Planet MathML

Dear Advisory Committee Representatives, Team Contact, 

This is a reminder that the W3C Patent Policy exclusion opportunity
has closed for the following Recommendation Track document, 150 days after
publication of the First Public Working Draft.

  This specification was produced by:
      - the Math Working Group
  
The Exclusion Draft for this document, per section 5.2.6 of the
Process [1] and section 4.1 of the Patent Policy [2], is
https://www.w3.org/TR/2022/WD-mathml4-20220908/
the latest Working Draft published within 90 days after the First
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Summary information for this group related to the W3C Patent Policy is
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If you have any questions or need further information, please contact,
for the Math Working Group:
    Bert Bos <bert@w3.org>
  
Thank you,

For Tim Berners-Lee, W3C Director;
Xueyuan Jia, W3C Marketing & Communications

[1] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/#WGCharter
[2] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy/#sec-exclusion-with

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 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Patrick Ion
   - David Farmer
   - Steve Noble
   - Bert Bos
   - Dennis Müller
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Cary Supalo
   - David Carlisle
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Sam Dooley
   - Murray Sargent
   - Bruce Miller

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: The Opera browser has picked up the chrome implementation.

SN: Pearson needs line breaking to enhance accessibility. It is not
supported in core.

NS: For things to move forward, either somebody needs to do the
implementation, or somebody needs to pay to do the implementation.

NS: Line breaking is on the table for core level 2.

SN: will let his management know these facts.

NS: There is a polyfill that can provide line breaking.

PL: On the email list that discusses media types, there is a professor who
is trying to register generic media types for elementary things, such as
numbers in operations.

PL: says there is no need for this.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-2-charter-discussion-a-walk-through-with-some-quot-live-quot-changes-10-minutes-max->2.
Charter discussion: a walk through with some "live" changes (10 minutes max)

NS: started reviewing "Other Deliverables"

SN, NS, and SD will work on MathML accessibility.

NS: removed search from the deliverables.

NS: discussed the item: A living catalog for annotations beyond those
defined in a MathML 4 recommendation. After a discussion, some of this
wording was changed. We want an open Catalog for adding new intents.

NS: next considered the item: Sample code for conversion of annotated
Presentation MathML to an external form such as speech and/or Content
MathML. People did not want to over promise on this issue.

DC: There are some cases where it's better not to put intent on, just let
the default just do the right thing. We do not want to commit ourselves to
put intent everywhere on everything.

NS: It seems like providing sample code is setting ourselves up for
something that we can't really do. We should just state our expectations
for defaults.

DG: This is the most difficult thing we have left to do. He wants to push
this off the charter list because this is just setting ourselves up for
something that we can't really do. This effort may require thousands of
rules.

DG: Let's push it off of the official charter list, and if we can do it, we
can always include it later as a bonus.

PL: We are saying that some examples will be delivered. We are not
promising completeness.

NS: The goal of writing down defaults is to say that this is the minimum
amount of interpretation that AT should be able to process.

DG: Drop it because if we gave some examples, then people would argue that
we did not choose the right examples.

*ACTION* PL: will look to see if we already have an issue on this. If we do
not have an issue on this, then PL will open one.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-3-continue-intent-discussions->3.
Continue intent discussions.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-a-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-409-409-internationalization-a->a)
409 internationalization <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/409>

-- Can anyone come up with a semi-complete list of known intents?

NS: MUS: shared is list with the group. Most of the things on his list were
Unicode values. They were not really a list of intents because the list
preceeds intent by many years. For the part that was potentially useful for
intents, it was not a complete list of intents. It had around 40 intents.

DF: is opposed to the TeX converter producing an international string.

We started a discussion about intent translations.

DF: If you have a person, reading a math document in Spanish, he wants to
hear his intent in Spanish also. How is this done. There are two ways. 1.
The initial creator of the document prepares the document, including
intents, in Spanish. 2. The author, creates the document in his own
language. When the document is translated, the intents are not translated.
When the reader accesses the document, the AT reads the standard Spanish
text, and the AT translates the intent into Spanish.

NS: did some google translate tests. The translator took about 0.1 seconds
per word to translate the document. NS: said that the reader of the
document expects his translations to be returned to his screen in around
0.1 seconds. For this reason, an on-the-fly translation of intents is not
practical, whereas the document author has all the time he needs to
translate the intent values.

DF: said that he recommends looking up the intent from a list of
pre-translated intents. We could develop a list of intents, and a local
language list of those intent translations could be provided. The AT could
then provide an intent translation in real time using word lookup.

NS: tell me all the words that need translating. NS is dubious that such a
general list could be made.

NS: The document author knows what needs to be translated. The author's
listed of translated intent words is small.

MUS: Take the common words, put them in English, and have lookup tables to
put them into the local language.

MUS: said that this would give you 99% of the words you need.

MUS: developed such a list eight years ago.

NS: We need a list of intent values for translation. The list might be
thousands of words long.

MUS: put up a list and people can add to it as necessary.

DG: did start on such a list based on Khan academy math classes.

