# Planet MathML

The Planet MathML aggregates posts from various blogs that concern MathML. Although it is hosted by W3C, the content of the individual entries represent only the opinion of their respective authors and does not reflect the position of W3C.

## Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Charles LaPierre (charlesl@benetech.org) • August 17, 2017 • Permalink

I tried in chrome

https://appear.in/mathonweb

and it is not working for me sorry.

Thanks
EOM

Charles LaPierre
Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>
Skype: charles_lapierre
Phone: 650-600-3301

On Aug 17, 2017, at 9:08 AM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>> wrote:

Hi Peter,

I tried to call in, but Google Hangouts just hung.

Tzviya Siegman
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter@krautzource.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 8:56 AM
To: mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org<mailto:public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>>
Subject: Reminder: Meeting today

Hi everyone,

We are scheduled to meet today, Aug 17, 12pm Eastern time.

We'll be focusing (and deciding) on a TPAC meeting.

Best,
Peter.


## RE: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken (tsiegman@wiley.com) • August 17, 2017 • Permalink

Hi Peter,

I tried to call in, but Google Hangouts just hung.

Tzviya Siegman
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter@krautzource.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 8:56 AM
To: mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>
Subject: Reminder: Meeting today

Hi everyone,

We are scheduled to meet today, Aug 17, 12pm Eastern time.

We'll be focusing (and deciding) on a TPAC meeting.

Best,
Peter.


## Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • August 17, 2017 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

We are scheduled to meet today, Aug 17, 12pm Eastern time.

We'll be focusing (and deciding) on a TPAC meeting.

Best,
Peter.


## RE: [math-on-web] TPAC Poll

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken (tsiegman@wiley.com) • August 07, 2017 • Permalink



Tzviya Siegman
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter@krautzource.com]
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 6:42 AM
To: mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>
Subject: [math-on-web] TPAC Poll

Hi everyone,

As per the last meeting, we would like to do a quick poll regarding TPAC [1].

1. Will you be at TPAC this year?
Yes

2. Will you be in the Bay area around TPAC?
yes

3. Would you join a CG meeting at TPAC?
It depends on timing and conflicts

4. Would you join a CG meeting outside of TPAC?
It depends on timing and conflicts

5. Would you join a CG meeting remotely?
It depends on timing and conflicts
Please send a quick response (to me or Dani) before the next CG meeting on Aug 17.

Best regards,
Peter.

[1] https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/Overview.html



## [math-on-web] TPAC Poll

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • August 07, 2017 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

As per the last meeting, we would like to do a quick poll regarding TPAC
[1].

1. Will you be at TPAC this year?
2. Will you be in the Bay area around TPAC?
3. Would you join a CG meeting at TPAC?
4. Would you join a CG meeting outside of TPAC?
5. Would you join a CG meeting remotely?

Please send a quick response (to me or Dani) before the next CG meeting on
Aug 17.

Best regards,
Peter.

[1] https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/Overview.html


## [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/08/03

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • August 07, 2017 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Below are the minutes from the CG meeting last week. A bit more condensed
than usual.

The next meeting will be on August 17 and we'll be focusing (and deciding)
on a TPAC meeting.

Best,
Peter.

# [math on web CG] minutes 2017-08-03

* Present: Volker, Charles, Kevin, Peter

* Volker: should there be a meeting at TPAC? If so, when?
* Peter: I can't be there, I'm afraid
* Charles: I'll be there
* Volker: whne is it?
* https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/Overview.html, Nov 6-10
* Charles: PWG is meeting 6&7
* 9&10 Publishing summit
* Volker: restrictions for CG?
* not days but 4 groups per day
* Volker: Dani said he'd probably be there
* Volker: if there's a meeting with CSS WG
* Peter: as Tzviya said, make early plans with CSS, they are very busy
* Peter: make another call to action on mailing list?
* => ACTION
* Charles: maybe ARIA WG as well, to talk about semantics?
* Volker: maybe good. E.g., clarifying math role
* Volker: ACTION maybe email should be straw poll who will be there anyway
* Peter: maybe poll for who's in the area, maybe off-site/schedule
meeting is of interes
* Charles: q about MathJax: if I have an image and MathML, once MathJax
does the mathML, will there be two visuals?
* Peter: yes. but you can hook into MathJax to remove the image after
rendering
* Peter: next meeting topic: maybe my suggestion for stepping back and
talking about why each of us is here?


## Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Liam R. E. Quin (liam@w3.org) • August 05, 2017 • Permalink

On Tue, 2017-07-11 at 15:58 +0200, Daniel Marques wrote:
> Hi Liam,
>
> Sorry for my delayed answer but I'm in the middle of closing many
> projects.
No problem, same here!

>
> It is great that some people still think that with CSS should be
> possible to do mathematics easier. It is probably very improbable to
> be able to do all the MathML specification. But, at least, simple
> formulas with fractions, roots and matrices, among others, should be
> achievable.

Yes, for sure.

>
> You say
> > If this CG were to come up with a list of the most urgent things
> > together
> > with some tests (and patches for browsers?) I can see something
> > happening.
>
> That's for sure a starting point and makes sense working in this
> direction.
> We can elaborate it more during the following group meetings.

