

\<tantek\> +1 for HTTP GET as minimal API!

\<elf-pavlik\> **ACTION:** pelf to Publish AS2.0 data on one's own website [recorded in [2]](])

\<trackbot\> Created ACTION-49 - Publish as2.0 data on one's own website [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-03-24].

\<elf-pavlik\> o/

\<jasnell\_\> \\me raises hand

\<AdamB\_\> Arnaud: let me ask who is actually planning to implement AS?

\<AdamB\_\> ... so a lot of people are going to do it, so how are you guys going to test it ?

\<jasnell\_\> sigh.. didn't mean to add myself to the queue

\<bblfish\> +1 I need to implement my blog

\<jasnell\_\> fjh: it's a simple node app. it receives hook notifications from github and converts the events into AS2 objects stored in a cloudant db

\<harry\> speaking of work, let's try to solve the rest of the AS2 issues

\<tantek\> jasnell++ for providing a live AS2 stream for viewing!

\<Loqi\> jasnell has 7 karma

bblfish: if you are publishing AS 2 and there is no client that is reading it out there, it would be extremely useful to have translators for previous versions

\<harry\> GRDDL is a dead spec no one in their right mind should use

\<harry\> BTW

\<tantek\> indeed

\<Zakim\> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss publishing my data using or AS2.0 dilema

\<harry\> it depends on @profile which was rightfully deprecated by HTML5

\<bblfish\> me said: something like GRDDL

\<harry\> and depends on your web-page being valid XML

\<harry\> good luck with reviving XHTML.

elf-pavlik: i just wanted to mention that i started to publishing my information on my website and using AS

\<bblfish\> the main point is that there is a lot of RSS out there and Atom

\<harry\> However, yes, more power to shims to move older formats to AS2

\<bblfish\> so that means that any blog engine has to publish these other formats too

\<harry\> would actually be useful to have an AS1-\>AS2 converter

\<harry\> or from other widespread vocabularies - there are probably things in RDF space as well that could be converted over

\<bblfish\> because we're not coming out of the blue here

eprodom: i will volunteer to extract the examples from the main documents, pick properties and put together a test for those exmaples


\<bblfish\> this has a 15 year history

\<eprodrom\> <>

\<tantek\> bblfish: not at all - indieweb sites work peer to peer without any RSS or Atom

eprodom: probably use testanything to do so

\<elf-pavlik\> harry, e.g. <>

\<bblfish\> is there only IndieWeb on the web?

\<harry\> I also think a microformat-\>AS2 converter would be quite cool

eprodom: so could task js vs ruby library to test

\<Zakim\> aaronpk, you wanted to discuss my experience in "testing" microformats publishing/consuming

\<elf-pavlik\> harry++ microformat-\> AS2 convereter

\<Loqi\> harry has 4 karma

\<tantek\> it's up to individual sites, if you have a use-case for supporting legacy feed formats, you can do so on your site. it's just not required for interop

\<harry\> Or if there are any RDFa/microdata compatibile sites, converting them over automagically to AS2.0 would be great

aaronpk: was going to say back on the how do we test, problem i'm having with microformats ... until machines start consuming i don't know if it's correct

\<harry\> I don't think those would count as 'tests' per se, but would be excellent work to increase adoption and will end up being critical infrastructure

\<bblfish\> well the html5 group did a lot of work on making sure that the extensions they did did not break existing web pages

aaronpk: now that there are readers its been very helpful to have people looking at machine readable markup

\<bblfish\> so harry are you going off the idea that we should ignore the past?

\<Zakim\> tantek, you wanted to also share microformats experience of big difference in "verifying" parsed output, and seeing what specific consuming uses do with it (showing comments,

\<harry\> bblfish, failed technologies should be forgotten.

\<bblfish\> those are failed?

\<harry\> I mean, no-one uses GRDDL

\<harry\> Why would you ask someone to use it?

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> I wonder if a better question is then who is consuming AS2?

\<harry\> It's actually incompatible with existing web technologies and had no uptake

\<harry\> We counted users, it was like 6 people

tantek: i think the experience aaronpk is important. there is a huge difference in UI vs reader etc\

... very different level of testing for finding flaws in specs etc

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> i mean currently consuming

\<cwebber2\> so, Tsyesika and I are planning on doing a proof of implementation

\<harry\> I had a good time learning W3C process by chairing that WG and met some great people, but in terms of a standard it was an epic fail.

\<jasnell\_\> Suggestion: <>

tantek: would caution that just verifying looking at the output will be enough. it is a good first step

\<cwebber2\> Arnaud: but the reason I'm not saying "we are doing this" is because I think we want to prove to ourselves that it's happening :)

\<harry\> It is probably not a good idea to interpret W3C standards as religious documents.

tantek: but just not enough. based on experience with microformats

\<Arnaud\> **ACTION:** eprodom to extract the examples from the main documents, pick properties and put together a test for those exmaples [recorded in [3]](])

\<trackbot\> Error finding 'eprodom'. You can review and register nicknames at \<<>\>.

\<Loqi\> Jsnell made 2 edits to Socialwg/2015-03-17/VocabularyChecklist <>

tantek: all these other issues come up

\<harry\> Its a good idea to make standards that get actual interop and solve problems

\<harry\> The decentralized social networking problem is a hard problem.

\<tantek\> abstract conformance criteria ("parsing") is insufficient, we need to take the use-cases that drove these features and get them added to the spec

bblfish: history of rss is 15 years old, there is really important part of formats to support previous versions\

... where backward compatibility is an important part of the work

ISSUE: look at backward compatibility for AS 2.0

\<trackbot\> Created ISSUE-23 - Look at backward compatibility for as 2.0. Please complete additional details at \<<>\>.

\<jasnell\_\> backwards compatibility with AS1 is already covered by the core spec doc

\<elf-pavlik\> AdamB++

\<eprodrom\> eprodrom

\<Loqi\> AdamB has 5 karma

\<Arnaud\> **ACTION:** eprodrom to extract the examples from the main documents, pick properties and put together a test for those examples [recorded in [4]](])

\<trackbot\> Created ACTION-50 - Extract the examples from the main documents, pick properties and put together a test for those examples [on Evan Prodromou - due 2015-03-24].

fjh: when will we talk about json-ld

\<elf-pavlik\> issue-21

\<trackbot\> issue-21 -- Role of JSON-LD and RDF -- raised

\<trackbot\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> fjh++

\<Loqi\> fjh has 1 karma

Arnaud: there are bunch of issues open, bunch of new issues that we need to look at what to do with

\<elf-pavlik\> i \*clustered\* ISSUEs and ACTIONs on <>

Arnaud: we have limited amount of time so we should discuss prioritizing what we should be talking about

\<harry\> But given interop in previous Social Web efforts has generally failed so its a good start to have a shared goal/understanding there

Arnaud: discussing the agenda and what to do next

\<harry\> <>

\<wseltzer\> [20 min break]

\<elf-pavlik\> tantek, please try not to change nesting in items i proposed!

\<tantek\> elf-pavlik: trying!

\<tantek\> elf-pavlik: saved - check it.

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

\<elf-pavlik\> tantek, looks good! since we discussed testing in depth i removed copy of it from proposed list

\<Loqi\> Pelf made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

\<Loqi\> Jsnell made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17/VocabularyChecklist <>

\<elf-pavlik\> rhiaro, you could aks AnnB about changing IG telecon times ...

\<bblfish\> somehow I think I seem to hear better now on talky

\<AnnB\> I see that note, elf-pavlik and rhiaro

\<AnnB\> sounds like the IG time is not good for you?

\<AnnB\> scribe: AnnB

\<wseltzer\> scribenick: AnnB

hopes everyone will help fill in the scribing ..

Agenda Bashing commences ...

\<elf-pavlik\> <>


elf's link is the static one; tantek's link is the "live" one

\<elf-pavlik\> maybe worth looking at

\<elf-pavlik\> issue-15

\<trackbot\> issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates and efforts -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

\<jasnell\_\> Considering the test suite: One possible approach forward... Define test cases as Stories. Each Story is about a series of Events that have occurred. An implementation ought to have a limited number of ways of encoding that information as output. The output ought to be able to be fed into a test tool. The tester then asks a specific set of questions against each input for the test. For example: Story: "James posted a blog post at 1:23pm pacifi

\<jasnell\_\> c. Arnaud liked the blog post and shared it with Tantek". The types of questions the test tool can ask include, "Who posted a blog post?" "Who liked it?" "Who was it shared with?". If the tool is able to extract the correct answer given the input, then the input can be considered to pass the test. To test consumption, an implementation would be expected to transcribe specific inputs into either HTML or Turtle in such a way that the test tool w

\<jasnell\_\> ould be able to ask the same set of questions and extract the appropriate answers.

W3C team at MIT has lunch together every Tuesday ... and invited us to join them ... we need to get there @noon

\<elf-pavlik\> +1 ISSUE-21

fjh = Frederick Hirsch

fjh: wants to understand json-ld topics, relationship to Annotations WG work

Arnaud to Tantek: there are ++ on agenda list; we only have time for \~1-2 topics

\<elf-pavlik\> topic?

\<Arnaud\> tantek is updating the agenda

\<bblfish\> pretty silent here. Are you meditating?

\<aaronpk\> meditating on the agenda

\<AdamB\> kind of ;)

\<Arnaud\> I just said: tantek is updating the agenda

\<elf-pavlik\> maybe some group hummming ? ;)

\<tantek\> action-26

\<trackbot\> action-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats examples in AS2.0 specs -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN

\<trackbot\> <>

      1. Microformats {#item02}

\<bblfish\> what are the URL you are looking at?

\<elf-pavlik\> bblfish, action-26

\<wseltzer\> [Github Issue 83](

\<elf-pavlik\> it should have all needed info

tantek: I've captured the changes that need to be made in spec, re: Github issue 83

\<bblfish\> <>

pull request 84

\<wseltzer\> <>

trying to focus on key items to fix

patterns of changes are the interesting bit

tantek: in our publishing to date, we're using URLs not URNs\

... for authors\
... I propose we use URLs, because that's the common practice

\<elf-pavlik\> +1 <>

\<harry\> I am kinda waiting for httpRange-14 to make an appearance

\<elf-pavlik\> PR please :) "Use URLs not URNs as examples"

\<tantek\> <>

\<tantek\> <>

\<tantek\> Instead of urn:example:person:martin we should use <> because that reflects current social web publishing and identity practices, e.g. indie sites and sites like Tumblr

\<fjh\> twitter, github

\<AdamB\> +1 on urls intead of urns

\<harry\> Does anyone want to support URN usage in the spec?

\<mattl\> +1

\<Zakim\> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss mapping \*vocabularies\* mf \<-\> AS2.0 <>

\<mattl\> URL

\<harry\> URL

\<aaronpk\> +1 on URL

Arnaud: I suggest we accept this proposal .. but let's have discussion

\<sandro\> +1 but I note there's semantic confusion possible (differentiating between a person and their site)

\<bblfish\> +1 for URLs except that the URL is badly chosen

\<bblfish\> so -1

Arnaud: reminder, we're talking about best practices

\<harry\> I was waiting for httpRange-14 to rear its ugly and confusing head :)

\<cwebber2\> elf-pavlik: can't hear you

\<harry\> Sandro, what's your take?\#?

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

\<harry\> I have lost track of best practice

\<mattl\> -1 of whatever that noise was

\<tantek\> note that I specifically used per modern practices

\<tantek\> <>

\<tantek\> like

\<cwebber2\> mattl: that's the federation borg's assimilation noise

\<harry\> I thought it was the ghost of httpRange-14

\<elf-pavlik\> I see 2 \*distinct\* topics 1) microformats html serialization

\<harry\> a spectre is haunting the social web, the spectre of httpRange-14

\<elf-pavlik\> action-34

\<trackbot\> action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

\<trackbot\> <>

\<bblfish\> I am back

\<elf-pavlik\> 2) microformats \*vocabulary\* (which one could use with JSON-LD) <>

\<elf-pavlik\> 3) formal mapping microformats vocabulary to as2.0 vocabulary e.g. owl:equivalentProperty owl:equivalentClass

bblfish: in ontology .. doesn't matter if it's URL or URN

\<bblfish\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> action-43

\<trackbot\> action-43 -- Pavlik elf to propose \*lightweight\* inference based on RDFa Vocabulary Expansion -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN

\<trackbot\> <>

\<harry\> I'm glad the baby in the background is having the proper reaction.

bblfish: recommends FOAF to identify "person" in various ways\

... already \~10 years of history w FOAF ontology\
... I'm against pattern of specifically how the URL should look

\<cwebber2\> I am fine with having <> in the spec, but explicitly us making the call of deprecating <http://foo.example/user/username/,> I am -1 on

\<cwebber2\> this is just for the example also though right?

\<cwebber2\> sounds like it's being answered :)

\<harry\> After deep analysis on this issue, I determined it didn't matter: <>

evan: clarifies this is only for the examples on AS2.0 document

\<tantek\> thanks cwebber2 that's exactly my intent

\<cwebber2\> tantek: great :)

\<cwebber2\> fine by me then :)

bblfish: still suggests distinguish between XXX and YYY

\<Zakim\> sandro, you wanted to perhaps summarize the debate very tersely

Sandro: trying to help explain bblfish's point\

... long history in SemWeb community\
... this is called HTTP range 14

\<Arnaud\> PROPOSED: change examples to have URLs a la <> instead of URNs

Sandro: I'm personally OK with this example .. but there is a long history with this, and there are people who will complain

tantek reminds this he's only suggesting this for a specific example

\<tantek\> but yes

\<bblfish\> I think there is a confusion

\<Arnaud\> <>

\<tantek\> Tumblr, Blogger, LiveJournal all support just plain URLs

\<fjh\> +1 to URLS

\<bblfish\> +1 for Arnaud's url

\<tantek\> I object to /\#me - no commercial social web site does that

\<tantek\> it is purely academic

\<elf-pavlik\> I use /foo -- HTTP 303 --\> /foo/

\<sandro\> timbl \*is\* planning to join us this afternoon

bigbluehat = Benjamin Young

\<bblfish\> tantek is mistaken, a huge number of foaf files do that

\<elf-pavlik\> can we maybe keep httpRange-14 for tomorrow? (dessert)

\<tantek\> bblfish: no company or popular social website does anything with FOAF in their UI

\<tantek\> so you're mistaken about it being relevant

\<sandro\> harry: I suggest we use best practice for the informative test, examples, ... if people want to use hash-URIs in an appendix... in a spec we should cater to the 99% ... cater to the no-experience web developer

\<bblfish\> It is pretty widely deployed, and commercial web site of course don't do anything with distributed this

\<harry\> I think URNs are in general bad practice for anything on the Web

Bigbluehat: switching from URN to URL actually accommodates the HTTP Range 14 issue

\<sandro\> bigbluehat: using URLs is okay with httpRange-14

\<bblfish\> sandro: it requires a redirect to be ok

\<bblfish\> that is a waste of bandwidth

\<sandro\> +1 agreed, URLs are okay with httpRange-14 BUT Henry's point was about the specific URLs to use

\<harry\> So my proposal is that if people want to use RDF with hash-URLs, they can do so in an appendix or WG note on other syntax

\<sandro\> bblfish, I didn't say that. I think you mean "sandro, "

\<Arnaud\> PROPOSED: change examples to have URLs a la <> instead of URNs

\<bblfish\> +1 Arnaud's proposal

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> +1

\<harry\> +1

\<wseltzer\> +1

\<elf-pavlik\> +1

\<Tsyesika\> +1

\<aaronpk\> +1

\<AdamB\> +1 on proposal

\<sandro\> +1

\<cwebber2\> +1

\<rhiaro\> +1

\<jasnell\_\> +0

\<bblfish\> -1

\<harry\> In fact, an appendix with hash-URLs in Turtle \*could\* be useful.

