Planet MathML

Nice paper, Paul.

Along similar lines, you might find the paper "What is an Equation?"
interesting, including Chaucer, internationalization and decidabiliy.

http://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~smwatt/pub/reprints/2012-synasc-equations.pdf

Stephen



On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 4:27 PM Paul Libbrecht <paul@hoplahup.net> wrote:

> For the sake of completeness: the researchgate url shows a wrong author
> (Erica Melis has passed away so she can’t complain). A version with a
> fully-accessible preprint is here
> <https://hoplahup.net/paul_pubs/Multi-Culti-AI-Society.html>.
>
> The link at the publisher is this one
> <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00146-009-0215-4>; the volume
> <https://link.springer.com/journal/146/volumes-and-issues/24-3> has other
> interesting articules in the direction.
>
> Paul
>
> On 25 Jan 2023, at 21:21, Neil Soiffer wrote:
>
> I was recently reminded of a 2009 paper that discussed
> internationalization (with a focus on ActiveMath): Culturally adapted
> mathematics education with ActiveMath
> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225449328_Culturally_adapted_mathematics_education_with_ActiveMath>.
> It focuses more on course generation than on math notation, but it does
> have a number of notational examples in the early sections that might be
> useful to people trying to understand what is different in different
> countries.
>
>     Neil
>
>

Just a reminder that next Monday we're meeting again for MathML-Core - I've
created an issue/agenda at https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/185..
If you have other things you'd like to add, please add it there.





-- 
Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com

For the sake of completeness: the researchgate url shows a wrong author 
(Erica Melis has passed away so she can’t complain).  A version with a 
fully-accessible preprint is 
[here](https://hoplahup.net/paul_pubs/Multi-Culti-AI-Society.html).

The link at the publisher is [this 
one](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00146-009-0215-4); the 
[volume](https://link.springer.com/journal/146/volumes-and-issues/24-3) 
has other interesting articules in the direction.

Paul



On 25 Jan 2023, at 21:21, Neil Soiffer wrote:

> I was recently reminded of a 2009 paper that discussed 
> internationalization
> (with a focus on ActiveMath): Culturally adapted mathematics education 
> with
> ActiveMath
> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225449328_Culturally_adapted_mathematics_education_with_ActiveMath> 
> .
> It focuses more on course generation than on math notation, but it 
> does
> have a number of notational examples in the early sections that might 
> be
> useful to people trying to understand what is different in different
> countries.
>
>     Neil

I was recently reminded of a 2009 paper that discussed internationalization
(with a focus on ActiveMath): Culturally adapted mathematics education with
ActiveMath
<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225449328_Culturally_adapted_mathematics_education_with_ActiveMath>.
It focuses more on course generation than on math notation, but it does
have a number of notational examples in the early sections that might be
useful to people trying to understand what is different in different
countries.

    Neil

Neil,

Unless I missed it, your postings below do not include the URL of the MathML group.  Do you have the W3C URL for where you meet?

Cheers,
Peter Shikli
Access2online Inc.
29030 SW Town Center Loop East
Suite 202-187
Wilsonville, OR 97070
503-570-6831 - pshikli@access2online.com
Cell: 949-677-3705
FAX: 503-582-8337
www.access2online.com
Prison inmates helping the internet become accessible

-------- Message --------

Subject:        Minutes: MathML Full Meeting, 12 Jan, 2023      
Resent-Date:    Sun, 15 Jan 2023 04:52:44 +0000 
Resent-From:    www-math@w3.org     
Date:   Sat, 14 Jan 2023 20:52:22 -0800 
From:   Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>      
To:     www-math@w3.org <www-math@w3.org> 

Attendees:

- Neil Soiffer
- Louis Maher
- David Carlisle
- Bruce Miller
- Deyan Ginev
- Steve Noble
- Murray Sargent
- Bert Bos
- Sam Dooley
Regrets