Thanks, cool. A "next next step" might be to explore some polyfills.

Liam

--
Liam Quin, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Staff contact for Verifiable Claims WG, XQuery WG

Web slave for http://www.fromoldbooks.org/


## MathJax v2.7.2 beta now available

Source: MathJax • August 04, 2017 • Permalink

Today we are entering the public beta phase of MathJax v2.7.2, a bug-fix release with over 30 important bug fixes.

This release includes a workaround for a regression in Safari when using combining characters as well as an important update to the MathJax Accessibility Extensions and the underlying speech-rule-engine, greatly improving performance and quality.

For details on all bug fixes, please see below.

The beta should be available on all CDN providers, e..g., cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/mathjax/2.7.2-beta.1/MathJax.js which you can load it in place of the version you are currently using. Alternatively, you can get a ZIP archive or access the branch on GitHub.

Remember that this is still beta software, so if you are not an experienced user, you may want to wait for the official 2.7.2 release. We do not recommend that you use the -beta version for production environments, but do encourage you to test your content with it.

The official release of v2.7.2 should occur within the next few weeks, but we want you to be able to start to test out the v2.7.2 features now. Please report any bugs you find to the issue tracker at https://github.com/mathjax/MathJax/issues.

Thanks for your continuing interest in MathJax. We hope that this release makes your MathJax experience even better.

The MathJax Team.

## New in MathJax v2.7.2

### Accessibility

• Upgrade Accessibility Extensions to v1.2.3

### API

• Properly handle arrays of elements in Typeset() call without callbacks. #1680 #1794

### Output

• Remap newlines to spaces. #1694 #1783
• Fix placement of underlines in script styles. #1686 #1792
• [CommonHTML] Fix problem with ex-height detection in some instances. #1664 #1671
• [CommonHTML] Add space between fractions when useMMLspacing is in effect. #1626 #1786
• [CommonHTML] Don't force width of large collections of text. #1718 #1788
• [CommonHTML] Fix bounding box issues with some stretchy characters. #1712 #1789
• [CommonHTML] Fix problem with table row and column lines #1711 #1790
• [CommonHTML] Improve position of stretchy accents. #1735 #1787
• [CommonHTML] Fix problem with <=> arrow in mhchem. 1657 #1795
• [CommonHTML] Fix getNode() method not descending into all the children. #1691 #1791
• [CommonHTML] Use non-combining vector arrow to work-around Safari regression. #1709 #1796
• [CommonHTML] [SVG] Localize some variables that where accidentally global. #1806 #1809
• [HTML-CSS] Work around for regression in Safari wrt combining characters. #1737 #1775
• [HTML-CSS] Handle FontFaceBug interaction with web fonts in Chrome. #1774 #1776
• [HTML-CSS] Fix typo in STIX font data. #1683 #1785
• [HTML-CSS] Fix positioning problem with accents at large math sizes. #1798. #1799
• [HTML-CSS] [SVG] Add minimum height for accents. #1706 #1781

### Input

• [TeX] Allow negative dimensions in \Rule and add \rule macro. #1666 #1673
• [TeX] Better error messages for \shoveleft and \shoveright. #1701 #1782
• [TeX] Better test for \text{} in \cases{}. #1482 #1793
• [TeX] Fix spacing aligned/alignedat. #1690 #1784
• [TeX] Add more unicode-based intergrals for mediawiki-texvc. #1723 #1810
• [MathML] Fix problem with namespaces on internal element. #1755 #1756

### Interface:

• Fix typo in the localization menu #1746

### Misc.

• Fixed typos in comments #1660
• Fix trailing comma #1670
• Fix typo in function name #1797

## Reminder: meeting August 3

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • August 02, 2017 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

We are scheduled to meet Thursday, Aug 3, 12pm Eastern time.

The meeting can continue where the last one left off.
I'd propose to step back and reflect a bit on where people want to go.

Best,
Peter.


## Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Florian Rivoal (florian@rivoal.net) • July 21, 2017 • Permalink

It isn't wrong to put things in the WICG's discourse in the CSS category, but note that relatively few members of the CSSWG ever look there. If you don't feel ready to make a proposal to the CSSWG, this is potentially a good place to keep baking your ideas until you feel ready to present them, but if you do feel ready to talk about them, the CSSWG's github issues[1] or mailing list[2] are much more likely to get CSS people's attention.

