will go through boston

<marma> hi, I'm following this only via IRC (Martin Malmsten from KB, Stockholm)

<TomB> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html

<TomB> Scribe: Bernard

<TomB> scribenick: bernard

<ww> is the bristol dialin broken?

<ww> Does anyone know if +44 117 370 6152 still works?

<ww> I get Allison Smith's voice telling me the number I have dialed is not in service

<ww> Allison Smith is the "voice of Asterisk" so I'm guessing it comes from the W3C voice bridge not the carrier

seems that only Boston bridge is working

<Andras> as usual :-)

<TomB> ww, are you dialing Boston: +1-617-761-6200, Nice: +33.4.26.46.79.03 , Bristol: +44.203.318.0479 - some of the numbers are new

<ww> on the 020 number, Allison Smith tells me "all circuits are busy now

<ww> can't easily dial internationally at the moment :(

<ww> TomB: fwiw +4420 is London not Bristol

<ww> I think...

<ww> actually, usually 0207/0208 are london. 0203 might well be elsewhere

Admin

RESOLUTION: accept previous telecon minutes

next meetings

<jeff_> true

Tom: will circulate more informatin about F2F
... will need improvisation about phone and projector ...
... agenda is on the wiki

<emma> draft agenda for F2F : http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F_Pittsburgh

ACTION; all add their attendance on the wiki

<scribe> ACTION: all add their attendance on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html#action01]

<TomB> ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/26-lld-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html#action03]

Tom: informal meeting in Cologne

Informal meeting of XG members at SWBIB 2010 on the morning of 1 December - contact Joachim Neubert

Use cases and case studies - update

Tom: next week pick two use cases for detailed discussion

<emma> ACTION: By Monday Sept. 6 members should add to list of email lists at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Dissemination_Lists [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action05] [DONE]

<emma> ACTION: Group to comment on email text at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Call_Mail by Monday, Sept. 6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action06] [DONE]

<emma> ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08]

4. RDA

<emma> --CONTINUE

<emma> ACTION: Gordon will prepare something on RDA, FRBR etc. for discussion in Sept. agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/29-lld-minutes.html#action06] [DONE]

-- To be discussed: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data

GordonD commenting http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data

<TomB> Within IFLA, new technical group for namespaces, coordination of standards in SW framwork, etc - will report to new core activity that resurrects something abandoned a few years ago - concept of universal bibliographic control. One or two months.

GordonD: no formal connection between FRBR and RDA activities

<TomB> ... special interest group for SW issues. Producing mappings beyond IFLA, e.g. for RDA, remains semi-formal - no formal orgn looking at mappings with RDA. Only joint membership in activities.

Publication of standards in RDF not synchronized

<TomB> ... Trying to convey complexity of issues - if we are to get these standards to work together effectively.

GordonD: Issues section gathers issues discussed in both groups
... Constrained versus unconstrained properties and classes is the main issue ...

no specification of constraints in RDA ...

<emma> pressure from non-lib community for unconstrained properties but RDA, JSC and IFLA groups are convinced that constrained versions ar necessary

<emma> recent IFLA meeting consider publishing unconstrained versions, linked with constrained ones.

<matolat> zakim michaelp.a is matolat

<TomB> Gordon: IFLA persuaded, JSC coming around - have indicated they will not block unconstrained properties.

kcoyle: another issue has to do with the way constraints are expressed and how they are enforced in applications
... not sure the RDA method actually works

GordonD: constraints are not enforced on applications
... constraints are useful to check legacy data

kcoyle: there is a sort a contradiction there

<TomB> Gordon: They are constraints on _inferences_. Powerful if you consider there may be billions of triples eventually. Records can be "filled in" using inferences.