PL: What we are talking about is a list of intent names and their
pronunciations.

NS: As an AT developer, I need to know apriori what the possible intent
values are in order to be able to build this table of translations.

NS: We are just talking about core and not the open list.

DG: Both pieces are important.

MUS: We need an extensible set. The core set should be translated ahead of
time. translating a single word may not use the math context. we should
translate the important terms using the math context. This local language
list could be given to the AT. This list should be open.

DG: Suppose I write in Bulgarian with Bulgarian intents, for a Bulgarian
audience. then I would use macros that tell the AT to use my Bulgarian
intents and not to translate them.

NS: This reminds me that knowing the language of the document and
overriding that via the lang attribute is something we need consider so
that if the language of the intent differs from the language of the
document, it is noted on via a lang attribute.

DF: It is our job to provide the long list and the translations.

NS: We cannot translate into many languages. but we do need to develop a
list.

DG: So, Facebook has this model with 200 languages. It does a nice job, I
tried 5 languages, and each of them were translated well. The translator
did not use tables.

DG: So both the table look-up procedure and the AI approach are important,
and you shouldn't predicate what methods going to get used, because I think
both symbolic and your own methods have interesting practical applications.

From Deyan Ginev to Everyone: https://huggingface.co/facebook/nllb-200-3.3B

PL: Thinks that our group could translate intents into six languages.

NS: would like to get the lists of intents before working out the details
of translating.

BM: Internationalization means we can deal with documents in multiple
languages. it does not mean we can automatically translate between
languages. what level are we aiming for?

BM: We have been considering a minimal dictionary for things that need
special treatment.

From Patrick D F Ion to Everyone: It seems to me that the WG can certainly
already do 6 or more languages from native speakers, and knows enough close
friends

MUS: This would argue for things not in the core list. Elementary things
must be on the list.

DC: We are over thinking this. Let us get a list of fifty in ten values and
set up the translation infrastructure to work with this list. Then we can
grow the list as needed.

DC: We have not decided what we want to do with the list of words. we are
not making progress.

PL: We have agreement that a list is desirable.

NS: I am afraid that if we come up with such a list, that it will be
woefully incomplete and therefore not usable.

DF: We need a list so that we can start deciding what we will do with it.

*ACTION* DF: I'll start making a short list so that we can maybe get to the
next step, and I'll put all my top 10 on it.

NS: Please gather up all your macros that you're using for semantics and
include those.

DF: Yes.

NS: So, I hope we've made some progress in that. At least some people are
going to come up with lists. Paul, you have the action item of checking on
defaults for intense, whether we have an item about that, and if not to
create an issue.

PL: I will send you an email on this.

 We meet at our standard time on Thursday: 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> for
the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in
their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
2. Charter discussion: a walk through with some "live" changes (10 minutes
max)
3. Continue intent discussions
   a) 409 internationalization <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/409>
-- can anyone come up with a semi-complete list of known intents?
   b) 426 isa <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/426>
4. Deprecating mstyle in core
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181>? in full? New thoughts?

Murray,

Thanks for sharing that list. The reason for asking for the list is that we
need to decide whether it is feasible to come up with a complete "core"
list of "intent" values that every generator can produce and that every AT
can then translate. If it isn't on the list, then it isn't likely it will
be translated. If we can't come up with a list that people feel covers
enough basic math so that non English-speaking people feel they aren't
forced to figure out some English math speech, then it argues that
generators should be the ones that do the translations since the document
in which the math occurs is in the target language and contains a known set
of "intents" that can be translated by the author or translator.

We previously agreed that intent doesn't need to be given for Unicode chars
by default because they are self-voicing. Of course, some are  ambiguous
and need "intent" to resolve their meaning, but most don't. Unicode chars
do need a translation, but because Unicode has defined the characters, they
are known and can be translated during development by AT. Having a list of
characters that occur in K-14 books would be a huge help to AT developers
so they know which of the tens of thousands of characters need to be
translated.

Unfortunately, the linked list is mostly Unicode chars. The non-unicode
part is the Math Function Speech Table. Not counting the ordinals and trig
functions (which need translations but are probably not given as "intent"
values), it is about 75 entries long. Many of these entries are notational
names such as "fraction", "subscript", etc. Some describe Unicode char
names (e.g., "sans-serif"). Taking those out leaves us with probably less
than 60 names, at least ten of which are positional words such as "lower
limit", "base", and "radicand" which I assume are used for navigation
(again, they need translation but aren't given via "intent"). So that
leaves maybe 40 - 50 names that would be used for "intent". These include
"matrix", "overbar", and "absolute value".

This list seems WAY too short to be considered as coming close to a
comprehensive list for translation.

Murray -- this is not a criticism of you or your implementation (which was
not developed with "intent" in mind). It is a statement that I don't
believe this is remotely sufficient to form a basis for a list of "intent"
values if we want to tell AT "this is what needs to be translated" so that
a (say) French translation is as useful as the English version when someone
uses "intent" for K-14 math.

