Planet MathML

Issues
------
* w3c/html-aam (+1/-0/💬0)
  1 issues created:
  - Mapping of svg/math tags in non-SVG/non-MathML namespaces (by fred-wang)
    https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/344 

* w3c/html-aria (+2/-1/💬13)
  2 issues created:
  - Be more percise with allowed roles on the li element (by scottaohara)
    https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/351 [Allowed Roles] 
  - review allowed roles for legend elements (by scottaohara)
    https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/350 [Allowed Roles] 

  4 issues received 13 new comments:
  - #350 review allowed roles for legend elements (7 by JAWS-test, scottaohara)
    https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/350 [Allowed Roles] 
  - #348 CFC: Advance ARIA in HTML to Proposed Recommendation (PR) (1 by LJWatson)
    https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/348 
  - #347 Proposal: role="subheading" (4 by carnoxen, scottaohara)
    https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/347 
  - #345 Do MUST requirements apply to all stages of document life-cycle (1 by dd8)
    https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/345 

  1 issues closed:
  - CFC: Advance ARIA in HTML to Proposed Recommendation (PR) https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues/348 

* w3c/htmlwg (+0/-1/💬1)
  1 issues received 1 new comments:
  - #21 CFC: Advance DOM Standard to W3C Recommendation (1 by LJWatson)
    https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/21 

  1 issues closed:
  - CFC: Advance DOM Standard to W3C Recommendation https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg/issues/21 

* w3c/webcomponents (+1/-0/💬2)
  1 issues created:
  - Adding support for ShadowDOM features in SVG (by trusktr)
    https://github.com/WICG/webcomponents/issues/942 

  2 issues received 2 new comments:
  - #942 Adding support for ShadowDOM features in SVG (1 by Danny-Engelman)
    https://github.com/WICG/webcomponents/issues/942 
  - #933 Options for controlling specifics of "slotchange" events? (1 by trusktr)
    https://github.com/WICG/webcomponents/issues/933 

* whatwg/html (+14/-10/💬64)
  14 issues created:
  - "<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" dir="..." (by Hisirdoux-git)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7089 
  - Transferring objects in `BroadcastChannel.postMessage()` (by jespertheend)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7088 
  - <pre> tag dedentation for improved authoring (by Jamesernator)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7087 
  - Dissonant behaviour when exposing named elements to `window` when there are multiples elements with the same `id` (by macabeus)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7086 
  - Html (by WasiArain)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7085 
  - Web Amp (by Ali1970N)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7084 
  - Sign in verification code (by MYBMF)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7083 
  - canvas.toDataUrl / toBlob should let you specify lossless compression for webp (by Fuzzyma)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7078 
  - Prathapdhanapal301@gmail.com (by Prathapdhanapal)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7077 
  - Prathapdhanapal301@gmail.com (by Prathapdhanapal)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7076 
  - Security (by Minutara63)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7074 
  - What are web developers supposed to do with COOP violations "navigation-from-response" and "navigation-to-response"? (by Sora2455)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7072 
  - Unfocusing steps should account for `delegatesFocus` somehow (by emilio)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7070 
  - Allow speculative fetches in Declarative Shadow DOM `template` elements (by zcorpan)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7069 

  25 issues received 64 new comments:
  - #7088 Transferring objects in `BroadcastChannel.postMessage()` (2 by domenic, jespertheend)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7088 
  - #7086 Dissonant behaviour when exposing named elements to `window` when there are multiples elements with the same `id` (4 by Kaiido, domenic)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7086 
  - #7078 canvas.toDataUrl / toBlob should let you specify lossless compression for webp (1 by annevk)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7078 [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [topic: canvas] 
  - #7074 Security (1 by Minutara63)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7074 
  - #7072 What are web developers supposed to do with COOP violations "navigation-from-response" and "navigation-to-response"? (2 by annevk)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7072 [clarification] [topic: cross-origin-opener-policy] 
  - #7070 Unfocusing steps should account for `delegatesFocus` somehow (3 by domenic, emilio)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7070 [topic: shadow] [topic: focus] 
  - #7068 Reusing browsing context groups across navigations and traversals (4 by annevk, jakearchibald)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7068 [topic: navigation] [topic: history] [topic: cross-origin-opener-policy] [topic: cross-origin-embedder-policy] 
  - #7065 Clarify, normatively, that speculative fetches should never be duplicated (1 by annevk)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7065 [topic: parser] 
  - #7036 Where are steps about recalculate styles and update layer tree before painting? (question) (2 by Kaiido, dSalieri)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7036 [clarification] [interop] 
  - #6962 Use the real tokenizer and tree builder for meta prescan (7 by domenic, hsivonen, zcorpan)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/6962 [topic: parser] 
  - #6927 What browsers do for overlapping navigations/history traversals (1 by domenic)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/6927 [topic: navigation] [topic: history] 
  - #6546 Clarify drawImage(<svg preserveAspectRatio>) (1 by Kaiido)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/6546 [topic: canvas] [interop] 
  - #6480 Custom Elements: deferred upgrade until displayable (2 by atotic, dvoytenko)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/6480 [topic: custom elements] 
  - #6363 HTML Video Element: Proposal For Reintroduction of Media (and srcset/sizes) in Source Elements (1 by Th3S4mur41)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/6363 [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [topic: media] 
  - #5872 Standardize a popup's condition and UI opened by window.open (1 by domenic)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5872 [interop] [topic: browsing context] [agenda+] 
  - #5811 Consider creating an HTML search element (5 by Paul-Hebert, domenic, gregwhitworth, scottaohara)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5811 [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [accessibility] [a11y-tracker] 
  - #5650 inert: Hit-testing / selection behavior shouldn't be magical. (1 by nt1m)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5650 
  - #5624 Specify speculative HTML parsing (preload scanner) (3 by ke1vinn, yoavweiss)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5624 [topic: parser] [topic: fetch] 
  - #5350 Impact of browsing context group switch during navigation (5 by Jkilla123, hemeryar, jakearchibald)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5350 [topic: navigation] [topic: history] [topic: browsing context] 
  - #4782 User agents, session history, browsing contexts, and agent clusters (2 by annevk, jakearchibald)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4782 [topic: history] [topic: browsing context] [topic: agent] 
  - #3958 Interop: pdf might or might not render in a sandboxed iframe (depending on a browser) (5 by anforowicz, domenic, kelunik)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3958 [interop] [topic: embed and object] [topic: sandbox] 
  - #3181 Drawing crisp lines in canvas (4 by Kaiido, qianduancaiji)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3181 [topic: canvas] 
  - #3062 Websocket - support for custom headers for handshake  (1 by justinmchase)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3062 [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [topic: websocket] 
  - #2614 Feature: Value for the crossorigin attribute that makes anon requests same-origin (4 by annevk, jakearchibald, mikewest)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/2614 [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [topic: fetch] 
  - #2191 Disable custom protocols in sandboxed iframe (1 by johannhof)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/2191 [normative change] [addition/proposal] [security/privacy] [topic: custom protocols] 