—Florian

[1] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues
[2] www-style@w3.org

> On Jul 21, 2017, at 20:26, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com> wrote:
>
> That looks good. I recommend adding something to the Web Incubator CG at https://discourse.wicg.io <https://discourse.wicg.io/> in the CSS category.
>
> Tzviya Siegman
> Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>
>
> From: Daniel Marques [mailto:dani@wiris.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 6:18 AM
> To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com>; Jean Kaplansky <jeankap@earthlink.net>; Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org>
> Cc: Volker Sorge <volker.sorge@gmail.com>; mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>; Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>
> Subject: RE: Reminder: Meeting today
>
> Hi Tzviya,
>
> Thanks for the information regarding the submissions.
>
> Just wondering how much in advance… Regarding polyfills, did you mean something likehttps://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/fraction1.html <https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/fraction1.html> (this is work in progress) ?
>
> Regards,
>   <>
> Dani
>
> From: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken [mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>]
> Sent: jueves, 20 de julio de 2017 22:37
> To: Jean Kaplansky; Arno Gourdol
> Cc: Volker Sorge; Daniel Marques; mathonweb; Peter Krautzberger
> Subject: RE: Reminder: Meeting today
>
> Hi All,
>
> Apologies for not being attend. If you have proposals for the CSS WG, you should get them to the group well in advance of TPAC. They usually have a really packed schedule. The way CSS tends to work these days is with submissions of polyfills, not just ideas.
>
> Tzviya
>
> Tzviya Siegman
> Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>
>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:18 PM
> To: Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org <mailto:arno@arno.org>>
> Cc: Volker Sorge <volker.sorge@gmail.com <mailto:volker.sorge@gmail.com>>; Daniel Marques <dani@wiris.com <mailto:dani@wiris.com>>; mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org <mailto:public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>>; Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com <mailto:peter@krautzource.com>>
> Subject: Re: Reminder: Meeting today
>
> Hi, Everyone -
>
> K-12 publishing in the Western Hemisphere will be eternally grateful if you guys can take up the elementary math use cases with the CSS group too. Long division and Stacked Equations especially.
>
> I'll keep an eye out for any google doc you guys may start to make sure that these use cases get on the list.
>
> Thanks for considering.
>
> Best,
>
> Jean Kaplansky
> Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
> Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
> Instructional Designer
> +1.518.930.1068
> @jeankaplansky
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org <mailto:arno@arno.org>> wrote:
>
> Minutes from 20 JULY 2017 Math On Web telcon
> Minute taker: Arno.
> Dani: would like to discuss with CSS WG about possibility to incorporate new CSS features that would suit out needs for mathematics.
>
>
>
> At TPAC, we have the possibility to discuss with CSS WG what we would need to display mathematics without JS.
>
>
>
> First we would need the scope of equations we want to support: fractions, matrix, big operators, supsub…?
>
>
>
> Second, explain why CSS as it is is not enough to do represent those equations
>
>
>
> Third, provide some hint/prototypes of what the solution could look like, perhaps with a Javascript implementation.
>
>
>
> We need to do some planing to prepare for this, vacations are coming up for everyone.
>
>
>
> Neil: I’m away in August.
>
>
>
> Neil: For large operators, would that include stretchy parens?
>
>
>
> Dani: yes, probably.
>
>
>
> Neil: if we can suggest to the CSS WG some non-math use cases, that will help motivate them
>
>
>
> Dani: which math would we want to do? For example, fractions?
>
>
>
> Neil: Wouldn’t Peter have a list like that? Has he approached the CSS WG already with some proposals?
>
>
>
> Dani: not that I’m aware of. Peter has had some unofficial conversations, perhaps.
>
>
>
> Neil/John: square roots would be useful as well.
>
>
>
> Neil: are fractions actually a problem?
>
>
>
> Dani: sometimes the fraction bar need to be moved up or down, and it needs to be computed depending on the font size.
>
>
>
> Arno: we would probably need to have the concept of “math axis” similar to the “baseline” that exist today
>
>
>
> Dani: flex box allows vertical alignments, and that helps for fractions and big operators
>
>
>
> Neil: sounds like flex box is solving the problem for big operators, then?
>
>
>
> Dani: yes, partially. But you need to move the operator to align with the math axis.
>
>
>
> John: sounds like we need to work on a list of those cases
>
>
>
> Arno: we also need to think of integrals that require limits to be displayed offset from the symbol
>
>
>
> John: is there that list somewhere?
>
>
>
> Neil: I thought Peter had something, but that may have been a long time ago…
>
>
>
> Arno: I’d suggest creating a Google Docs that we could all collaborate on, with the goal of having something ready in time for TPAC.
>
>
>
> Dani: I will create the document and share it with the group so we can start collaborating on these ideas.
>


## RE: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken (tsiegman@wiley.com) • July 21, 2017 • Permalink

That looks good. I recommend adding something to the Web Incubator CG at https://discourse.wicg.io in the CSS category.

Tzviya Siegman
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Daniel Marques [mailto:dani@wiris.com]
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 6:18 AM
To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com>; Jean Kaplansky <jeankap@earthlink.net>; Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org>
Cc: Volker Sorge <volker.sorge@gmail.com>; mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>; Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>
Subject: RE: Reminder: Meeting today

Hi Tzviya,

Thanks for the information regarding the submissions.

Just wondering how much in advance… Regarding polyfills, did you mean something like https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/fraction1.html (this is work in progress) ?

Regards,

Dani

From: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken [mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>]
Sent: jueves, 20 de julio de 2017 22:37
To: Jean Kaplansky; Arno Gourdol
Cc: Volker Sorge; Daniel Marques; mathonweb; Peter Krautzberger
Subject: RE: Reminder: Meeting today

Hi All,

Apologies for not being attend. If you have proposals for the CSS WG, you should get them to the group well in advance of TPAC. They usually have a really packed schedule. The way CSS tends to work these days is with submissions of polyfills, not just ideas.