- David Farmer
Agenda1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
NS: The big news this week is that MathML in Chrome is out (After the meeting, Edge's update came out; Opera's update to 109 recently went to beta, so they will be a while)
NS: TPAC for 2023 was announced:
TPAC 2023 Hybrid Meeting 11-15 September 2023
Main in-person hub: Meliá Sevilla Hotel Calle Dr. Pedro de Castro, 1 41004 Sevilla Spain
NS: to BB: when do we need to ask for a charter extension?
BB: said that you could ask for an extension a few weeks before the current charter expired. He said that the usual extension period was for three months.
NS: wanted a year extension. He did not want a new charter.
BB: If you want/need a new charter, it is best to start now.
DC: We might get out a CR out this month. Our extension would say until we got to PR.
NS: suggested asking for a three-month charter extension, then asking for a new charter.
NS: We will not get out a PR out before the end of the summer.
NS: Once you release a CR, the implementation may take a long time.
DG: Is there an option to make the core spec a living document that can be continuously updated?
NS: Working drafts are often what the implementers work with.
BB: That is a possibility with a new charter. It is not in our current charter.
BB: This is called an evergreen spec.
DG: Evergreen Standards - W3C Wiki: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Evergreen_Standards
DC: Do we need a charter forever?
BB: No, charters end.
DC: The schema and polyfills have been moved to the w3c repo.
We discussed the XML Entity Definitions for Characters (3rd Edition) document: (https://w3c.github.io/xml-entities/)
DC: Only the entity names are normative. The changes are to keep up with Unicode entities, and that part is not normative.
NS: Can we publish it as an updated recommendation?
NS: What do we need to do to make a third edition of this document? The changes we made are only editorial.
DC: The Unicode version changed from version 11 to 15.
BB: We only need this group to agree on the publication.
Consensus Publish the "XML Entity Definitions for Characters" as a third edition.
NS: Is some review needed?
DC: We have a change record.
ACTION BB will find out what is necessary to make the document a proposed recommendation.
We had a discussion on fonts.
2. Deprecating mstyle in core? in full? New thoughts?
This was held over until next week.
We will also talk about the charter next week.
3. Going through the open intent issues
in the hopes of closing or coalescing some.
Chemistry and semantics/AT (issue #93)
NS: Chemical expressions can look like math but are pronounced differently. This issue will be merged with the "isa" discussion, Issue 426.
DG: He thinks isa can handle this. If isa is not used, then we would have to re-open this issue.
n-ary Intent discussion (Issue #253)
What happens when you have a long expression?
DG: We can fully mark it up with intent. This would be big. It is better to just read it in the order it is printed. Do not use intent on it.
Closed as completed.
Need a scheme/philosophy/plan for unifying/breaking apart "level 0" names (Issue #254)
We discussed the example of an interval. How do you specify the interval as an open or closed interval? How do you specify if each side is open or closed?
We do not have a general philosophy, but more names are better as long as speech makes good use of them.
Close.
Are intents needed in intent-core for "self-describing" things? (Issue #255)
We considered trig functions like sin and cos which are self-describing.
WG agreed that self-describing functions do not need to be in core. But it would be useful to have a table to remind AT that they need to deal with sin, csc, etc.
Closed.
Make the sample presentation of Strict Content use intent (issue 284)
Should the sample presentations use intent?
DG: You can use things that are not in core because we are open ended.
BM: We should be using good MathML markup if needed.
DC: Add judicious intents where needed.
DG: Take no action. It is out of scope. Close the issue.
NS: This is about putting intent on presentation and not on content.
We did not close issue 285. NS replaced the intent label with a label that said, "it needs specification".
We will continue considering the issues next week.
NS: is looking forward to the "isa", "table" and "internationalization" discussions.

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Dennis Müller
   - Murray Sargent
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Bruce Miller
   - Sam Dooley
   - David Farmer

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Bert Bos
   - Deyan Ginev

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: The current version of Microsoft Edge now supports MathML. The Opera
browser will soon support MathML.

Missing from minutes? Did we resolve Intent for "mtable" constructs #337
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/337>

LM: Did not find any reference to deciding on issue 337 in the minutes.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-2-charter-discussion-what-needs-to-be-changed->2.
Charter discussion: what needs to be changed?

NS: We need a new charter.

NS: reviewed the charter using his shared screen.

PL: We have not made any progress with internationalization for MathML. We
have not been able to coordinate with other groups on internationalization.
Internationalization could be a motivator for the new charter.

NS: Internationalization is in scope.

NS: reviewed the bullet points stating the charter goals.

DC: We can say that we have made satisfactory progress on core. The goal of
the next charter could be core level two.