GordonD: I won't call them "unformal" constraints

<Zakim> michaelp, you wanted to talk about constraints

GordonD: We need more technical investigation

<kcoyle> hearing loud typing

Michaelp: there is a bit of confusion about constraints and validation
... In OWL the constraints are enabling, not restricting
... There are different of constraints like in XML schemas

GordonD: Indeed a big deal of confusion in this area
... RDA wants to be validated as a schema
... but also enabling as Michaelp has pointed

Jeff_: The same model can be used either as a schema, either as enabling depending on the use case

kcoyle: we should clarify which constraints we are speaking about

GordonD: There are a lot of value constraints in RDA

<emma> Karen : RDA primary constraints are about constraining a property to a FRBR entity, not the values

GordonD: RDA should keep its own versions of FRBR constraints ...

Tom: move on to next topics
... port this discussion to F2F

<jeff_> +1

<mzrcia> +1

<AlexanderH> +1

GordonD: next topic is "Application profiles or OWL ontologies"

<LarsG> * Zakim please mute me

<emma> GordonD : ISBD elements have a sequence + indicate if mandatory or not, so need for application profile

GordonD: What LLD can bring is clarification of when using application profiles and when using OWL

next topic : Use of published properties and classes

GordonD: How can library comunity be made aware of and re-use widely used classes and properties?

Need to acknowledge overlap between libray and "open Web" classes and properties

<Zakim> emma, you wanted to suggest the need to encourage the use of widespread standards

emma: Agreed with GordonD ...

it's very much an issue of trust ...

<mzrcia> FRSAD intent to use skos semantic relationships instead of repeating to define them

LLD should encourage library community not to be shy about this use

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest additional attention to "alignment" - mappings and "identity links" between vocabularies

emma: library community not used t o multiplicity of representations

<jeff_> Gordon, you should add OWL to the list of DC, FOAF, SKOS at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data#Use_of_published_properties_and_classes

<GordonD> Jeff, will do

marcia: We have already actions on declaring relationships using "sameAs" or "equivalent classes"

<mzrcia> using SKOS secmantic relationships

<mzrcia> such as broader, narrower... between themas

GordonD: The library community should not be childish in saying "not invented here"
... Elements coming from the library models will be useful elsewhere also

<GordonD> bernard: churlish, not childish

sorry: ))

<mzrcia> I was also into the discussion of reusing/borwwring the assotiative relationships between concepts/topics defined by the Getty vocabulary

GordonD: How can LLD can have action on milestones in this area?
... Library linked-data and legacy records ...

potential to generate billions of instances ...

scribe: copyright is a critical issue here ...

<emma> GordonD : Need from LLD community to encourage freeing the data

It's a political issue (How can libraries be encouraged to "free" their records?)

GordonD: Technical infrastructure ...

<emma> Library system vendors will only change if customers ask for it

How are vendors to see the ROI?

Duplication and identifiers

GordonD: identifying different records for the same thing is also a big issue ..
... Library culture ...
... sociological barriers to address ...

<rsinger> GordonD++ #awesome

<emma> +1, Thanks GordonD !

<mzrcia> +1, Gordon!

<LarsG> +1 GordonD, Great!

<TomB> +1 great summary of the issues!

<GordonD> All, thanks!

TomB: a lot of congratulations to Gordon!

<matolat> bye

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
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Default Present: TomB, +1.614.764.aaaa, +33.1.53.79.aabb, emma, Felix, Bernard, GordonD, kcoyle, +1.361.279.aacc, Alexander, Andras, +43.316.876.aadd, whalb, kefo, +1.330.655.aaee, marcia, Jonathan_Rees, +1.423.463.aaff, +49.4.aagg, jneubert, rsinger, jeff_, michaelp, +49.613.692.aahh, LarsG, gneher
Present: TomB +1.614.764.aaaa +33.1.53.79.aabb emma Felix Bernard GordonD kcoyle +1.361.279.aacc Alexander Andras +43.316.876.aadd whalb kefo +1.330.655.aaee marcia Jonathan_Rees +1.423.463.aaff +49.4.aagg jneubert rsinger jeff_ michaelp +49.613.692.aahh LarsG gneher
Regrets: Jodi Anette Joachim Monica Kim Antoine
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Sep/0058.html
Got date from IRC log name: 09 Sep 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html
People with action items: all everyone potential

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<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report