IRC log of lld on 2010-09-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:25 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #lld

13:56:25 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc

13:56:31 [bernard]

will go through boston

13:56:33 [TomB]

rrsagent, bookmark

13:56:33 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T13-56-33

13:56:45 [TomB]

zakim, this will be lld

13:56:45 [Zakim]

ok, TomB, I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM already started

13:57:13 [Zakim]

+??P14

13:57:23 [TomB]

zakim, ??P14 is me

13:57:23 [Zakim]

+TomB; got it

13:57:33 [fsasaki]

fsasaki has joined #lld

13:57:44 [TomB]

zakim, who is on the call?

13:57:44 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [IPcaller], TomB

13:57:54 [Zakim]

+ +1.614.764.aaaa

13:58:11 [Zakim]

+ +33.1.53.79.aabb

13:58:18 [TomB]

zakim, aaaa is Jeff_

13:58:18 [Zakim]

+Jeff_; got it

13:58:21 [marma]

hi, I'm following this only via IRC (Martin Malmsten from KB, Stockholm)

13:58:22 [emma]

zakim, aabb is me

13:58:22 [Zakim]

+emma; got it

13:58:31 [Zakim]

+??P24

13:58:42 [Zakim]

+??P21

13:58:49 [TomB]

zakim, ??P24 is Bernard

13:58:49 [Zakim]

+Bernard; got it

13:59:07 [TomB]

zakim, IPcaller is Gordon

13:59:07 [Zakim]

+Gordon; got it

13:59:13 [TomB]

zakim, who is on the call?

13:59:13 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Gordon, TomB, Jeff_, emma, Bernard, Felix (muted)

13:59:14 [kcoyle]

kcoyle has joined #lld

13:59:32 [TomB]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Sep/0058.html

13:59:42 [Andras]

Andras has joined #lld

13:59:48 [TomB]

Regrets: Jodi, Anette, Joachim, Monica, Kim

14:00:12 [Zakim]

+??P25

14:00:35 [TomB]

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html

14:00:51 [TomB]

rrsagent, please make record public

14:00:59 [TomB]

Meeting: LLD XG

14:01:02 [Zakim]

+??P29

14:01:02 [TomB]

Chair: Tom

14:01:02 [whalb]

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14:01:03 [Zakim]

+ +1.361.279.aacc

14:01:07 [TomB]

Scribe: Bernard

14:01:15 [TomB]

scribenick: bernard

14:01:20 [TomB]

zakim, aacc is Alexander

14:01:20 [Zakim]

+Alexander; got it

14:01:28 [Andras]

zakim, P29 is Andras

14:01:30 [mzrcia]

mzrcia has joined #LLD

14:01:31 [Zakim]

sorry, Andras, I do not recognize a party named 'P29'

14:01:39 [ww]

is the bristol dialin broken?

14:01:42 [Andras]

zakim, ??P29 is Andras

14:01:42 [Zakim]

+Andras; got it

14:01:50 [Zakim]

+ +43.316.876.aadd

14:01:51 [Zakim]

+[LC]

14:01:52 [TomB]

Regrets+: Antoine

14:01:55 [whalb]

zakim, aadd is me

14:01:56 [Zakim]

+whalb; got it

14:02:06 [kefo]

kefo has joined #lld

14:02:16 [TomB]

zakim, LC is kefo

14:02:16 [Zakim]

+kefo; got it

14:02:31 [Zakim]

+ +1.330.655.aaee

14:02:36 [michaelp]

michaelp has joined #lld

14:03:20 [ww]

Does anyone know if +44 117 370 6152 still works?

14:03:28 [Zakim]

+Jonathan_Rees

14:03:41 [ww]

I get Allison Smith's voice telling me the number I have dialed is not in service

14:03:55 [jar]

jar has joined #lld

14:04:04 [ww]

Allison Smith is the "voice of Asterisk" so I'm guessing it comes from the W3C voice bridge not the carrier

14:04:08 [bernard]

seems that only Boston bridge is working

14:04:25 [Andras]

as usual :-)

14:04:47 [TomB]

ww, are you dialing Boston: +1-617-761-6200, Nice: +33.4.26.46.79.03 , Bristol: +44.203.318.0479 - some of the numbers are new

14:05:08 [ww]

on the 020 number, Allison Smith tells me "all circuits are busy now

14:05:12 [Zakim]

+ +1.423.463.aaff

14:05:17 [ww]

can't easily dial internationally at the moment :(

14:05:30 [Zakim]

+Jeff_.a

14:05:36 [ww]

TomB: fwiw +4420 is London not Bristol

14:05:37 [Zakim]

+ +49.4.aagg

14:05:40 [rsinger]

rsinger has joined #lld

14:05:53 [ww]

I think...