  10 issues closed:
  - Add entity "&diameter;" for U+2300 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/6049 [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [topic: parser] 
  - Add &nnbsp; entity for U+202F https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5121 [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [topic: parser] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-alreq] [i18n-amlreq] [i18n-mlreq] 
  - Character entity larrpl isn't left-arrow-with-plus, to match rarrpl https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3655 [normative change] [needs implementer interest] [topic: parser] 
  - Dissonant behaviour when exposing named elements to `window` when there are multiples elements with the same `id` https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7086 
  - Transferring objects in `BroadcastChannel.postMessage()` https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7088 
  - Default 'display' value for form controls https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4082 [topic: rendering] [topic: forms] [interop] 
  - Module type check should take environment into account https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7047 [topic: script] 
  - Security https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7074 
  - Reusing browsing context groups across navigations and traversals https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7068 [topic: navigation] [topic: history] [topic: cross-origin-opener-policy] [topic: cross-origin-embedder-policy] 
  - Specify speculative HTML parsing (preload scanner) https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5624 [topic: parser] [topic: fetch] 

* whatwg/dom (+2/-0/💬2)
  2 issues created:
  - Robust events (by Jamesernator)
    https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/1016 
  - Mein (by Kosta1994r)
    https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/1015 

  2 issues received 2 new comments:
  - #1016 Robust events (1 by annevk)
    https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/1016 [needs implementer interest] [topic: events] [addition/proposal] [topic: aborting] 
  - #951 Add AbortSignal.timeout(ms) (1 by annevk)
    https://github.com/whatwg/dom/issues/951 [addition/proposal] [topic: aborting] 



Pull requests
-------------
* whatwg/html (+7/-6/💬21)
  7 pull requests submitted:
  - Editorial: Two trivial fixes to COOP text. (by jeremyroman)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7082 
  - `structuredClone()` should use `StructuredDeserializeWithTransfer` (by andreubotella)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7081 
  - Failed assertion when structured cloning a TypedArray view of a SAB (by andreubotella)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7080 
  - Make unfocusing steps work well with delegatesFocus (by domenic)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7079 [topic: shadow] [topic: focus] 
  - Update 404.html (by Gowri-06)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7075 
  - Rename supports() method of HTMLScriptElement to supportsType() (by horo-t)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7073 
  - Note that we will not add new named character references (by domenic)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7071 [topic: parser] 

  9 pull requests received 21 new comments:
  - #7079 Make unfocusing steps work well with delegatesFocus (1 by sefeng211)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7079 [topic: shadow] [topic: focus] 
  - #7073 Rename supports() method of HTMLScriptElement to supportsType() (2 by domenic, horo-t)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7073 
  - #7071 Note that we will not add new named character references (2 by annevk, domenic)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7071 [topic: parser] 
  - #7060 Editorial: Link to `continue` description (7 by domenic, heppokofrontend)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7060 
  - #6990 Improve autofocus and delegatesFocus interaction (2 by domenic, sefeng211)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/6990 [addition/proposal] [topic: focus] 
  - #6818 Add 'keyup' and 'keypress' to 'activation triggering input event' (3 by marcoscaceres, mustaqahmed)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/6818 [normative change] [needs tests] [topic: user activation] 
  - #6763 CanvasFilter objects as input to CanvasRenderingContext2D.filter attribute (1 by Minutara63)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/6763 [addition/proposal] [topic: canvas] 
  - #6638 Add `credentialless` value to COEP (HTML spec) (1 by ArthurSonzogni)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/6638 
  - #4840 Make all input elements display: inline-block by default (2 by zcorpan)
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/4840 [topic: rendering] [topic: forms] 

  6 pull requests merged:
  - Note that we will not add new named character references
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7071 [topic: parser] 
  - `structuredClone()` should use `StructuredDeserializeWithTransfer`
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7081 
  - Failed assertion when structured cloning a TypedArray view of a SAB
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7080 
  - Make all input elements display: inline-block by default
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/4840 [topic: rendering] [topic: forms] 
  - Check for use of CSS modules in workers before fetching
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/7066 
  - Define speculative HTML parsing
    https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/5959 [topic: parser] 


Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/w3c/html-aam
* https://github.com/w3c/html-aria
* https://github.com/w3c/html-extensions
* https://github.com/w3c/htmlwg
* https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents
* https://github.com/whatwg/html
* https://github.com/whatwg/dom


-- 
Sent via github-notify-ml as configured in https://github.com/w3c/github-notify-ml-config

 We meet at our standard time on Thursday, 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html>
for the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details
in their calendars.

Agenda:
1. Announcements/updates

2. Gap Analysis Doc
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Pzsf2dqTkbYXFmoKCLzvtrNERNmtF2MHX1WtugB3PfA/edit#heading=h.c347lddsvbro>
I've done some work on the gap analysis document. In this meeting, I want
to focus on:
a) a new topic suggested by Brian -- what the browser accessibility tree
looks like now for math and what it should look like. [see section I wrote
as a first draft]
b) ARIA section
c) There are still open comments and we need to add the two other examples
(probably collapse them in an HTML doc)

 Attendees:

   - David Carlisle
   - Sam Dooley
   - Brian Kardell
   - David Farmer
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Patrick Ion
   - Mohannad Khasawneh
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Louis Maher
   - Bruce Miller
   - Daniel O'Mahony
   - Murray Sargent
   - Neil Soiffer
   - Daniel O'Mahony
   - Steve Noble
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Cary Supalo
   - Laurence Zaysser

Regrets:

   - Charles LaPierre

Announcements/updates

We introduced ourselves to the new members Mohannad Khasawneh and Daniel
O'Mahony.

NS: will schedule a TPAC meeting and hope that ARIA shows up.
Gap Analysis Doc

The document is at (
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Pzsf2dqTkbYXFmoKCLzvtrNERNmtF2MHX1WtugB3PfA/edit#heading=h.k21427jotzf1
).

SD: Discussed how to attach symbols that are not part of the MathML
standard to the intent mathML syntax.