\<jasnell\_\> it's a copy/replace, not that much work, I just don't see it as a big deal

\<Arnaud\> PROPOSED: change examples to have URLs a la <> instead of URNs

Arnaud -- we're trying to figure out what we can live with

\<tantek\> -1 to any /\#me or anything not popular on the existing social web

,... as chair

\<sandro\> -0 that's not what successful sites do

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> -1 those are not used anywhere

\<mattl\> -1

bblfish: question is, what do these URLs refer to?

\<eprodrom\> -1

\<aaronpk\> -1 even twitter dropped \# in URLs

\<bigbluehat\> fjh: ;)

    • RESOLUTION: change examples to have URLs a la

<> instead of URNs**

\<elf-pavlik\> Arnaud++

\<harry\> Yes, feel empowered to file an formal objection

\<Loqi\> Arnaud has 7 karma

bblfish tries to clarify more about Semantic Web / RDF stuff

\<tantek\> Arnaud: my proposal was to use

Arnaud reins the discussion back in

\<sandro\> Arnaud: I'm sorry Henry, we're going to go forward over your -1. You can file a formal objection if you want.

\<tantek\> <>

\<tantek\> replacing all use of urn:example:person:martin with <>

tantek responds to bblfish that this is documented in Issue 83

\<jasnell\_\> the color of the example url bikeshed is perfectly fine as decided. let's move on

\<harry\> FOAF is not a standard

Sandro: to clarify, none of this goes against RDF .. this will all work.... I can explain that later with bblfish, if that'd help

\<jasnell\_\> there is no normative reference to microformats in the spec

\<elf-pavlik\> how about using microformats \*vocab\* with JSON-LD ?

\<jasnell\_\> the microformats stuff is in non-normative examples only

\<elf-pavlik\> bblfish, please have mercy on us

\<harry\> For record, I think we should mute off topic speakes

\<tilgovi\> Is there any problem with using a URL structure that pleases harry et al more?

\<harry\> The W3M is looking at Microformats

\<sandro\> fjh, ask me at lunch/break if you want

\<harry\> There is an open issue and it's been discussed

bblfish: points out that part of confusion is stuff that aren't standards

\<tilgovi\> It seems to me like this room doesn't particularly care, just that we'd prefer not a URN

\<mattl\> we have 20 minutes left, let's move on.

harry: the issue of non-standards is being looked at by W3C management

\<harry\> For future reference, we should mute off topic speakers

tantek: we need to restrain the discussion to the topics on the agenda

\<jasnell\_\> who is yelling? I doubt yelling is warranted.

\<jasnell\_\> Harry: it's off topic, can we please continue

\<jasnell\_\> please avoid personal comments

\<harry\> bblfish, when you are willing to talk on topic, please unmute yourself.

\<bblfish\> please harry stop being rude

\<harry\> I actually think people who are chronically off-topic should not time to dominate the conversation.

tantek: there are examples inside links and metatags

\<bblfish\> we're still speaking about microformats!

\<harry\> We were discussing domain name examples

tantek: instead of using link tag, use "a HREF"

\<elf-pavlik\> do we need to go into microformats html best practices now?

tantek: instead of metatag use best option

\<Zakim\> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss microformat HTML serialization (less important) vs. microformats \*vocabulary\* (more relevant)

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

\<bblfish\> wseltzer: there were a number of discussions regarding all kinds of things that were cut of because a proposal was made that we cannot discuss non w3c acknolwedged standards

\<tantek\> <>

tantek: if you see a metatag it's probably a mistake, and I've offered alternatives

\<wseltzer\> bblfish: that's not how the chairs are running the meeting

\<wseltzer\> they're not taking "blocking" procedures

\<aaronpk\> tantek: if you see a \<link\> or \<meta\> tag inside a div, it's probably a mistake and does not reflect current publishing practices, and i've offered alternatives instead

\<elf-pavlik\> van we focus on \*vocabulary\* microformats?

\<bblfish\> well some chairs keep flouting all rules

\<bblfish\> see issue-19

\<elf-pavlik\> and possibly use it in JSON-LD

\<bigbluehat\> related: RDFa Primer examples recommend \<link /\> within divs, etc: <>

\<Arnaud\> elf?

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

\<harry\> elf can you type it in IRC?

\<jasnell\_\> the microformats \*examples\* are non-normative. the changes to those are purely editorial. I doubt we need to spend much time on them

\<jasnell\_\> just submit a PR to change those.

\<elf-pavlik\> action-34

\<trackbot\> action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

\<trackbot\> <>

harry: everyone has their favorites syntax .. for the spec, I suggest the foundation should be JSON-LD, with the other syntaxes in "communities"

Sandro: you can already see that in the tabs

\<bblfish\> is there even a microformats to rdf mapping? ( there may be but I don't know )

\<cwebber2\> I am pro-those-tabs

\<bigbluehat\> might be good to consider Drupal's RDFa implementation and their use (or not use) of \<link\> and/or \<meta\> <>

\<harry\> Anyways, I'm not 100% happy with the tab approach, but if people want to keep it, go for it.

\<elf-pavlik\> what about: <>

tantek: I'm concerned about that, to make the meanings consistent

\<elf-pavlik\> vocab not serialization

sandro: will we have machine translatability between these formats?

tantek: I think that's why jasnell did all that hard work

\<cwebber2\> if the doc needs to be clarified to make clear that the other ones are there for clarity, that's fine

jasnell = James Snell, IBM

\<cwebber2\> but making it easy to come in and understad mapping, super great

tantek: microformats are the concrete example I can use to move this forward\

... I'm concerned about

\<bblfish\> tantek is making a good case for clear semantics +1

tantek: about "drift" if we did what Harry proposed

\<fjh\> annotation wg is currently using tabs, for same reasons Tantek mentions, to broaden community and allow clarity

Harry: given that these communities are all active, I can agree

\<harry\> If the communities become inactive, I would recommend removing them.

\<bblfish\> oops sorry

\<bblfish\> :-)

\<aaronpk\> darn

\<elf-pavlik\> shepazu, see examles in <>

bigbluehat: cites drupal 7 and RDFa Primer

\<harry\> My opinion in general is 'alternative syntaxes' are a standardization failure

\<tantek\> jasnell\_: side by side examples will also help with testing

\<harry\> but that's where we are in this space and all communities are all active

\<bblfish\> I am for alternative syntaxes

jasnell: in showing multiple formats I'm trying to help people compare side-by-side

\<tantek\> accomodoating alternative syntaxes seems to be a path forward so let's stick with it

\<sandro\> harry, it's a "suboptimal solution", not a "failure" :)

\<harry\> OK, it's a 'suboptimal' solution :)

jasnell: we don't need to spend a bunch of time on non-normative examples

\<harry\> in fact, they cut and paste non-normative examples

\<elf-pavlik\> we still didn't asnwer what do we do about microformats \*vocabulary\* (not the HTML serialization)

\<fjh\> people sometimes look at the examples first

\<harry\> is the primary way of following specs :)

\<elf-pavlik\> jasnell\_++

\<Loqi\> jasnell\_ has 8 karma

\<harry\> +1 lets go to other issues

\<harry\> tantek, maybe just do a git

\<elf-pavlik\> we got stuck on serialization instead discussing vocab (which one can also use in JSON-LD)

\<harry\> pull request and change the examples

\<tantek\> PROPOSAL: inside \<div\>s in the examples, use \<a href\> instead of \<link\>, and do not use \<meta\> but use proper visible markup instead such as \<img\>, \<time\>, or \<span\>

\<cwebber2\> scribe: cwebber2

\<elf-pavlik\> 0

tantek: here's the examples for the meta issue\

... just to see if there's general support for that\
... the intent is that it will improve the other formats

sandro: not sure I understand enough to know this will be a good idea

tantek: this is a heads up for a pull request hten

\<sandro\> 0 I don't have expertise on Microdata and RDFa to vote on this

\<aaronpk\> +1 since \<meta\> inside anything other than \<head\> seems weird in HTML in general

\<harry\> +1 fix it

\<elf-pavlik\> bblfish, i want to work on <>

\<harry\> I think we discussed testing this morning

bblfish: if there's well defined mappings between microformats and rdf, it it's well defined can't it automatically be tested?

\<harry\> people can make shims

\<harry\> the normative syntax right now is the JSON-LD

tantek: there have been automated things, but it's lossy if it's in RDF, because you don't give all the information to the user

\<harry\> but it would be nice to get informative examples all the same

tantek: it's complicated because you want to give all examples of mapping to the user for microformats/etc

bblfish: this will lead to a problem of extensibility

tantek: extensibility is a separate problem, I will declare it out of scope

\<tantek\> <>

harry: feedback is we need code request

\<jasnell\_\> +1 to whatever microformats changes tantek feels may be needed to make the examples better reflect microformats best practices

sandro: I think that an rdfa expert needs to weigh in

\<harry\> If no RDFa experts exist, then we can drop that syntax, but hopefully someone will step up

tantek: I didn't touch the rdfa example because of that, I want to avoid improving other examples, but make sure we coordinate

Arnaud: I think we need more homework before we can settle this

\<elf-pavlik\> can we discus microformats \*vocab\* and leave non normative serialization for hobbyst? <>

tantek: okay I won't touch other examples, if someone wants to look at it

jasnell\_: I'll wait till you say you're done

tantek: I want to get fixes in incrementally so it can be reviewed, if you can let me know if there are outstanding issues

jasnell\_: keep in mind that only normative format is the json-ld, so any changes that breaks the json-ld serialization, the json-ld one wins

tantek: but examples like the urn stuff

jasnell\_: yes I'll update, as for the microdata/turtle stuff submit pull requests (???)

Arnaud: we're running out of time, and we've barely started scratching this list

\<tantek\> I'll be submitting incremental pull requests to fix the microformats examples a few at a time

harry: I have a proposal we can talk about over lunch, almost all these proposals are some variation are "I'd like to use RDF/etc", but most developers coming here have no idea what rdf is

\<tantek\> jasnell\_: I hope you're able to incrementally accept them

harry: so for anything that requires inference, type heirarchies, etc, we need to write those down

\<jasnell\_\> tantek: yes, but will do so in batches once per week

harry: a like is a kind of action, put heirarchy (??) into the spec

\<jasnell\_\> if you can bundle them up as much as possible, that would be helpful

\<elf-pavlik\> action-43

\<trackbot\> action-43 -- Pavlik elf to propose \*lightweight\* inference based on RDFa Vocabulary Expansion -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN

\<trackbot\> <>

harry: make it explicit in the spec, rdf people can see that, others can just follow the spec

Arnaud: break for lunch?

\<jasnell\_\> hanging up for now

\<jasnell\_\> I won't be able to join tomorrow

\<jasnell\_\> I'd prefer AS2 discussion today

fjh: can we talk about json-ld

\<elf-pavlik\> +1 AS2 today

eprodrom: we have big blocks of tbd

Arnaud: question is how to deal with it

\<jasnell\_\> I will be generally unavailable tomorrow due to conflicting meetings

Arnaud: let's break for an hour

\<harry\> PROPOSAL: The spec should simply make any and all spec-processing fully explicit and not rely on any references to RDF, although people can use RDF-based technologies if they so want to implement the spec.

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 2 edits to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

\<elf-pavlik\> +1

\<dret\> +1 to harry's proposal. clean layering. have a JSON spec with processing model. have another one for those interested in an RDF view. both camps are happy.

\<elf-pavlik\> dret, we just need to make sure we stay aligned with RDF

\<jasnell\_\> elf-pavlik: no I cannot

\<dret\> we only have to make sure if we want to do it that way. the only think we technically HAVE to do per our charter is stay aligned with JSON.

\<elf-pavlik\> dret, but we can't make LinkedData folks happy if we use some other model, while we can keep RDF hidden from people who just want to use JSON

\<bblfish\> the charter is incomprehensible

\<bblfish\> full of holes and has already been changed

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

\<rhiaro\> elf-pavlik I think we're switching to talky beta after lunch

\<rhiaro\> Should be more reliable

\<elf-pavlik\> rhiaro, cool - thx!

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

\<dret\> bblfish, i completely agree that the charter is not well written. but that doesn't imply that we have to switch to RDF as foundation as the only possible way of fixing that. we can. but we don't have to.

\<dret\> elfpavlik, i admire how you focus all your energy on making LinkedData folks happy. please just keep in mind that they are a minority, by far. it may not feel like that inside the w3c bubble, but that's a different story.

\<bblfish\> rdf is just a making explicit of what is implicit in the other formats

\<bblfish\> so it makes things much faster if you work with tools that are well defined

\<bblfish\> Otherwise you're back ot the 2004 Atom Syntax discussions - years of discussion on whether something should be an attribute or an xml element, no way of testing things clearly, and so little achieved, ...

\<wilkie\> rdf is nice. not used by many people, but generally used by the info sciences and meta-data librarians.

\<elf-pavlik\> mattl, hi I don't see you on list of WG participants <>

\<elf-pavlik\> nether IG <>

\<wilkie\> maybe not a thing you want to just \*use\* but something you want to make sure you can support in some way to allow them to use the tools they have developed for defining relationships and graphs

\<elf-pavlik\> mattl, i wonder why you moved your name out of Invited Observers list? <>

\<elf-pavlik\> wilkie, RDF has pretty well defined model and many people use it out in a wild (maybe not so much for social networking, yet)

\<wilkie\> that's what I said!! :D

\<mattl\> elf-pavlik: cause I'm a member. Harry is resolving the issue with systems at w3c... Username conflict or something

\<elf-pavlik\> IMO unless we see strong reasons why not to reuse it, we should not define new paralel model

\<elf-pavlik\> mattl, ok roger!

\<mattl\> Too many W3C accounts maybe.

\<mattl\> mlee14 :/

\<elf-pavlik\> identity crisis? ;)

\<elf-pavlik\> issue-17

\<trackbot\> issue-17 -- Identity, Agent, Person, Persona, Account etc. need clarifications -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

\<bblfish\> are people back?

\<bblfish\> can you hear me now?

\<aaronpk\> we are waiting on talky until Sandro comes back with his laptop

\<aaronpk\> <>

\<rhiaro\> scribenick: rhiaro

\<elf-pavlik\> beta?