14:06:04 [jneubert]

zakim, aagg is jneubert

14:06:07 [rsinger]

Zakim, mute me

14:06:11 [Zakim]

+jneubert; got it

14:06:11 [ww]

actually, usually 0207/0208 are london. 0203 might well be elsewhere

14:06:12 [Zakim]

sorry, rsinger, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

14:06:35 [michaelp]

zakim, Michael is really me

14:06:35 [Zakim]

+michaelp; got it

14:07:00 [rsinger]

Zakim, mute me

14:07:00 [Zakim]

rsinger should now be muted

14:07:04 [bernard]

Admin

14:07:08 [bernard]

RESOLUTION: accept previous telecon minutes

14:07:31 [bernard]

next meetings

14:08:35 [jeff_]

true

14:08:42 [bernard]

Tom : will circulate more informatin about F2F

14:09:22 [bernard]

Tom : will need improvisation about phone and projector ...

14:09:25 [LarsG]

LarsG has joined #lld

14:09:39 [bernard]

... agenda is on the wiki

14:09:55 [emma]

draft agenda for F2F : http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F_Pittsburgh

14:10:39 [bernard]

ACTION; all add their attendance on the wiki

14:10:50 [bernard]

ACTION: all add their attendance on the wiki

14:11:10 [TomB]

ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/26-lld-minutes.html#action01]

14:11:15 [TomB]

--continues

14:11:28 [Zakim]

+ +49.613.692.aahh

14:11:40 [bernard]

ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F

14:12:13 [bernard]

Tom : informal meeting in Cologne

14:12:26 [bernard]

Informal meeting of XG members at SWBIB 2010 on the morning of 1 December - contact Joachim Neubert

14:12:42 [bernard]

Use cases and case studies - update

14:13:56 [bernard]

Tom: next week pick two use cases for detailed discussion

14:14:38 [emma]

ACTION: By Monday Sept. 6 members should add to list of email lists at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Dissemination_Lists [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action05]

14:14:43 [emma]

--DONE

14:14:56 [emma]

ACTION: Group to comment on email text at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Call_Mail by Monday, Sept. 6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action06]

14:14:58 [emma]

--DONE

14:15:09 [emma]

ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08]

14:15:10 [bernard]

4. RDA

14:15:12 [emma]

--CONTINUE

14:15:32 [emma]

ACTION: Gordon will prepare something on RDA, FRBR etc. for discussion in Sept. agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/29-lld-minutes.html#action06]

14:15:36 [emma]

--DONE

14:15:39 [bernard]

-- To be discussed: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data

14:16:08 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html emma

14:16:11 [gneher]

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14:18:12 [bernard]

GordonD commenting http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data

14:19:34 [TomB]

Within IFLA, new technical group for namespaces, coordination of standards in SW framwork, etc - will report to new core activity that resurrects something abandoned a few years ago - concept of universal bibliographic control. One or two months.

14:20:43 [Zakim]

+??P20

14:21:05 [bernard]

GordonD: no formal connection between FRBR and RDA activities

14:21:16 [TomB]

... special interest group for SW issues. Producing mappings beyond IFLA, e.g. for RDA, remains semi-formal - no formal orgn looking at mappings with RDA. Only joint membership in activiities.

14:22:02 [bernard]

Publication of standards in RDF not synchronized

14:22:08 [emma]

s/activiities/activities

14:22:34 [TomB]

... Trying to convey complexity of issues - if we are to get these standards to work together effectively.

14:23:14 [bernard]

GordonD : Issues section gathers issues discussed in both groups

14:23:45 [bernard]

GordonD: Constrained versus unconstrained properties and classes is the main issue ...

14:24:01 [matolat]

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14:25:03 [bernard]

no specification of constraints in RDA ...

14:25:13 [Zakim]

+michaelp.a

14:25:33 [emma]

pressure from non-lib community for unconstrained properties but RDA, JSC and IFLA groups are convinced that constrained versions ar necessary

14:25:47 [kcoyle]

q+

14:25:52 [emma]

recent IFLA meeting consider publishing unconstrained versions, linked with constrained ones.

14:25:59 [michaelp]

q+ to talk about constraints

14:26:05 [matolat]

zakim michaelp.a is matolat

14:26:08 [TomB]

Gordon: IFLA persuaded, JSC coming around - have indicated they will not block unconstrained properties.