NS: We should not spend too much time on discussing how to bring in new
symbols. Non-content MathML experts won't care about that level of detail.

DG: "Point" is not in the MathML standard. If we use it, we will have to
explain it. He wants to not use point as an example.

BM: We can define point with a footnote saying that we will need a CD
(content dictionary) to discuss it.

SD: Used point to show how parallel markup can disambiguate something.

SD: wants to illustrate the use of parallel MathML to clarify math
expressions. He wants to use csymbol to explain what a "point" is so that
"point" can be used in his examples.

NS: We also use "line segments" and "subscripted variables" as examples of
how things can be disambiguated.

From Moritz Schubotz to Everyone: suggest point

DG: You must discuss CDs if you discuss content MathML.

DG: We should expand our content MathML discussion.

NS: Maybe put in two sentences describing alternative ways to work with
content MathML.

BM: There are alternative ways to specify symbols.

DG: is OK with using "point" with "csymbol" in our examples.

MOS: wants more ARIA discussion. We should describe csymbol there.

NS: Discussed problems with "ARIA label" not being a good accessibility
solution. The ARIA discussion may need improvement.

*ACTION* Neil will work on the ARIA discussion. DG: may also work on this.

BM: There is an example from MathCounts. There is good data in that
example. He wants the discussion shortened.

NS: suggests using highlighting to emphasize the MathCounts example's vital
parts.

LZ: MathML should be natively accessible. She is concerned about the
increased complexity that the intent property would introduce. She does not
think that authors would use it because of its complexity.

LZ: MathML should offer minimal accessibility without enhancements.

DG: In the MathCounts example, most of the example is natively accessible.
Only a few "pain points" will need enhancement.

*ACTION* NS: will finish editing most of the document. The ARIA section
will especially need attention.

*ACTION* DG, SD, and MOS will work on the parallel section.

Attendees:

   - Christopher Comninel
   - Sam Dooley
   - Brian Kardell
   - David Farmer
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Patrick Ion
   - Charles LaPierre
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Louis Maher
   - Murray Sargent
   - Neil Soiffer
   - Stephen Watt
   - Daniel O'Mahony
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Cary Supalo

Regrets:

   -

   Laurence Zaysser
   -

   David Carlisle

Announcements/updates

NS: We had a short core meeting on Monday August 30, 2021. In that meeting,
BK discussed the "Open Collective" as a means of requesting funds to
support MathML implementation. He worked with MUS and NS to raise money.
Agalia currently funds most of the work.

NS: encourages people who work for companies to ask for funding.

NS: Link https://opencollective.com/mathml-core-support

NS: is trying to get a response for a meeting with ARIA during the TPAC
conference.
Gap Analysis Doc

NS and DG took a geometry problem from [MathCounts] as a demonstration.
They wrote up the problem as it would be read verbally both without and
with semantics.

That problem was used as an example for further topics in the document.

NS: wants to work on Parallel Markup.

SD: MUS and MOS have worked on it.

SD: talked about the scope of the "parallel" topic discussion.

MOS: what are the elements of the content markup.

NS: wants the document authors to agree on the syntax of the example being
used to demonstrate the various topics in the document.

The document used a demonstration element, called point, in the intent
description. Point is not a standard MathML element.

DG: said that the document pointed out that there were many ways to deal
with CD's (Content Dictionaries).

SD: We have different places to look for names of operators.

PL: If we use "point" we will have to describe what kind of object "point"
is. We should not put "point" in the charter.

NS: We should not talk about the lack of proper names in MathML in this
document. The ways that can be resolved is not germane for the gap analysis.

*Action:* SD, MOS, and DG will clean up the parallel section by removing
all the comments.

NS: There are discussions which have been moved to the bottom. These
discussions need work.

NS: does not want the gap document to be more than 15 pages long.

*Action:* PL: wants to expand the paragraph on "Conversion, Computation and
Transfer".

*Action:* NS andDG will work on the ARIA label discussion.

MOS and DG talked about the "Structured data via schema.org" section.

NS: would like to move this section lower in the document.

MOS: can this be used for search and accessibility? This would be future
technology.

*Action* CL: working on Schema.org. Might describe old MathML versus
current MathML.

NS: asked if anyone else wants to take responsibility for any other parts
of the document.

NS: hopes to start real editing by next meeting. Move it to a place where
math can be shown.

The gap document editors have not yet volunteered. NS will be one of them.

PL: The brainstorming part of writing this document is almost done.

 Announcements:

*Action* Neil will look into using the W3C calendar for meetings.
Open Collective

https://opencollective.com/mathml-core-support

BK: Neil and Murray provided seed money. The goal is to create other
sources of funding besides just three companies.

BK: will do a post with more details
Upstreaming

NS: Math support has been increased in Chrome and Edge. Matrix support has
been added as well as stretchy characters. Font may not be set properly. To
see these changes in nightly: chrome://flags or edge://flags and turn on
the experimental web platform features.
Set a math font to make this look better.

Sample page:
https://www-archive.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/demo/texvsmml.xhtml
TPAC

NS: has been trying to get the ARIA group to have a TPAC meeting with us.
They have not responded.

   - We have 4 issues with the TPAC label,
   - they are all CSS related, 3 are for L2.
   - What are we hoping to do here and what do we need to prepare?
   -
   https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3ATPAC

Did not get to these.

 We meet at our standard time on Thursday, 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html>
for the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details
in their calendars.

Agenda:
1. Announcements/updates

2. Gap Analysis Doc
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Pzsf2dqTkbYXFmoKCLzvtrNERNmtF2MHX1WtugB3PfA/edit#heading=h.c347lddsvbro>
The focus this week will be on the mixed markup section and what we will
say. If needed, there may be some live editing of that section. I hope to
do some significant editing of sections tonight (Pacific time) so please
read over the document in the morning with a focus on the mixed markup.

It was pointed out to me that the link I sent didn't work, sorry about
that... The correct link is
https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/2/code/edit/4ZrscOeHMxtuAerfmNAN8gME/

On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 2:38 PM Brian Kardell <bkardell@gmail.com> wrote:

> Reminder that our next meeting is Monday.  Please add your name to regrets
> if you can't make it, and feel free to add to the announcements and agenda
> start I have made in the cryptpad...
>
> https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/3/code/edit/16483a48eec88f7df3b16dd8002a874e/
>
> --
> Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com
>


-- 
Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com

Reminder that our next meeting is Monday.  Please add your name to regrets
if you can't make it, and feel free to add to the announcements and agenda
start I have made in the cryptpad...

https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/3/code/edit/16483a48eec88f7df3b16dd8002a874e/

-- 
Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com

Thanks for the update.