As an example of what is missing, our favorite simple example of ambiguity
that intent can resolve is "(a, b)". This can be "point", "open-interval",
or "gcd" among other things. None of those are in the list. If those aren't
in the known list of intent values, they likely can't be translated
(dynamic translation by calling google translate is likely too slow).

If we feel that AT needs to do the translation, we need to get a
comprehensive "core" list of intent values. Does anyone in the group think
that is feasible?

If it is not feasible, the only alternative is to have a short list of
"core intent" values and have the spec state that "intent" values not in
that list will likely not be translated.

    Neil




On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 12:03 PM Murray Sargent <
murrays@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote:

> At our meeting this past Thursday, Neil asked me to provide the list of
> math speech terms used in OfficeMath
> <https://devblogs.microsoft.com/math-in-office/officemath/> speech. Here
> it is: Math Speech Strings and Localization - Math in Office
> (microsoft.com)
> <https://devblogs.microsoft.com/math-in-office/math-speech-strings-and-localization/>.
> The list isn’t exhaustive, but it includes the most common words in English
> math speech, and the discussion explains how the list is localized into ~18
> languages. At some point, I’d like to add more terms notably those that we
> identify with a core MathML intent attribute.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Murray
>

At our meeting this past Thursday, Neil asked me to provide the list of math speech terms used in OfficeMath<https://devblogs.microsoft.com/math-in-office/officemath/> speech. Here it is: Math Speech Strings and Localization - Math in Office (microsoft.com)<https://devblogs.microsoft.com/math-in-office/math-speech-strings-and-localization/>. The list isn't exhaustive, but it includes the most common words in English math speech, and the discussion explains how the list is localized into ~18 languages. At some point, I'd like to add more terms notably those that we identify with a core MathML intent attribute.

Thanks,
Murray

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Bruce Miller
   - Stephen Watt
   - Murray Sargent
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Patrick Ion
   - Steve Noble
   - David Farmer
   - Paul Libbrech

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

LM: Said that using Zoom with the screen maximize greatly helps gain access
to Zoom controls. A user can maximize the Zoom meeting window for all
meetings by going to the Windows Zoom client, going to settings, general,
and tab to the item labeled "Enter full screen automatically when starting
or joining a meeting", and check that item. If you are in a Zoom meeting,
you can maximize the screen using the "alt f" command.

LM: also said: if you have Zoom menus open such as the attendance and chat
items, you can move rapidly between them by hitting f6.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-2-charter-discussion-a-walk-through-with-some-quot-live-quot-changes->2.
Charter discussion: a walk through with some "live" changes?

NS: brought up the MathML WG charter and shared his screen. We then began
discussing different parts of the charter.

NS: Our current charter says we are overhauling MathML 3.

NS: We should have a candidate recommendation (CR) for MathML 4 by the time
our present charter is closed.

NS: Our next charter will produce a full recommendation which will include
implementations of MathML 4.

SD: We are progressing MathML 4 towards recommendation status.

NS: Should we drop search because we are not working on it?

MOS: I've been working on some search, but it's not something which will be
completed in the next year.

No one objected to removing search for the new charter.

SW: How long have chemical formulas been in the charter? There are many
types of chemical formulas with diagrammatic aspects.

NS: Chemistry was part of the original charter.

SW: My feeling is that we overstepped on that one.

NS: We have talked about chemistry in the "isa" discussions.

NS: Chemistry can be thought of as notational things that fit in MathML.

SW: Our group may never work on describing structural formulas.

CS: If we do not consider the highly diagram oriented formulas, are we
totally taking chemistry out of scope?

SN: We should not say that we are only working on MathML for mathematics.
MathML can be used for many other things. We should still leave chemistry
in scope.

SN: MathML can be used for linear chemical equations.

SN: We should say that we will work on MathML notation which can be used in
chemistry.

PI: We only promised increased accessibility for chemistry. We do not say
how far we are going to get.

Under scope:

PL: wants to strengthen internationalization by consulting with the
international community.

SW: The internationalization scope item lets us also talk about
localization: about how different parts of the world describe the same
mathematical expressions differently.

NS: We are working on refinements to the mathematical markup and processing
model that enhances Accessibility.

SN: We will use the term deprecation, instead of removing, for items we
wish to retire.

MOS: One of our goals was to foster the adoption of content MathML.

NS: We do not want to talk about changing content MathML in this charter.
This is a subject for the MathML 5 effort. If we put changing content
MathML in our current scope, we would never finish in our allotted time.

MOS: When we are happy with intent, we might consider how to improve
content MathML.

DC: wants us to go to full recommendation by the fourth quarter of 2023.

NS: There are many implementations which need to be written for the full
recommendation. We will not get this done in 2023.

NS: said that BM's group has LaTeX producing MathML presentation core.

DC: It's depressing that we are forecasting taking 2 years to get from Cr
to rec.

DC wants us to get to CR by March and get to recommendation when the
charter runs out in May.

NS: Should we put out the end date in one year?

DC: We do not want to ask for another extension.