14:26:13 [michaelp]

zakim, unmute me

14:26:13 [Zakim]

michaelp should no longer be muted

14:27:18 [bernard]

kcoyle: another issue has to do with the way constraints are expressed and how they are enforced in applications

14:27:36 [bernard]

kcoyle: not sure the RDA method actually works

14:28:08 [bernard]

GordonD: constraints are not enforced on applications

14:28:40 [bernard]

GordonD: constraints are useful to check legacy data

14:29:12 [bernard]

kcoyle: there is a sort a contradiction there

14:29:31 [TomB]

Gordon: They are constraints on _inferences_. Powerful if you consider there may be billions of triples eventually. Records can be "filled in" using inferences.

14:30:00 [bernard]

GordonD: I won't call them "unformal" constraints

14:30:24 [AlexanderH]

AlexanderH has joined #lld

14:30:47 [TomB]

ack Michaelp

14:30:47 [Zakim]

michaelp, you wanted to talk about constraints

14:31:03 [bernard]

GordonD: We need more technical investigation

14:31:24 [kcoyle]

hearing loud typing

14:31:31 [bernard]

Michaelp : there is a bit of confusion about constraints and validation

14:32:03 [bernard]

Michaelp: In OWL the constraints are enabling, not restricting

14:32:41 [bernard]

Michaelp: There are different of constraints like in XML schemas

14:33:30 [bernard]

GordonD: Indeed a big deal of confusion in this area

14:33:49 [bernard]

zakim, mute me

14:33:49 [Zakim]

Bernard should now be muted

14:34:08 [jeff_]

q+

14:34:15 [bernard]

GordonD: RDA wants to be validated as a schema

14:35:18 [bernard]

GordonD: but also enabling as Michaelp has pointed

14:35:25 [TomB]

ack jeff_

14:36:25 [kcoyle]

q+

14:36:34 [TomB]

ack kcoyle

14:36:45 [bernard]

Jeff_: The same model can be used either as a schema, either as enabling depending on the use case

14:37:11 [bernard]

kcoyle: we should clarify which constraints we are speaking about

14:38:00 [bernard]

GordonD: There are a lot of value constraints in RDA

14:38:04 [emma]

Karen : RDA primary constraints are about constraining a property to a FRBR entity, not the values

14:39:55 [bernard]

GordonD: RDA should keep its own versions of FRBR constraints ...

14:40:18 [bernard]

Tom : move on to next topics

14:40:37 [bernard]

Tom : port this discussion to F2F

14:40:52 [jeff_]

+1

14:41:01 [mzrcia]

+1

14:41:02 [AlexanderH]

+1

14:41:31 [bernard]

GordonD : next topic is "Application profiles or OWL ontologies"

14:42:22 [LarsG]

* Zakim please mute me

14:42:39 [emma]

GordonD : ISBD elements have a sequence + indicate if mandatory or not, so need for application profile

14:43:25 [bernard]

GordonD: What LLD can bring is clarification of when using application profiles and when using OWL

14:43:53 [bernard]

next topic : Use of published properties and classes

14:45:42 [bernard]

GordonD: How can library comunity be made aware of and re-use widely used classes and properties?

14:46:12 [emma]

q+ to suggest the need to encourage the use of widespread standards

14:46:35 [bernard]

Need to acknowledge overlap between libray and "open Web" classes and properties

14:46:45 [TomB]

q+ to suggest additional attention to "alignment" - mappings and "identity links" between vocabularies

14:46:52 [TomB]

ack emma

14:46:53 [Zakim]

emma, you wanted to suggest the need to encourage the use of widespread standards

14:47:12 [bernard]

emma: Agreed with GordonD ...

14:47:23 [bernard]

it's very much an issue of trust ...

14:47:45 [mzrcia]

FRSAD intent to use skos semantic relationships instead of repeating to define them

14:47:47 [bernard]

LLD should encourage library community not to be shy about this use

14:48:15 [mzrcia]

q+

14:48:25 [TomB]

ack TomB

14:48:25 [Zakim]

TomB, you wanted to suggest additional attention to "alignment" - mappings and "identity links" between vocabularies

14:48:37 [bernard]

emma: library community not used t o multiplicity of representations

14:48:53 [jeff_]

Gordon, you should add OWL to the list of DC, FOAF, SKOS at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data#Use_of_published_properties_and_classes

14:49:17 [GordonD]

Jeff, will do

14:49:25 [TomB]

ack mzrcia

14:50:23 [bernard]

marcia : We have already actions on declaring relationships using "sameAs" or "equivalent classes"

14:50:44 [mzrcia]

using SKOS secmantic relationships

14:51:04 [mzrcia]

such as broader, narrower... between themas

14:51:22 [kcoyle]

q+

14:51:30 [bernard]

GordonD: The library community should not be childish in saying "not invented here"

14:52:23 [bernard]

GordonD: Elements coming from the library models will be useful elsewhere also

14:52:38 [GordonD]

bernard: churlish, not childish

14:52:47 [bernard]

sorry :))

14:53:01 [mzrcia]

I was also into the discussion of reusing/borwwring the assotiative relationships between concepts/topics defined by the Getty vocabulary

14:53:33 [Zakim]

-Felix

14:54:37 [bernard]

GordonD: How can LLD can have action on milestones in this area?