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Louis Maher<mailto:ljmaher03@outlook.com>
Sent: Tuesday 24 August 2021 22:22
To: Noble, Stephen<mailto:steve.noble@pearson.com>; Daniel O'Mahony<mailto:domahony@tpgi.com>; www-math@w3.org<mailto:www-math@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Thanks

CAUTION: This email originated outside Vispero. Do not click links, open attachments or forward unless you recognize the sender.

Hello Dan,

Our next meeting will be on September 2, 2021.


Regards
Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
E-mail: ljmaher03@outlook.com

From: Noble, Stephen <steve.noble@pearson.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 2:51 PM
To: Daniel O'Mahony <domahony@tpgi.com>; www-math@w3.org
Subject: Re: Thanks

Hi Dan,

Although I was unable to attend our last meeting, it looks like from the minutes (and an email from Neil) that we aren't meeting this Thursday. If I am incorrect, perhaps someone else can correct me.

--Steve




Steve Noble
Instructional Designer, Accessibility
Psychometrics & Testing Services

Pearson
502 969 3088
steve.noble@pearson.com<mailto:steve.noble@pearson.com>
[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/xFjftXlwMzpdFeTtDgc4_IwyMYm8ThtQHIsgElkS8fyiCO2M7ZM0WaO7r2uy-bmKAe5S2sIcg7d-mwbD4ArkJhyafHke-SgJ2ui8DoGoBhZw4YIyWeK3LUozNMwBff4JR2tdu8nZ2fvoNvkkA06KNw9-s3P9UvYsHSTphHss6X0=s0-d-e1-ft#http://accessibility4school.pear]


From: Daniel O'Mahony <domahony@tpgi.com<mailto:domahony@tpgi.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 3:34 PM
To: www-math@w3.org<mailto:www-math@w3.org> <www-math@w3.org<mailto:www-math@w3.org>>
Subject: Thanks


Hi there,

Daniel here in TPGi. Firstly I want to thank you for adding me as a participant to the Math Working Group. I was intending to join the call on Thursday evening, mostly to introduce myself and to see how and where I can contribute. I hope this is okay.



Regards,

Dan



Sent from Mail<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986__%3B!!LtJ5xwj-!cvQZJIYr6j6R3GZrR1rW6nJ8PunOw7xwMmRufiMGZ_RMSU21wLPt815U7OI_4Bz2pQ%24&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ceb04fd93b94642a210d408d96738ab9c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637654315356085744%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=FfFnoTSDE4T12Uf30%2FRpol9G3qE7MRE2g2WbuR6po%2Bo%3D&reserved=0> for Windows

We will meet next week on September 2.

Hello Dan,

Our next meeting will be on September 2, 2021.


Regards
Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
E-mail: ljmaher03@outlook.com

From: Noble, Stephen <steve.noble@pearson.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 2:51 PM
To: Daniel O'Mahony <domahony@tpgi.com>; www-math@w3.org
Subject: Re: Thanks

Hi Dan,

Although I was unable to attend our last meeting, it looks like from the minutes (and an email from Neil) that we aren't meeting this Thursday. If I am incorrect, perhaps someone else can correct me.

--Steve





Steve Noble
Instructional Designer, Accessibility
Psychometrics & Testing Services

Pearson
502 969 3088
steve.noble@pearson.com<mailto:steve.noble@pearson.com>
[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/xFjftXlwMzpdFeTtDgc4_IwyMYm8ThtQHIsgElkS8fyiCO2M7ZM0WaO7r2uy-bmKAe5S2sIcg7d-mwbD4ArkJhyafHke-SgJ2ui8DoGoBhZw4YIyWeK3LUozNMwBff4JR2tdu8nZ2fvoNvkkA06KNw9-s3P9UvYsHSTphHss6X0=s0-d-e1-ft#http://accessibility4school.pear]

________________________________
From: Daniel O'Mahony <domahony@tpgi.com<mailto:domahony@tpgi.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 3:34 PM
To: www-math@w3.org<mailto:www-math@w3.org> <www-math@w3.org<mailto:www-math@w3.org>>
Subject: Thanks


Hi there,

Daniel here in TPGi. Firstly I want to thank you for adding me as a participant to the Math Working Group. I was intending to join the call on Thursday evening, mostly to introduce myself and to see how and where I can contribute. I hope this is okay.



Regards,

Dan



Sent from Mail<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986__%3B!!LtJ5xwj-!cvQZJIYr6j6R3GZrR1rW6nJ8PunOw7xwMmRufiMGZ_RMSU21wLPt815U7OI_4Bz2pQ%24&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ceb04fd93b94642a210d408d96738ab9c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637654315356085744%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=FfFnoTSDE4T12Uf30%2FRpol9G3qE7MRE2g2WbuR6po%2Bo%3D&reserved=0> for Windows

Hi Dan,

Although I was unable to attend our last meeting, it looks like from the minutes (and an email from Neil) that we aren't meeting this Thursday. If I am incorrect, perhaps someone else can correct me.

--Steve




Steve Noble
Instructional Designer, Accessibility
Psychometrics & Testing Services

Pearson

502 969 3088
steve.noble@pearson.com<mailto:steve.noble@pearson.com>

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/xFjftXlwMzpdFeTtDgc4_IwyMYm8ThtQHIsgElkS8fyiCO2M7ZM0WaO7r2uy-bmKAe5S2sIcg7d-mwbD4ArkJhyafHke-SgJ2ui8DoGoBhZw4YIyWeK3LUozNMwBff4JR2tdu8nZ2fvoNvkkA06KNw9-s3P9UvYsHSTphHss6X0=s0-d-e1-ft#http://accessibility4school.pearson.com/access/4c49fe02-e204-46b4-b6f0-82f5a3f159cb/pearson-accessibility.jpg]


________________________________
From: Daniel O'Mahony <domahony@tpgi.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 3:34 PM
To: www-math@w3.org <www-math@w3.org>
Subject: Thanks


Hi there,

Daniel here in TPGi. Firstly I want to thank you for adding me as a participant to the Math Working Group. I was intending to join the call on Thursday evening, mostly to introduce myself and to see how and where I can contribute. I hope this is okay.



Regards,

Dan



Sent from Mail<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986__;!!LtJ5xwj-!cvQZJIYr6j6R3GZrR1rW6nJ8PunOw7xwMmRufiMGZ_RMSU21wLPt815U7OI_4Bz2pQ$> for Windows

Hi there,
Daniel here in TPGi. Firstly I want to thank you for adding me as a participant to the Math Working Group. I was intending to join the call on Thursday evening, mostly to introduce myself and to see how and where I can contribute. I hope this is okay.