\<KevinMarks\> should I phone in then, or await talky?

\<aaronpk\> it does client-server connections for \>3 users so it's not all p2p and taking lots of bandwidth

\<aaronpk\> talky is coming now

\<tantek\> jasnell\_: are you still there? do you want to rejoin the telcon?

\<tantek\> we're back from lunch.

tantek: First item of discussion is whether to keep one or more AS items, because jasnell\_ can't be here tomorrow

\<jasnell\_\> I'm joining now

tantek: The first item specifically requested by Frederick is to summarise the json-ld issue


\<trackbot\> issue-21 -- Role of JSON-LD and RDF -- raised

\<trackbot\> <>

scribe: Specific requests for any other AS items?\

... We're taking very specific targeted AS items for discussion, before

social API\

... So far we're keeping issue-21, json-ld issue\
... Are there any other AS issues anyone would like to spend time on?

\<elf-pavlik\> issue-13 ?

\<trackbot\> issue-13 -- Which activity types are built into AS2, and how are they defined/structured? -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

eprodrom: issue-4 is open\

... implicit typing of AS\
... has been on the queue for about 6 months\
... I'd like to close/remove it


\<trackbot\> issue-4 -- Do we rely on explicit typing or support implicit typing based on explicit property names? -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> action-25

\<trackbot\> action-25 -- Evan Prodromou to Discuss social api functional requirement process with ig -- due 2015-01-13 -- CLOSED

\<trackbot\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> action-35

\<trackbot\> action-35 -- Tantek Çelik to Come up with a simple proposal for implicit typing based on property names -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN

\<trackbot\> <>

tantek: action 35 is related\

... Anything else?

\<elf-pavlik\> tantek, did you see my note there about rdfs:range?

tantek: You can always bring them up tomorrow, this is for while we have jasnell on the phone

\<elf-pavlik\> issue-16 and issue-13 ?

\<elf-pavlik\> dret, \^

tantek: To try to get through more items, if any of the chairs think a discussion is off topic, and nobody disagrees, we're going to move on\

... If someone wants to raise a separate issue, they can do, but if

chairs determine something ot be off topic or a tangent, we're going to declare it and move on\

... Last call or AS items?
      1. issue-21 {#item03}

\<tantek\> issue-21

\<trackbot\> issue-21 -- Role of JSON-LD and RDF -- raised

\<trackbot\> <>

frederick: What I believe is true about JSON-LD with relation to AS2.0. Not sure I understand all the nuances

\<aaronpk\> talky is online at <>

\<elf-pavlik\> aaronpk++

\<Loqi\> aaronpk has 741 karma

frederick: My understanding is that JSON-LD is mandatory for AS2.0, and if there's a context in that document it's mandatory, and you cannot replace the context but you could add to it if you need to

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 2 edits to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

frederick: and if you need to define vocab that's not in AS namespace, you can use your own space but you need to use an array where you use both your vocab and AS vocab when you create your AS item\

... So as far as I understand, JSON-LD is good to use, required, no

problems. The only issue is how you can modify the context.\

... This goes without me really understanding the full issue\
... Maybe someone could summarise the issue?

tantek: can anyone summarise issue-21?

\<cwebber2\> elf-pavlik: ping

elf-pavlik: can you summarise issue-21? (can you hear us?)

bigbluehat: I read eric's article, seems to be an underlying data model question\

... what drives the decision about the model\
... We ran into a little bit of this with annotation wg and string

literal bodies for the body of an annotation, vs resources with identifiers\

... Otherwise there's no way to say more about a body as a string


... But json devs don't want objects, they want strings\
... So currently dealing with that, seems related\
... So would like to hear from elf-pavlik or anyone else about that

\<bblfish\> good blog post: <>

\<Loqi\> it'll be ok

jasnell\_: as I understand it, we have the vocab itself which is defined as an rdf vocab. We also have the syntax, which is JSON-LD

\<bret\> sorry

\<bret\> was having issues

\<bret\> you can mute us if you want

\<sandro\> elf, just use the phone?

jasnell\_: right now with the jsonld syntax, the most that is required for an implementor to read an AS doc properly is the json-ld expansion algorithm\

... there's no link back to that says it has to be rdf\
... you can expand it out with the json-ld algorithm, but still handle

it with json data without having to do any inferencing or additional processing\

... there are several activity types listed, eg a Like is a subclass of

a Response\

... But if I parse an AS JSON-LD document, a like and a respond are two

separate things

\<sandro\> elf, I'll switch back

jasnell\_: That's just json-ld expansion, you can't necessarily tell that they are related to each other\

... So key question is: is inferencing based on the rdf model required

for implementors?

\<elf-pavlik\> action-43

\<trackbot\> action-43 -- Pavlik elf to propose \*lightweight\* inference based on RDFa Vocabulary Expansion -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN

\<trackbot\> <>

jasnell\_: So by parsing an AS doc and getting all the responses, do I have to also get the likes?

\<eprodrom\> Joining the club

jasnell\_: or just things that are explicitly response?

\<harry\> As said before lunch, we should just be explicit in text about inferencing/sub-class/sub-type issues in spec as we can't guarantee everyone will have a RDF(S) inferencing working.

jasnell\_: So that's the key question behind the issue

\<harry\> It makes the spec longer but worked well for HTML5.

jasnell\_: Does someone parsing an AS doc required to do the type inferencing that's included in the rdf vocabulary?

\<Zakim\> tantek, you wanted to discuss developers just want strings vs. dereferencing objects (complexity problem)

tantek: specifically, for the high level question, how much is required of json-ld

\<bblfish\> do you have an example frederick?

tantek: I don't think we should require json-ld, as an implementor\

... The summary point: "developers just want strings" issue is a really

important one\

... Remember who we're designing for\
... For devs to publish and consume this stuff

\<harry\> I think we already agreed to use JSON-LD

\<eprodrom\> Can we say MUST support JSON-LD, MAY support other Linked Data serialization?

tantek: I think requiring json-ld and any kind of inferencing adds complexity, will harm adoption, hinder interop

\<harry\> yes, I think that's kinda what we said already eprodrom

tantek: As compared to existing state of the art in terms of both closed social web apis, and in terms of minimal indieweb efforts\

... which have success with achieving interop purely with parsed json

results from microformats

\<eprodrom\> harry: I think that's a happy medium

tantek: I can see that having json-ld as a nice to have is fine\

... but having it required is bad for the spec and bad for chances of


... So recommend against depending on it

\<harry\> exactly, we can't force people to consume \*everything\*, but we fail as a standards body if we don't say "You MUST support this ONE syntax"

bblfish: This is a complicated question..\

... first, developers in closed systems don't care about interop, json

will do perfectly well\

... when you don't have to follow links from one server to another\
... but that's necessary if you want to make a distributed social web

\<tantek\> I will note that indieweb folks are building a distributed social web, peer to peer, that works with "simply JSON"

bblfish: Also, if you try to build a system where you're mimicking(?) a client to server mode, you lose a lot with just json

\<tantek\> (parsed from microformats)

bblfish: This federated API should be somewhat different\

... LDP seems to mix it in

\<tantek\> thus we've demonstrated you don't need JSONLD for distributed social web across sites & implementations

\<cwebber2\> I am strongly pro-jsonld here

bblfish: it soon starts getting messy

\<cwebber2\> how otherwise will different websites implementing extensions interoperate?

bblfish: RDF is a unified mechanism for creating a global web of data\

... Allowing clients to follow links\
... So not just a minor add on

\<tantek\> with microformats and JSON we also produce links you can follow around, WITHOUT JSONLD

bblfish: If you don't do that, you get what we had in ATOM wg a long time ago

\<tantek\> you don't need JSONLD to get links in JSON

bblfish: RDF comes with a bunch of tools that you can use

\<cwebber2\> how to differentiate between "run" as a verb for joggers, and "run" as a verb for executing a program?

bblfish: You don't need to require a client to have the inferencing tools\

... all lwe're doing is specifying consequences of things\
... eg. there's a relation between a feed and an entry\
... all of these kinds of things are expressed in english, and you can

express in rdf

\<cwebber2\> you could spell out the whole URL for those verbs, but

\<cwebber2\> "Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!

\<cwebber2\> "

bblfish: then you have all the tools you can use to come to various conclusions, like logical flaws\

... so you get a whole bunch of testing tools\
... which is important\
... so rdf as a way of specifying what we're trying to express is good\
... So whether clients are required to do inferencing?

\<aaronpk\> can someone give me the tl;dr version of what bblfish is saying?

bblfish: Imagine if you go to someone who doesn't want to inferencing you just have a bad experience, and can go somewhere else

\<bret\> what happens when incorect data is introduced into that system?

bblfish: you start moving to getting better experiences as clients start to improve with inferencing. Clients who do will have an advantage

\<bret\> does that cut the legs off of inferencing?

harry: The fact of the matter is that there are people who want to use rdf inferencing. There are many devs who have no idea what that means and will not use it.\

... We will not get interop if we require something people will not


... We want everyone to interop\
... \*and\* we want everyone to use the toolset of their choice\
... wehther that is json or rdf

\<bblfish\> not it does not cut the legs of inferencing: because rdf is built so that inferencing just adds information but never makes anything false

harry: to require interop, we have to spell it out in the spec

\<elf-pavlik\> aaronpk, see my note in action-35

\<Arnaud\> +q

harry: If we want to require any kind of inferencing (basically subtyping and subclassing) we just need to make that explicit in the spec

\<aaronpk\> tantek++

harry: People can hand code it, or infer it, or whatever\

... This gets us through the problem\
... However, this is premature optimisation

\<bret\> aaronpk: I'm still looking for a solid counter argument to <> with regards to inferencing and RDF syllogisms

\<bblfish\> had difficulty hearing harry

fjh\_: I think we need to be clear about what our hypothesis

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

fjh\_: I was thinking if you use the jsonld as it is in the document today, it doesn't say anything about inferencing

\<harry\> PROPOSAL: Any inferencing/sub-class/sub-typing that is required for interop should be spelled out explicitly in the spec.

\<Loqi\> tantek has 166 karma

fjh\_: Currently no requirement for inferencing, but presumably you could do it because it's jsonld

\<elf-pavlik\> +1

fjh\_: So I don't see what inferencing has to do with this discussion\

... It's out of scope\
... But if you don't care about it, it has no impact

\<harry\> then, people can use RDF(S) or handcode JS.

fjh\_: So inferencing is irrelevent

\<bigbluehat\> s/<>

fjh\_: So then the question is - json-ld is json ,so not going to really mess with devs - so why wouldn't you just define the context and require it to be there

\<timbl\> What you do in the way of inferebcing is not really relevant to the API, yes.

\<cwebber2\> I agree that the @context doesn't harm those who don't want it

fjh\_: It doesn't harm anyone, but enables things if you want it

\<cwebber2\> strongly

fjh\_: If you don't, not a problem\

... So then we get into what benjamin was saying about string vs


... That can be handled as appropriate\
... So you don't want to add complexity, but I don't see why the

context would do any harm

\<Zakim\> tantek, you wanted to point out that our competition is existing deployed open feeds, e.g. RSS/Atom, and simple silo JSON APIs. Anything that adds complexity above that will

tantek: to be clear, our competition is not a green field. There is already existing work. Existing feeds, RSS, atom, AS 1.0 with json, have been implemented across everal systems\

... Possibly interoperably\
... And also the simple JSON silos

\<harry\> fjh\_, so in terms of what features of the RDF data model you are want/use besides inferencing at Annotations, can you tell us?

\<harry\> Is this just the @context expansion question?

tantek: So whatever the hypothetical advantages of rdf/json-ld, the reality is we have deployed working systems and have developers who know how these work, so they're going to need convincing abou tthe extra complexity\

... The point about a string vs an object - we've had the same problem

with microformats

\<harry\> ah, it's the nested/embedded objects question :)

tantek: We're not going to make progress by arguing from the perspective of accepting architectural baggage\

... Developers are lazy, already have too much to support

\<harry\> My proposal would be let's try to avoid embedded objects unless we can't solve the problem without using them.

tantek: If the simplest version isn't a simple as RSS or atom, I think we've failed and developers will ignore it

\<cwebber2\> but isn't the simplest version more or less that simple anyway

tantek: Everyone should take this to heart\

... If that means we need to come up with a simplified profile, that's


\<bblfish\> I find that developing with good RDF tools makes in fact development much easier

fjh\_: what is it that makes adding context complicated?

\<harry\> That doesn't mean we can't use JSON-LD, it just means that we should try to limit expansion.

tantek: As a consumer, you want to look at as few things as possible and ignore as much as possible

\<harry\> in terms of interop

tantek: You just want to display it to the user or whatever you want to achieve\

... Anyting else we put in, adds more work to dev to dig out info they

want to do something with\

... The more we can say here's a simple flat list of objects, the

easier it is for devs to do what they want

sandro: context is just one more property that they're free to ignore

tantek: yes, we should'nt require them to process it\

... It should be optional

sandro: has anyone been proposing that people have to parse the context?

\<harry\> And \*anything\* required to process should be explicitly.

\<harry\> written in the spec.

tantek: In the spec json-ld required implies different things to different people

\<bigbluehat\> jasnell\_: can you clarify the "JSON-LD is required" point?

\<timbl\> bblfish, when you express how happy you are doing inference, it make s people fea they will be forced to use inferebec engines.

eprodrom: we have examples in rdfa, turtle, json, mf2

sandro: so we're usin gthe same context every time, so you don't need to understand the context unless you're writing extensions

\<bblfish\> oh I do not use inferencing

\<wilkie\> what I want as an implementor is a solid understandable base that has a clear and comprehendable method of extensibility. AS2 with JSON-LD gets you very far toward this.

\<bblfish\> ( only hand crafted inferencing )

eprodrom: json is required means we're going to be using json, so yo ushould be looking for this json. If you'd like to store it as turtle, fine (and here's how), but we're going to be talking json

\<elf-pavlik\> I think you need to just get default language from @context and then you can ingnore it

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> the queue seems to be piling up a little

\<akuckartz\> No stream at <> ?!

sandro: json-ld with a context defined by this group

\<sandro\> evan: yes

\<tantek\> jasnell\_: are you on the phone?