DC: We may not have a working draft by May.

NS: considered developing a test suite of about twenty examples showing how
intent can be used to generate speech.

NS: has some personal tests, but they are not in the form that could be
referred to in the specification.

NS: Do we have an example that shows how AriaLabel interacts with intent?
No.

DC: We should not commit to MathML 5. The goal of the new charter should be
to complete work on MathML 4.

DC: We should leave the current charter scope unchanged. We should say that
we will finish the work described in the current charter.

PL: Should we add a study for a multi-language survey? This might be a
scope item for our next charter.

DC: We want time to finish our MathML 4 work. MathML 5 would take another
three years at least.

*ACTION* NS will have a discussion with BK to get the core group to
consider the next charter.

NS: We have many items that say need spec. We have plenty of work without
changing the scope.

NS: We should drop search because no one is working on it.

NS: Intent may help content markup which might help searchability, but
intent is for AT speech generation.

PL: We could see if public search engines would work on intent.

PL: A sight specific search might work on intent. NIST might have such a
search engine.

BM: NIST search engines do do some indexing.

NS: Should we leave search in the specification goals?

DM: talked about a search engine.

NS: Can we say that we might get a search capability?

BM's and DG's group are working on search.

NS: In an expression, if there is no intent, NS will make guesses as to the
meaning of the expression. He considers this better than just reading what
is in the text.

BM: This search capability would not happen in our charter's lifetime.

DC's group is focusing on pdf tagging. In their next release, math
expressions can be tagged with the text in the TeX source.

NS: If the TeX had a macro in it, DC's method would grab the TeX text and
put it into the pdf document as a tag.

DC: There is a problem in detecting where an expression ends.

NS: This does not affect our scope.

NS: It is a matter of getting the authors to use the appropriate macros.

NS: Can your macros create intent?

DF: Each math topic area does not require many macros because you have
subject area assumptions to guide the intent translation.

DM: People working in a limited mathematical area will have a limited
number of macros which they use. Because math has many subject areas, you
will have to work with many macros.

DF: If you work in an area where you know all the macros, then you will use
them. If you are working in an area which has hundreds of macros, you may
not use them because of the difficulty of remembering, or finding, the
correct macro.

DM: A search engine might solve this problem.

NS: Do we have anything new to add to the scope?

SW: Do we have mechanisms, to align equations with one another, when the
equations are embedded in text?

NS: We do have an IndentAlign attribute, which uses an ID, to help align
equations with one another.

NS: He does not know how well the IndentAlign attribute works.

NS: In core level two, line breaking will be discussed. hopefully, it will
agree with MathML 3. MathJax might have implemented this alignment.

SW: We should add alignment as part of the scope.

SW: What is the best way to add equation numbers?

NS: mlabeltr was taken out of core.

MUS: There is a way to add an equation number by using an array. This is
the single expression mode. It is not used in the paragraph mode.

MUS: In his technique, Linebreaking is not implemented. It works for simple
cases. The math layout engine has two levels: single equation mode and
paragraph mode. This technique was cut in 2007.

NS: CSS has counters. Aligning equation numbers with their corresponding
equations is difficult. Can CSS capture this alignment?

DC: Use an HTML table.

SW: Is this something that should be addressed? To make a table to add
equation numbers tends to defeat accessibility. You also want to reference
figures and tables with numbers. People might like to click on an equation
number and jump to the equation.

NS: Is there a pure CSS method to make equation numbers without using a
table?

DC: It is difficult to have equation numbers in multi-line expressions.

DC: If you have a multi-line equation, you want to find the baseline and
float the number to the edge of the page. CSS has problems with this.

NS: Can you use an ID to position the equation number?

DC: You can do simple cases.

*ACTION* Add equation numbers to the MathML core discussion, unless CSS
already does this.

NS: Malign is used for vertical alignment, and not horizontal alignment.

BM: This is not math at all. It is something at the document level and not
at the math level. This needs rethinking to see how math zones interact
with the document.

NS: next considered out-of-scope items.

NS: Leave content alone except for changes that might affect presentation
MathML.

SD: Do not make changes that would break previous versions of content
MathML.

DC: The scope is to finish MathML 4. Do not change anything.

NS: We should have a deliverable to have a first draft of core level 2.