14:55:23 [bernard]

GordonD : Library linked-data and legacy records ...

14:55:45 [bernard]

potential to generate billions of instances ...

14:56:36 [bernard]

... copyright is a critical issue here ...

14:57:03 [emma]

GordonD : Need from LLD community to encourage freeing the data

14:57:09 [bernard]

It's a political issue (How can libraries be encouraged to "free" their records?)

14:57:34 [bernard]

GordonD : Technical infrastructure ...

14:58:01 [jeff_]

q+

14:58:22 [emma]

Library system vendors will only change if customers ask for it

14:58:25 [TomB]

ack kcoyle

14:58:32 [bernard]

How are vendors to see the ROI?

14:58:42 [bernard]

Duplication and identifiers

14:58:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html emma

14:59:16 [bernard]

GordonD : identifying different records for the same thing is also a big issue ..

15:00:19 [bernard]

... Libray culture ...

15:00:41 [bernard]

... sociological barriers to address ...

15:00:43 [emma]

s/Libray/Library

15:01:09 [jar]

q?

15:01:11 [TomB]

ack jeff_

15:01:17 [rsinger]

GordonD++ #awesome

15:01:40 [emma]

+1, Thanks GordonD !

15:02:00 [mzrcia]

+1, Gordon!

15:02:21 [LarsG]

+1 GordonD, Great!

15:02:23 [TomB]

+1 great summary of the issues!

15:02:36 [GordonD]

All, thanks!

15:02:51 [bernard]

TomB : a lot of congratulations to Gordon!

15:03:00 [Zakim]

-kcoyle

15:03:01 [Zakim]

-whalb

15:03:03 [Zakim]

-jeff_

15:03:04 [Zakim]

-Jonathan_Rees

15:03:06 [Zakim]

-Andras

15:03:07 [Zakim]

-michaelp.a

15:03:09 [Zakim]

-Alexander

15:03:11 [Zakim]

-GordonD

15:03:12 [Zakim]

-jneubert

15:03:13 [gneher]

gneher has left #lld

15:03:14 [Zakim]

-michaelp

15:03:16 [Zakim]

-LarsG

15:03:17 [bernard]

zakim, list attendees

15:03:18 [Zakim]

-kefo

15:03:20 [Zakim]

-rsinger

15:03:22 [Zakim]

-marcia

15:03:23 [matolat]

bye

15:03:24 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been TomB, +1.614.764.aaaa, +33.1.53.79.aabb, emma, Felix, Bernard, GordonD, kcoyle, +1.361.279.aacc, Alexander, Andras, +43.316.876.aadd,

15:03:31 [Zakim]

... whalb, kefo, +1.330.655.aaee, marcia, Jonathan_Rees, +1.423.463.aaff, +49.4.aagg, jneubert, rsinger, jeff_, michaelp, +49.613.692.aahh, LarsG, gneher

15:03:32 [emma]

zakim, unmute bernard

15:03:34 [michaelp]

michaelp has left #lld

15:03:40 [Zakim]

-gneher

15:03:41 [Zakim]

Bernard should no longer be muted

15:04:12 [TomB]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:04:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html TomB

15:04:22 [emma]

[adjourned]

15:08:46 [TomB]

zakim, bye

15:08:46 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were TomB, +1.614.764.aaaa, +33.1.53.79.aabb, emma, Felix, Bernard, GordonD, kcoyle, +1.361.279.aacc, Alexander, Andras, +43.316.876.aadd,

15:08:46 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #lld

15:08:49 [Zakim]

... whalb, kefo, +1.330.655.aaee, marcia, Jonathan_Rees, +1.423.463.aaff, +49.4.aagg, jneubert, rsinger, jeff_, michaelp, +49.613.692.aahh, LarsG, gneher

15:08:52 [TomB]

rrsagent, bye

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-actions.rdf :

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: all add their attendance on the wiki [1]

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-10-50

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/26-lld-minutes.html#action01] [2]

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-11-10

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F [3]

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-11-40

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: By Monday Sept. 6 members should add to list of email lists at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Dissemination_Lists [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action05] [4]

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-14-38

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Group to comment on email text at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Call_Mail by Monday, Sept. 6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action06] [5]

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-14-56

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08] [6]

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-15-09

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Gordon will prepare something on RDA, FRBR etc. for discussion in Sept. agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/29-lld-minutes.html#action06] [7]

15:08:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-irc#T14-15-32