Planet MathML

Hi everyone,

Below is a video of a talk by John Hudson (of Tiro) pondering variable
fonts for stretchy constructions (the part starts around 43 min into the
talk though the link should take you there).

I've reached to John to get more input on this ideas.

Best,
Peter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuuAmG_qer8&feature=youtu.be&t=2559

Welcome Daniel

I've been hoping for some serious progress on the display of Math for
years, and welcome your participation.

Cheers,
David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

Tel:  613-806-9005

LinkedIn
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

twitter.com/davidmacd

GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>

www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>



*  Adapting the web to all users*
*            Including those with disabilities*

If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
<http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>


On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 3:12 AM Léonie Watson <tink@tink.uk> wrote:

> Thanks Daniel. If you haven't already, you should talk with Johannes
> Wilm, who edits some of the editing specs. I'll introduce you both
> offlist just in case.
>
> Léonie.
>
>
> On 11/01/2019 17:38, Daniel Marques wrote:
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > I’m Daniel Marques and I’ve just recently joint the Web Platform WG. I’m
> > co-founder of a company called Maths for More which is the owner of the
> > WIRIS brand.
> >
> > I'm mainly interested about display mathematics (and science) in HTML5,
> > something related to MathML. But I'm also interested in the editing
> > features of HTML (cursor, selection, IME, ...) since our main product is
> > an equation editor.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Daniel Marques
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 6:06 PM Léonie Watson <tink@tink.uk
> > <mailto:tink@tink.uk>> wrote:
> >
> >     Welcome to Daniel Marques, who joins WebPlat on behalf of Wiris
> Science.
> >
> >     --
> >     @LeonieWatson tink.uk <http://tink.uk> Carpe diem
> >
>
> --
> @LeonieWatson tink.uk Carpe diem
>
>

Thanks Daniel. If you haven't already, you should talk with Johannes 
Wilm, who edits some of the editing specs. I'll introduce you both 
offlist just in case.

Léonie.


On 11/01/2019 17:38, Daniel Marques wrote:
> Hi everybody,
> 
> I’m Daniel Marques and I’ve just recently joint the Web Platform WG. I’m 
> co-founder of a company called Maths for More which is the owner of the 
> WIRIS brand.
> 
> I'm mainly interested about display mathematics (and science) in HTML5, 
> something related to MathML. But I'm also interested in the editing 
> features of HTML (cursor, selection, IME, ...) since our main product is 
> an equation editor.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Daniel Marques
> 
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 6:06 PM Léonie Watson <tink@tink.uk 
> <mailto:tink@tink.uk>> wrote:
> 
>     Welcome to Daniel Marques, who joins WebPlat on behalf of Wiris Science.
> 
>     -- 
>     @LeonieWatson tink.uk <http://tink.uk> Carpe diem
> 

-- 
@LeonieWatson tink.uk Carpe diem

Here is the zoom recording and transcription<https://benetech.zoom.us/recording/share/3H-t4oakhZmfNx-JYx20nmxhwDRo8PDYpLHlrghatYiwIumekTziMw> from the meeting today.

Thanks
EOM
Charles LaPierre
Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
Skype: charles_lapierre
Phone: 650-600-3301

On Jan 14, 2019, at 5:07 AM, Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com<mailto:peter@krautzource.com>> wrote:

Hi everyone,

Just a quick reminder that we're meeting today. For details, please check the calendar on the homepage [1] or check the GitHub Wiki [2].

A tentative agenda is below.

Best,
Peter.

# Agenda

* planning 2019

[1] https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/
[2] https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki

My regrets - I have a last minute conflict.

Peter.

Am Mo., 14. Jan. 2019 um 14:07 Uhr schrieb Peter Krautzberger <
peter@krautzource.com>:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Just a quick reminder that we're meeting today. For details, please check
> the calendar on the homepage [1] or check the GitHub Wiki [2].
>
> A tentative agenda is below.
>
> Best,
> Peter.
>
> # Agenda
>
> * planning 2019
>
> [1] https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/
> [2] https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki
>

Hi everyone,

Just a quick reminder that we're meeting today. For details, please check
the calendar on the homepage [1] or check the GitHub Wiki [2].

A tentative agenda is below.

Best,
Peter.

# Agenda

* planning 2019

[1] https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/
[2] https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki

Hi Peter,

My wish list:

1) [a11y] Improve the way it is possible to browse a formula using ARIA
specification.