NS: We can do a cr next month. We just need to work a little on intent.

*ACTION* DC: said that we should readopt the entity spec.

NS: People should read over the charter and be ready to talk about it next
week.

NS: will start writing the new charter.

On 2023-01-19 11:50, Louis Maher wrote:
> Hello Bert,
> 
> In the minutes of January 12, 2023, towards the bottom of the announcements section is:
> "Consensus Publish the "XML Entity Definitions for Characters" as a third edition.".

Thanks! Then I'll go ahead and send a publication request.



Bert
-- 
   Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/

   http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
   bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
   +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France

Hello Bert,

In the minutes of January 12, 2023, towards the bottom of the announcements section is:
"Consensus Publish the "XML Entity Definitions for Characters" as a third edition.".



Regards
Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
Email: ljmaher03@outlook.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Bert Bos <bert@w3.org> 
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2023 2:37 AM
To: www-math@w3.org
Subject: Re: Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

Regrets for today's meeting.


About updating the Rec for XML entity definitions[1]:

As the update requires no changes to implementations, it is indeed easy. 
We need:

1) A group decision to publish. Do we have one in the minutes already?

2) A document in the right format. I believe we have that. And if the checker finds errors, I'm sure I'll be able to fix them

3) A publication request from me to the W3C webmaster.

[1] https://w3c.github.io/xml-entities/




Bert
-- 
   Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/

   http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
   bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
   +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France

Regrets for today's meeting.


About updating the Rec for XML entity definitions[1]:

As the update requires no changes to implementations, it is indeed easy. 
We need:

1) A group decision to publish. Do we have one in the minutes already?

2) A document in the right format. I believe we have that. And if the 
checker finds errors, I'm sure I'll be able to fix them

3) A publication request from me to the W3C webmaster.

[1] https://w3c.github.io/xml-entities/




Bert
-- 
   Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/

   http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
   bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
   +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France

I’ll only attend the first 30 minutes.
Sorry for that.

Paul

On 19 Jan 2023, at 4:25, Neil Soiffer wrote:

> We meet at our standard time on Thursday: 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 
> 7pm
> Central European Time.
>
> The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" 
> mailing
> list 
> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> 
> for
> the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details 
> in
> their calendars.
>
> Agenda
> 1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
>     Missing from minutes? did we resolve Intent for "mtable" 
> constructs
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/337> #337
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/337>
> 2. Charter discussion: what needs to be changed?
> 3. More intent discussions
>    a) 409 internationalization 
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/409>
>    b) 426 isa <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/426>
> 4. Deprecating mstyle in core
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181> ? in full? New 
> thoughts?

 We meet at our standard time on Thursday: 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> for
the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in
their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
    Missing from minutes? did we resolve Intent for "mtable" constructs
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/337> #337
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/337>
2. Charter discussion: what needs to be changed?
3. More intent discussions
   a) 409 internationalization <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/409>
   b) 426 isa <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/426>
4. Deprecating mstyle in core
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181>? in full? New thoughts?

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Bruce Miller
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Steve Noble
   - Murray Sargent
   - Bert Bos
   - Sam Dooley

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-2#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - David Farmer

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-2#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-2#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: The big news this week is that MathML in Chrome is out (After the
meeting, Edge's update came out; Opera's update to 109 recently went to
beta, so they will be a while)

NS: TPAC for 2023 was announced:

TPAC 2023 Hybrid Meeting 11-15 September 2023

Main in-person hub: Meliá Sevilla Hotel Calle Dr. Pedro de Castro, 1 41004
Sevilla Spain

NS: to BB: when do we need to ask for a charter extension?

BB: said that you could ask for an extension a few weeks before the current
charter expired. He said that the usual extension period was for three
months.

NS: wanted a year extension. He did not want a new charter.

BB: If you want/need a new charter, it is best to start now.

DC: We might get out a CR out this month. Our extension would say until we
got to PR.

NS: suggested asking for a three-month charter extension, then asking for a
new charter.

NS: We will not get out a PR out before the end of the summer.

NS: Once you release a CR, the implementation may take a long time.

DG: Is there an option to make the core spec a living document that can be
continuously updated?

NS: Working drafts are often what the implementers work with.

BB: That is a possibility with a new charter. It is not in our current
charter.