NS: We should say we are beginning to explore MathML 5. For example, we are
Collecting requirements for MathML 5.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-3-more-intent-discussions>3.
More intent discussions
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-a-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-409-409-internationalization-a->a)
409 internationalization <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/409>

NS: The core of this comes down to is intent an English-only specification
which is translated into other languages or is it intent meant to be spoken
the way it is in other languages.

NS: If you meant intent to be spoken in French or Bulgarian or Chinese,
then intent should be in French, Bulgarian or Chinese, and that's what gets
spoken.

NS: If you have an image in French, then the alt tag should be in French.

NS: If you think of a TeX to MathML converter, and somebody has \abs, and
it's going to get translated into absolute value in English, it also needs
to get translated into whatever the equivalent of absolute value is in
French, Chinese or Bulgarian.

DC: If intent is in the speaker's spoken language, then intent is there to
give mathematical structure.

NS: Division might be described with different words in the same language.
We will have some advisory pronunciation templates. We can use more words
to make things clear.

NS: In units, you don't say over, you say "per", for example miles per
gallon Or meters per second.

PL: We want to speak in a fashion that enhances accessibility.

PL: We would say 'absolute value' in the local language.

NS: How does AT know when something needs translating?

PL: Does intent contain language information?

PL: Intent should tell the AT if translation is required.

NS: Maybe we can always say you have to put a language tag on, it if it's
not English, but how do you know whether you need to do a translation or
not unless it matches something that you know about?

MUS: I'm just thinking about the way that we did math speak. We came out
with tokens, and then we have a library that's been localized into, I guess
they're about 18 languages now, we're thinking about raising it to 50
languages which take the tokens and speak the tokens in whatever language
is required. I don't think that's necessarily practical for MathML.

NS: So that you could have a very small core if everything is translated,
or you could have a large core if AT needs to know to do a translation.

DF: As someone who's going to take what the author provides and output
MathML, Am I supposed to know what the language is, or am I just supposed
to indicate the meaning of the author's intention? I don't see how it's
reasonable for me to do anything with what the language the reader wants to
hear.

NS: So, it's kind of bizarre that someone's written this textbook in
French, but the intent is not French. The intent should be translated.

DF: Okay, here's my answer. There's a textbook and there's a French
translation of this textbook. When I can convert that, I'm going to have to
figure out what are the French intent values? What's the French for a cross
product? What's the French for Cartesian product?

DF: Why can't AT do the translation?

NS: AT would need to know all the possible names that are generated so it
can do the translations. This is probably a large list..

NS: The alternative is that the TeX macro needs a French version that
specifies how to say abs in French.

DF: My French author is not going to go and figure out how to markup
MathML.

SW: Two thoughts. One is that we have lots of examples of HTML pages where
there are inclusions in other languages. I don't know what mechanisms exist
for code switching between languages for screen readers, but shouldn't we
be looking at that number one? Number two is that in various fields of
mathematics, we do not always translate all the words. For example, in
Hebrew one may keep the English vocabulary for graph theory but translate
the vocabulary for elementary mathematics. And so, I believe that we should
think very hard about this. One does not always translate English into
other languages or vice versa. We should investigate what mechanisms are
used elsewhere for "code switching" languages.

PL: Textbook publishers will want control over how things are said.

NS to MUS: Can we get the list of things that are translated. I'm not
asking for Microsoft to disclose all the translations they've done, what
I'm asking for is a list of all the things that you translate as an initial
starting point for Core.

MUS: I can certainly give you that list.

DC: By using underscores, we can force the AT to speak translated text.

DF: We need to know how to markup intent for a certain collection of
instructions. Do we need to get this for every single language?

NS: urges people to contribute to the internationalization issue between
meetings so that it can be resolved in a meeting.

NS: we also need to work on "isa" which has contention.

NS: to DF: Can you come up with a list of things that need to be
translated? MUS also has a list. Let us look at the overlap. This is the
list that AT should translate.

NS: We have a core meeting on Monday January 30, 2023.

NS: It takes at least two months to get the charter approved. We should
submit the new charter by the end of February 2023.

NS: We will also work on the charter next Thursday, February 2.

Nice paper, Paul.

Along similar lines, you might find the paper "What is an Equation?"
interesting, including Chaucer, internationalization and decidabiliy.

http://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~smwatt/pub/reprints/2012-synasc-equations.pdf

Stephen



On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 4:27 PM Paul Libbrecht <paul@hoplahup.net> wrote:

> For the sake of completeness: the researchgate url shows a wrong author
> (Erica Melis has passed away so she can’t complain). A version with a
> fully-accessible preprint is here
> <https://hoplahup.net/paul_pubs/Multi-Culti-AI-Society.html>.
>
> The link at the publisher is this one
> <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00146-009-0215-4>; the volume
> <https://link.springer.com/journal/146/volumes-and-issues/24-3> has other
> interesting articules in the direction.
>
> Paul
>
> On 25 Jan 2023, at 21:21, Neil Soiffer wrote:
>
> I was recently reminded of a 2009 paper that discussed
> internationalization (with a focus on ActiveMath): Culturally adapted
> mathematics education with ActiveMath
> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225449328_Culturally_adapted_mathematics_education_with_ActiveMath>.
> It focuses more on course generation than on math notation, but it does
> have a number of notational examples in the early sections that might be
> useful to people trying to understand what is different in different
> countries.
>
>     Neil
>
>

Just a reminder that next Monday we're meeting again for MathML-Core - I've
created an issue/agenda at https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/185..
If you have other things you'd like to add, please add it there.





