Author: Khaled Hosny
(khaledhosny@eglug.org)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 09:04:25PM +0200, Frédéric WANG wrote:
> Le 26/07/2014 19:18, Will Robertson a écrit :
> >I *think* I've seen an example of extremely old French maths that was set
> >in osf, but I could be wrong... if I remember I'll try investigate
> >(perhaps remind me if you're particularly interested.) Will
> Well, I trust you. But from my experiments, all the OpenType families that
> have both text and math fonts only have old style number in the text fonts.
> If these are new families start providing old style numbers for the math
> font too, then it will be easy to update the CSS rules in my MathFonts
> repository to take them into account.
The problem with old style number in math is that it might cause
something like, say, old style 4 or 9 to be mistaken with a subscript
one.
Regards,
Khaled
Author: Frédéric WANG
(fred.wang@free.fr)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
Le 26/07/2014 19:18, Will Robertson a écrit :
> I *think* I've seen an example of extremely old French maths that was
> set in osf, but I could be wrong... if I remember I'll try investigate
> (perhaps remind me if you're particularly interested.) Will
Well, I trust you. But from my experiments, all the OpenType families
that have both text and math fonts only have old style number in the
text fonts. If these are new families start providing old style numbers
for the math font too, then it will be easy to update the CSS rules in
my MathFonts repository to take them into account.

Frédéric Wang
mathsinformatiquejeux.com/blog/frederic
Author: Will Robertson
(wspr81@gmail.com)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
(From phone)
> On 26 Jul 2014, at 4:23 am, Frédéric WANG <fred.wang@free.fr> wrote:
>
> Khaled Hosny pointed out that old style numbers are available for the text font and don't really make sense for the math font.
I *think* I've seen an example of extremely old French maths that was set in osf, but I could be wrong... if I remember I'll try investigate (perhaps remind me if you're particularly interested.)
Will
Author: Frédéric WANG
(fred.wang@free.fr)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
Le 25/07/2014 15:35, Frédéric WANG a écrit :
>  Asana Math and XITS have calligraphic variants.
>  Asana Math, Neo Euler and XITS have old style numbers.
>  Other fonts do not seem to have such variants (or they are
> proprietary and I can test them).
>
Khaled Hosny pointed out that old style numbers are available for the
text font and don't really make sense for the math font. So I updated my
GitHub page to reflect that. Now, as I see, all the free fonts have old
style numbers, but only Asana Math and XITS Math have calligraphic scripts.

Frédéric Wang
mathsinformatiquejeux.com/blog/frederic
Author: Frédéric WANG
(fred.wang@free.fr)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
Dear all,
I've updated my repository of OpenType math WOFF fonts to add some CSS
rules for oldstyle numbers and calligraphic letters:
http://fredwang.github.io/MathFonts/
So the current status from my testing is
 Asana Math and XITS have calligraphic variants.
 Asana Math, Neo Euler and XITS have old style numbers.
 Other fonts do not seem to have such variants (or they are proprietary
and I can test them).
I listed all the possible syntaxes, either with
fontvariantnumeric/fontvariantalternates not yet enabled/implemented
in browsers or fontfeaturesettings with/without browserspecific prefix.

Frédéric Wang
mathsinformatiquejeux.com/blog/frederic
Channel: Ask.com
News Search for "mathml"
The Register  Found Jul. 24,
2014
... the advisory: “Mozilla community member James Kitchener
reported a crash in DirectWrite when rendering MathML content with
specific fonts...