BB: This is called an evergreen spec.

DG: Evergreen Standards - W3C Wiki:
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Evergreen_Standards

DC: Do we need a charter forever?

BB: No, charters end.

DC: The schema and polyfills have been moved to the w3c repo.

We discussed the XML Entity Definitions for Characters (3rd Edition)
document: (https://w3c.github.io/xml-entities/)

DC: Only the entity names are normative. The changes are to keep up with
Unicode entities, and that part is not normative.

NS: Can we publish it as an updated recommendation?

NS: What do we need to do to make a third edition of this document? The
changes we made are only editorial.

DC: The Unicode version changed from version 11 to 15.

BB: We only need this group to agree on the publication.

*Consensus* Publish the "XML Entity Definitions for Characters" as a third
edition.

NS: Is some review needed?

DC: We have a change record.

*ACTION* BB will find out what is necessary to make the document a proposed
recommendation.

We had a discussion on fonts.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-2#cp-md-0-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-181-deprecating-mstyle-in-core-a-in-full-new-thoughts->2.
Deprecating mstyle in core? <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181>
in full? New thoughts?

This was held over until next week.

We will also talk about the charter next week.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-2#cp-md-0-3-going-through-the-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-q-is-3aissue-is-3aopen-intent-label-3aintent-open-intent-issues-a->3.
Going through the open intent issues
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+intent+label%3Aintent>

in the hopes of closing or coalescing some.

Chemistry and semantics/AT (issue #93)

NS: Chemical expressions can look like math but are pronounced differently.
This issue will be merged with the "isa" discussion, Issue 426.

DG: He thinks isa can handle this. If isa is not used, then we would have
to re-open this issue.

n-ary Intent discussion (Issue #253)

What happens when you have a long expression?

DG: We can fully mark it up with intent. This would be big. It is better to
just read it in the order it is printed. Do not use intent on it.

Closed as completed.

Need a scheme/philosophy/plan for unifying/breaking apart "level 0" names
(Issue #254)

We discussed the example of an interval. How do you specify the interval as
an open or closed interval? How do you specify if each side is open or
closed?

We do not have a general philosophy, but more names are better as long as
speech makes good use of them.

Close.

Are intents needed in intent-core for "self-describing" things? (Issue #255)

We considered trig functions like sin and cos which are self-describing.

WG agreed that self-describing functions do not need to be in core. But it
would be useful to have a table to remind AT that they need to deal with
sin, csc, etc.

Closed.

Make the sample presentation of Strict Content use intent (issue 284)

Should the sample presentations use intent?

DG: You can use things that are not in core because we are open ended.

BM: We should be using good MathML markup if needed.

DC: Add judicious intents where needed.

DG: Take no action. It is out of scope. Close the issue.

NS: This is about putting intent on presentation and not on content.

We did not close issue 285. NS replaced the intent label with a label that
said, "it needs specification".

We will continue considering the issues next week.

NS: is looking forward to the "isa", "table" and "internationalization"
discussions.

On 11 Jan 2023, at 11:18, Brian Kardell wrote:

> The wikipedia presentation on MathML/browser compatibility/history for example
> really leaves something to be desired, it doesn't even mention Core, for
> example.  I'm sure there's just a lot out there we'll have to work on
> finding and correcting.
>
> I'm CC'ing my colleague Eric Meyer who was looking at the wikipedia page
> today and can probably also help with some of this here and there.

Hello all!  I'm happy to participate in any update work, whether as a copyeditor or even a sort of project coordinator.

I did update the Browser Support section of the Wikipedia MathML article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Browser_support) to mention the return of MathML to Chromium, but didn't try to correct anything else in that section since I wasn't confident of how things should be characterized in other browsers.  I also didn't try to add anything about MathML Core there or in the History section of the page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#History).  I'd be happy to take contributions from the group and add them to the page, or turn bullet points into prose for approval before adding to the page.  Whatever I can do to help set the record straight!