-- 
Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com

For the sake of completeness: the researchgate url shows a wrong author 
(Erica Melis has passed away so she can’t complain).  A version with a 
fully-accessible preprint is 
[here](https://hoplahup.net/paul_pubs/Multi-Culti-AI-Society.html).

The link at the publisher is [this 
one](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00146-009-0215-4); the 
[volume](https://link.springer.com/journal/146/volumes-and-issues/24-3) 
has other interesting articules in the direction.

Paul



On 25 Jan 2023, at 21:21, Neil Soiffer wrote:

> I was recently reminded of a 2009 paper that discussed 
> internationalization
> (with a focus on ActiveMath): Culturally adapted mathematics education 
> with
> ActiveMath
> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225449328_Culturally_adapted_mathematics_education_with_ActiveMath> 
> .
> It focuses more on course generation than on math notation, but it 
> does
> have a number of notational examples in the early sections that might 
> be
> useful to people trying to understand what is different in different
> countries.
>
>     Neil

I was recently reminded of a 2009 paper that discussed internationalization
(with a focus on ActiveMath): Culturally adapted mathematics education with
ActiveMath
<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225449328_Culturally_adapted_mathematics_education_with_ActiveMath>.
It focuses more on course generation than on math notation, but it does
have a number of notational examples in the early sections that might be
useful to people trying to understand what is different in different
countries.

    Neil

Neil,

Unless I missed it, your postings below do not include the URL of the MathML group.  Do you have the W3C URL for where you meet?

Cheers,
Peter Shikli
Access2online Inc.
29030 SW Town Center Loop East
Suite 202-187
Wilsonville, OR 97070
503-570-6831 - pshikli@access2online.com
Cell: 949-677-3705
FAX: 503-582-8337
www.access2online.com
Prison inmates helping the internet become accessible

-------- Message --------

Subject:        Minutes: MathML Full Meeting, 12 Jan, 2023      
Resent-Date:    Sun, 15 Jan 2023 04:52:44 +0000 
Resent-From:    www-math@w3.org     
Date:   Sat, 14 Jan 2023 20:52:22 -0800 
From:   Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>      
To:     www-math@w3.org <www-math@w3.org> 

Attendees:

- Neil Soiffer
- Louis Maher
- David Carlisle
- Bruce Miller
- Deyan Ginev
- Steve Noble
- Murray Sargent
- Bert Bos
- Sam Dooley
Regrets

- David Farmer
Agenda1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
NS: The big news this week is that MathML in Chrome is out (After the meeting, Edge's update came out; Opera's update to 109 recently went to beta, so they will be a while)
NS: TPAC for 2023 was announced:
TPAC 2023 Hybrid Meeting 11-15 September 2023
Main in-person hub: Meliá Sevilla Hotel Calle Dr. Pedro de Castro, 1 41004 Sevilla Spain
NS: to BB: when do we need to ask for a charter extension?
BB: said that you could ask for an extension a few weeks before the current charter expired. He said that the usual extension period was for three months.
NS: wanted a year extension. He did not want a new charter.
BB: If you want/need a new charter, it is best to start now.
DC: We might get out a CR out this month. Our extension would say until we got to PR.
NS: suggested asking for a three-month charter extension, then asking for a new charter.
NS: We will not get out a PR out before the end of the summer.
NS: Once you release a CR, the implementation may take a long time.
DG: Is there an option to make the core spec a living document that can be continuously updated?
NS: Working drafts are often what the implementers work with.
BB: That is a possibility with a new charter. It is not in our current charter.
BB: This is called an evergreen spec.
DG: Evergreen Standards - W3C Wiki: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Evergreen_Standards
DC: Do we need a charter forever?
BB: No, charters end.
DC: The schema and polyfills have been moved to the w3c repo.
We discussed the XML Entity Definitions for Characters (3rd Edition) document: (https://w3c.github.io/xml-entities/)
DC: Only the entity names are normative. The changes are to keep up with Unicode entities, and that part is not normative.
NS: Can we publish it as an updated recommendation?
NS: What do we need to do to make a third edition of this document? The changes we made are only editorial.
DC: The Unicode version changed from version 11 to 15.
BB: We only need this group to agree on the publication.
Consensus Publish the "XML Entity Definitions for Characters" as a third edition.
NS: Is some review needed?
DC: We have a change record.
ACTION BB will find out what is necessary to make the document a proposed recommendation.
We had a discussion on fonts.
2. Deprecating mstyle in core? in full? New thoughts?
This was held over until next week.
We will also talk about the charter next week.
3. Going through the open intent issues
in the hopes of closing or coalescing some.
Chemistry and semantics/AT (issue #93)
NS: Chemical expressions can look like math but are pronounced differently. This issue will be merged with the "isa" discussion, Issue 426.
DG: He thinks isa can handle this. If isa is not used, then we would have to re-open this issue.
n-ary Intent discussion (Issue #253)
What happens when you have a long expression?
DG: We can fully mark it up with intent. This would be big. It is better to just read it in the order it is printed. Do not use intent on it.
Closed as completed.
Need a scheme/philosophy/plan for unifying/breaking apart "level 0" names (Issue #254)
We discussed the example of an interval. How do you specify the interval as an open or closed interval? How do you specify if each side is open or closed?
We do not have a general philosophy, but more names are better as long as speech makes good use of them.
Close.
Are intents needed in intent-core for "self-describing" things? (Issue #255)
We considered trig functions like sin and cos which are self-describing.
WG agreed that self-describing functions do not need to be in core. But it would be useful to have a table to remind AT that they need to deal with sin, csc, etc.
Closed.
Make the sample presentation of Strict Content use intent (issue 284)
Should the sample presentations use intent?
DG: You can use things that are not in core because we are open ended.
BM: We should be using good MathML markup if needed.
DC: Add judicious intents where needed.
DG: Take no action. It is out of scope. Close the issue.
NS: This is about putting intent on presentation and not on content.
We did not close issue 285. NS replaced the intent label with a label that said, "it needs specification".
We will continue considering the issues next week.
NS: is looking forward to the "isa", "table" and "internationalization" discussions.