Regards,
Dan

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

 Attendees:

   - Bert Bos
   - Sam Dooley
   - Brian Kardell
   - David Farmer
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Louis Maher
   - Bruce Miller
   - Murray Sargent
   - Neil Soiffer
   - David Carlisle
   - Stephen Watt

Regrets:

   - Laurence Zaysser
   - Patrick Ion

Announcements/updatesBB: sent out the following note.

The TPAC meeting organizers are asking all WGs if and when they want to
hold meetings during TPAC (25-29 October), and to fill in this wiki page:

TPAC Meeting Scheduling Form
<https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings>
The deadline is September 10.

NS: I have reached out to the ARIA group twice about a joint meeting but
still haven't heard back.

NS: Do we want to have a half-day working meeting to go over the MathML
spec 3 and start converting it to MathML spec 4 document?

BB: TPAC is an opportunity to get observers who might want to listen to us.

NS: we could have a couple of hour-long meetings to discuss issues. A one-
hour meeting might be more attractive than a half-day session.

DC: Will not have multi days off from work to attend TPAC meetings this
year. An hour here and there would be more practical.

BK: was in favor of a couple of hour-long meetings.

BK: would like to talk about what is in math level one core and what is not
in level one.

BK: we have many issues like what do we do about shadow dom.

NS: a different group of people would be interested in intent than would be
interested in core level one issues.

BK: the challenge with intent is that it is big and complex. There is a
group of people who will have no interest in this discussion.

PL: Core and Intent are WG MathML internal topics. People may not come to
meetings with the words "intent" and "Core level one" in the meeting titles.

Some people might think that MathJax may make MathML unnecessary.

DC: Call the core discussion something like "How To Get MathML In To
Browsers".

BM: Use intent as a code word for semantics.

BM: We would like to brainstorm with the greater W3C community to see if we
are leaving something out or are we taking wrong approaches.

BK: have a session on gap analysis for Math accessibility.

SW: What does the w3 think about unsighted issues versus accessibility
issues? One unsighted issue could be speech capability on the web. Is the
MathML WG addressing unsighted issues like proper speech pronunciation?

BK: there will be four meetings about speech on the web. BK is giving one
of those talks. These groups may not be coordinating with one another in
their work.

NS: There was a CSS speech module which was never fully implemented.

BK: asked two questions: Is what we are doing more complex than the issues
that the other W3C groups are working on, and how does what we are doing
coordinate with what the rest of the w3C is doing?

PL: is there a list of meetings we should be watching?

NS: there will be a list of public meetings once everyone has scheduled
their meetings. For the most part, these meetings will be open to anyone
who wants to attend.

BK: we should coordinate on which MathML WG members go to what meetings.
Some other topics of interest to us are ARIA, CSS and AOM (accessible
object model).

BK: Maybe we should have an accessibility object model. We should attend
this meeting.
Drop search from WG goals (and in particular, from the gap analysis)?

NS: Showed two ways to do math searches. The first is by searching for text
like "Bessel functions". A second method is to search for equations. The
text searches work, the equation searchs sometimes work but were less
successful than text searches. There are specialized math search engines.

MUS: suggested turning equations into indices and doing searches on these
indices.

NS: Should we be doing something to make search easier?

MUS: use MathML and turn it into indices for searches.

BM: two aproaches to math search: Base your search on the information in
content MathML or base your search on indices.

LaTeX can be tokenized. You can walk the MathML tree and index it.

The search engines do not craw the web and turn equations into indices.

NS: Largely we do not need to do anything for search other than what we are
doing for accessibility.

BK: Seems like we are talking about 3 things here. 1) evaluate the status
of searching - can it be done today - the answer is yes, we have data. 2)
Would intent metadata or something *potentially* help it? Seems easy to say
"Yes, probably" but that isn't the driving factor here and we don't
actually have 'proof' yet for reasons discussed. I think that's not our
primary goal. 3) It is interesting to think about "how special math is, and
why?" There are many kinds of things you can't search for, for example lots
of programming constructs and topics that affect all sorts of people and
have a number of similarities. Seems harder to argue that Math (which is
underinvested in historically) just *needs* special complexity here without
data or proof.

SW: We want to Normalize math so that it can be searched for. If there are
several ways to mark up a thing, we should normalize the process so that
there is only one way to mark it. This would allow us to turn math into
indices for search purposes.

NS: should we try to normalize MathML? Do we want to have normalized MathML?

DG: Meta data helps get higher quality searches. We should not be talking
about this without the venders in the room. (SCO means search engine
optimization.)

DG: Search engines ignore text that is not visible on web pages. Such
things like attributes are ignored for search because people used to hack
the attributes to make certain web pages more popular, or to insert items
not related to the web page.

PL: The equivalence of two things is defined by the situation of use in
many different cases. is "j" current or an index. No way to support search
engines accept through normalization.

DG: it is more harmful than useful to create standards that are not used.
Make sure they will be used before placing the standards in specifications.

*ACTION ITEM:* DG: will send PL: information on search.

SW: We have not decided to work on the normalization issue. There are many
characters that look similar to one another but have different uses, and
people ignore the differences.

MUS: has contact with the Bing search engine people. He could encourage
them to work with us.
This might encourage google to also work with us.

BM: We should not get too far in specifying what a pure math search engine
should do.

BM: Normalization has been suggested for many different topics like
searches, accessibility, CSS and other issues.

NS: Do we need to discuss search in the gap document?

DG: what is out there works pretty well. Perhaps we could add meta data
that might be useful if other people pick it up.

BM: WE should mention search in the introduction as a reason for improving
accessibility.

NS: Should we drop search? Our consensus is yes. WE will just mention that
accessibility could improve search.
Gap Analysis Doc

The Gap Analysis document is at Gap Document
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Pzsf2dqTkbYXFmoKCLzvtrNERNmtF2MHX1WtugB3PfA/edit#>

NS: The parallel section is generating controversy. What should we do about
this?

SD: have one section on parallel markup and another section on intent
attribute, and one section on vocabulary.

NS: MOS: might not want to refer to open math content dictionaries. He has
had better luck with wiki sources.

NS: would like to see a larger example than our (a,b) case. He would like
to show nesting.

DG: and others, decided to have the same three examples in each section of
the Gap document. This would clarify how each point is implemented.

