13:56:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lld
13:56:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc
13:56:31 <bernard> will go through boston
13:56:33 <TomB> rrsagent, bookmark
13:56:33 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T13-56-33
13:56:45 <TomB> zakim, this will be lld
13:56:45 <Zakim> ok, TomB, I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM already started
13:57:13 <Zakim> +??P14
13:57:23 <TomB> zakim, ??P14 is me
13:57:23 <Zakim> +TomB; got it
13:57:33 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #lld
13:57:44 <TomB> zakim, who is on the call?
13:57:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], TomB
13:57:54 <Zakim> + +1.614.764.aaaa
13:58:11 <Zakim> + +33.1.53.79.aabb
13:58:18 <TomB> zakim, aaaa is Jeff_
13:58:18 <Zakim> +Jeff_; got it
13:58:21 <marma> hi, I'm following this only via IRC (Martin Malmsten from KB, Stockholm)
13:58:22 <emma> zakim, aabb is me
13:58:22 <Zakim> +emma; got it
13:58:31 <Zakim> +??P24
13:58:42 <Zakim> +??P21
13:58:49 <TomB> zakim, ??P24 is Bernard
13:58:49 <Zakim> +Bernard; got it
13:59:07 <TomB> zakim, IPcaller is Gordon
13:59:07 <Zakim> +Gordon; got it
13:59:13 <TomB> zakim, who is on the call?
13:59:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gordon, TomB, Jeff_, emma, Bernard, Felix (muted)
13:59:14 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #lld
13:59:32 <TomB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Sep/0058.html
13:59:42 <Andras> Andras has joined #lld
13:59:48 <TomB> Regrets: Jodi, Anette, Joachim, Monica, Kim
14:00:12 <Zakim> +??P25
14:00:35 <TomB> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html
14:00:51 <TomB> rrsagent, please make record public
14:00:59 <TomB> Meeting: LLD XG
14:01:02 <Zakim> +??P29
14:01:02 <TomB> Chair: Tom
14:01:02 <whalb> whalb has joined #lld
14:01:03 <Zakim> + +1.361.279.aacc
14:01:07 <TomB> Scribe: Bernard
14:01:15 <TomB> scribenick: bernard
14:01:20 <TomB> zakim, aacc is Alexander
14:01:20 <Zakim> +Alexander; got it
14:01:28 <Andras> zakim, P29 is Andras
14:01:30 <mzrcia> mzrcia has joined #LLD
14:01:31 <Zakim> sorry, Andras, I do not recognize a party named 'P29'
14:01:39 <ww> is the bristol dialin broken?
14:01:42 <Andras> zakim, ??P29 is Andras
14:01:42 <Zakim> +Andras; got it
14:01:50 <Zakim> + +43.316.876.aadd
14:01:51 <Zakim> +[LC]
14:01:52 <TomB> Regrets+: Antoine
14:01:55 <whalb> zakim, aadd is me
14:01:56 <Zakim> +whalb; got it
14:02:06 <kefo> kefo has joined #lld
14:02:16 <TomB> zakim, LC is kefo
14:02:16 <Zakim> +kefo; got it
14:02:31 <Zakim> + +1.330.655.aaee
14:02:36 <michaelp> michaelp has joined #lld
14:03:20 <ww> Does anyone know if +44 117 370 6152 still works?
14:03:28 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Rees
14:03:41 <ww> I get Allison Smith's voice telling me the number I have dialed is not in service
14:03:55 <jar> jar has joined #lld
14:04:04 <ww> Allison Smith is the "voice of Asterisk" so I'm guessing it comes from the W3C voice bridge not the carrier
14:04:08 <bernard> seems that only Boston bridge is working
14:04:25 <Andras> as usual :-)
14:04:47 <TomB> ww, are you dialing Boston: +1-617-761-6200, Nice: +33.4.26.46.79.03 , Bristol: +44.203.318.0479  - some of the numbers are new
14:05:08 <ww> on the 020 number, Allison Smith tells me "all circuits are busy now
14:05:12 <Zakim> + +1.423.463.aaff
14:05:17 <ww> can't easily dial internationally at the moment :(
14:05:30 <Zakim> +Jeff_.a
14:05:36 <ww> TomB: fwiw +4420 is London not Bristol
14:05:37 <Zakim> + +49.4.aagg
14:05:40 <rsinger> rsinger has joined #lld
14:05:53 <ww> I think...