Tzviya

Tzviya Siegman
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:18 PM
To: Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org<mailto:arno@arno.org>>
Cc: Volker Sorge <volker.sorge@gmail.com<mailto:volker.sorge@gmail.com>>; Daniel Marques <dani@wiris.com<mailto:dani@wiris.com>>; mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org<mailto:public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>>; Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com<mailto:peter@krautzource.com>>
Subject: Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Hi, Everyone -

K-12 publishing in the Western Hemisphere will be eternally grateful if you guys can take up the elementary math use cases with the CSS group too. Long division and Stacked Equations especially.

I'll keep an eye out for any google doc you guys may start to make sure that these use cases get on the list.

Thanks for considering.

Best,

Jean Kaplansky
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068
@jeankaplansky

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org<mailto:arno@arno.org>> wrote:

Minutes from 20 JULY 2017 Math On Web telcon
Minute taker: Arno.

Dani: would like to discuss with CSS WG about possibility to incorporate new CSS features that would suit out needs for mathematics.

At TPAC, we have the possibility to discuss with CSS WG what we would need to display mathematics without JS.

First we would need the scope of equations we want to support: fractions, matrix, big operators, supsub…?

Second, explain why CSS as it is is not enough to do represent those equations

Third, provide some hint/prototypes of what the solution could look like, perhaps with a Javascript implementation.

We need to do some planing to prepare for this, vacations are coming up for everyone.

Neil: I’m away in August.

Neil: For large operators, would that include stretchy parens?

Dani: yes, probably.

Neil: if we can suggest to the CSS WG some non-math use cases, that will help motivate them

Dani: which math would we want to do? For example, fractions?

Neil: Wouldn’t Peter have a list like that? Has he approached the CSS WG already with some proposals?

Dani: not that I’m aware of. Peter has had some unofficial conversations, perhaps.

Neil/John: square roots would be useful as well.

Neil: are fractions actually a problem?

Dani: sometimes the fraction bar need to be moved up or down, and it needs to be computed depending on the font size.

Arno: we would probably need to have the concept of “math axis” similar to the “baseline” that exist today

Dani: flex box allows vertical alignments, and that helps for fractions and big operators

Neil: sounds like flex box is solving the problem for big operators, then?

Dani: yes, partially. But you need to move the operator to align with the math axis.

John: sounds like we need to work on a list of those cases

Arno: we also need to think of integrals that require limits to be displayed offset from the symbol

John: is there that list somewhere?

Neil: I thought Peter had something, but that may have been a long time ago…

Arno: I’d suggest creating a Google Docs that we could all collaborate on, with the goal of having something ready in time for TPAC.

Dani: I will create the document and share it with the group so we can start collaborating on these ideas.



## Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Daniel Marques (dani@wiris.com) • July 21, 2017 • Permalink

Hi Arno and others!

Thanks for the minutes.

I created the document
and I've given access to some of you. Anyone that wants a write access can
request it to me and I will give it.

Regards,

Dani

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 7:20 PM, Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org> wrote:

>
> Minutes from the meeting today. Any transcription errors are my own.
>
> Display of math in HTML 5
>
>
> Peter want to discuss MathML, but not feeling well today and he sends his
> apologies.
>
>
> Neil Soiffer: Peter has said that MathML is inadequate on the web. What
> are its particular limitations/problems?
>
>
> Volker Sorge: MathML is a fine presentation language. But it’s not
> implemented, and probably won’t be fully implemented. It’s not modern
> enough. It was trying to do things ten years ago that are now available in
> CSS/HTML. What is really *necessary* to render Math that is not available
> in HTML/CSS today? Rather than keep asking for an implementation of MathML
> that is not happening.
>
>
> Neil: Understood, but custom elements, shadow DOM may be a way to leave
> the DOM clean and use CSS for rendering. And it’s been closer to twenty
> years, not ten! So, are there things very problematic in MathML that would
> never make it in CSS? For example, I’ve always been opposed to <mfence>,
> <mstyle>, but what else?
>
>
> <someone>: <mfence>: we all hate it!
>
>
> Neil: Always regretted <mfence>, I’d be happy to see it go. What else are
> we talking about? Maybe you don’t believe in Shadow DOM or custom elements,
> but if they do happen, it would leave the DOM nice and clean.
>
>
> Volker: do you expect browsers to implement MathML or web apps to make use
> of it. Should MathML not be adapted to be more realistic to what browsers
> would actually implement?
>
>
> Neil: The problem with MathJax, etc… is that you’re polluting the DOM and
> have spans, etc… that don’t represent the content, but just the
> presentation. Shadow DOM could help with that. I’d like to see browser
> implementation of MathML, but the major thing is to have a clean DOM
> instead of a tag soup. I’d like to see MathML implemented with a shadow
> DOM, and maybe it would encourage browser vendors to adopt it.
>
>
> Volker: One of my main issues with MathML is that presentation MathML has
> some semantic in it, which can be confusing and abused for other things. Is
> it really necessary to have a special <mfrac> or special square root, etc..
> rather than something more general to “enclose” elements.
>
>
> Stretching characters is a particular problem to cover.
>
>
> Neil: <menclose> has a square root option, but you’d rather see it
> generalized? Not sure how we would deal with n-th root, but there might be
> a way.
>
>
> Volker: yeah, and same thing for fractions. In particular for
> accessibility, you’d want to control the order: just have a bar and specify
> where the numer/denom is in the DOM.
>
>
> Neil: asian languages read fractions the other way around, but they’re
> displayed the same way.
>
>
> Volker: you’d want to draw them the same way, but want to traverse them
> differently in the DOM.
>
>
> Neil: not sure I see the need for that. If a screen reader wants to read
> in a certain way, they can determine what is the right order
>
>
> Arno: but wouldn’t it be difficult without the semantic information for
> the screen reader to infer the correct order?
>
>
> Volker: I don’t always want to represent a fraction, so I want to be able
> to give it explicit order, kinda like a ‘z-index’, but for reading order.
> For example, in logic, when you want to talk about conclusions before
> premises, the author may want to specify the correct order. There should be
> a better separation between presentation and semantics.
>
>
> Dani: the assistive technology can read the page, can access the DOM, but
> the assistive technology shouldn’t have to infer the semantic
>
>
> Volker: yes. With web apps for example, you can implement a pull down menu
> for example, however you want. The ARIA attributes will give screen readers
> the right info to interpret it correctly.
>
>
> etc… but they don’t know about fractions, etc..
>
>
> Volker: true, but couldn’t you put some descriptions for the things they
> don’t know.
>
>
> Neil: they would need to know about some primitives: fractions,
> deductions, etc…
>
>
> Volker: what would they need to know about semantics? Couldn’t they just
> have some info about order, and what to say?
>
>
> Neil: but that’s language dependent. The order and how to say it in other
> languages. In fact, with math speech, there isn’t a single way to say
> something. Why force it?
>
>
> Volker: if I’m in an English web page, I don’t expect the screen reader to
> tell it to me in German. If there’s English math on it, it should read it
> in English, not try to localize it in German.
>
>
> Neil: Once it’s been generated, the language is known, I agree, but there
> are still multiple way to speak math notations. Steve Noble went to a
> school, but a teacher said “that’s not how I say parenthesis”. And another
> teacher in the same school was saying the same thing completely differently
> (“open paren” vs. “left paren”, etc…)
>
>
> Volker: shouldn’t the author be in control of that?
>
>
> Neil: the teacher might be reading Wikipedia or Kahn academy, something
> they didn’t author. For example, screen readers give control over how much
> punctuations are said.
>
>
> Steve Noble: We found that students who are visually impaired needed the
> who are dyslexic for example would stumble with that same additional
> language. Users that use a Braille Nemeth reader need a different rendering
> that Braille users using a different system.
>
>
> Volker: I agree there’s still a lot of work to do on the screen reader
> side, but I still don’t see why we need MathML for that. Unfortunately, I
> do have the leave the call now.
>
>
> Steve: I see three pillars:
>
> (1) There are problems with the MathML standard and they should be fixed.
>
> (2) browsers and other tools need to implement MathML.
>
> (3) techniques we use in the meantime, like MathJAX, while the other
> pillars get resolved on their own timeline
>
>
> Volker: I don’t feel like the second pillar will ever happen, and we
> should step back and determine more realistic goals in terms of changes to
> CSS/HTML, like stretchy characters.
>
>
> Dani: MathML is also important from the authoring point of view: if you
> create a tool to create a formula you need an interoperable way to exchange
>
>
> Arno: what would be the benefit of MathML over LaTeX for interchange?
>
>
> Neil: the problem with LaTeX is that it’s a programming language, with no
> fixed syntax, lots of extensions. Too powerful to be used for exchange
> unless you have a full TeX engine. Also MathML is easy to parse, since it’s
> XML, easy to get a tree.
>
>
> Arno: have there been discussions of a JSON version of MathML that would
> be even easier to parse?
>
>
> Neil: not aware of it, but there are mapping between XML and JSON, so it’s
> certainly possible.
>
>
> Dani: didn’t think a lot about what I would change in MathML, but
> interoperability between browsers could be better. Simple things like
> fractions, stretchy characters is where the difficulties are today, so
> changing MathML would not be a priority for me.
>
>
> Neil: Another thing that would be useful could be font info.
>
>
> Arno: Agreed. To do a layout with CSS/HTML you sometimes have to get
> measurements of elements, and it’s not always easy to do. You have to use
> some workarounds, like creating elements and temporarily inserting them as
> invisible elements in the page in order to get their bounding rectangles.
> Would be much better to have an API to measure offscreen elements. It would
> also be very useful to have access to information such as the math axis and
> other math typesetting specific data which are available in some “math”
> fonts such as Cambria Math (see https://www.microsoft.com/
> typography/otspec/math.htm).
>
>
> Dani: but some of that info is not proportional to the font size. For
> example, a 2pt value at 16pt may need to be 5pt at 32pt.
>
>
> Arno: That’s right, and that’s the information that is included in those
> ‘math’ tables that are embedded in ‘math’ fonts, but that information is
> not accessible from CSS or Javascript. Same thing if the concept of “math
> axis” similar to the concept of “baseline” was understood by CSS. It would
> make math layout much easier. That would be really nice to have. Perhaps an
> area of further discussion and collaboration with the CSS WG and others?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


## RE: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Daniel Marques (dani@wiris.com) • July 21, 2017 • Permalink

Hi Tzviya,

Thanks for the information regarding the submissions.