DG: has three examples in the ARIA portion of the gap document. He agreed
to make some of these examples more complicated so that they could be used
in each portion of the gap document.

*ACTION ITEM:* DG and NS will work together to make the three ARIA examples
more complicated.

*ACTION ITEM:* NS: what is our work item for next meeting? Have every
section have a reference to DG's three ARIA examples. If necessary
reference outside documents to demonstrate these three cases.

DG: we need an editor to resolve edits.

NS: does not feel comfortable with resolving issues involving parallel
disagreements.

*ACTION ITEM:* The parallel authors will resolve the edit issues among
themselves.

Our next meeting will be on September 2, 2021.

Hi Paul, all,

This is a follow-up from our group discussion, trying to stay in the
search-related email thread.

Google has some supported uses of schema.org that touch upon mathematics,
in very specific, indeed webapp-specific, ways. Some examples related to
formulas:

1. "quadratic equation", has the google rich page:
https://g.co/kgs/Ahtp25

with a bunch of "rich results" tabs on the left, and some rich previews on
the right sidebar - assuming you have a wide screen.

I already knew practice problems were carried into the results through
schema.org, so I clicked on that tab on the left, and here is a screenshot
of what I saw:
[image: byju.png]


I have no prior knowledge of "byju" and can't state any opinion on it, but
it was the default multiple-choice vendor that showed up.

So I went to the HTML offered by "more practice on byju", opened the
inspector and extracted the following LD+JSON encoding of schema.org
structured data.
I republished it as a gist for convenience, since using the inspector is
visually painful.

There are several separate rich data snippets, each for a different purpose
- top-level, video, and the quiz. The link to the  The link to the quiz
LD+JSON is:
https://gist.github.com/dginev/33b5d0b7262fc70d9619e4af8791e3fc#file-quiz-json

it's anchored to that term via the very opaque metadata:
"name": "Quiz about Quadratic equations",
   "about": {
      "@type": "Thing",
      "name": "Quadratic equations"
   }, ...

I say opaque, as the name is not connected to some sophisticated ontology,
it's just Thing. I tried using "name" for the "Ackermann-function" over
MathML when I made my demo, but that was not the expected use, so it wasn't
picked up. The key for it being used here, I suspect, is a level up - the
parent key "educationalAlignment", defined here:
https://schema.org/educationalAlignment

So, my long-term future hope is, as long as you have a search vendor trying
to help us build our application inside schema.org, one can imagine a
"mathIntent" and/or "mathSearch" and/or "mathAlignment" etc. newly
introduced vocabulary entry, under which we can instantiate whatever
application logic is considered viable between the WG and the search
vendors.

There are a bunch of other mini "apps" (or contexts?) you can see as
subresults in the left tab. Here are some other top-level links to other
concepts I've seen with such results, I'm sure there are more:

2. Schrödinger equation (see the Formula tab)
https://g.co/kgs/DwSMiW

3. Integration by parts (see e.g. the Formula, practice problems, tabs)
https://g.co/kgs/VwvHhH

4. ceva's theorem (see e.g. practice problems)
https://g.co/kgs/frM2Wy

These do not use MathML, and the formulas I've seen are presented via
images.

Your mileage may vary, and I am not endorsing or rebuffing the "Rich
Results" pages themselves - I am very deliberately trying not to discuss
them here. The key point is that the LD+JSON structured data, deposited by
third-parties and later crawled by google, is actually used here -- for
this specific flavour of applications.

If anyone else has more context and information about rich results, please
feel most welcome to reply with additional details and thoughts about their
possible connections to MathML expressions.