\<cwebber2\> yes, a context defined by this group simplifies things enough so you don't \*have\* to use json-ld stuff unless you want to do extensions

\<tilgovi\> Isn't it simple enough to say: "Here is our default context. If a client doesn't negotiate for JSON-LD, you \_must\_ use this context to give them an appropriate JSON response."

jasnell\_: just to clarify what is in the spec currently

\<cwebber2\> and that I think is A++, great route, would go that route again

jasnell\_: There is a normative json-ld context\

... That right now, the spec assumes that the serialization is json-ld

document compacted using the normative context document

\<eprodrom\> ha ha

jasnell\_: What that does is gives us a very consistent json document which does not require json-ld mechanisms to understand it

\<cwebber2\> AdamB: :)

jasnell\_: Everyone should be doing things in a consistent way when it comes to core vocabulary terms

\<sandro\> +1 jasnell\_: compact form JSON-ld using the normative context, this lets one consume the data without understanding json-ld

\<cwebber2\> AdamB: that's secretly me when I'm on the phone ;)

jasnell\_: But when you are parsing, particularly for extensions, it reqiures an extended context to define the additional pieces\

... So at a minimum, to reliably consume an AS2.0 document, you need to

have the json-ld expansion algorithm

\<harry\> Hmmm

\<elf-pavlik\> +1 those who want to extend can use JSON-LD features

\<bblfish\> ah ok, that makes it clear

jasnell\_: That is currently the only json ld requirement

\<bblfish\> ( what jasnell\_ is saying )

\<sandro\> jasnell\_: but you need to have the expansion algorithm to understand a document with extensions

jasnell\_: If the @context is not there because we have a normative @context document, implement can insert that\

... If they choose to ignore it and just process the json-ld as regular

json, they can do that as well\

... But that would be optional for the implementor

fjh\_: that says what I thought

tantek: that's what I was trying to say

\<Zakim\> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss using microformats vocab with JSON-LD

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

\<sandro\> jasnell\_: but if developers choose to ignore the context they can

tantek: mf off topic for right now, we'll postpone. Is that okay?

\<harry\> So in terms of JSON-LD expansion, it is only required when extensions are used, correct?

\*: no objections

\<bigbluehat\> <>

\<harry\> My guess is that implementation-wise, there will be lots of ignoring of @context amongst non-RDF developers.

bigbluehat: This is what amounts to our resolution to the string body issue (annotations)\

... this is the most reasonable solution from previous discussion\
... We'll have two property options in default @context

\<harry\> So if any interop is required, we need to explicitly require it and not expect end-users to have JSON-LD conformant processing by default.

bigbluehat: one for string literal, one for richer graph\

... that lets yo umake statements about the body\
... People wanted to provided csvs as annotations (which got awkward)\
... So we're saying you can do the string and the object, it's deferred

to how that's expressed in the @context

\<tantek\> interesting, we ended up with a similar solution with microformats JSON - you can get a string, or potentially an object body

bigbluehat: We're providing default context for json-ld. You can just use key names if you're using json

Arnaud: Two things..\

... The first, to do with inferencing - I hope we put that to bed\
... But just information, for LDP we do not depend on inferencing

\<bigbluehat\> tantek: do you have a link to the microformats JSON string/object thing?

Arnaud: That was a design choice

\<jasnell\_\> can we please have a formal proposal on whether or not inferencing is required

Arnaud: We're not going to require clients or servers to do inferencing to understand LDP\

... SO we just have to agree that's what we're doing\
... The other is to do with the cos tof making this json-ld rather than


\<jasnell\_\> specifically.. a proposal that inferencing is not going to be a requirement

Arnaud: From a consumer point of view, if you want to look at it just as json you ignore the context\

... If you know what's in there because of out of band information,

that's okay\

... Higher cost for producer

\<tantek\> bigbluehat: yes - it's in the parsing spec <> and the sample JSON outputs: <>

\<bigbluehat\> tantek: tnx

Arnaud: Becaus enot only do you have to provide context, you also have to make sure you're sending consistent data\

... So higher cost for producer

tantek: which could be a problem

Arnaud: which is why you have to acknowledge that\

... Every json with a @context doesn't just become json-ld\
... We're actually raising the bar for the producer\
... These are the consequeces

timbl: raising the bar in the sense that the @context has to make sense\

... So just clarifying Arnaud, more work on the producers side, you're

talking about having them put on a @context, will that context be a constant piece of text that's produced by this wg?\

... Or do they have to be more careful about the json they use that it

matches the context?

Arnaud: The selling arguement for json-ld is 'just add a context' but there's more than that\

... whether this is significant or not, I leave that to implmeentors

timbl: rules you have to follow in json?

\<elf-pavlik\> re limitations on JSON put by JSON-LD <>

bigbluehat: eg. you can't have lists of lists\

... json-ld can't reference items in lists of lists\
... I may be wrong\
... We ran into some issues with open annotations data model

randall: Ontological coherance of objects\

... The nesting structure of the json has to map to resources\
... i think that's a good thing\
... you're not mixing random properties from different contexts

\<elf-pavlik\> tantek++

timbl: If this group decided they wanted to make json in a particular form, which you might think is an ontological stretch, then you can have a special rdf property to match it to

randall: If the group were to call a certain key part of the standard ontology, producers might have to reshape their data to put a context on it

eprodrom: the bigger problem is more extension types\

... We've defined in our vocabulary a Like activity type

\<AdamB\> we call them bumps instead of likes

eprodrom: and your application decides to call it 'floop' instead of 'like' and there's some subtle semantic difference

\<Loqi\> tantek has 167 karma

\<mattl\> i like the way this guy floops

eprodrom: the question is what burden is on conumsers ... if they get a million likes a day and four floops, will they see floops as likes, or discard them

\<cwebber2\> zaphod, now that's a floop who knows where his towel is

eprodrom: Seems unfair to The idea might be that we put some burden on the consumers, yo uhave to make best efforts to figur eout what that floop is. I fyo ufind out it's a like, you put it in your like bucket\

... Or on producers - if you are producing these, they might get lost

tantek: table this for later

eprodrom: sure

tantek: extensibility is a separate topic

sandro: I don't think so

\<elf-pavlik\> extensibility++

\<fjh\_\> you could alias floop to like in JSON-LD, no?

sandro: do yo uneed a different context for extensions?

\<cwebber2\> +q

sandro: jasnell, is that what you mean?\

... if extensions ar epresent, consumers have to understand json-ld

\<cwebber2\> eprodrom: isn't it true that someone can still do a "floop" or a "fave" outside of json-ld anyway

\<cwebber2\> eprodrom: and it'll be just as annoying

\<Loqi\> extensibility has 1 karma

\<bblfish\> ah

jasnell\_: If I have an extension property floop, I just do key name floop and value 1. The json-ld expansion process will just drop that property without a context

\<bblfish\> ok

jasnell\_: In order to keep that from being dropped and not have to put it in a context, I'd have to make that key name be a URL\

... In that case, it would carry through

\<bblfish\> so one can ask people who write extensions to write them the right way

jasnell\_: If I had an extension property, there is either a very specific way to represent it - as a URL - or declare it in an @context that the extension algorithm can use

tantek: I think this is off topic because nobody is questioning if you can do extensibility with current spec\

... There may be some details, but not relevant to issue in particular\
... That's why I want to close off that avenue of discussion

\<eprodrom\> cwebber2: it'll just be annoying

tantek: Going back to queue

bblfish: I was misunderstood. Most of the rdf tools I use, I don't do any inferencing in client

\<eprodrom\> cwebber2: if in, you posted a "floop" to someone, it wouldn't add the actor to the object's "likes"

\<eprodrom\> etc.

\<harry\> fjh\_, what precise part of the JSON-LD @context expansion algorithm do you need?

bblfish: Do a little of hand aided inferencing, we don't have tools

\<harry\> i.e. do you need the whole algorithm to run?

\<bblfish\> <>

bblfish: But pretty much in the camp of how far can I go with no inferencing\

... So the second thing there is, when people speak about tools, I

think next year the tools are going to be advancing quickly in rdf space\

... what might be difficult for peopel to do now might be easy in a few

months time

\<harry\> Is always possible tools will expand in the future but let's not bet the spec on it.

bblfish: so we shouldn't worry about 'difficulty' of things

\<fjh\_\> harry, personally what I'm concerned about is enabling annotation to work with social web and reasoning when applications can benefit from the combination

\<cwebber2\> eprodrom: maybe the right route is, json-ld or not, assume that if a type is different (even if subtype), you can't expect it works just the same way

\<cwebber2\> so ignore it ;)

\<harry\> OK, so we're not going to require reasoning.

\<elf-pavlik\> can we do - with no extensions just use normative @context and treat it as JSON, if you want to extend you need to follow JSON-LD requirements?

\<harry\> Otherwise than being explicitly listed I htink.

\<harry\> So fjh\_, what part of extensibility do you need?

bblfish: I agree with the extensbility thing. If people want to write extensible json-ld, they should do it the right way. Perhaps that should be part of the spec: if you want to extend, make sure it's rdf so information not lost

\<elf-pavlik\> e.g. make properties URIs

\<harry\> You just want to mix in annotations with a different namespace, right?

\<fjh\_\> right, but we don't want to preclude the benefits of JSON-LD while recognizing tantek's concerns

\<harry\> That's fine, people who like those benefits can use them

bblfish: And then, I don't do any inferencing, having properties such as rdfs: domain, range, etc, is still useful. Not for clients, but for helping you think about what you're doing

\<eprodrom\> Is the wiki down, or it just me?

bblfish: When you're using domains and ranges, it helps to come to consensus much faster. You can see the consequences.

\<eprodrom\> RIght

\<eprodrom\> Right

bblfish: Then you build a system that is extensible, built on good principles, open world assumption

\<jasnell\_\> cannot hear timbl very well

timbl: You have to acknowledge different communities of developers\

... When you make declarations like 'developers want strings', there

are groups who want different things\

... I think json-ld looks like a place that allows rdf people to see an

rdf view, and json people to see a json view, without getting in the way of each other\

... Not everyone wants to inference

\<bblfish\> I did not say how good it is to do inference

timbl: The reason people like json is it happens to match the structure of languages they like

\<bblfish\> I said I don't do inferencing

\<bblfish\> ( for the moment )

timbl: And with RDF, if everything is turtle, you can concatenate everything together like you can't in JSON

\<akuckartz\> Where is the audio? Nobody at <> ?

timbl: There are reasonable reasons for liking both\

... You can do different things with different things\
... RDF has a longer term extensibility story\
... JSON is just easier to use in javascript

\<aaronpk\> akuckartz: <>

timbl: So the answer to this issue... how to close this issue: get a few principles down

\<bblfish\> but yes, 100% agree with timbl that the meshing of data is the most important and simplest use case for rdf

timbl: The idea is we're going to support both communities\

... It's going to be really simple for anyone to read it into an rdf

processor, a json processor, json people can ignore context completely

\<cwebber2\> you are kicking butt on scribing, rhiaro

timbl: If there really are possible misunderstandings about what happens if you ignore hte context they should be exlpained

\<aaronpk\> rhiaro++

timbl: You could have 75% people in the group looking at is a json exercise

\<elf-pavlik\> timbl++

timbl: If you pick a key like foaf:name, thing sthat are reall ywell known in rdf\

... you can have people workin gon the mapping\
... The technique is to use JSON-LD to serve both communities as well

as possible\

... With reading data I think it's going to be as easy as writing

data... dont' know if it will work as well with both communities

\<Loqi\> rhiaro has 23 karma

\<Loqi\> timbl has 2 karma

harry: There is a context for AS2.0

\<tantek\> rhiaro++ for minuting timbl :)

harry: The RDF community will use that context to expand to RDF

\<Loqi\> rhiaro has 24 karma

the JSON community will delete that context

scribe: I'll be really shocked if they don't\

... So our spec accepts that reality. How does that impact you?

\<akuckartz\> aaronpk: thanks!

scribe: From annotations perspective, you're going to put another context in there\

... RDF people will expand that, json people will use it as a string\
... Is there any part of the json-ld algorithm that we need to require

people to process?\

... We should encourage them, but concerned that we can't require that\
... is there anything we should require to to make AS work for json?\
... What should a non rdf json view do to make things work?

fjh\_: My summary so far:\

... There are benefits to json we all know\
... if you care about rdf you get them, if you don't you don't

\<harry\> We will require a @context, but we should be aware that additional processing/constraints will simply not be followed by non-RDF aware developers

fjh\_: it's normative in the spec to have a json-ld expansion algorithm\

... it's normative to have a @context

\<harry\> Thus, we have to explicitly call out anything that is \*super\* important

fjh\_: We agree that you as a revceiver you can ignore the @context if yo udon't care\

... only thing I'm not clear on is whether the context should be there

or not

\<harry\> Otherwise, JSON folks who aren't using a JSON-LD parser (i.e. the vast majority) won't do that processing step.

fjh\_: There will be a @context defined normatively in AS2.0, and a JSON-LD serialization that will be normative

\<harry\> Ah, the media-type

tantek: My understanding: because we've defined the context in the spec, publishers don't actually have to put the context in their AS output

\<harry\> If it's missing the context then we get the context via the media-type

tantek: If it's missing a context, it comes from the spec

\<elf-pavlik\> re media-type <>

fjh\_: If we know there's a reliable context, that's my primary concern

tantek: We need a separate content-type

\<harry\> We do need a media-type/content-type for AS2.0

\<bigbluehat\> seems the "list of lists" problem is still unsolved when converting between JSON-LD to RDF: <>

\<bblfish\> do you need a sperate mime type for clients to know when they are getting AS2 json that is not json-ld?

\<harry\> but we already have that issue and will be registered with IETF once we are done baking spec

tantek: If you recieve a document with that content-type, you know which spec it's deifned by, which tells you default @context

fjh\_: So there's no issue?

tantek: there are other issues, but that is resolved

fjh\_: what is other big issue with json-ld?

\<elf-pavlik\> we have issue for mime type <>

\<harry\> I think the other big issue was requiring inference

\<tantek\> thanks elf-pavlik

eprodrom: With current issue, how do we close it?

cwebber2: seems like everyone agress..

\<sandro\> +1 to fjh\_ 's summary of situation

tantek: did we close enough of your [fjh] questions?

\<harry\> No one is 100% happy but it's important to get the communities having interop.

\<bblfish\> I think for extensions clients that need to read it, could be required to use inferencing

fjh\_: are you able to use json-ld and @context if you want to. I think the answer is yes, that should be possible

harry: if context isn't explicit, it's implicit

fjh\_: So that satisfies me

\<harry\> +1

tantek: since we've resolved the aspects of this issue you've brought it up, we leave the remainder open for this group, but not at expense of the rest of today's agenda

eprodrom: a long term issue that we'll be dealing with\

... If we address AS2.0 as it is, we can defer this

\<wilkie\> I'm very excited for json-ld, proper support for extensibility, and rdf!

fjh\_: we can record that this part of the issue is no longer an issue

\<bblfish\> +1 wilkie

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

tantek: still other aspects to the issue, so can't close it. But can postpone

\<sandro\> issue-21?

\<trackbot\> issue-21 -- Role of JSON-LD and RDF -- raised

\<trackbot\> <>

\<cwebber2\> -q

tantek: Anyone else on the queue has something to add, or we can move on?

\<elf-pavlik\> Content-Type: application/json

\<elf-pavlik\> Link: \<<>\>; rel="<>"; type="application/ld+json"

\<harry\> eprodrom, does explicitly spelling out inference in spec help with \*known\* vocabularies?

Arnaud: Separate issue for whatever is left?\

... And close this?