--
Eric A. Meyer - http://meyerweb.com/

The Chrome browser renders MathML, thanks to code by Igalia

Quite a lot has been done updating MDN, bcd data, various things referring
to MathML but there's quite a lot more to do to correct/improve what people
find, learn and understand here. We could use help, and the people on this
list are in some of the best positions to help with some of that. I'm not
really suggesting we create a 'task force' but  just the idea that a
subgroup of us could perhaps make some coordinated efforts together.   The
wikipedia presentation on MathML/browser compatibility/history for example
really leaves something to be desired, it doesn't even mention Core, for
example.  I'm sure there's just a lot out there we'll have to work on
finding and correcting.

I'm CC'ing my colleague Eric Meyer who was looking at the wikipedia page
today and can probably also help with some of this here and there.




-- 
Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com

MathML is back! A day for the history books.

For interested readers, you can also enjoy two community announcements
which commemorate the great achievement:

1. "Igalia Brings MathML Back to Chromium" by Igalia
https://www.igalia.com/2023/01/10/Igalia-Brings-MathML-Back-to-Chromium.html

2. "The Year of MathML" by the MathML Association
https://twitter.com/mathml3/status/1612881623510388738

My sincere congratulations to everyone who made this happen.

Kind regards,
Deyan


On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 3:13 PM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> Big day today: Chrome 109 with MathML support is out!!! Edge says it will
> release 109 "the week of Jan 12". A big thanks to Frédéric and the rest of
> the Igalia team for making this happen. Also thanks to Murray who made a
> significant financial contribution along with others who also contributed;
> a release now certainly wouldn't have happened without financial support to
> push the project forward. As the WG knows, there is still more work to do
> in terms of further features and also in terms of alignment of all the
> browsers to core. There is much more work to be done. Speaking of work to
> do...
>
> We meet at our standard time on Thursday: 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm
> Central European Time.
>
> The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math"
> mailing list
> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> for
> the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in
> their calendars.
>
> Agenda
> 1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
> 2. Deprecating mstyle in core
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181>? in full? New thoughts?
> 3. Going through the open intent issues
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+intent+label%3Aintent>in
> the hopes of closing or coalescing some
>
>

 Big day today: Chrome 109 with MathML support is out!!! Edge says it will
release 109 "the week of Jan 12". A big thanks to Frédéric and the rest of
the Igalia team for making this happen. Also thanks to Murray who made a
significant financial contribution along with others who also contributed;
a release now certainly wouldn't have happened without financial support to
push the project forward. As the WG knows, there is still more work to do
in terms of further features and also in terms of alignment of all the
browsers to core. There is much more work to be done. Speaking of work to
do...

We meet at our standard time on Thursday: 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> for
the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in
their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
2. Deprecating mstyle in core
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181>? in full? New thoughts?
3. Going through the open intent issues
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+intent+label%3Aintent>in
the hopes of closing or coalescing some

 1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

DG: First, arXiv published a new accessibility report, announcing an
intention to add an HTML variant for their articles. You can read it here:
https://info.arxiv.org/about/accessibility_research_report.html

DG: This can be a good dataset to test MathML Intent.

DG: The ar5iv preview has now been fully updated to MathML Core:
https://ar5iv.labs.arxiv.org/

DG: Second, there is a new JavaScript tool, called temml, which is
dedicated to convert TeX into native MathML Core. Available at:
https://temml.org/

PL: People should stop highlighting html5 and just call it html.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-1#cp-md-0-2-from-last-time->2.
From last time:
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-1#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-182-deprecating-math-variant-a->Deprecating
math-variant <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/182>

Consensus: The only allowed Mathvariant value is normal.

NS: may have to do a polyfill because of the mathvariant change.

NS: We will have to decide if we want to deprecate mathvariant in MathML
full.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-1#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-180-issuecomment-1371785720-columnspan-gt-colspan-a->columnspan
-> colspan
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/180#issuecomment-1371785720>

NS: In core we will have colspan and mention columnspan but say that
columnspan is deprecated.

NS: There are several other attributes which begin with "column". Fred said
that we should not push them into core until someone says they need these
attributes.

NS: said that Fred said that we should wait to see if CSS can handle them.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-1#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-181-deprecating-mstyle-in-core-a-in-full-new-thoughts->Deprecating
mstyle in core? <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181> in full?
New thoughts?

NS: Does anyone have new thoughts about mstyle?

DG: no longer questions that mstyle should be deprecated. His only question
is when should it be deprecated?

DC: It would take a lot of changes to deprecate mstyle.