Greetings,
Deyan


On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 4:32 PM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> Seems like we have reached the same conclusion that now is not the time to
> try and enhance search in math. We will discuss this further at the meeting
> this week, but I encourage anyone who disagrees with that feeling to put
> their thoughts down in email or a position paper and post that well in
> advance of the meeting so we have time to digest it.
>
>     Neil
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 3:38 PM Deyan Ginev <deyan.ginev@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> It's always great to start with the running example, thanks Neil for
>> that. In the community I'm close to, the TeX for that formula ought to be:
>>
>> \frac{1}{2 \pi} \int_{-\pi}^{\pi} e^{i(x \sin \tau-n \tau)} d \tau
>>
>> And that's what people would have as a starting point. I got it via
>> OCR-ing with MathPix.
>>
>> A little known (relatively new) feature of that one application is their
>> own limited math search, I believe only from a small selection of
>> education-related corpora (Wikipedia, StackExchange, etc), I believe based
>> around some in-house algorithm related to the LaTeX format (and not
>> MathML).
>>
>> This is not an endorsement of MathPix, but they do have my attention in
>> recent days. Just as some rough example of what a working math search ought
>> to return back to a user:
>>
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> Meanwhile, here are the result pages - when querying for this latex -
>> from a few major vendors:
>>
>> 1. Google:   DuckDuckGo and Yahoo:
>> https://www.google.com/search?q=\frac{1}{2+\pi}+\int_{-\pi}
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=%5Cfrac%7B1%7D%7B2+%5Cpi%7D+%5Cint_%7B-%5Cpi%7D>
>> ^{\pi}+e^{i(x+\sin+\tau-n+\tau)}+d+\tau
>>
>> 2. Bing:
>>
>> https://www.bing.com/search?q=%5Cfrac%7B1%7D%7B2+%5Cpi%7D+%5Cint_%7B-%5Cpi%7D%5E%7B%5Cpi%7D+e%5E%7Bi%28x+%5Csin+%5Ctau-n+%5Ctau%29%7D+d+%5Ctau
>>
>> 3. DuckDuckGo:
>>
>> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3265081/why-these-integrals-modified-from-integral-representation-of-bessel-function-are
>>
>> DuckDuckGo is particularly "daring" - they find an exact match and
>> instead of showing a return page just drop you in the stackexchange post.
>>
>> 4. Yahoo:
>> https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=\frac{1}{2+\pi}+\int_{-\pi}
>> <https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%5Cfrac%7B1%7D%7B2+%5Cpi%7D+%5Cint_%7B-%5Cpi%7D>
>> ^{\pi}+e^{i(x+\sin+\tau-n+\tau)}+d+\tau
>>
>> Statistical matches on latex strings, as expected for anyone familiar
>> with classic search engines. It's hard to read and the results are "bumpy".
>> I mentioned in our recent google doc that if you swap the order of scripts,
>> you land at *different* result pages. x_i^2 and x^2_i are not seen as the
>> same.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> My main open question is a strategic one, the obvious one to ask really,
>> targeted at the search engine vendor ecosystem:
>>
>> What is missing for Math Search to become "of interest" (i.e. supported
>> by) main browser vendors? Would that require a MathML-compatible standard
>> query language, to improve on latex search, image search, or CAS syntax
>> search? Or do we mostly need some sort of strategic recognition that math
>> search is a topic "worth investing in" beyond the baseline support for
>> application-specific plain text syntax?
>>
>> There have indeed been a lot of academic stabs at this problem, and some
>> working systems. Annual search challenges at NTCIR and recently ARQMath
>> take place over MathML 3, both Presentation and Content. I don't think the
>> available markup has been a limiting factor on that end, at least to my
>> knowledge - not *yet* at least.
>>
>> I would even venture to guess that we are posing the hard questions out
>> of order. Maybe (likely?) it is a prerequisite to get MathML Core rendering
>> in all major browsers, and have it reach a very wide positive reception,
>> before we can even start asking large vendors about what would attract them
>> for including Rich Results related to formula search.
>>
>> So there is at least one perspective where the "search" focus may be
>> better revisited in a hypothetical MathML 5 down the road...
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Deyan
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 5:54 PM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> At the meeting today, Deyan brought up that it is not possible to
>>> clearly write about potential solutions for searching math (something in
>>> our charter) when we haven't defined what we mean by 'math search'. We
>>> agreed that people would post opinions and/or links to papers that reflect
>>> their opinions.To start things off, here's my take....
>>>
>>> I think the most common math search is to search for some topic to learn
>>> about that topic. For example, someone might search for geometric
>>> progressions, Fibonacci numbers, or Bessel functions of the second kind.
>>> All of these types of searches seem well handled today because the text in
>>> documents that discuss them mention those words.
>>>
>>> The second kind of search is where I have an expression or equation and
>>> I want to know something about it. For example suppose I am reading
>>> something and it has the expression
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> Maybe some in this group recognize this, but I don't. I think this is
>>> where I would want to be able to do a search where I paste this in so I get
>>> results that help me to understand it, its properties, and its relationship
>>> to various areas.
>>>
>>> For this particular expression, I doubt many people would write it
>>> differently other than maybe using a different variable of integration or
>>> possibly using something other than 'x' (unlikely). However, in other
>>> searches, there are many equivalent expressions that might reverse the
>>> order of a sum or distribute a factor into a term. I believe dealing with
>>> all these issues (and many others) have been addressed in various research
>>> papers and specialized mathematical search engines.
>>>
>>> A quick search turns up the following math search engines:
>>> 1. wolframalpha.com
>>> 2. searchonmath.com
>>> 3. https://approach0.xyz/search/
>>> 4. https://www.google.com/imghp  (google image search)
>>>
>>> I would not normally classify Wolfram Alpha as a search engine, but it
>>> was the first hit on google for "math search engine". Also, I believe it is
>>> used by bing.
>>>
>>> Of these, only '3' returned a result that came back with the content
>>> related to the topic I grabbed the expression from. So clearly work remains
>>> to be done on math search engines. On the other hand, I'm not sure what
>>> there is for the WG to do. The input to these systems (TeX, calculator
>>> math, images) can all be derived from MathML (presentation or content).
>>>
>>> Interestingly, I tried using the TeX for this as part of a google search
>>> -- nothing very close on the first page. I also tried bing -- the first hit
>>> was close and the second hit was on topic.
>>>
>>> From this very limited experiment, my take is that the WG doesn't need
>>> to work on augmenting MathML for search (but search engines themselves need
>>> improvements). I'll leave it to those who have actually worked on search to
>>> contradict me and provide examples where augmenting presentation MathML
>>> would result in better search in the real world.
>>>
>>>     Neil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.
>>> www.avg.com
>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>> <#m_-4075487521858841656_m_-1245278739005980621_m_-7507260991899327240_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>>

The TPAC meeting organizers are asking all WGs if and when they want to 
hold meetings during TPAC (25-29 October), and to fill in this wiki page:

    https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2021/GroupMeetings

The deadline is September 10.

We previously discussed possible joint meetings with WAI ARIA and CSS.



Bert
-- 
   Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/
   http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
   bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
   +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France

On 8/17/21 4:32 PM, Neil Soiffer wrote:
> Seems like we have reached the same conclusion that now is not the time to try and enhance 
> search in math. We will discuss this further at the meeting this week, but I encourage 
> anyone who disagrees with that feeling to put their thoughts down in email or a position 
> paper and post that well in advance of the meeting so we have time to digest it.

Mostly, yes, but I had wanted to add a few points to the discussion (got sidetracked).

Full-on, genuine Math Search is a certainly a research topic. Several approaches
have been and are being explored: based on presentation or content; based on
converting the math to a special form of text and leveraging text-based search; structured 
based search, etc.  Several math-specific issues crop up: commutativity, some symbols are
essentially anonymous and others aren't (eg. \sin(x) is presumably the "same" as \sin(y),
but f(x) is not the same as g(x)) and so on.  This kind of math search is certainly *not* 
ready for any kind of standardization effort.

However, pretty much all of the accessibility approaches we've been discussing end
up associating names or words with the symbols within a math expression. and this
extra information and disambiguation inevitably must help math search (except perhaps
purely Content MathML based ones).  If only to provide an alttext for the math (if only
it were indexed, sigh).


>     On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 5:54 PM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu
>     <mailto:soiffer@alum.mit.edu>> wrote:
>         I think the most common math search is to search for some topic to learn about
>         that topic. For example, someone might search for geometric progressions,
>         Fibonacci numbers, or Bessel functions of the second kind. All of these types of
>         searches seem well handled today because the text in documents that discuss them
>         mention those words.

I think you slightly overstate the case here; wouldn't it be better if the "Fibonacci 
numbers" in the formula were recognized as such, just in case it wasn't redundant in the text?

So, it seems to me worth mentioning search as an additional motivation to annotating for 
accessibility, but I don't think that we should propose any specific methods, solutions 
etc.  Other than perhaps lobbying for at least alttext to be indexed :>

bruce


-- 
bruce.miller@nist.gov
http://math.nist.gov/~BMiller/

 We meet at our standard time on Thursday, 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern, 7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html>
for the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details
in their calendars.

Agenda:
1. Announcements/updates
2. Drop search from WG goals (and in particular, from the gap analysis)?
3. Gap Analysis Doc
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Pzsf2dqTkbYXFmoKCLzvtrNERNmtF2MHX1WtugB3PfA/edit#heading=h.c347lddsvbro>
This is the main focus of the meeting. There have been a few updates to the
doc and we still have much to discuss.