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Dennis Müller
   - Murray Sargent
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Bruce Miller
   - Sam Dooley
   - David Farmer

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Bert Bos
   - Deyan Ginev

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: The current version of Microsoft Edge now supports MathML. The Opera
browser will soon support MathML.

Missing from minutes? Did we resolve Intent for "mtable" constructs #337
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/337>

LM: Did not find any reference to deciding on issue 337 in the minutes.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.2-0#cp-md-0-2-charter-discussion-what-needs-to-be-changed->2.
Charter discussion: what needs to be changed?

NS: We need a new charter.

NS: reviewed the charter using his shared screen.

PL: We have not made any progress with internationalization for MathML. We
have not been able to coordinate with other groups on internationalization.
Internationalization could be a motivator for the new charter.

NS: Internationalization is in scope.

NS: reviewed the bullet points stating the charter goals.

DC: We can say that we have made satisfactory progress on core. The goal of
the next charter could be core level two.

DC: We may not have a working draft by May.

NS: considered developing a test suite of about twenty examples showing how
intent can be used to generate speech.

NS: has some personal tests, but they are not in the form that could be
referred to in the specification.

NS: Do we have an example that shows how AriaLabel interacts with intent?
No.

DC: We should not commit to MathML 5. The goal of the new charter should be
to complete work on MathML 4.

DC: We should leave the current charter scope unchanged. We should say that
we will finish the work described in the current charter.

PL: Should we add a study for a multi-language survey? This might be a
scope item for our next charter.

DC: We want time to finish our MathML 4 work. MathML 5 would take another
three years at least.

*ACTION* NS will have a discussion with BK to get the core group to
consider the next charter.

NS: We have many items that say need spec. We have plenty of work without
changing the scope.

NS: We should drop search because no one is working on it.

NS: Intent may help content markup which might help searchability, but
intent is for AT speech generation.

PL: We could see if public search engines would work on intent.

PL: A sight specific search might work on intent. NIST might have such a
search engine.

BM: NIST search engines do do some indexing.

NS: Should we leave search in the specification goals?

DM: talked about a search engine.

NS: Can we say that we might get a search capability?

BM's and DG's group are working on search.

NS: In an expression, if there is no intent, NS will make guesses as to the
meaning of the expression. He considers this better than just reading what
is in the text.

BM: This search capability would not happen in our charter's lifetime.

DC's group is focusing on pdf tagging. In their next release, math
expressions can be tagged with the text in the TeX source.

NS: If the TeX had a macro in it, DC's method would grab the TeX text and
put it into the pdf document as a tag.

DC: There is a problem in detecting where an expression ends.

NS: This does not affect our scope.

NS: It is a matter of getting the authors to use the appropriate macros.

NS: Can your macros create intent?

DF: Each math topic area does not require many macros because you have
subject area assumptions to guide the intent translation.

DM: People working in a limited mathematical area will have a limited
number of macros which they use. Because math has many subject areas, you
will have to work with many macros.

DF: If you work in an area where you know all the macros, then you will use
them. If you are working in an area which has hundreds of macros, you may
not use them because of the difficulty of remembering, or finding, the
correct macro.

DM: A search engine might solve this problem.

NS: Do we have anything new to add to the scope?

SW: Do we have mechanisms, to align equations with one another, when the
equations are embedded in text?

NS: We do have an IndentAlign attribute, which uses an ID, to help align
equations with one another.