\<harry\> In terms of unknown vocabularies and extensibility, people will probably just have to use RDF

AnnB: make more explicit issues, one by one

cwebber2: so context thing is resolved, we should close issue

PROPOSAL: Please split issue-21 into sub-issues

PROPSED: Split issue-21 into subissues

PROPOSED: Split issue-21 into subissues

tantek: so no umbrella issue

\<sandro\> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-21 re-affirming we'll use JSON-LD as in the current draft, with a normative context, and let people bring up sub-issues

\<bblfish\> +1

\<elf-pavlik\> +1

\<eprodrom\_\> +1

\<harry\> +1


\<mattl\> +1

\<AdamB\> +1

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> +1

\<wilkie\> +1

\<sandro\> +1

    • RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-21 re-affirming we'll use JSON-LD as in the

current draft, with a normative context, and let people bring up sub-issues**

\<sandro\> close issue-21

\<trackbot\> Closed issue-21.

Arnaud: victory!

sandro: dinner?\

... raise hands

tantek: Issue-4

\<bblfish\> Issue-4?

\<trackbot\> Issue-4 -- Do we rely on explicit typing or support implicit typing based on explicit property names? -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

eprodrom: can we close this? unless tantek wants to complete action-35

\<elf-pavlik\> action-35

\<trackbot\> action-35 -- Tantek Çelik to Come up with a simple proposal for implicit typing based on property names -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN

\<trackbot\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> tantek, did you see my note about rdfs:range?

eprodrom: we'd have to do some serious work to take out explicit typing

tantek: since october we've gained more experience with different types of posts\

... It is working even when we add more types, we don't need explicit


... Data gathered since october f2f says we don't need explicit types

eprodrom: if we're not closing it, we don't need to discuss it

tantek: burden is on me

      1. Social Web API {#item04}

tantek: we have a bunch of stuff to discuss\

... Demos of API candidates showing user stories\
... We just spent several weeks of folks writing user stories, and then

another week of voting, then ben\_thatmustbeme volunteered to go through and cluser user stories by consensus\

... There are a bunch with controversy, and some with consensus


... that's been very helpful\
... What social web means is different to different people\
... User stories has beena good way to constrain that\
... But we want to develop API candidates\
... So we have some time for people to demo implementations of existing


\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> link?

tantek: various, including micropub,, ldp and others\

... For the demos, you demonstrate a user story, not something random\
... And you do so using an implementation of one of the candidates\
... So does anyone have any issues with those constraints?

eprodrom: If we're talking about candidates in terms of what we take to recommendation, demos are great, but would love to see written proposals that say this is what the API standard is, rough overview, this is what will become the document that we edit\

... Either an outline, or a sketch\
... make sense?

tantek: I'm pretty sure all the candidates have documents like that already\

... If you're asking for better summaries, separate request

eprodrom: okay

tantek: part of the reason, there are a lot of proposed candidates, want to use rough consensus and running code filter\

... Some have running code today, some don't\
... let's use that as a way to see what peole have working, and narrow

the field\

... we don't pick one today, but see if there are a couple that we can

choose among, or produce some sort of hybrid or something

\<bret\> rhiaro++ on scribing

\<Loqi\> rhiaro has 25 karma

tantek: so for each one of these demos, people must stick to user stories

eprodrom: are we ruling out proposals that have not been implemented?

tantek: we're starting to narrow the field among what's been proposed\

... if something has been proposed but someone isn't demonstrating it,

don't want to spend a lot of time talking about it\

... We can even have multiple working drafts on the same subject\
... So given those requirements, lets do demos\
... First: aaronpk

aaronpk: Posting a note\

... This is an app running on it's own domain

\<bret\> is there a talky stream?

aaronpk: [micropub]\

... first sign in, like oauth, asking for scope to post

\<KevinMarks\> whats' the talky url?


\<elf-pavlik\> AnnB++

\<Loqi\> AnnB has 9 karma

tantek: if people put URLs of demos into IRC

\<KevinMarks\> it's pretty fuzzy

aaronpk: link \^\

... This is a micropub client\
... I signed in. My website granted this app an access token that the

app can use to post to my site\

... Type a note


aaronpk: tags, location\

... makes a POST request to website using form fields, and access


... Proof of concept (that's why it has debugging info)\
... Shows website response\
... Client knows it worked\
... Link to website where it's posted

\<elf-pavlik\> aaronpk++

\<bret\> elf-pavlik++ thanks for the working link

\<Loqi\> aaronpk has 743 karma

\<Loqi\> elf-pavlik has 11 karma

aaronpk: Site responds to micropub request with location it is posted at\

... Mobile app would do the same, but may want to render post itself.

Could go fetch location of post and do what it wanted

AnnB: so that's user posts a note user story?

aaronpk: yes

(links on agenda)

scribe: Next demo: extensible activity types

\<elf-pavlik\> aaronpk, do you edit and delte it as well?

scribe: Different app, Teacup\

... Different domain, totally unrelated t oQuill\
... Sign in again, same\
... (looks better on phone)\
... Used for tracking food and drink\
... Have been using for several months\
... These are types that only my website and this app know about\
... not in spec\
... experimental post types\
... Same structure of post requests

\<elf-pavlik\> extensibility++

\<Loqi\> extensibility has 2 karma

scribe: \*aaronpk drinks coffee\*\

... Posted coffee with one click, chose from a list\
... No confirmation for this one, more user friendly\
... Can type in things not on list\
... End result on my website is a list\
... Different icons for things\
... these are 'extensible activity types'\
... Next demo: posting a file, specifically a photo\
... could be a video or something else\
... OwnYourGram is separate app again\
... Sign in

\<elf-pavlik\> did aaronpk edit and delete this post?

scribe: For new users, prompts you to attach your instagram\

... Uses instagram as a client for posting photos\
... So any photos you post on instagram does a real time micropub post

to your site

\<tantek\> post from first demo: <>

scribe: \*aaronpk opens instagram on phone, takes photo\*

\<tantek\> post from second demo: <>

\<elf-pavlik\> tantek, does edit and delte work?


\<tantek\> elf-pavlik: which demo?

\<tantek\> post from third demo: <>

\<elf-pavlik\> post post a note and post a file both have edit (replace) and delete part

scribe: Just like a plain text note, same properties, but also multipart encoded file\

... Regular http POST request\
... File is on my server too\
... So instagram can disappear and file will still be there. Instagram

is just transport\

... Could also use private instagram as transport\
... My site supports photos and videos, but not other filetypes\
... Just haven't done that

\<KevinMarks\> I used ownyourgram on android

\<KevinMarks\> <>

tantek: does quill or teacup support updating or deleting?

\<elf-pavlik\> thanks tantek

aaronpk: no, write only\

... but ben's micropub client and sever support edit and delete\
... mine are create only right now

tantek: any more questions?

eprodrom: aaronpk, micropub is about posting new activities\

... things like traversing your social graph and updating profile are

not things it supports?

aaronpk: micropub intentionally doesn't support any reading operations

\<mattl\> Android photo app -- <>

aaronpk: so to read the site, you'd parse the microformats in the html

\<elf-pavlik\> Q: where do we find details about \*extending\* activity types?

aaronpk: micropub is everything you can't do with get requests\

... it wouldn't be a stretch to update profile information, we just

haven't done that yet

eprodrom: so if we were to put together a social api based on micropub, we would assemble it together with read stuff\

... Also about publication technique. What happens if micropub becomes

a w3c standard

\<bblfish\> oops I have to go to another teleconf in 20 minutes

eprodrom: We could stabalise it and make it standard, or we could skip over it

tantek: spectrum of options

\<bblfish\> I have a very short demo for 1 minute

tantek: up to the group. aaronpk is editor of micropub spec, so also what aaronpk wants\

... in terms of what w3c needs, it needs a submission, which is a

defined w3c process, and that document becomes something we work on

eprodrom: the community process around activitystreams is gone or almost entirely gone

tantek: so it made sense for it to find a new home\

... if there's a flourising community, sometimes it doesn't make sense

to fork the spec\

... w3c could normatively reference a spec instead, different


\<elf-pavlik\> micropub spec URL ?

\<bret\> we should use semantic versioning on specs ;) then we can normatively reference a tag of the spec

tantek: We could build social api spec by incorporating by reference, and adding more features

\<bret\> elf-pavlik: for now <>

\<bblfish\> ok, AnnB

tantek: It's a two way dialogue. If there are user stories we want to support, we can suggest adding it to micropub

AnnB: An advantage in corporate world, it's easier for us to use a spec that's endorsed by w3c\

... the more formal it is, the easier it is to use

\<bret\> thats a good point AnnB

tantek: our charter says we're going to produce three things\

... even if one of them says 'go implement this'\
... if someone else already has a spec that satisfies charter\
... that's up for discussion, but that's why we're here

\<elf-pavlik\> Q: how to request support for JSON(-LD) and nested objects?

AnnB: How we anticipate using a lot of this technology is leaning on our vendors/suppliers to say 'use these w3c standards'

\<tantek\> elf - I think the micropub spec says how to make requests / file issues

\<tantek\> please do so there

tantek: Move on to demos

\<AnnB\> in our dreams, our suppliers would listen to us! hehe

\<harry\> Just going to note that we'd like to hear from people about other social sites/projects/companies/products interested in this API

\<bblfish\> <>

\<bret\> elf-pavlik: I would come up with a specific use case that requires nested data and propose that on the wiki and then ping people

\<tantek\> bblfish: which user story will this be?

\<mattl\> bblfish: you're looking at a blank screen.

bblfish: foaf using a smart client

\<bblfish\> <>

\<mattl\> we can't see anything.

\<KevinMarks\> how do we see his demo?

\<bblfish\> <>

\<mattl\> bblfish: one sec, we're plugging a laptop into the projector.

bblfish: Server running LDP\

... Opening an RDF document in browser\
... Returns html and javascript, which fetches rdf, finds out it's a

foaf profile, fetches other profiles\

... click someone, and see their connections\
... which are also foaf profiles, all over the web\
... Can click edit and save\
... Uses http PUT using LDP protocol\
... LDP now has cache too

\<tantek\> this is video playback right? recording from a year ago?

\<aaronpk\> looks like the video was posted today

bblfish: The aim is to show that with javascript following rdf around the web you can create something that looks like facebook. This was done by a couple of engineers who didn't know about rdf\

... Shows it's not difficult to write with the right tools\
... Uses LDP, but you don't need LDP to follow resources around web

\<tantek\> video finished and YouTub started auto-playing something else LOD2?

\<aaronpk\> youtube--

\<Loqi\> youtube has -1 karma

bblfish: Any questions?

\<harry\> is there a live site?

\<KevinMarks\> is there a url that isn't a video?

eprodrom: didn't see activity streaming, was social graph navigation, which is important, but have you thought about activitystreams style interface?

\<KevinMarks\> there was a code dump at some point?

bblfish: a foaf:blog relation could point to an activity stream\

... then find friends' activity streams and aggregate them to a wall

eprodrom: so something like an inbox where all your friends stuff comes to you

\<elf-pavlik\> bblfish++

bblfish: up to client to decide what kind of view to generate

\<Loqi\> bblfish has 3 karma

\<elf-pavlik\> bblfish, URL to your address book?

tantek: lets not design things here

AnnB: Kevin says is there a URL that is not a video

\<tantek\> KevinMarks asks if there is a URL that is not a video

\<KevinMarks\> paste it in thanks

\<harry\> put it in IRC either a live site or a code link

\<bblfish\> <>

bblfish: there's a github

\<bblfish\> <>

tantek: URL where results of demo can be viewed, not just code\

... to view \*what the demo was showing\*

\<tantek\> is there a URL where we can see what the demo was showing?

\<elf-pavlik\> bblfish, doesn't have demo running online

\<AdamB\> question to bblfish, they are looking for a public URL that goes to that working demo

\<elf-pavlik\> to my understanding

\<tantek\> demo was localhost

bblfish: that was localhost

\<elf-pavlik\> NO PUBLIC DEMO

\<harry\> its cool if it's not live yet, just ping us later when that goes up

\<elf-pavlik\> bblfish++

\<Loqi\> bblfish has 4 karma

tantek: next demo, ben\_thatmustbe me, Woodwind as client and Postly as server that supports micropub

\<bblfish\> thanks

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> and

\<bblfish\> really sorry, I have a conf call that I need to go to to raise funds so that I can implement much faster the specs that we are discussion here

\<tantek\> user story: <>

\<bblfish\> will be back in 1 h or less

ben\_thatmustbe: This is an inbox that pulls other people's posts in a feed\

... from their websites\
... I can post a reply directly from in here\
... It directly posts to my site, again with micropub\
... As a note\
... Which has a reply to link, saying what it's a reply to\
... Will show up on Aaron's post in about 5 minutes\
... (delay due to cron job)

\<Loqi\> Eprodrom made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

ben\_thatmustbe: once every 5 minutes, webmention sent to posts I've mentioned

aaronpk: just got the webmention

ben\_thatmustbe: This also allows liking or starring\

... one click posting\
... Like is visible on my site\
... after 5 minutes, aaronpk will recieve webmention and can display

the like however he likes\

... Not pretty yet!\
... And you can unlike\
... Can remove posts via my own site\
... Woodwind has create. My client on my site when I log in has delete\
... \*ben deletes like\*\
... will send another webmention to aaronpk's site to say it's deleted\
... that finishes that user story

\<cwebber2\> so

\<cwebber2\> I can give a demo

\<cwebber2\> of pump/mediagoblin

\<cwebber2\> it'll be very off the cuff :)

AdamB: All likes for us are anonymous\

... Because people are afraid to support maybe politically charged


... Didn't add to user stories

tantek: add to More User Stories page

AdamB: will add

tantek: any other questions?

\<tantek\> AdamB see <>

AnnB: Likes are anonymous but all Posts have your name on\

... Except that there was a situation where people did not want to post

controversial things\

... So had to set up a separate site for anonymous posts

tantek: do any of the current user stories cover those scenarios?

AnnB: not sure, will look

tantek: in general, please fork user stories and add to More page\

... Next demo: ben\_thatmustbe does generic social network client

\<tantek\> <>

ben\_thatmustbe: Wrote own little micropub app\

... Take a photo\
... Add a body

\<jasnell\_\> I'll turn around and pretend I can still see it. Would that help?

ben\_thatmustbe: (using Android device)

\<tantek\> using Android device, running an Apache Cordova app compiled to Android

ben\_thatmustbe: written in html/css/js then compile for android\

... in theory can compile to other things

\<tantek\> and showing it on projector via Photo Booth app

\<KevinMarks\> flip is in the menu at the top on photobooth

ben\_thatmustbe: can choose where server sends it to, including facebook and twitter\

... that's pulled from my site via micropub\
... I ask my site what I support to syndicate to

\<AdamB\> see <>

\<mattl\> no photos since <> happened.