2) [CSS] Still interested in Math layout (with or without the help of
MathML).

During the year, for sure more ideas will arise!

Dani

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 9:17 AM Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> As we did last year, let's try for a thread with thoughts on the coming
> year and what we might focus on within this CG.
>
> I'll start below.
>
> Best,
> Peter.
>
> I think 2019 will be a difficult year for the CG. The main problem is the
> recently re-opened arguing around "native" MathML support in browser. I
> expect this to continue to have a negative impact on this group and the
> wider community.
>
> I wished there was an easy way to make a clear cut and simply have all
> "native" MathML fans take it elsewhere. But there isn't. Too many people
> (myself included) consider MathML a useful spec to capture print layout in
> an XML context (and thus critical for legacy content) and for them it will
> be difficult not to care if the spec ends up being damaged in another
> attempt to "bless" problematic browser implementations (remember Presto?).
>
> The second and sadly related problem is that the number of active group
> members has dropped recently. As Tzviya likes to say: standards are made by
> those who show up - and people aren't. Some of this has to do with the
> constant arguing around MathML. Since math on the web is a very small niche
> (and that won't change), there are very few people willing and able to work
> towards standardization, and even fewer who can afford to spend their time
> on standards work. I would like to encourage everyone on this group to be
> more mindful of this.
>
> What could the group work on in its current state? Some ideas:
>
> 1) Being a good space for the community. I was surprised with how often
> the CG telcos end up helping individuals who show up one time. I think the
> group can do more to be a place where the community gathers openly.
>
> 2) The accessibility task force has mostly joined the ARIA WG directly.
> That's a good move for now to keep things focused while moving up in the
> standards process. My personal favorite would be to get separate Braille
> streams moving forward but ther are other ways to make a positive impact on
> the web platform this year.
>
> 3) The CSS task force had a productive meeting with the CSS WG at TPAC and
> if there's progress on even a single item from our TPAC list it would be a
> significant step for the web as a whole.
>
> 4) Given the recent news about AsciiDoc working towards standardizing its
> syntax, I'd like to try to re-open the linear notation task force. I could
> imagine both AsciiMath and TeX-style syntax for the web could benefit from
> some standardization.
>
> 5) I would also like for the CG try to live up to its scope which is all
> mathematics (and possibly large chunks of scientific content) are part of
> it. Equation layout is a solved problem (even if separate braille streams
> are still on the todo list). Let's stop obsessing over it and think about
> other content or technologies (e.g., computational improvements to the web
> platform). I plan to follow up on my theorem-related posting a while back
> and perhaps other people have topics they're itching to discuss more
> broadly.
>
> Alright, that might be a decent start.
>
> Best,
> Peter.
>

-- 

MathType 7 is out! Check the new version at wiris.com/mathtype 
<http://www.wiris.com/mathtype?utm_source=emailfooter>

Hi everyone,

As we did last year, let's try for a thread with thoughts on the coming
year and what we might focus on within this CG.

I'll start below.

Best,
Peter.

I think 2019 will be a difficult year for the CG. The main problem is the
recently re-opened arguing around "native" MathML support in browser. I
expect this to continue to have a negative impact on this group and the
wider community.

I wished there was an easy way to make a clear cut and simply have all
"native" MathML fans take it elsewhere. But there isn't. Too many people
(myself included) consider MathML a useful spec to capture print layout in
an XML context (and thus critical for legacy content) and for them it will
be difficult not to care if the spec ends up being damaged in another
attempt to "bless" problematic browser implementations (remember Presto?).

The second and sadly related problem is that the number of active group
members has dropped recently. As Tzviya likes to say: standards are made by
those who show up - and people aren't. Some of this has to do with the
constant arguing around MathML. Since math on the web is a very small niche
(and that won't change), there are very few people willing and able to work
towards standardization, and even fewer who can afford to spend their time
on standards work. I would like to encourage everyone on this group to be
more mindful of this.

What could the group work on in its current state? Some ideas:

1) Being a good space for the community. I was surprised with how often the
CG telcos end up helping individuals who show up one time. I think the
group can do more to be a place where the community gathers openly.

2) The accessibility task force has mostly joined the ARIA WG directly.
That's a good move for now to keep things focused while moving up in the
standards process. My personal favorite would be to get separate Braille
streams moving forward but ther are other ways to make a positive impact on
the web platform this year.

3) The CSS task force had a productive meeting with the CSS WG at TPAC and
if there's progress on even a single item from our TPAC list it would be a
significant step for the web as a whole.