NS: He does not know how well the IndentAlign attribute works.

NS: In core level two, line breaking will be discussed. hopefully, it will
agree with MathML 3. MathJax might have implemented this alignment.

SW: We should add alignment as part of the scope.

SW: What is the best way to add equation numbers?

NS: mlabeltr was taken out of core.

MUS: There is a way to add an equation number by using an array. This is
the single expression mode. It is not used in the paragraph mode.

MUS: In his technique, Linebreaking is not implemented. It works for simple
cases. The math layout engine has two levels: single equation mode and
paragraph mode. This technique was cut in 2007.

NS: CSS has counters. Aligning equation numbers with their corresponding
equations is difficult. Can CSS capture this alignment?

DC: Use an HTML table.

SW: Is this something that should be addressed? To make a table to add
equation numbers tends to defeat accessibility. You also want to reference
figures and tables with numbers. People might like to click on an equation
number and jump to the equation.

NS: Is there a pure CSS method to make equation numbers without using a
table?

DC: It is difficult to have equation numbers in multi-line expressions.

DC: If you have a multi-line equation, you want to find the baseline and
float the number to the edge of the page. CSS has problems with this.

NS: Can you use an ID to position the equation number?

DC: You can do simple cases.

*ACTION* Add equation numbers to the MathML core discussion, unless CSS
already does this.

NS: Malign is used for vertical alignment, and not horizontal alignment.

BM: This is not math at all. It is something at the document level and not
at the math level. This needs rethinking to see how math zones interact
with the document.

NS: next considered out-of-scope items.

NS: Leave content alone except for changes that might affect presentation
MathML.

SD: Do not make changes that would break previous versions of content
MathML.

DC: The scope is to finish MathML 4. Do not change anything.

NS: We should have a deliverable to have a first draft of core level 2.

NS: We can do a cr next month. We just need to work a little on intent.

*ACTION* DC: said that we should readopt the entity spec.

NS: People should read over the charter and be ready to talk about it next
week.

NS: will start writing the new charter.

On 2023-01-19 11:50, Louis Maher wrote:
> Hello Bert,
> 
> In the minutes of January 12, 2023, towards the bottom of the announcements section is:
> "Consensus Publish the "XML Entity Definitions for Characters" as a third edition.".

Thanks! Then I'll go ahead and send a publication request.



Bert
-- 
   Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/

   http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
   bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
   +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France

Hello Bert,

In the minutes of January 12, 2023, towards the bottom of the announcements section is:
"Consensus Publish the "XML Entity Definitions for Characters" as a third edition.".



Regards
Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
Email: ljmaher03@outlook.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Bert Bos <bert@w3.org> 
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2023 2:37 AM
To: www-math@w3.org
Subject: Re: Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

Regrets for today's meeting.


About updating the Rec for XML entity definitions[1]:

As the update requires no changes to implementations, it is indeed easy. 
We need:

1) A group decision to publish. Do we have one in the minutes already?

2) A document in the right format. I believe we have that. And if the checker finds errors, I'm sure I'll be able to fix them

3) A publication request from me to the W3C webmaster.

[1] https://w3c.github.io/xml-entities/




Bert
-- 
   Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/

   http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
   bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
   +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France

Regrets for today's meeting.


About updating the Rec for XML entity definitions[1]:

As the update requires no changes to implementations, it is indeed easy. 
We need:

1) A group decision to publish. Do we have one in the minutes already?

2) A document in the right format. I believe we have that. And if the 
checker finds errors, I'm sure I'll be able to fix them

3) A publication request from me to the W3C webmaster.

[1] https://w3c.github.io/xml-entities/




Bert
-- 
   Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/

   http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
   bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
   +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France

I’ll only attend the first 30 minutes.
Sorry for that.

Paul

On 19 Jan 2023, at 4:25, Neil Soiffer wrote:

> We meet at our standard time on Thursday: 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 
> 7pm
> Central European Time.
>
> The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" 
> mailing
> list 
> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> 
> for
> the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details 
> in
> their calendars.
>
> Agenda
> 1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
>     Missing from minutes? did we resolve Intent for "mtable" 
> constructs
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/337> #337
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/337>
> 2. Charter discussion: what needs to be changed?
> 3. More intent discussions
>    a) 409 internationalization 
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/409>
>    b) 426 isa <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/426>
> 4. Deprecating mstyle in core
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181> ? in full? New 
> thoughts?

 We meet at our standard time on Thursday: 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> for
the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in
their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
    Missing from minutes? did we resolve Intent for "mtable" constructs
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/337> #337
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/337>
2. Charter discussion: what needs to be changed?
3. More intent discussions
   a) 409 internationalization <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/409>
   b) 426 isa <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/426>
4. Deprecating mstyle in core
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181>? in full? New thoughts?