14:06:04 <jneubert> zakim, aagg is jneubert
14:06:07 <rsinger> Zakim, mute me
14:06:11 <Zakim> +jneubert; got it
14:06:11 <ww> actually, usually 0207/0208 are london. 0203 might well be elsewhere
14:06:12 <Zakim> sorry, rsinger, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:06:35 <michaelp> zakim, Michael is really me
14:06:35 <Zakim> +michaelp; got it
14:07:00 <rsinger> Zakim, mute me
14:07:00 <Zakim> rsinger should now be muted
14:07:04 <bernard> Admin
14:07:08 <bernard> RESOLUTION: accept previous telecon minutes
14:07:31 <bernard> next meetings
14:08:35 <jeff_> true
14:08:42 <bernard> Tom : will circulate more informatin about F2F
14:09:22 <bernard> Tom : will need improvisation about phone and projector ...
14:09:25 <LarsG> LarsG has joined #lld
14:09:39 <bernard> ... agenda is on the wiki
14:09:55 <emma> draft agenda for F2F : http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F_Pittsburgh
14:10:39 <bernard> ACTION; all add their attendance on the wiki
14:10:50 <bernard> ACTION: all add their attendance on the wiki
14:11:10 <TomB> ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F  [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/26-lld-minutes.html#action01]
14:11:15 <TomB> --continues
14:11:28 <Zakim> + +49.613.692.aahh
14:11:40 <bernard> ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F
14:12:13 <bernard> Tom : informal meeting in Cologne
14:12:26 <bernard> Informal meeting of XG members at SWBIB 2010 on       the morning of 1 December - contact Joachim Neubert
14:12:42 <bernard> Use cases and case studies - update
14:13:56 <bernard> Tom: next week pick two use cases for detailed discussion
14:14:38 <emma> ACTION: By Monday Sept. 6 members should add to list of email lists at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Dissemination_Lists [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action05]
14:14:43 <emma> --DONE
14:14:56 <emma> ACTION: Group to comment on email text at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Call_Mail by Monday, Sept. 6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action06]
14:14:58 <emma> --DONE
14:15:09 <emma> ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08]
14:15:10 <bernard> 4. RDA
14:15:12 <emma> --CONTINUE
14:15:32 <emma> ACTION: Gordon will prepare something on RDA, FRBR etc. for discussion in Sept. agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/29-lld-minutes.html#action06]
14:15:36 <emma> --DONE
14:15:39 <bernard> --  To be discussed:    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data
14:16:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html emma
14:16:11 <gneher> gneher has joined #lld
14:18:12 <bernard> GordonD commenting http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data
14:19:34 <TomB> Within IFLA, new technical group for namespaces, coordination of standards in SW framwork, etc - will report to new core activity that resurrects something abandoned a few years ago - concept of universal bibliographic control.  One or two months.
14:20:43 <Zakim> +??P20
14:21:05 <bernard> GordonD: no formal connection between FRBR and RDA activities
14:21:16 <TomB> ... special interest group for SW issues.  Producing mappings beyond IFLA, e.g. for RDA, remains semi-formal - no formal orgn looking at mappings with RDA.  Only joint membership in activiities.
14:22:02 <bernard> Publication of standards in RDF not synchronized
14:22:08 <emma> s/activiities/activities
14:22:34 <TomB> ... Trying to convey complexity of issues - if we are to get these standards to work together effectively.
14:23:14 <bernard> GordonD : Issues section gathers issues discussed in both groups
14:23:45 <bernard> GordonD: Constrained versus unconstrained properties and classes is the main issue ...
14:24:01 <matolat> matolat has joined #lld
14:25:03 <bernard> no specification of constraints in RDA ...
14:25:13 <Zakim> +michaelp.a
14:25:33 <emma> pressure from non-lib community for unconstrained properties but RDA, JSC and IFLA groups are convinced that constrained versions ar necessary
14:25:47 <kcoyle> q+
14:25:52 <emma> recent IFLA meeting consider publishing unconstrained versions, linked with constrained ones.
14:25:59 <michaelp> q+ to talk about constraints
14:26:05 <matolat> zakim michaelp.a is matolat
14:26:08 <TomB> Gordon: IFLA persuaded, JSC coming around - have indicated they will not block unconstrained properties.
14:26:13 <michaelp> zakim, unmute me
14:26:13 <Zakim> michaelp should no longer be muted
14:27:18 <bernard> kcoyle: another issue has to do with the way constraints are expressed and how they are enforced in applications
14:27:36 <bernard> kcoyle: not sure the RDA method actually works
14:28:08 <bernard> GordonD: constraints are not enforced on applications
14:28:40 <bernard> GordonD: constraints are useful to check legacy data
14:29:12 <bernard> kcoyle: there is a sort a contradiction there
14:29:31 <TomB> Gordon: They are constraints on _inferences_.  Powerful if you consider there may be billions of triples eventually.  Records can be "filled in" using inferences.