4) Given the recent news about AsciiDoc working towards standardizing its
syntax, I'd like to try to re-open the linear notation task force. I could
imagine both AsciiMath and TeX-style syntax for the web could benefit from
some standardization.

5) I would also like for the CG try to live up to its scope which is all
mathematics (and possibly large chunks of scientific content) are part of
it. Equation layout is a solved problem (even if separate braille streams
are still on the todo list). Let's stop obsessing over it and think about
other content or technologies (e.g., computational improvements to the web
platform). I plan to follow up on my theorem-related posting a while back
and perhaps other people have topics they're itching to discuss more
broadly.

Alright, that might be a decent start.

Best,
Peter.

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the update! I expect the best of the CG during 2019 !!

Dani

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 4:51 PM Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>
wrote:

> Hi MathOnWeb,
>
> We will change our meeting schedule as follows for 2019:
>
> There will be a general CG meeting every other Monday at 11am Eastern Time
> in 2019.
>
> We kick off on January 14. The calendar has been updated as well.
>
> Best,
> Peter.
>

-- 

MathType 7 is out! Check the new version at wiris.com/mathtype 
<http://www.wiris.com/mathtype?utm_source=emailfooter>

Hi MathOnWeb,

We will change our meeting schedule as follows for 2019:

There will be a general CG meeting every other Monday at 11am Eastern Time
in 2019.

We kick off on January 14. The calendar has been updated as well.

Best,
Peter.

Hi everybody,

Since no one took minutes, I write what I remember during the
teleconference. It might be some bias from my side.

Dani

# A11y TF

Present: Kevin and Dani

A brief meeting where Dani pointed out that most of the work should be done
inside the Aria WG and only use the TF if some additional work is needed.
Unfortunately, only invited experts or affiliates of the w3c organization
members can take part of the Aria WG meetings. We will update at the
regular CG meetings.

# CSS TF

Present: Arno, Peter and Dani

We discussed basically two topics.

We decided that it is fine to update the document
https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki/%5BCSS-TF%5D-TPAC-2018-preparations
since TPAC was finished.

We discussed a little bit the options for the CSS specification of the
stretchy character
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OMFIK_x7N40Qct4aNKHSQzOOdo1ZURUNC94mYVMglFA/edit?usp=sharing
. No decision was made about which is the best option. Arno pointed out
that CSS functions are “functions” and that should “return” a well known
object with proper type, so they shouldn’t be used as a mere syntax
constructor. We decided to start some implementations and we will see which
specification we want later.

-- 

MathType 7 is out! Check the new version at wiris.com/mathtype 
<http://www.wiris.com/mathtype?utm_source=emailfooter>

Hi everybody,

Possible topics for the next CSS TF meeting next Monday, December 17h, 18h
CEST.

   1. Improvements of the document
   https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki/%5BCSS-TF%5D-TPAC-2018-preparations
   (since TPAC is over it is time to review the document and improve it).
   2. Decide which solution for stretchy characters we prefer, and we might
   be interested in develop a polyfill. See
   https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OMFIK_x7N40Qct4aNKHSQzOOdo1ZURUNC94mYVMglFA/edit?usp=sharing

Regards,

Dani

-- 

MathType 7 is out! Check the new version at wiris.com/mathtype 
<http://www.wiris.com/mathtype?utm_source=emailfooter>

Hi everybody,

Recently the following community group was created:
ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group

That seems relevant to the tasks we do in the MathOnWebPages CG since many
times we face the scenario where a feature is supposedly available in ARIA
but, then, the AT behaves in an unexpected way. For example, aria-label
does not override the text of an element.

For that reason, I suggest you join the ARIA and Assistive Technologies
Community Group. <https://www.w3.org/community/aria-at/>

Regards,

Dani from WIRIS

-- 

MathType 7 is out! Check the new version at wiris.com/mathtype 
<http://www.wiris.com/mathtype?utm_source=emailfooter>

Hi everyone,

Apologies to the wider group but there were no minutes or recording of this
meeting. We discussed the pros&cons of several approaches for
standardization of stretchy constructions in CSS.

Best,
Peter.

Hi everyone,

Apologies to the wider group but there were no minutes or recording of this
meeting.

Best,
Peter.