*Please re-read the doc a few hours before the meeting *as we will be
discussing the contents and what needs changing at the meeting.

Seems like we have reached the same conclusion that now is not the time to
try and enhance search in math. We will discuss this further at the meeting
this week, but I encourage anyone who disagrees with that feeling to put
their thoughts down in email or a position paper and post that well in
advance of the meeting so we have time to digest it.

    Neil


On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 3:38 PM Deyan Ginev <deyan.ginev@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> It's always great to start with the running example, thanks Neil for that.
> In the community I'm close to, the TeX for that formula ought to be:
>
> \frac{1}{2 \pi} \int_{-\pi}^{\pi} e^{i(x \sin \tau-n \tau)} d \tau
>
> And that's what people would have as a starting point. I got it via
> OCR-ing with MathPix.
>
> A little known (relatively new) feature of that one application is their
> own limited math search, I believe only from a small selection of
> education-related corpora (Wikipedia, StackExchange, etc), I believe based
> around some in-house algorithm related to the LaTeX format (and not
> MathML).
>
> This is not an endorsement of MathPix, but they do have my attention in
> recent days. Just as some rough example of what a working math search ought
> to return back to a user:
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> Meanwhile, here are the result pages - when querying for this latex - from
> a few major vendors:
>
> 1. Google:   DuckDuckGo and Yahoo:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=\frac{1}{2+\pi}+\int_{-\pi}
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=%5Cfrac%7B1%7D%7B2+%5Cpi%7D+%5Cint_%7B-%5Cpi%7D>
> ^{\pi}+e^{i(x+\sin+\tau-n+\tau)}+d+\tau
>
> 2. Bing:
>
> https://www.bing.com/search?q=%5Cfrac%7B1%7D%7B2+%5Cpi%7D+%5Cint_%7B-%5Cpi%7D%5E%7B%5Cpi%7D+e%5E%7Bi%28x+%5Csin+%5Ctau-n+%5Ctau%29%7D+d+%5Ctau
>
> 3. DuckDuckGo:
>
> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3265081/why-these-integrals-modified-from-integral-representation-of-bessel-function-are
>
> DuckDuckGo is particularly "daring" - they find an exact match and instead
> of showing a return page just drop you in the stackexchange post.
>
> 4. Yahoo:
> https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=\frac{1}{2+\pi}+\int_{-\pi}
> <https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%5Cfrac%7B1%7D%7B2+%5Cpi%7D+%5Cint_%7B-%5Cpi%7D>
> ^{\pi}+e^{i(x+\sin+\tau-n+\tau)}+d+\tau
>
> Statistical matches on latex strings, as expected for anyone familiar with
> classic search engines. It's hard to read and the results are "bumpy". I
> mentioned in our recent google doc that if you swap the order of scripts,
> you land at *different* result pages. x_i^2 and x^2_i are not seen as the
> same.
>
> ---
>
> My main open question is a strategic one, the obvious one to ask really,
> targeted at the search engine vendor ecosystem:
>
> What is missing for Math Search to become "of interest" (i.e. supported
> by) main browser vendors? Would that require a MathML-compatible standard
> query language, to improve on latex search, image search, or CAS syntax
> search? Or do we mostly need some sort of strategic recognition that math
> search is a topic "worth investing in" beyond the baseline support for
> application-specific plain text syntax?
>
> There have indeed been a lot of academic stabs at this problem, and some
> working systems. Annual search challenges at NTCIR and recently ARQMath
> take place over MathML 3, both Presentation and Content. I don't think the
> available markup has been a limiting factor on that end, at least to my
> knowledge - not *yet* at least.
>
> I would even venture to guess that we are posing the hard questions out of
> order. Maybe (likely?) it is a prerequisite to get MathML Core rendering in
> all major browsers, and have it reach a very wide positive reception,
> before we can even start asking large vendors about what would attract them
> for including Rich Results related to formula search.
>
> So there is at least one perspective where the "search" focus may be
> better revisited in a hypothetical MathML 5 down the road...
>
> Greetings,
> Deyan
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 5:54 PM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> At the meeting today, Deyan brought up that it is not possible to clearly
>> write about potential solutions for searching math (something in our
>> charter) when we haven't defined what we mean by 'math search'. We agreed
>> that people would post opinions and/or links to papers that reflect their
>> opinions.To start things off, here's my take....
>>
>> I think the most common math search is to search for some topic to learn
>> about that topic. For example, someone might search for geometric
>> progressions, Fibonacci numbers, or Bessel functions of the second kind.
>> All of these types of searches seem well handled today because the text in
>> documents that discuss them mention those words.
>>
>> The second kind of search is where I have an expression or equation and I
>> want to know something about it. For example suppose I am reading something
>> and it has the expression
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> Maybe some in this group recognize this, but I don't. I think this is
>> where I would want to be able to do a search where I paste this in so I get
>> results that help me to understand it, its properties, and its relationship
>> to various areas.
>>
>> For this particular expression, I doubt many people would write it
>> differently other than maybe using a different variable of integration or
>> possibly using something other than 'x' (unlikely). However, in other
>> searches, there are many equivalent expressions that might reverse the
>> order of a sum or distribute a factor into a term. I believe dealing with
>> all these issues (and many others) have been addressed in various research
>> papers and specialized mathematical search engines.
>>
>> A quick search turns up the following math search engines:
>> 1. wolframalpha.com
>> 2. searchonmath.com
>> 3. https://approach0.xyz/search/
>> 4. https://www.google.com/imghp  (google image search)
>>
>> I would not normally classify Wolfram Alpha as a search engine, but it
>> was the first hit on google for "math search engine". Also, I believe it is
>> used by bing.
>>
>> Of these, only '3' returned a result that came back with the content
>> related to the topic I grabbed the expression from. So clearly work remains
>> to be done on math search engines. On the other hand, I'm not sure what
>> there is for the WG to do. The input to these systems (TeX, calculator
>> math, images) can all be derived from MathML (presentation or content).
>>
>> Interestingly, I tried using the TeX for this as part of a google search
>> -- nothing very close on the first page. I also tried bing -- the first hit
>> was close and the second hit was on topic.
>>
>> From this very limited experiment, my take is that the WG doesn't need to
>> work on augmenting MathML for search (but search engines themselves need
>> improvements). I'll leave it to those who have actually worked on search to
>> contradict me and provide examples where augmenting presentation MathML
>> would result in better search in the real world.
>>
>>     Neil
>>
>>
>>
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