\<Loqi\> Aboyet made 1 edit to Socialwg/Social API/More user stories <>

aaronpk: it's specifically asking 'give me list of synidcation targets'\

... which may not be public\
... you'd have to be able to selectively hide parts of profile if

that's part of profile

ben\_thatmustbe: So, uploading\

... Reload my site\
... \*photo appears\*

\<tantek\> post from that demo: <>

ben\_thatmustbe: any questoins?

tantek: aaronpk is next, two more demos

\<tantek\> please add more demo slots: <>

aaronpk: Monocle, another separate app\

... A reader\
... Sign in, requesting post access as well\
... \*shows photo ben posted in reader\*\
... Going to follow tantek now\
... discovers feeds that are on\
... primary one being what's on his homepage\
... a html/mf feed\
... also found an rss/atom feed\
... click to follow feed\
... at that point it's now processing in the background

\<KevinMarks\> you cna use unmung to handle rss/atom

aaronpk: now reload, see tantek posts\

... can click to see on tantek's site\
... it went from tantek's url, parsed microformats -\> json structure\
... renders in reader\
... That's Following A User user story\
... Also unfollowing

\<jasnell\_\> I have to drop now. might be able to jump back on later

\<AnnB\> bye

\<jasnell\_\> will keep following along on IRC tho

\<AnnB\> thanks

\<elf-pavlik\> jasnell\_, ciao and thanks for e-joining

aaronpk: actually no micropub in that, just microformats\

... want to optionally publish follow\
... Second part is liking a post from reader\
... have action buttons below post\
... uses micropub\
... like appears on site\
... What it doesn't do is save the fact that I liked it in the


... Should show me that I've already liked this post\
... Easy for things liked using Monocle, but if I've liked something

with another app that's harder

tantek: could detect likes from own site

\<harry\> sounds like a fascinating version of the Salmon Protocol issue, likely a bit easier to solve

aaronpk: Monocle stores stuff I'm following

\<Loqi\> Cwebber2 made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

aaronpk: I want to send tantek a notification, as a homepage webmention\

... which you can use to make a list of your followers\
... but I don't always want to share that

\<aaronpk\> <>

\<tantek\> post from that demo \^\^\^

eprodrom: Next demo, Post A Note

\<aaronpk\> yay more implementations

tantek: next demo, cwebber2 and jessica

\<bret\> gotta run ill be back later

\<KevinMarks\> demo url

\<KevinMarks\> ?

cwebber2: combine showing and mediagoblin

\<aaronpk\> [5](

cwebber2: Follows pump api

\<tantek\> <>

\<aaronpk\> <>

cwebber2: Looking at personal timeline\

... You can see recent activities on the side

\<tantek\> shows logged in identica home page with personal reading timeline

cwebber2: Post a note\

... Pumpio reader shows notes posted\
... can post a reply from that too\
... can submit a photo from this too\
... Go to Meanwhile tab, this happens across two activities

\<cwebber2\> <>

\<cwebber2\> <>

cwebber2: First note just submitted to followers, second public\

... Direct messaging in\
... Also in pumpa, interface to social graph. Shows Activities\
... For there are multiple clients\
... Jessica works on a libaray called (?) that makes it easy to build


... For clients

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 2 edits to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

Jessica: at the moment it's mainly developed for clients, but hoping to expand that\

... to do p2p\
... python library\
... Library is pypump,

\<mattl\> cwebber2: liking your own posts again

Jessica: Now to local development instance of mediagoblin\

... Mostly for submitting images, audio, video etc\
... Start a new Pumpa client\
... Authorize using oauth\
... uses same api as\
... can use images submitted with mediagoblin that work for\
... using existing clients\
... Will submit an image right now

\<KevinMarks\> i think i did

Jessica: Right now we have support for API side of things

\<KevinMarks\> I am now hearing everything twice

Jessica: Can do the same thing with pypump

tantek: the pypump demo posted to server? permalink?

cwebber2: will post to server for the record\

... Tsyesika does public post to server\
... using pypump

\<tantek\> <> updated with demos that Chris just did

\<elf-pavlik\> cwebber2++

\<Loqi\> cwebber2 has 13 karma

Tsyesika: posted a note on a public list, so should be able to see it

\<cwebber2\> <>

eprodrom: are there parts of the api not implemented?

Tsyesika: haven't implemented likes or shares yet\

... if you send a share nothing happens

eprodrom: you mentioned web socket interface? it's sloppy in pump\

... Last question, have you tried mediagoblin with any android clients?

Tsyesika: some problems with those

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 3 edits to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

cwebber2: we'll have a summer of code project for making a mediagoblin uplload client

\~ moving rooms alert \~

\<cwebber2\> hopefully we will :)

\<timbl\> Moving to 32-D-507

Moving to D507!

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> rhiaro++ for all that scribing

\<Loqi\> rhiaro has 26 karma

\<elf-pavlik\> rhiaro++

\<Loqi\> rhiaro has 27 karma

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

\<elf-pavlik\> bblfish, how to do ldp:hasMemberRelation but for inverse direction?

\<elf-pavlik\> similar to <>

\<tantek\> I've updated <> to reflect what has been demonstrated

tantek: agenda page updated to list every demo that happened\

... every demo now links to a user story\
... special thnaks to cwebber2 and Tsyesika for jumping in with

unplanned demos

sandro: dinner reservation at Fuji (?)\

... at 1830

\<Loqi\> I added a countdown for 3/17 6:30pm (\#5654)

\<aaronpk\> !meme one does not simply make dinner plans in Boston

\<Loqi\> <4aBjo3hi.jpg>

\<Loqi\> you're welcome

\<cwebber2\> thanx tantek :)

\<harry\> Fuiji

\<harry\> [6](,-71.0862795,17z/data=%214m2%213m1%211s0x0:0xe03189b1c272d2c4)

\<harry\> Fuji at Kendall

\<harry\> 300 Third St

\<harry\> Near the T

\<harry\> 18:30

\<aaronpk\> rhiaro: <>

\<bigbluehat\> here's the hack night going down tonight (fwiw) <>

\*: general dinner discussion

\<bigbluehat\> 440 Somerville ave, Somerville, ma

Is anyone still wanting to remote in?

tantek: Continuing\

... A number of items for the next hour\
... Push issue-10 to the top

\<harry\> +1 moving Social API to the top


\<trackbot\> issue-10 -- Need candidates for social api -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

scribe: Demos presented some strong candidates

\<Loqi\> Mlee14 made 2 edits to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

\<elf-pavlik\> sandro++ thanks for keeping telecon going!

\<Loqi\> sandro has 4 karma

scribe: Any other social API issues peole want to add?

\<tantek\> reload: <>

scribe: We have five items, lets see if we can get through them

\<tantek\> issue-10

\<trackbot\> issue-10 -- Need candidates for social api -- open

\<trackbot\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> SimonTennant, \^

\<tantek\> <>

scribe: There are a ton of api candidates added

eprodrom: Is someone actually goign to work on a proposal for all of these, eg. hydra?

tantek: summary proposal to address that

\<elf-pavlik\> eprodrom, i'll demo hydra!

tantek: From the demos, it is clear that there are two actively developed, well supported social APIs that have drawn strong amounts of interest

\<elf-pavlik\> and it has draft actively worked on <>

tantek: My proposoal is the working group narrow the candidates for APIs under our consideration down to those two, micropub and\

... because we saw user stories we agree on using multiple clients\
... and leave everything else off the table

harry: the proposal that has been left out that wasn't demoed was LDP, which is broadly compatible\

... sandro understands LDP, it would be premature to throw it out right


tantek: I think we should. The user story henry demonstrated was not even near the top of stories that had any consensus\

... The other two candidates had numerous user stories that had support

sandro: I did a demo a year ago of posting with LDP. Some stuff not finished, so didn't want to demo. People have done stuff with LDP, but aren't here

AnnB: feels prejudiced. I'm not sure I should have an opinion because I@m not a dev, but it's important to listen to this point

tantek: how to evaluate how far advanced candidates are?

AnnB: There's a larger representation of one community here than another, so of course that's where the demos came from

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> sorry if i was in too much of the frame there

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> is that better?

harry: seems that micropub is most advanced

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> my laptop?

harry: but there might be convergence, wouldn't take LDP off the table just yet

\<AnnB\> gee .... is rhiaro still having to scribe?

sandro: demos were impressive, but there are a whole lot of technical issues we haven't talked about at all

\<AnnB\> seems like someone else should step up to it

tantek: there will always be challenging things in the future

\<AnnB\> you're such a good scribe!

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 2 edits to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

sandro: some candidates might address that better than others

cwebber2: might also be beyond user story demonstration\

... lots of prep work done for evaluating different existing services

\<AnnB\> note that I thought and microformats communities were allied ... my misunderstanding

\<aaronpk\> allied sure, we're all friends :)

cwebber2: demos today were useful, but is it worth considering more discussion along tactical requirements? Especially as we did all that work gathering that

\<aaronpk\> but they are totally incompatible implementations

\<eprodrom\> B-)

\<aaronpk\> the laptop is using the built-in cam right now

\<AnnB\> elf, let me check

fjh: In annotation wg we're just starting work on protocol work, and looking at LDP as a basis for that

\<AnnB\> thanks sandro

fjh: sounds like you're considering not using that

tantek: there has been a lot of running code demonstrated that's reached a certain level of advancement

fjh: for LDP isn't it mostly just REST?

\<elf-pavlik\> tantek, you announced demos 3 days ago max

tantek: testable by saying there's a demo

sandro: this process of 'you had to demo today' was never agreed upon\

... so seems unfair

\<elf-pavlik\> sandro++

\<Loqi\> sandro has 5 karma

\<elf-pavlik\> i prepare demos of LDP + Hydra + LDF

fjh: just saying that for our group we want to make our choice compatible, so we want to know about LDP


\<Loqi\> sandro has 6 karma

\<elf-pavlik\> will share video with mailing list

\<harry\> So my take on things is this: It seemed micropub clearly had most of the work, and the had a large amount of maturity, and LDP had one video and not a live demo.

tantek: we've been asking for demos for months, that's not new

I've seen live demos of LDP (Cimba)

\<harry\> So my feeling is we could start with micropub and look for compatibility with and LDP

\<elf-pavlik\> already drafting it and deploying first bits to my homepage <>

\<elf-pavlik\> curl <> -H "Accept: application/ld+json"

\<harry\> and then try to converge

eprodrom: if the proposal was to consider three instead of two, any objections?

\<harry\> +1 narrowing to 3

\<elf-pavlik\> LDF provides powerful Hypermedia REST query

\<elf-pavlik\> i can take 1 week deadline for simple demo

tantek: we've seen sandro's LDP demo, so that's higher

\<mattl\> eprodrom: we need that pump/ostatus bridge thing.

harry: we have to make a decision

\<eprodrom\> Agreed!

harry: we shouldn't totally shut the door, but we do have to focus\

... it might hold up the working group indefinitely

\<eprodrom\> Also to get Social API and new Federation protocol into GNU Social

\<fjh\> The idiom "Crossing the Rubicon" means to pass a point of no return, and refers to Julius Caesar's army's crossing of the river in 49 BC, which was considered an act of insurrection.

\<elf-pavlik\> +1 to start polishing Micropub spec

harry: the narrowing the scope in a rough manor (not totally facist) to the top three candidates, makes sense

\<fjh\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> but not shut the door for other options

harry: We start looking at micropub very deeply as a baseline\

... and seeing what the venn diagram is between the other two proposals

which have implementatoins, and LDP

\<mattl\> eprodrom: i suggest doing the work in GNU FM first, which needs some minimal AS support anyway

\<cwebber2\> thx Tsyesika

harry: What users stories can micropub not do that the others do? etc\

... to try to keep us on track and make progress

\<harry\> I think LDF is part of the LDP story

tantek: so harry is supporting narrowing down to three, plus using micropub as a basis

harry: focus on: what is the difference between LDP, micropub and

\<elf-pavlik\> harry, some quotes from LDF specs <>

\<elf-pavlik\> Arnaud++

\<Loqi\> Arnaud has 8 karma

Arnaud: I'm chair of LDP working group, but not especially defending LDP. But I think some of this is unfair. We at least need to give people more heads up and a deadline\

... it's inappropriate for us right now to make a narrowing decision\
... I don't care about Hydra, but I've seen mentons of it. nobody said

if you don't demo today you won't be in the running any more

\<elf-pavlik\> thanks Arnaud!

tantek: understand

sandro: wondering is it your expectation that we'll pick one and bless it and go forward with it? Or we'll do some kind of hybridisation?\

... If today we said actually was the best, but actually it's a

starting point and we'll go ahead and modifying it\

... Are we keeping something existing, or modifying?

tantek: Personally I think running code has a very strong voice. So what is a good development strategy?\

... If we look at the studies of existing silos, it's clear that the

way they expanded was just add a new API for every single thing\

... And they have hundreds of api calls andit's huge\
... seems like an antipattern that we should avoid

sandro: but that works

tantek: that has some traction, but devs do complain

sandro: micropub uses html rather than json

\<elf-pavlik\> form-encoded--

\<Loqi\> form-encoded has -1 karma

sandro: some people might not like that\

... how are we going to make that kind of decision?

tantek: that's where user stories come in\

... does a user story make requirements that affect the plumbing?\
... if there was a clear leader, I would say can we expand that leader

to take into account all user stories?\

... if we can, great, if we can't, we need to take some other approach

sandro: so are the people behind each of these proposals willing to express their flexibility about ...

tantek: evan is editor of

\<elf-pavlik\> aaronpk, JSON content type for micropub?

eprodrom: possibly

\<aaronpk\> elf-pavlik: how would you suggest uploading a file such as a photo within a JSON post?

\<aaronpk\> and why do you want JSON?

eprodrom: oshepherd made proposal activitypump\

... updated to use AS2\
... if he was willing, happy to have him as editor

\<elf-pavlik\> for nested objects

sandro: is community flexible?

\<aaronpk\> ok how do you handle files?

eprodrom: yes, is waiting to implement the next thing

tantek: by implement you mean expand api?

sandro: right, if we think needs these extra features

eprodrom: yes

\<elf-pavlik\> file uploads can use special case?

sandro: switching from json to form-encoded, hypothetically

eprodrom: if we took api as baseline, then started changing it, that's pretty reasonable

\<aaronpk\> elf-pavlik: why? :)

eprodrom: there is a point at which I would take it back and reimplement it\

... depends how crazy it gets

\<elf-pavlik\> they don't make majority of content

sandro: would signal that with formal objection

\<aaronpk\> elf-pavlik: I disagree, look at my home page

tantek: haven't implemented micropub, not biased on that front\

... but from what I've seen, interactions between ben and aaron, and

expansion of scope to handle things, seemed flexible, but aaron can speak about that

aaronpk: I guess priority is making it easy to implement on both sides, but especially server side\

... ideally a lot of different implementations of servers\
... from simple php script to wordpress to rails apps etc\
... making it very esay to handle micropub requests is important so

there's a large ecosystem of clients and servers\

... form-encoding has been the default for a very long time, and is

still the only thing that can handle file uploads\

... you can't send file with json request

\<oshepherd\> You can't send a file with form encoding

aaronpk: but with form-encoding the file just magically appears in the code

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> did GWG get wordpress micropub plugin fully working?