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Bruce Miller
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Steve Noble
   - Murray Sargent
   - Bert Bos
   - Sam Dooley

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-2#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - David Farmer

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-2#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-2#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: The big news this week is that MathML in Chrome is out (After the
meeting, Edge's update came out; Opera's update to 109 recently went to
beta, so they will be a while)

NS: TPAC for 2023 was announced:

TPAC 2023 Hybrid Meeting 11-15 September 2023

Main in-person hub: Meliá Sevilla Hotel Calle Dr. Pedro de Castro, 1 41004
Sevilla Spain

NS: to BB: when do we need to ask for a charter extension?

BB: said that you could ask for an extension a few weeks before the current
charter expired. He said that the usual extension period was for three
months.

NS: wanted a year extension. He did not want a new charter.

BB: If you want/need a new charter, it is best to start now.

DC: We might get out a CR out this month. Our extension would say until we
got to PR.

NS: suggested asking for a three-month charter extension, then asking for a
new charter.

NS: We will not get out a PR out before the end of the summer.

NS: Once you release a CR, the implementation may take a long time.

DG: Is there an option to make the core spec a living document that can be
continuously updated?

NS: Working drafts are often what the implementers work with.

BB: That is a possibility with a new charter. It is not in our current
charter.

BB: This is called an evergreen spec.

DG: Evergreen Standards - W3C Wiki:
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Evergreen_Standards

DC: Do we need a charter forever?

BB: No, charters end.

DC: The schema and polyfills have been moved to the w3c repo.

We discussed the XML Entity Definitions for Characters (3rd Edition)
document: (https://w3c.github.io/xml-entities/)

DC: Only the entity names are normative. The changes are to keep up with
Unicode entities, and that part is not normative.

NS: Can we publish it as an updated recommendation?

NS: What do we need to do to make a third edition of this document? The
changes we made are only editorial.

DC: The Unicode version changed from version 11 to 15.

BB: We only need this group to agree on the publication.

*Consensus* Publish the "XML Entity Definitions for Characters" as a third
edition.

NS: Is some review needed?

DC: We have a change record.

*ACTION* BB will find out what is necessary to make the document a proposed
recommendation.

We had a discussion on fonts.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-2#cp-md-0-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-181-deprecating-mstyle-in-core-a-in-full-new-thoughts->2.
Deprecating mstyle in core? <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/181>
in full? New thoughts?

This was held over until next week.

We will also talk about the charter next week.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.2.1-2#cp-md-0-3-going-through-the-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-q-is-3aissue-is-3aopen-intent-label-3aintent-open-intent-issues-a->3.
Going through the open intent issues
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+intent+label%3Aintent>

in the hopes of closing or coalescing some.

Chemistry and semantics/AT (issue #93)

NS: Chemical expressions can look like math but are pronounced differently.
This issue will be merged with the "isa" discussion, Issue 426.

DG: He thinks isa can handle this. If isa is not used, then we would have
to re-open this issue.

n-ary Intent discussion (Issue #253)

What happens when you have a long expression?

DG: We can fully mark it up with intent. This would be big. It is better to
just read it in the order it is printed. Do not use intent on it.

Closed as completed.

Need a scheme/philosophy/plan for unifying/breaking apart "level 0" names
(Issue #254)

We discussed the example of an interval. How do you specify the interval as
an open or closed interval? How do you specify if each side is open or
closed?

We do not have a general philosophy, but more names are better as long as
speech makes good use of them.

Close.

Are intents needed in intent-core for "self-describing" things? (Issue #255)

We considered trig functions like sin and cos which are self-describing.

WG agreed that self-describing functions do not need to be in core. But it
would be useful to have a table to remind AT that they need to deal with
sin, csc, etc.

Closed.

Make the sample presentation of Strict Content use intent (issue 284)

Should the sample presentations use intent?

DG: You can use things that are not in core because we are open ended.

BM: We should be using good MathML markup if needed.

DC: Add judicious intents where needed.

DG: Take no action. It is out of scope. Close the issue.

NS: This is about putting intent on presentation and not on content.

We did not close issue 285. NS replaced the intent label with a label that
said, "it needs specification".

We will continue considering the issues next week.

NS: is looking forward to the "isa", "table" and "internationalization"
discussions.

On 11 Jan 2023, at 11:18, Brian Kardell wrote:

> The wikipedia presentation on MathML/browser compatibility/history for example
> really leaves something to be desired, it doesn't even mention Core, for
> example.  I'm sure there's just a lot out there we'll have to work on
> finding and correcting.
>
> I'm CC'ing my colleague Eric Meyer who was looking at the wikipedia page
> today and can probably also help with some of this here and there.

Hello all!  I'm happy to participate in any update work, whether as a copyeditor or even a sort of project coordinator.

I did update the Browser Support section of the Wikipedia MathML article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Browser_support) to mention the return of MathML to Chromium, but didn't try to correct anything else in that section since I wasn't confident of how things should be characterized in other browsers.  I also didn't try to add anything about MathML Core there or in the History section of the page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#History).  I'd be happy to take contributions from the group and add them to the page, or turn bullet points into prose for approval before adding to the page.  Whatever I can do to help set the record straight!


--
Eric A. Meyer - http://meyerweb.com/

The Chrome browser renders MathML, thanks to code by Igalia