Just wondering how much in advance… Regarding polyfills, did you mean
something like
https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/fraction1.html (this
is work in progress) ?

Regards,

Dani

*From:* Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken [mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com]
*Sent:* jueves, 20 de julio de 2017 22:37
*To:* Jean Kaplansky; Arno Gourdol
*Cc:* Volker Sorge; Daniel Marques; mathonweb; Peter Krautzberger
*Subject:* RE: Reminder: Meeting today

Hi All,

Apologies for not being attend. If you have proposals for the CSS WG, you
should get them to the group well in advance of TPAC. They usually have a
really packed schedule. The way CSS tends to work these days is with
submissions of polyfills, not just ideas.

Tzviya

*Tzviya Siegman*

Wiley

201-748-6884

tsiegman@wiley.com

*Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:18 PM
*To:* Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org>
*Cc:* Volker Sorge <volker.sorge@gmail.com>; Daniel Marques <dani@wiris.com>;
mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>; Peter Krautzberger <
peter@krautzource.com>
*Subject:* Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Hi, Everyone -

K-12 publishing in the Western Hemisphere will be eternally grateful if you
guys can take up the elementary math use cases with the CSS group too. Long
division and Stacked Equations especially.

I'll keep an eye out for any google doc you guys may start to make sure
that these use cases get on the list.

Thanks for considering.

Best,

*Jean Kaplansky*
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068
@jeankaplansky

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org> wrote:

Minutes from 20 JULY 2017 Math On Web telcon

Minute taker: Arno.

Dani: would like to discuss with CSS WG about possibility to incorporate
new CSS features that would suit out needs for mathematics.

At TPAC, we have the possibility to discuss with CSS WG what we would need
to display mathematics without JS.

First we would need the scope of equations we want to support: fractions,
matrix, big operators, supsub…?

Second, explain why CSS as it is is not enough to do represent those
equations

Third, provide some hint/prototypes of what the solution could look like,
perhaps with a Javascript implementation.

We need to do some planing to prepare for this, vacations are coming up for
everyone.

Neil: I’m away in August.

Neil: For large operators, would that include stretchy parens?

Dani: yes, probably.

Neil: if we can suggest to the CSS WG some non-math use cases, that will
help motivate them

Dani: which math would we want to do? For example, fractions?

Neil: Wouldn’t Peter have a list like that? Has he approached the CSS WG

Dani: not that I’m aware of. Peter has had some unofficial conversations,
perhaps.

Neil/John: square roots would be useful as well.

Neil: are fractions actually a problem?

Dani: sometimes the fraction bar need to be moved up or down, and it needs
to be computed depending on the font size.

Arno: we would probably need to have the concept of “math axis” similar to
the “baseline” that exist today

Dani: flex box allows vertical alignments, and that helps for fractions and
big operators

Neil: sounds like flex box is solving the problem for big operators, then?

Dani: yes, partially. But you need to move the operator to align with the
math axis.

John: sounds like we need to work on a list of those cases

Arno: we also need to think of integrals that require limits to be
displayed offset from the symbol

John: is there that list somewhere?

Neil: I thought Peter had something, but that may have been a long time ago…

Arno: I’d suggest creating a Google Docs that we could all collaborate on,
with the goal of having something ready in time for TPAC.

Dani: I will create the document and share it with the group so we can
start collaborating on these ideas.


## RE: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken (tsiegman@wiley.com) • July 20, 2017 • Permalink

Hi All,

Apologies for not being attend. If you have proposals for the CSS WG, you should get them to the group well in advance of TPAC. They usually have a really packed schedule. The way CSS tends to work these days is with submissions of polyfills, not just ideas.

Tzviya

Tzviya Siegman
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:18 PM
To: Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org>
Cc: Volker Sorge <volker.sorge@gmail.com>; Daniel Marques <dani@wiris.com>; mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>; Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>
Subject: Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Hi, Everyone -

K-12 publishing in the Western Hemisphere will be eternally grateful if you guys can take up the elementary math use cases with the CSS group too. Long division and Stacked Equations especially.

I'll keep an eye out for any google doc you guys may start to make sure that these use cases get on the list.

Thanks for considering.

Best,

Jean Kaplansky
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068
@jeankaplansky

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org<mailto:arno@arno.org>> wrote:

Minutes from 20 JULY 2017 Math On Web telcon
Minute taker: Arno.

Dani: would like to discuss with CSS WG about possibility to incorporate new CSS features that would suit out needs for mathematics.

At TPAC, we have the possibility to discuss with CSS WG what we would need to display mathematics without JS.