\<oshepherd\> Files are multipart

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> I don't really follow the wordpress stuff

\<aaronpk\> oshepherd: sorry, i meant multipart. in practice they are handled seamlessly by most frameworks

eprodrom: I think there would be congnitive dissonance in the group by saying we're releasing a json format that is good for every situation, except this particular situation\

... we would have to asnwer to that or fudge over

tantek: we have to answer that up front\

... there are outstanding issues on AS around that as well\
... it's a working draft, anyone can propose another working draft if

they have a better idea than AS

\<oshepherd\> aaronpk: If the framework can do file uploads, it has MIME support somewhere, so JSON-in-Multipart shouldn't be impossible

Arnaud: What's the process to move forward?\

... We have several candidates

\<bblfish\> what happened everybody moved around?

\<aaronpk\> oshepherd: I didn't say it was impossible to upload files with JSON, just much harder

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> sorry, snarfed got micropub-\>wordpress working

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> we should have demo'd that

tantek: two proposals - narrow to two candidates and develop/incorporate. OR consider 3 candidates with a similar process, with optional amendment to use micropub as a base

fjh: I'm still thinking about how this works with annotations

\<elf-pavlik\> how about 2 weeks for more demos?

fjh: thanks aaron for explanation about why micropub is done this way\

... trying to figure out extensibility\
... Suspect code isn't tremendously different on the server side, maybe

I'm wrong

\<bblfish\> have the two or 3 initial platforms been settled on?

fjh: From a process point of view, when we talk about it, how would we integrate/extend it?\

... could be extended to some degree\
... this might feed into discussion

tantek: don't think there's a question about ability to extend

fjh: not clear about how you would extend micropub

\<Arnaud\> bblfish: tantek suggested we narrow down to micropub and

tantek: aaron's food demo was extension

\<Arnaud\> evan suggested including ldp

\<bblfish\> well +1 for ldp

fjh: Other question - is this a standard, what is w3c process?

\<harry\> Even I suggested not throwing LDP out

\<harry\> I noted it should be included

\<harry\> However, we do have to admit it that the other specs had better demos and running code.

tantek: anything group considers can be along spectrum of completely belonging to w3c, to referencing other specs

\<bblfish\> thanks harry

tantek: we have the option of saying 'this is a great building block, lets not mess with community, we can build on it'\

... just like annotations is looking at adding to social spec

fjh: just making sure we understand

tantek: licenses for and micropub are compatible

\<bblfish\> ah so we might go through another 3 years to just get back to where LDP got

tantek: open issue that harry is looking into to do with normative references

harry: working on it\

... IPR is broady compatible

\<harry\> insofar as its about a strong as the IPR in groups like IETF

fjh: if we want to figure out how we can use micropub as an example, we should be looking at h types?

\<harry\> although the non-assert is weaker than W3C patent policy

\<elf-pavlik\> PROPOSAL: let's don't assume that we can have normative dependency on <>

aaronpk: figuring out if h-entry as a base makes sense, or if there is a completely different post type that would make sense

\<cwebber2\> +q

harry: I liked the way we were going early where we said micropub really works, can we really use form-encoding for everything

\<cwebber2\> I guess I replied to something but didn't realize that was me being acked on the queue

harry: so we can use micropub as a baseline, and look at what's missing and how and LDP do it differently

\<cwebber2\> my bad though

\<cwebber2\> shoulda looked at irc.

harry: I do think we could make progress this way

\<tantek\> bblfish, as far as demos go, LDP is 3 years behind and micropub

harry: Looking at these is plumbing. Want to get candidates down so we can look into plumbing in a more structured way

\<bblfish\> I don't believe that

aaronpk: Not blatently going to say no to everything else, just haven't heard a good enough argument to support json for micropub

\<bblfish\> did timbl show a few of his demos?

\<tantek\> code is proof. permalinks are proof. belief is irrelevant.

\<bblfish\> yeah

\<harry\> So I would like to move to discussions re url form encoding vs. things like url templates

aaronpk: so far the only arguments I've heard are 'everybody likes json' and 'what about nested objects'

\<tantek\> demos are listed in the agenda as they occured

aaronpk: tomorrow would be happy to dive into it

\<harry\> Unforunately, despite being in the same building, we did not get a demo of crosscloud

\<harry\> but sandro notes he showed it at IndieWeb a year ago

cwebber2: I don't really know what I expected from the API and federation conversation, but straigh up blessing a previous work was not really what I expected\

... Figured WG had 3 steps

\<tantek\> harry, yes I saw Sandro's demo CrossCloud

cwebber2: Expected that we would be rewriting our federation stuff with what came out, but expected we would be building on AS2.0\

... Why not say that what we're working on as a basis is what hte group

has already been working on, ie AS2.0\

... and building on that\
... what the wg has already done

tantek: nobody has implemented AS2.0\

... whereas people have implemented micropub, and LDP

cwebber2: When we start talking about looking at messaging component, if you actually look at building tests for that, it already looks like an API

\<elf-pavlik\> I don't use AS2.0 because for now I still prefer to use for 'social syntax'

cwebber2: Seems like we're already getting towards what an API might start to look like using that as a basis

harry: it would be odd if vocab and API were very different things\

... We we started, we were originally looking at a simple CRUD based

API from open social who never showed up to wg meetings, and also looking at LDP which is now more mature\

... we did not look too closely at micropub; seemed like micropub is

solving a harder issue, but they are all in the same space\

... tomorrow we'll discuss federation

tantek: regarding history of AS, when we started wg, AS was the most mature thing\

... so it made sense to produce a draft of that in w3c space\
... Weird combination of most mature thing, but community has about


... So having it adopted by the wg, james made very quick progress

towards making it a draft\

... but still a working draft, so every single thing is still


... Trying to narrow things down nad make decisions, but still plenty

of flexibility there\

... One form of input for that is social APIs or federation\
... If we find that in the process of doing those other chartered

deliverables, we need to fix the social syntax, then we can!\

... If there's a problem with one, let's fix it

bblfish: very keen for LDP\

... Is w3c standard

\<tilgovi\> +1

bblfish: What needs to be done there is.. I'm not that convinced about tools... We've already built demos, we know they can work\

... So I take into account architectural elements\
... Now I think the thing for me is to see all of the other work done,

if one maps it to LDP, what's missing and what's not working? Is something broken/missing in LDP?

\<tantek\> but no one appears to be actually using it live on the web (LDP based tools) day to day? why? is there something that is broken in LDP?

bblfish: that's just something we haven't thought about

\<tantek\> e.g. to do the things in the user stories

tantek: cimba is still online, right?

\<tantek\> like posting notes, photos, comments, likes

\<elf-pavlik\> jasnell mentioned making his new blog using LDP!

bblfish: have to take work on LDP into consideration. Has tests and implementations

\<tantek\> elf-pavlik: but we don't have "3 years" of LDP

bblfish: Notion of parallel development

\<tantek\> that's the problem - it's alwasy a "I'm building it!" never a "I built it, here is my site, here are my permalinks"

bblfish: To help narrow down on what architectural differences are. Perhaps they're not that big\

... facebook has slowed growth of blogging\
... ten years ago, people making arguments about rdf being complicated\
... my arguement is that these problems are there because that's the

only way you can build a distributed social web\

... we have to try these things out, or we'll be another ten years

harry: want to correct misconception\

... just because w3c standardises something doesn't mean it's a


... grddl had no uptake, was a waste of resources\
... it is possible to standardise things that have no uptake\
... don't want to see that happen again\
... our job is to create things that have wide interop

\<elf-pavlik\> bblfish, can you record demo of \*exact\* implementaion of some user stories using LDP ?

harry: so we should try to get consensus on narrowing scope by the end of today\

... plus give people one extra month to suggest candidates and defend


\<elf-pavlik\> +1 2-4 extra weeks

harry: but for structuring conversaion for tomorrow, we should focus on live working candidates

\<bblfish\> yes, it would probably take some elements of all the other apis, and just generlaise the data structure very lightly

\<bblfish\> Ie describe the RDF.

\<bblfish\> sorry describe the resources

sandro: taking micropub as strawman starting point / reference\

... if it doesn't do something, can we look at other candidates for


harry: don't want to get lost in things that don't have implementations\

... Let's start with three strawmen with implementations, but we dont'

have to be strict

\<bret\> is there no phone call right now?

Arnaud: clarify, what basis we start from

\<aaronpk\> bret: no phone, just talky

\<bret\> ahh ok

Arnaud: no matter what we choose it's going to be subject to modificatoin

\<harry\> PROPOSAL: We focus on the following three micropub, and LDP as a starting point, and others have 4 weeks to show demos or running code.

\<elf-pavlik\> +1

\<tantek\> +1

\<harry\> note the term 'focus' does not mean we totally exclude everyone else forever

\<Tsyesika\> +1

tantek: by focus we mean narrow down


\<harry\> as new things can happen and there may be problems \*none\* of these candidates have solved.

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> +1

\<tantek\> numerous others here: <>

\<aaronpk\> +1

\<sandro\> -1 on 4 weeks

\<Loqi\> I added a countdown for 4/14 1:58pm (\#5655)

fjh: 'others' means other approaches besides those three?

\<bblfish\> +1 for LDP ( I don't have any restrictions about the others that went missing )

tantek: yes, some listed \^\

... four weeks is reasonable for more demo

eprodrom: do we have a group of people willing ot put together LDP proposal

\<elf-pavlik\> I will focus on Hydra+LDF but possibly will also use LDP in that mix

randall: considering annotations also looking at that, would like to help

sandro: might be difficult to get consensus within ldp

\<cwebber2\> sandro: btw do you know if we could invite another mediagoblin person to dinner?

\<cwebber2\> so that would be one more person

sandro: why not just say now we're going to focus on these three, but if something else comes forward we will consider them

\<harry\> Just to be clear, the "others" are BuddyCloud (XMPP), SocketHub, remoteStorage, LDF, Hydra, ActivityPump, Apache UserGrid API, and OpenSocial API

\<elf-pavlik\> +1 demos of user stories!

\<harry\> Modify proposal

\<elf-pavlik\> preferably ones we most agree on

bblfish: what user stories?

Arnaud: more the better

timbl: can you write new ones?

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> from the top

tantek: we have a page for more, but we went through a process of getting core users stories

\<harry\> PROPOSAL: We focus on the following three micropub, and LDP as a starting point, and others will be considered if they have running code and demos that match the user stories

\<elf-pavlik\> +1

\<tantek\> +1

\<eprodrom\> +1

\<sandro\> +1


\<cwebber2\> +1

\<aaronpk\> +1

\<Tsyesika\> +1

\<sandro\> (user STORIES)

\<harry\> +1

\<AnnB\_\> +1

    • RESOLUTION: We focus on the following three micropub, and LDP

as a starting point, and others will be considered if they have running code and demos that match the user stories**

\<elf-pavlik\> harry++

tantek: we're past the point of people throwing up ideas, they need to come forward with code

\<Loqi\> harry has 5 karma

harry: second proposal

\<harry\> PROPOSAL: Is that we start with a strawman, that one being micropub, and then we systematically compare it to and LDP in terms of user stories.

harry: We start with a strawman, being micropub, and we systematically compare it to and LDP in terms of user stories\

... Do want to look at technical differences

\<tantek\> +1

\<elf-pavlik\> +1

harry: I hate user stories as a way to avoid plumbing discussion

\<cwebber2\> -0

harry: at some point we have to encounter plumbing discussion

\<harry\> +1

tantek: not used to avoid it, used to focus it\

... this is an engineer wide problem\
... we love to talk about plumbing, but it's so often disconnected from

users and what features matter\

... that it wastes time\
... so user stories are a focusing tool\
... to make sure you're working on something people care about

eprodrom: we're not making software for end users, ew're making a standard for devs to use to make software for their users

\<aaronpk\> +1

tantek: but we have representitves for that

harry: lines are getting blurrier and blurrier

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> +1

tantek: not as strong consensus

harry: happy for other ways to go forward\

... just want a way forward by the end of the day

\<bblfish\> +1

\<harry\> Any other ways forward?

\<sandro\> +0

tantek: seems to be a way forward that people can live with\

... is this resolved?

\<Tsyesika\> -1

\<harry\> Ah, there's one -1!

Tsyesika: what are the grounds for picking micropub over ...?

harry: we clearly have, at this moment, more interop, more demos\

... you did a lot of work, don't want to say... but count the number of

bits of running code\

... you could choose any

Tsyesika: we only demoed the code we wrote, there are like ten clients and loads of users as well

harry: I'd be equally happy with as a strawman\

... Result is that we compare all of them

Tsyesika: so why a column?

\<tantek\> note that Micropub already has 12+ diff client implementations, 8+ server implementations documented, linked from <>

sandro: other reason to pick one could be that documentation is more structured\

... going through it in order might be easier\
... have no idea which

tantek: there are 10+ clients? there are 12+ micropub clients

\<harry\> And I think LDP has like 3 clients

tantek: on wiki, there's a list of clients

\<harry\> perhaps many more

\<aaronpk\> not to mention Known and Wordpress supporting micropub which means lots of users

\<eprodrom\> <>

\<harry\> so its kinda apples and orange, I would just like to have a way to start

Arnaud: Another way to select which we use as reference: how many use cases does each address?

\<wilkie\> they sound identical at the moment :)

Arnaud: Seems a bit mor efair

\<tantek\> eprodrom, can you add that to <> ?

\<harry\> Well, we had more demos of people that \*showed up\* to micropubs

Arnaud: or objectives\

... than 'i think there are more implementations'

sandro: who matches with use cases?

Arnaud: maybe implementors already have an idea

\<wilkie\> we don't want to fight micropub in some arena. we want proper interop.

tantek: we saw about equal user stories for micropub and

Tsyesika: we didn't demonstrate all. We can demo more

\<tilgovi\> wilkie: !!! +1 !!!

\<wilkie\> so strange to see fighting over who is the strawman... haha

AdamB: Arnaud's point is a good way to make a data driven decisions

tantek: this is why we did these user stories, and narrowing them down to what's important

Arnaud: before we select one candidate vs another, we should agree on selection criteria

tantek: we're talking about narrowing down not candidate

harry: not reference, juts starting point\

... is kind of arbitrary decision, not really attached\
... therefore we could say we will do a three way comparison between

each of these three candidates

\<harry\> I can modify proposal

\<harry\> PROPOSAL: We will compare all three candidates based on (at least but not limited to) the 7 user stories we have clear consensus on.

\<tantek\> +

\<tantek\> +1

\<aaronpk\> +1

\<harry\> +1

\<Tsyesika\> +1


\<bblfish\> +1

\<cwebber2\> +1

\<harry\> Note that we can discuss the user stories and consensus tomorrow morning

\<wilkie\> +1

\<ben\_thatmustbeme\> +1

\<harry\> and the role of the IG (hint hint Ann)

\<sandro\> +1

\<bblfish\> And you want to do that in one month ?

\<AdamB\> +1

\<harry\> I am imagining a huge matrix

AnnB: what are logistics?

\<harry\> :)

\<harry\> And a blue pill

AnnB: Really liked how james did comparison in AS with syntaxes. is this what we're talking about?