Regrets. Travel day.
--joanie

On 11/22/18 4:45 AM, Peter Krautzberger wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> It's Thanksgiving in the US so we are not having a main CG meeting this
> week. We will also not have a meeting on December 20 (again for holiday
> related reasons).
> 
> To compensate, we will have a meeting on December 6.
> 
> The Google Calendar has been updated (but lacks dial-in information
> right now -- we'll update that in time).
> 
> Best,
> Peter.

Hi everyone,

Here are the minutes from the meeting of the CSS task force this week.

Best,
Peter.

# Math On Web CSS TF, 2018-11-19

* Present: Dani, Peter
* Dani: baseline follow up
  * Peter: do we just point them to the spec we found?
  * Dani: not enough, we need to align at child still
  * same for mathaxis
* Dani: next steps?
  * Peter: hoping Arno might have more suggestions from the rest of TAPC
  * https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1339#issuecomment-300293130
    * tabatkins and fantasai agreed there
      * parent has "I have special baseline"
      * child has "I'm the baseline"
  * Dani: I ran into the following: what if multiple children say "I'm the
baseline"
    * Peter: oh, good problem.
      * could we find CSS specs that might have a similar problem?
      * eg. subgrids -but two subgrids don't create conflicts.
  * Dani: then there's looking through baseline container, finding a child
that is baseline container
    * seems like it should stop looking?
    * Peter: eg nested fractions
  * Peter: yes, unless this child is itself a baseline container
    * bottom up: the child informs the parent but that parent might inform
its parent etc
  * [some discussion around this]
  * Peter: in terms of what to do with multiple children declaring
baselines, we just choose first or last and let CSS WG say what they prefer
  * Dani: maybe we should continue the thread with this
    * Peter: sounds good.
  * Dani: then what's next?
    * Peter: after discussion with Arno, maybe a Houdini-based polyfill
      * before going to a C++ patch example
    * Dani: Houdini is a bit different though
      * basically, "this box has a completely different layout"
    * Peter: I need to read up :)
    * Dani: but seems doable
* Dani: about stretchy constructions
  * maybe we can file an issue
  * we probably need to come to an agreement whether border glyphs are good
enough
  * Peter: I don't mind either way, I think border glyphs have independent
use cases and any implementation opens up the path to the other
    * if they're interested, I'd put our foucs there
    * Dani: sure but perhaps other options are just as interesting
      * we should at least try
  * [some discussion]
  * Dani: ACTION let's gather some ideas (eg. in a google doc)
    * be creative, figure out what we can do
    * we need to figure out
* [some discussion about stretchy vs size switching]

Hi everyone,

Here are the minutes from the meeting of the accessibility task force this
week.

Best,
Peter.

# Math On Web a11y TF, 2018-11-19

* Present: Dani, Peter, Joanie, Charles, Sina,
* Dani: at TPAC, there was a discussion about joining ARIA
  * Follow up
  * Joanie: still with Michael
    * due diligence check necessary
    * what's the status?
    * Peter: Arno is "retired", Volker not associated, is already invited
expert for svga11y I think, I was an invited expert at PWG/DPUBIG until
recently
      * Joanie: ACTION will follow up
      * Sina: ping as well
* Dani: who wants to join this work? Seems like a lot
  * Joanie: my plan was to say "have math stuff once a month" to reduce load
  * Dani: sounds good.
* Peter: I didn't have time to write up stuff on the walker stuff
  * Sina: what's the link again?
    * Peter: https://krautzource.github.io/mathjax-sre-walker/
      * added a note that this demo needs ES6 modules (for dev ease, not
production)
      * Sina: what platform works?
      * Peter: Firefox, Chrome with NVDA is good, JAWS ok
      * Joanie: FF+ORCA seems good [use Fedora 28 not 29]
* Sina: what came up at the TPAC meetings?
  * Peter: just the Monday meeting as part of APA
  * Peter: there should be minutes somewhere...
    * Charles: https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-apa-minutes.html#item02
  * Peter: we went through
https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki/%5Ba11y-TF%5D-TPAC-2018-preparations
    * APA was generally positive in response
    * plan to have some CG members become invited experts
* Peter: no meeting on US Thanksgiving
* Sina: calendar dates with zoom links in location would be very helpful

Hi everyone,

It's Thanksgiving in the US so we are not having a main CG meeting this
week. We will also not have a meeting on December 20 (again for holiday
related reasons).

To compensate, we will have a meeting on December 6.

The Google Calendar has been updated (but lacks dial-in information right
now -- we'll update that in time).

Best,
Peter.