First we would need the scope of equations we want to support: fractions, matrix, big operators, supsub…?

Second, explain why CSS as it is is not enough to do represent those equations

Third, provide some hint/prototypes of what the solution could look like, perhaps with a Javascript implementation.

We need to do some planing to prepare for this, vacations are coming up for everyone.

Neil: I’m away in August.

Neil: For large operators, would that include stretchy parens?

Dani: yes, probably.

Neil: if we can suggest to the CSS WG some non-math use cases, that will help motivate them

Dani: which math would we want to do? For example, fractions?

Neil: Wouldn’t Peter have a list like that? Has he approached the CSS WG already with some proposals?

Dani: not that I’m aware of. Peter has had some unofficial conversations, perhaps.

Neil/John: square roots would be useful as well.

Neil: are fractions actually a problem?

Dani: sometimes the fraction bar need to be moved up or down, and it needs to be computed depending on the font size.

Arno: we would probably need to have the concept of “math axis” similar to the “baseline” that exist today

Dani: flex box allows vertical alignments, and that helps for fractions and big operators

Neil: sounds like flex box is solving the problem for big operators, then?

Dani: yes, partially. But you need to move the operator to align with the math axis.

John: sounds like we need to work on a list of those cases

Arno: we also need to think of integrals that require limits to be displayed offset from the symbol

John: is there that list somewhere?

Neil: I thought Peter had something, but that may have been a long time ago…

Arno: I’d suggest creating a Google Docs that we could all collaborate on, with the goal of having something ready in time for TPAC.

Dani: I will create the document and share it with the group so we can start collaborating on these ideas.



## Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Jean Kaplansky (jeankap@earthlink.net) • July 20, 2017 • Permalink

Hi, Everyone -

K-12 publishing in the Western Hemisphere will be eternally grateful if you
guys can take up the elementary math use cases with the CSS group too. Long
division and Stacked Equations especially.

I'll keep an eye out for any google doc you guys may start to make sure
that these use cases get on the list.

Thanks for considering.

Best,

*Jean Kaplansky*
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Arno Gourdol <arno@arno.org> wrote:

>
> Minutes from 20 JULY 2017 Math On Web telcon
> Minute taker: Arno.
>
> Dani: would like to discuss with CSS WG about possibility to incorporate
> new CSS features that would suit out needs for mathematics.
>
>
> At TPAC, we have the possibility to discuss with CSS WG what we would need
> to display mathematics without JS.
>
>
> First we would need the scope of equations we want to support: fractions,
> matrix, big operators, supsub…?
>
>
> Second, explain why CSS as it is is not enough to do represent those
> equations
>
>
> Third, provide some hint/prototypes of what the solution could look like,
> perhaps with a Javascript implementation.
>
>
> We need to do some planing to prepare for this, vacations are coming up
> for everyone.
>
>
> Neil: I’m away in August.
>
>
> Neil: For large operators, would that include stretchy parens?
>
>
> Dani: yes, probably.
>
>
> Neil: if we can suggest to the CSS WG some non-math use cases, that will
> help motivate them
>
>
> Dani: which math would we want to do? For example, fractions?
>
>
> Neil: Wouldn’t Peter have a list like that? Has he approached the CSS WG
>
>
> Dani: not that I’m aware of. Peter has had some unofficial conversations,
> perhaps.
>
>
> Neil/John: square roots would be useful as well.
>
>
> Neil: are fractions actually a problem?
>
>
> Dani: sometimes the fraction bar need to be moved up or down, and it needs
> to be computed depending on the font size.
>
>
> Arno: we would probably need to have the concept of “math axis” similar to
> the “baseline” that exist today
>
>
> Dani: flex box allows vertical alignments, and that helps for fractions
> and big operators
>
>
> Neil: sounds like flex box is solving the problem for big operators, then?
>
>
> Dani: yes, partially. But you need to move the operator to align with the
> math axis.
>
>
> John: sounds like we need to work on a list of those cases
>
>
> Arno: we also need to think of integrals that require limits to be
> displayed offset from the symbol
>
>
> John: is there that list somewhere?
>
>
> Neil: I thought Peter had something, but that may have been a long time
> ago…
>
>
> Arno: I’d suggest creating a Google Docs that we could all collaborate on,
> with the goal of having something ready in time for TPAC.
>
>
> Dani: I will create the document and share it with the group so we can
> start collaborating on these ideas.
>


## Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Arno Gourdol (arno@arno.org) • July 20, 2017 • Permalink

Minutes from 20 JULY 2017 Math On Web telcon
Minute taker: Arno.

Dani: would like to discuss with CSS WG about possibility to incorporate
new CSS features that would suit out needs for mathematics.

At TPAC, we have the possibility to discuss with CSS WG what we would need
to display mathematics without JS.

First we would need the scope of equations we want to support: fractions,
matrix, big operators, supsub…?

Second, explain why CSS as it is is not enough to do represent those
equations

Third, provide some hint/prototypes of what the solution could look like,
perhaps with a Javascript implementation.

We need to do some planing to prepare for this, vacations are coming up for
everyone.

Neil: I’m away in August.