14:30:00 <bernard> GordonD: I won't call them "unformal" constraints
14:30:24 <AlexanderH> AlexanderH has joined #lld
14:30:47 <TomB> ack Michaelp
14:30:47 <Zakim> michaelp, you wanted to talk about constraints
14:31:03 <bernard> GordonD: We need more technical investigation 
14:31:24 <kcoyle> hearing loud typing
14:31:31 <bernard> Michaelp : there is a bit of confusion about constraints and validation
14:32:03 <bernard> Michaelp: In OWL the  constraints are enabling, not restricting
14:32:41 <bernard> Michaelp: There are different of constraints like in XML schemas
14:33:30 <bernard> GordonD: Indeed a big deal of confusion in this area
14:33:49 <bernard> zakim, mute me
14:33:49 <Zakim> Bernard should now be muted
14:34:08 <jeff_> q+
14:34:15 <bernard> GordonD: RDA wants to be validated as a schema
14:35:18 <bernard> GordonD: but also enabling as Michaelp has pointed
14:35:25 <TomB> ack jeff_
14:36:25 <kcoyle> q+
14:36:34 <TomB> ack kcoyle
14:36:45 <bernard> Jeff_: The same model can be used either as a schema, either as enabling depending on the use case
14:37:11 <bernard> kcoyle: we should clarify which constraints we are speaking about
14:38:00 <bernard> GordonD: There are a lot of value constraints in RDA
14:38:04 <emma> Karen : RDA primary constraints are about constraining a property to a FRBR entity, not the values
14:39:55 <bernard> GordonD: RDA should keep its own versions of FRBR constraints ...
14:40:18 <bernard> Tom : move on to next topics
14:40:37 <bernard> Tom : port this discussion to F2F
14:40:52 <jeff_> +1
14:41:01 <mzrcia> +1
14:41:02 <AlexanderH> +1
14:41:31 <bernard> GordonD : next topic is "Application profiles or OWL ontologies"
14:42:22 <LarsG> * Zakim please mute me
14:42:39 <emma> GordonD : ISBD elements have a sequence + indicate if mandatory or not, so need for application profile
14:43:25 <bernard> GordonD: What LLD can bring is clarification of when using application profiles and when using OWL
14:43:53 <bernard> next topic : Use of published properties and classes 
14:45:42 <bernard> GordonD: How can library comunity be made aware of and re-use widely used classes and properties?
14:46:12 <emma> q+ to suggest the need to encourage the use of widespread standards
14:46:35 <bernard> Need to acknowledge overlap between libray and "open Web" classes and properties
14:46:45 <TomB> q+ to suggest additional attention to  "alignment" - mappings and "identity links" between vocabularies
14:46:52 <TomB> ack emma
14:46:53 <Zakim> emma, you wanted to suggest the need to encourage the use of widespread standards
14:47:12 <bernard> emma: Agreed with GordonD ...
14:47:23 <bernard> it's very much an issue of trust ...
14:47:45 <mzrcia> FRSAD intent to use skos semantic relationships instead of repeating to define them
14:47:47 <bernard> LLD should encourage library community not to be shy about this use
14:48:15 <mzrcia> q+
14:48:25 <TomB> ack TomB
14:48:25 <Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest additional attention to  "alignment" - mappings and "identity links" between vocabularies
14:48:37 <bernard> emma: library community not used t o multiplicity of representations
14:48:53 <jeff_> Gordon, you should add OWL to the list of DC, FOAF, SKOS at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data#Use_of_published_properties_and_classes
14:49:17 <GordonD> Jeff, will do
14:49:25 <TomB> ack mzrcia
14:50:23 <bernard> marcia : We have already actions on declaring relationships using "sameAs" or "equivalent classes"
14:50:44 <mzrcia> using SKOS secmantic relationships
14:51:04 <mzrcia> such as broader, narrower... between themas
14:51:22 <kcoyle> q+
14:51:30 <bernard> GordonD: The library community should not be childish in saying "not invented here"
14:52:23 <bernard> GordonD: Elements coming from the library models will be useful elsewhere also
14:52:38 <GordonD> bernard: churlish, not childish
14:52:47 <bernard> sorry :))
14:53:01 <mzrcia> I was also into the discussion of reusing/borwwring the assotiative relationships between concepts/topics defined by the Getty vocabulary
14:53:33 <Zakim> -Felix
14:54:37 <bernard> GordonD: How can LLD can have action on milestones in this area?