\<harry\> Anyways, no - we don't expect you to match all 7 user stories

tantek: we have working demos for some user stories

\<harry\> but we will look at how each candidate can or do match it.

AnnB: I didn't realise this was demos

\<sandro\> <>

tantek: we need demos for comparisons

    • RESOLUTION: We will compare all three candidates based on (at least

but not limited to) the 7 user stories we have clear consensus on.**

\<mattl\> rhiaro is scribing like a boss today

\<cwebber2\> seriously

\<Zakim\> tantek, you wanted to follow-up to reply to facebook taking over blogging and to also note how you can build a distributed social web

\<cwebber2\> rhiaro++ (again)

\<Loqi\> rhiaro has 28 karma

\<mattl\> rhiaro++

\<Loqi\> rhiaro has 29 karma

\<cwebber2\> rhiaro: sounds like you've got lots of karma to spend

tantek: henry says he has been working on LDP for three years and it's a standard

\<harry\> I'm close to 10 years but not there yet :)

tantek: how many people have been working with w3c standards for more than 10 years?

\*several hands raised\*

scribe: Some history: hundreds of man years of everything being based on xml\

... You had to build everything in terms of xml standards, otherwise

why are you doing anything?

\<AnnB\_\> been here for \~15, but never in a WG

scribe: Very little of that is actually in use on the web today

\<AnnB\_\> ... I do know this history though

\<AnnB\_\> rhiaro ++++

scribe: Just because years have been spent on something doesn't mean it works. Years != justification for using it

\<sandro\> +1 Tantek "years put into a standard" isn't a quality metric

\<KevinMarks\> sunk cost fallacy

timbl: Absolutely right. But what happened with XML is people decided developres wanted trees\

... What they looked at were things like SGML, if you go back before

XML, the way people moved docs aroudn was SGML standard, very large but very weird\

... Parsing rules by lawyers\
... But people liked the fact it had these simple tags

\<sandro\> KevinMarks, it's not that. It's about measuring quality, not sunk cost.

\<harry\> people forget XML is a massive simplification :)

timbl: So XML move was to take SGML standard and make something small

\<harry\> Then JSON simplified XML

\<eprodrom\_\> This might be a good conversation to have over green beers

timbl: A spec you can read on the train

\<AnnB\_\> Boeing uses XML extensively for some things

timbl: Lots of companies started developing XML stacks\

... which was much simpler than using SGML

\<harry\> eventually all coding will be simplified to a giant single string (hint hint form encoding)

\<KevinMarks\> JSON din't simplify xml, it ignored it

timbl: It was all they had\

... XML was a huge improvement\
... But used mostly in enterprise\
... There's still a huge amount of software running XML because it's so

much ismpler than what was before\

... On top of that, a whole bunch of people deciding we should do web

services with xml

\<wilkie\> some of us often point out that we want things that are built and used by many people before cosidering them here as serious, and yet we are using XML as the counter-example atm

\<wilkie\> strange

timbl: Web Services even better example of standard that wasn't best

\<Loqi\> Eprodrom made 1 edit to Socialwg/Social API/Candidates <>

\<wilkie\> also green beer is scary to me

timbl: Then in between, people decided xml is a tree format so is boring as a data format, so worked on RDF data model\

... many people will tell you about benefits of RDF\
... but it didn't take off\
... but it had certain nice features\
... which gave more accessibility\
... it made the mistake of starting with xml\
... since then, the graph model of rdf did not completely take of, and

people have a craving for trees again\

... therefore reasonable standardisation of json, because it matches

object model of js\

... json is a tree\
... when you do things with json you end up with the same issues as


... Nothing wrong with trees..

\<KevinMarks\> not just JS, python, ruby etc all grok JSON structures

\<harry\> I think that's a great summary of the W3C's history in a nutshell

timbl: also the magic thing about json is it's great integration with js\

... so that's some history..

sandro: more xml jobs than java jobs on linked in

AnnB: we use xml extensively, huge in industry

\<bret\> is available jobs in technology a quality metric?

\<KevinMarks\> XML is more work than JSON, hence more jobs

harry: advantages and disadvantages of xml, json, rdf is a great dinner conversation..\

... various people have said this working group will fail because we'll

be unable to bring communities together

\<AnnB\_\> Harry: we need to seek the 'sweet' spots between all these technologies; find the spots where we can agree

\<Loqi\> melvster: aaronpk left you a message on 3/11 at 3:04pm: feel free to add linked data to the IRC logs and send me a PR <> <>

\<bret\> the working group needs to go a team building backpacking trip


harry: so as long as we are all flexible we will be able to bring a standard

\<AnnB\_\> I'm IN bret!

\<AnnB\_\> the best way to get to know folks ... camping

\<mattl\> eprodrom\_: see if you can implement wrapping this event up

harry: this is why we launched now, as opposed to earlier, because we actually have vibrant communities of coders who are getting stuff working\

... We do have a fighting chance

\<eprodrom\_\> mattl: That might be beyond even my abilities

\<eprodrom\_\> B-)

\<mattl\> eprodrom\_++

\<AnnB\_\> good thought, Tantek, but not everyone is an implementer .. nor is going to be

\<Loqi\> eprodrom\_ has 5 karma

\<Arnaud\> for the record, the assertion that XML is minimally used is ignoring the reality of the enterprise

tantek: that comment about failure is from major social networks\

... twitter, google, facebook\
... reality is, how do you build a distributed social web

\<bigbluehat\> Hack Night ticket sign-up fixed...fwiw <>

\<bigbluehat\> 7-10 pm

\<KevinMarks\> right, AnnB\_ but now we have implemented tools for others

\<Arnaud\> whether this is a good thing or not, XML is widely used in the enterprise

\<KevinMarks\> Arnaud: he said 'minimally used on the web'

\<AnnB\_\> and I applaud you guys, KevinMarks!

\<aaronpk\> likley as a result of enterprise being generally slower than consumer web, so is still riding the original xml wave

\<bret\> AnnB\_: have you tried or known?

a bunch of my scribing was lost because my client crashed without telling me :(

\<Arnaud\> the web is much bigger than tantek's web

\<oshepherd\> XML expresses a lot of things well that JSON does not, but a lot of things get shoved into XML which are entirely inappropriate.

so the last like ten minutes, you'll have to remember


\<KevinMarks\> Ann see <>

\<tantek\> bigbluehat: could you add it to <> ?

\<KevinMarks\> rhiaro: we got some

\<elf-pavlik\> thanks for scribing rhiaro++

\<aaronpk\> rhiaro++

\<Loqi\> rhiaro has 31 karma

\<elf-pavlik\> thanks for videoconf setup sandro++

\<wilkie\> rhiaro++

\<Loqi\> rhiaro has 32 karma

\<elf-pavlik\> tanks for chairing Arnaud++ & tantek++

\<bret\> sandro++ for the video

\<Loqi\> sandro has 7 karma

\<tantek\> meeting adjourned for today!

\<bret\> audio from the phone was better, as big as a hassle zakim can be

\<KevinMarks\> rhiaro++

\<Loqi\> rhiaro has 33 karma

\<aaronpk\> the audio just now was the built-in mic on the laptop, not the real camera

\<aaronpk\> the logitech cam is way better

\<bret\> ahh

\<bret\> ok

\<KevinMarks\> ah, thats why it has so much desk

\<bret\> aaronpk: are you meeting again tomorrow?

\<elf-pavlik\> aaronpk, externa cam just made bunch of noise

\<elf-pavlik\> sandro needed to disconnect it

\<melvster\> how was the meeting today, any highlights (for those following remotely)?

\<bret\> melvster: rhiaro did an A+ job scribing almost the whole thing <>

\<bret\> i was only there for part so I cant really highlight

\<Arnaud\> we agreed to narrow down the APIs to micropub,, and LDP and compare them

\<Arnaud\> that's the biggest outcome I think

\<Arnaud\> we have a couple of people working on starting a test suite for activitystreams

\<melvster\> Arnaud: great, test suites are always good, I particularly like the interop test suite for LDP

\<Loqi\> Tantekelik made 2 edits to Socialwg/2015-03-17 <>

\<melvster\> Arnaud: having spent the last year building social apps for LDP I am tremendously impressed, I think it would be a good fit for those that want to be both social and distributed

\<Arnaud\> ok, so, if you care you should consider demo'ing anything you've done

\<Arnaud\> for now, LDP is the underdog in this race

\<melvster\> Arnaud: just in the process of refactoring an app ... here's a screen grab tho : <app.png>

\<Arnaud\> just because micropub and have code and demos

\<Arnaud\> tantek actually proposed to eliminate LDP from the race, but it got pushed back

\<Arnaud\> screen grab looks promising but won't be convincing tantek unless you can actually demo it

\<bret\> melvster: LDP definitely needs some live real world demos. show it if you got it

\<melvster\> it only became REC last week ... you cant really expect too many demos

\<Arnaud\> the opportunity is there, people who care need to do the footwork

\<wilkie\> all of the ideas and innovation we \*haven't\* seen before are in those things we don't readily use/immediately understand. glad to see LDP here.

\<melvster\> here's one I like : <>

\<melvster\> LDP is in its first month as a W3C REC ... I think demos will be coming throughout the year, I certainly intend to build lots of things with it

\<Arnaud\> sorry, got to go

\<Arnaud\> ttyl

\<melvster\> np, cu!

\<melvster\> bret: thanks for the pointer

\<bret\> yeah np, lot of people at this f2f, so definately reach out and ask for clarification

\<bret\> if you need it

\<melvster\> bret: thanks, just following from a distance, in case anything interesting can be reused

\<melvster\> the work on activity streams looks promising

\<Guest\> +1 for AS2 progress in the last 6 months in this WG

\<melvster\> bret: I found this too <>

\<bret\> cool hadn't seen this

\<bret\> whats the relationship between ldp and rdf?

\<melvster\> some comments

\<melvster\> bret: RDF is used to describe container / contained relationship in the file system, RDF is another name for linked data

\<melvster\> minutes look good, LDP is a great base for building \*distributed\* and \*non distributed\* apps, so I think it offers a lot to the group, I like bblfish idea about using FOAF for profiles, that almost made it into the ostatus spec but not quite, I think that would have been a big plus for scalability if so, dont agree with harry on ambiguity, sometimes the data / document distinction doesnt matter sometimes it does, it depends on the use case, love tantek's p

\<melvster\> assion, but sometimes that passion can be exclusive other technologies, may limit wider participation

\<melvster\> work on AS2 looks great

\<melvster\> cool read all the minutes, a bit like following the ryder cup on wikipedia :)

\<melvster\> what has interested me for the last decade on the social web are people, friends and connections ... I think the minutes are underweight those topics, and overweight API discussion, I would hope the latter could be build on the foundation of the former, bblfish's comment about using FOAF profiles was relevant there, evan actually implemented a pretty decent foaf in too, I still link to one from my homepage ... some good work on using URLs to nam

\<melvster\> e things, but Id really like to see use of URLs to CONNECT things ... much how the web of documents grew virally by using hyperlinks

\<melvster\> re browsable social graph there have been many visualizers written, here's one : <>

\<melvster\> you can click thru links, those that are still there

\<melvster\> it goes several million deep

\<melvster\> actually you can browse through to facebook too since they have been the first to implement some linked data

\<bret\> "111: Connection refused" on <>

\<bret\> a ton of those links appear to be dead

\<elf-pavlik\> Zakim++ \#FIXME

\<Loqi\> Zakim has 0 karma

\<elf-pavlik\> melvster, could you imagine helping with ldp:Container

\<elf-pavlik\> action-44

\<trackbot\> action-44 -- Pavlik elf to Collection - compare AS2 design with LDP, Hydra, etc. -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN

\<trackbot\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> also <>

\<Loqi\> @elfpavlik :: Collections in \#RDF? <> @LDPWG @SocialWebWG @danbri @kidehen @manusporny @jasnell <>

\<elf-pavlik\> danbri, co you have any updates on @context enabling better interop? <>

\<Loqi\> @danbri :: @elfpavlik @jasnell @HydraCG @LDPWG @SocialWebWG @kidehen @manusporny I'll tidy and send later in the week

\<elf-pavlik\> sandro, aaronpk can we discouss collections tomrrow? ldp:Container looks very useful IMO more than as:Collection

\<melvster\> elf-pavlik: i generally enjoy helping people, but Im not a member of this group, Id rather focus on coding, than debating standards at this point, just following from a distance, if someone asks in one of the other groups im a member of, eg the read write web group, id be happy to do what I can to assist

\<elf-pavlik\> melvster, can you point me to the open source code using ldp:Container?

\<elf-pavlik\> i mostly want to see use of inverse properties ldp:hasMemberRelation

\<melvster\> ... ldphp and GOLD should support that part <>

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

\<melvster\> but you'd need a webid

\<elf-pavlik\> webid+tls ?

\<elf-pavlik\> or just WebID ?

\<elf-pavlik\> WebID+IndieAuth? :)

\<elf-pavlik\> WebID+LDSignatures...

\<melvster\> well you have neither, but you need a webid first, i think currently supported is webid + tls but auth is pluggable, in the past has been supported openid, oauth, gmail, yahoo, aol, persona iirc

\<elf-pavlik\> persona++

\<Loqi\> persona has 2 karma

\<elf-pavlik\> <> ?

\<melvster\> what about it?

\<melvster\> gnight

\<melvster\> webid requires turtle

\<melvster\> as does ldp

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

\<elf-pavlik\> melvster, i can automate JSON-LD -\> Tutrle easily

\<melvster\> elf-pavlik: yes that's what I did too, took me a few minutes

\<elf-pavlik\> i already use <> for testing AS2.0 examples in a spec - JSON-LD, Turtle, RDFa

\<melvster\> look forward to seeing that

\<elf-pavlik\> have you used <> ?

\<melvster\> no but i was looking at rdfstore

\<melvster\> for indexdb offline storage of quads

\<melvster\> my app currently works using follow your nose

\<melvster\> but i dont want to pull in the data every time

\<melvster\> i want to cache it and stream new data

\<melvster\> such as presence and posts

\<melvster\> and additions to the datawiki

\<elf-pavlik\> <> has 6 indexes only for tripples but you can have quads but without indexing 4th one

\<elf-pavlik\> we have issue for that... and blank nodes handling may need some tweeking :S

\<melvster\> quads are coming to rdfstore

\<melvster\> <>

\<melvster\> and n3.js

\<elf-pavlik\> <>

\<melvster\> quad backend in rdfstore <>

\<melvster\> i dont use blank nodes

Summary of Action Items

    • [NEW]** **ACTION:** eprodom to extract the examples from the main

documents, pick properties and put together a test for those exmaples [recorded in <>]\

**[NEW]** **ACTION:** eprodrom to extract the examples from the main

documents, pick properties and put together a test for those examples [recorded in <>]\

**[NEW]** **ACTION:** harry to set-up a github for AS2.0 testing

(whatever that ends up being, we'll need a github!) [recorded in <>]\

**[NEW]** **ACTION:** pelf to Publish AS2.0 data on one's own website

[recorded in <>]\