Neil: For large operators, would that include stretchy parens?

Dani: yes, probably.

Neil: if we can suggest to the CSS WG some non-math use cases, that will
help motivate them

Dani: which math would we want to do? For example, fractions?

Neil: Wouldn’t Peter have a list like that? Has he approached the CSS WG

Dani: not that I’m aware of. Peter has had some unofficial conversations,
perhaps.

Neil/John: square roots would be useful as well.

Neil: are fractions actually a problem?

Dani: sometimes the fraction bar need to be moved up or down, and it needs
to be computed depending on the font size.

Arno: we would probably need to have the concept of “math axis” similar to
the “baseline” that exist today

Dani: flex box allows vertical alignments, and that helps for fractions and
big operators

Neil: sounds like flex box is solving the problem for big operators, then?

Dani: yes, partially. But you need to move the operator to align with the
math axis.

John: sounds like we need to work on a list of those cases

Arno: we also need to think of integrals that require limits to be
displayed offset from the symbol

John: is there that list somewhere?

Neil: I thought Peter had something, but that may have been a long time ago…

Arno: I’d suggest creating a Google Docs that we could all collaborate on,
with the goal of having something ready in time for TPAC.

Dani: I will create the document and share it with the group so we can
start collaborating on these ideas.


## Regrets Publishing A11Y meeting scheduled Re: Reminder: Meeting today EOM

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Charles LaPierre (charlesl@benetech.org) • July 20, 2017 • Permalink


Thanks
EOM

Charles LaPierre
Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>
Skype: charles_lapierre
Phone: 650-600-3301

On Jul 20, 2017, at 7:47 AM, Daniel Marques <dani@wiris.com<mailto:dani@wiris.com>> wrote:

HI everybody,

I guess we have a meeting today!

I would like to discuss about the enhancements to CSS during TPAC 2017.

Dani

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com<mailto:peter@krautzource.com>> wrote:
Hi everyone,

We are scheduled to meet today, July 6, 12pm Eastern time. (I.e. in about 1 hour.)

The meeting topic is MathML.

Best,
Peter.


## Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Volker Sorge (volker.sorge@gmail.com) • July 20, 2017 • Permalink

Apologies. I'm at a meeting in Edinburgh today.
Volker

On 20 Jul 2017 3:48 pm, "Daniel Marques" <dani@wiris.com> wrote:

> HI everybody,
>
> I guess we have a meeting today!
>
> I would like to discuss about the enhancements to CSS during TPAC 2017.
>
> Dani
>
> On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> We are scheduled to meet today, July 6, 12pm Eastern time. (I.e. in about
>> 1 hour.)
>>
>> The meeting topic is MathML.
>>
>> Best,
>> Peter.
>>
>
>


## Re: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Daniel Marques (dani@wiris.com) • July 20, 2017 • Permalink

HI everybody,

I guess we have a meeting today!

I would like to discuss about the enhancements to CSS during TPAC 2017.

Dani

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> We are scheduled to meet today, July 6, 12pm Eastern time. (I.e. in about
> 1 hour.)
>
> The meeting topic is MathML.
>
> Best,
> Peter.
>


## RE: Reminder: Meeting today

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Daniel Marques (dani@wiris.com) • July 11, 2017 • Permalink

Hi Liam,

Sorry for my delayed answer but I'm in the middle of closing many projects.

It is great that some people still think that with CSS should be possible to
do mathematics easier. It is probably very improbable to be able to do all
the MathML specification. But, at least, simple formulas with fractions,
roots and matrices, among others, should be achievable.

You say
> If this CG were to come up with a list of the most urgent things together
> with some tests (and patches for browsers?) I can see something happening.
That's for sure a starting point and makes sense working in this direction.
We can elaborate it more during the following group meetings.

I appreciate very much your suggestion.

Daniel Marques

-----Original Message-----
From: Liam R. E. Quin [mailto:liam@w3.org]
Sent: jueves, 6 de julio de 2017 20:45
To: Arno Gourdol; Daniel Marques
Cc: Peter Krautzberger; mathonweb
Subject: Re: Reminder: Meeting today

On Thu, 2017-07-06 at 10:20 -0700, Arno Gourdol wrote:
> Minutes from the meeting today. Any transcription errors are my own.
>
> Display of math in HTML 5

It took more than a decade for SVG to get supported natively in Web
browsers, so "never" isn't right. The support is neither perfect nor
complete (e.g. browser vendors don't seem to like SMIL animation, possibly
because it reminds them of XML) but it's usable.

If this CG were to come up with a list of the most urgent things together
with some tests (and patches for browsers?) I can see something happening.

Built-up fences, fractions, stretching characters (e.g. via font
transformation matrix), aligning separate blocks (displayed equations) on
the = sign even if there isn't one, all also have applications outside
mathematics, so having CSS able to do them would make sense to me.

[...]

> Would be much better to have an API to measure offscreen elements.

To some extent you can do this today, but you can't get at font metrics, and
in particular the math table. There are some privacy issues, but if it was

A set of proposals for CSS might be something that the CSS WG could
conceivably consider at TPAC.

Liam


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