14:55:23 <bernard> GordonD : Library linked-data and legacy records  ...
14:55:45 <bernard> potential to generate billions of instances ...
14:56:36 <bernard> ... copyright is a critical issue here ...
14:57:03 <emma> GordonD : Need from LLD community to encourage freeing the data
14:57:09 <bernard> It's a political issue (How can libraries be encouraged to "free" their records?)
14:57:34 <bernard> GordonD : Technical infrastructure  ...
14:58:01 <jeff_> q+
14:58:22 <emma> Library system vendors will only change if customers ask for it
14:58:25 <TomB> ack kcoyle
14:58:32 <bernard> How are vendors to see the ROI?
14:58:42 <bernard> Duplication and identifiers 
14:58:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html emma
14:59:16 <bernard> GordonD : identifying different records for the same thing is also a big issue ..
15:00:19 <bernard> ... Libray culture ...
15:00:41 <bernard> ... sociological barriers to address ...
15:00:43 <emma> s/Libray/Library
15:01:09 <jar> q?
15:01:11 <TomB> ack jeff_
15:01:17 <rsinger> GordonD++ #awesome
15:01:40 <emma> +1, Thanks GordonD !
15:02:00 <mzrcia> +1, Gordon!
15:02:21 <LarsG> +1 GordonD, Great!
15:02:23 <TomB> +1 great summary of the issues!
15:02:36 <GordonD> All, thanks!
15:02:51 <bernard> TomB : a lot of congratulations to Gordon!
15:03:00 <Zakim> -kcoyle
15:03:01 <Zakim> -whalb
15:03:03 <Zakim> -jeff_
15:03:04 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Rees
15:03:06 <Zakim> -Andras
15:03:07 <Zakim> -michaelp.a
15:03:09 <Zakim> -Alexander
15:03:11 <Zakim> -GordonD
15:03:12 <Zakim> -jneubert
15:03:13 <gneher> gneher has left #lld
15:03:14 <Zakim> -michaelp
15:03:16 <Zakim> -LarsG
15:03:17 <bernard> zakim, list attendees
15:03:18 <Zakim> -kefo
15:03:20 <Zakim> -rsinger
15:03:22 <Zakim> -marcia
15:03:23 <matolat> bye
15:03:24 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TomB, +1.614.764.aaaa, +33.1.53.79.aabb, emma, Felix, Bernard, GordonD, kcoyle, +1.361.279.aacc, Alexander, Andras, +43.316.876.aadd,
15:03:31 <Zakim> ... whalb, kefo, +1.330.655.aaee, marcia, Jonathan_Rees, +1.423.463.aaff, +49.4.aagg, jneubert, rsinger, jeff_, michaelp, +49.613.692.aahh, LarsG, gneher
15:03:32 <emma> zakim, unmute bernard
15:03:34 <michaelp> michaelp has left #lld
15:03:40 <Zakim> -gneher
15:03:41 <Zakim> Bernard should no longer be muted
15:04:12 <TomB> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:04:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html TomB
15:04:22 <emma> [adjourned]
15:08:46 <TomB> zakim, bye
15:08:46 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were TomB, +1.614.764.aaaa, +33.1.53.79.aabb, emma, Felix, Bernard, GordonD, kcoyle, +1.361.279.aacc, Alexander, Andras, +43.316.876.aadd,
15:08:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lld
15:08:49 <Zakim> ... whalb, kefo, +1.330.655.aaee, marcia, Jonathan_Rees, +1.423.463.aaff, +49.4.aagg, jneubert, rsinger, jeff_, michaelp, +49.613.692.aahh, LarsG, gneher
15:08:52 <TomB> rrsagent, bye
15:08:52 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-actions.rdf :
15:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: all add their attendance on the wiki [1]
15:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-10-50
15:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F  [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/26-lld-minutes.html#action01] [2]
15:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-11-10
15:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F [3]
15:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-11-40
15:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: By Monday Sept. 6 members should add to list of email lists at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Dissemination_Lists [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action05] [4]
15:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-14-38
15:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Group to comment on email text at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Call_Mail by Monday, Sept. 6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action06] [5]
15:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-14-56
15:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08] [6]
15:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-15-09
15:08:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gordon will prepare something on RDA, FRBR etc. for discussion in Sept. agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/29-lld-minutes.html#action06] [7]
15:08:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-15-32