NS: Does anyone use it?

DC thinks not.

NS: would like to see some usage statistics on mstyle.

We did not decide on the deprecation of mstyle.

NS: We will discuss mstyle next week.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-1#cp-md-0-3-taking-stock-of-where-we-are-at->3.
Taking stock of where we are at:
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-1#cp-md-0-64-open-issues-8-of-which-have-no-labels-13-have-39-intent-39-labels>64
open issues, 8 of which have no labels, 13 have 'intent' labels

We will go through some of the open issues, with a focus on closing,
narrowing, or coalescing as many as possible, starting with unlabeled
issues followed by intent issues. [If you have a favorite or opinions on
some, please bring it up and we can begin with them]

MOS: Suggested assigning issues to people and have them report back to the
committee.

NS: shared his screen and reviewed the eight unlabeled issues. NS went back
in time to the beginning of our committee and moved forward.

**ACTION:* NS: asked DC and BB to create a polyfills W3C polyfills repo so
that pertinent issues can be moved to this section.

One issue dealt with the proper symbols to be used for accents. Some people
thought that the spec should specify the marks to be used for accents. The
spec chapter 7 discusses this.

DC: discussed this topic.

Consensus: Chapter 7.4 will be rewritten with this issue in mind.

We next discussed issue 260.

DG: suggested that we close issue 84. This was done.

DG: said we should not consider issue 257 because it is outside of our
spec. This issue deals with aliases.

NS: To prepare for next week's discussion, NS asked people to look at the
issues labeled with intent. Perhaps some of these issues could be closed or
merged.

NS: By the end of the month, we need to do something about a charter
extension. NS will investigate the procedure for doing this.

Regrets for me. I have a doctor's appointment during this time slot today.

--Steve




Steve Noble
Principal Researcher, Accessibility
Psychometrics & Testing Services

Pearson

502 969 3088
steve.noble@pearson.com<mailto:steve.noble@pearson.com>

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/xFjftXlwMzpdFeTtDgc4_IwyMYm8ThtQHIsgElkS8fyiCO2M7ZM0WaO7r2uy-bmKAe5S2sIcg7d-mwbD4ArkJhyafHke-SgJ2ui8DoGoBhZw4YIyWeK3LUozNMwBff4JR2tdu8nZ2fvoNvkkA06KNw9-s3P9UvYsHSTphHss6X0=s0-d-e1-ft#http://accessibility4school.pearson.com/access/4c49fe02-e204-46b4-b6f0-82f5a3f159cb/pearson-accessibility.jpg]

________________________________
From: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 12:25 AM
To: www-math@w3.org <www-math@w3.org>
Subject: Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

I hope everyone had a good break and that you are energized to wrap up MathML issues so we can move the spec to CR in a few months. We start the new year back on our weekly schedule.

We meet at our standard time on Thursday: 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing list<https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> for the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
   From last time:

  *   Deprecating math-variant
  *   columnspan -> colspan<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/180#issuecomment-1371785720>
  *   Deprecating mstyle in core<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181>? in full? New thoughts?

2. Taking stock of where we are at:

  *   64 open issues, 8 of which have no labels, 13 have 'intent' labels
  *   We will go through some of the open issues, with a focus on closing, narrowing or coalescing as many as possible, starting with unlabeled issues followed by intent issues. [If you have a favorite or opinions on some, please bring it up and we can begin with them]

I hope everyone had a good break and that you are energized to wrap up
MathML issues so we can move the spec to CR in a few months. We start the
new year back on our weekly schedule.

We meet at our standard time on Thursday: 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> for
the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in
their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
   From last time:

   - Deprecating math-variant <We meet at our standard time on Thursday:
   10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm Central European Time. The meeting details
   were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing list for the group.
   The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in their
   calendars. Agenda 1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports>
   - columnspan -> colspan
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/180#issuecomment-1371785720>
   - Deprecating mstyle in core
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181>? in full? New thoughts?

2. Taking stock of where we are at:

   - 64 open issues, 8 of which have no labels, 13 have 'intent' labels
   - We will go through some of the open issues, with a focus on closing,
   narrowing or coalescing as many as possible, starting with unlabeled issues
   followed by intent issues. [If you have a favorite or opinions on some,
   please bring it up and we can begin with them]