Author: Frédéric WANG
(fred.wang@free.fr)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
Le 22/07/2014 08:51, William F Hammond a écrit :
> Why should it be necessary to remove support for old fonts just
> because new things will be supported?  Bill
I supposed you understood that it is not "just because new things will
be supported" ;)
First the Unicodeonly constructions in arbitrary fonts will still be
supported, what we want to remove is the old font tables for Asana Math,
"STIX General" and MathJax. Asana Math and the "STIX Word" set have an
OpenType MATH table so can be used with the new code. Additionally,
Latin Modern Math is a "modernized implementation of the Computer Modern
fonts" (with reshaping and other stuff that are out of my area of
expertise, see the papers on the GUST website for details) and so can
now replace the "MathJax TeX" fonts (which is just generated via an
autotracer, targeted to MathJax's needs and was a temporary solution to
replace the old BaKoMa TeX support). So first, nobody should need these
old fonts in the long term since you have equivalent OpenType MATH
version... why do you want that??
The technical reason why we want to remove support for these old fonts
is that they need special handlings which make the stretchy operator
code "complicated" (to use an euphemism). Since we want to optimize it
in the future, we will need to cleanup the code before refactoring it.
Moving to OpenType MATH has actually been the plan for 7 years, but that
finally could only be realized recently, thanks to the Ulule crowdfunding...
Moreover, from the user's point of view, you will get a much more
consistent way to use the various OpenType MATH fonts in WebKit/Gecko.
Basically, you now have only one single Math font to deal with and only
need to set the fontfamily on the <math> (and perhaps the companion
fonts for the text). All the mathvariant selection, correction of prime
size, math layout parameters, stretchy op constructions etc are stored
in the font and Gecko&WebKit only need to read what has been specified
by the font authors. One can even create his own math fonts with
fontforge and they will be immediately supported by Gecko&WebKit without
having to hardcode new data. For example, if some Mathematica people
read that, they could just make an OpenType MATH version of their fonts
and restore the original 15years old support in Gecko :)

Frédéric Wang
mathsinformatiquejeux.com/blog/frederic
Channel: Ask.com
News Search for "mathml"
Security Tracker  Found Jul. 22,
2014
A remote user can trigger a useafterfree in DirectWrite when
rendering MathML content with specific fonts to execute arbitrary
code [CVE...


Author: William F Hammond
(hammond@csc.albany.edu)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
Frédéric WANG <fred.wang@free.fr> writes:
> ... The old
> math fonts (e.g. MathJax TeX, STIX General) are now
> deprecated in favor of the modern OpenType math fonts
> (e.g. Latin Modern Math, XITS Math, Cambria Math). There are
> still some known bugs/limitations in Gecko, math fonts and
> systems so that might take some time before the migration
> can be fully done. However, note that we plan to remove
> support for the old fonts in a near future, so please
> upgrade your setup as soon as possible and report any issues
> you find. ...
Why should it be necessary to remove support for old
fonts just because new things will be supported?
 Bill
Author: George Weilenmann
(george.weilenmann@insightsoftware.com)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
The only time I have seen them in Context is in some mid 1800’s treatises for the incomplete infinity and in a few documents concerning uncountable infinity from the early 1900’s, I have not seen their usage in any mathematical texts after the 1950’s that I can recall. It would seem their usage fell out of favor. Instead Aleph and Beth Cardinal Numbers, א U+05D0 ב U+05D1 replaced Uncountable Infinities, and (INCOMPLETE INFINITY) U+29DC ⧜ or (PROPORTIONAL TO) U+221D ∝ or (INFINITY NEGATED WITH VERTICAL BAR) U+29DE for incomplete infinity.
George Weilenmann
IT Help Desk  CRM Customization  Portal Developer
[Description: cid:82D8368C56BA48C5ADFE8F6F70761408] Office +1 303.800.5027 Mobile +1 720.940.0974
5613 DTC Parkway, Suite 570, Greenwood Village, CO 80111
[Fans of InsightSoftware.com]<http://www.insightsoftware.com/fans/?utm_source=Employees&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Fans&utm_campaign=Signature>
From: Shervin Afshar [mailto:shervinafshar@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:49 PM
To: George Weilenmann; wwwmath@w3.org
Subject: Re: Tie over infinity
Thank you for the information. Do you of any publications that I can see the symbol in context?
↪ Shervin
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 7:02 PM, George Weilenmann <george.weilenmann@insightsoftware.com<mailto:george.weilenmann@insightsoftware.com>> wrote:
Tie over infinity is a variant of the incomplete Infinity, and rarely used to represent big infinity (uncountable infinity)
George Weilenmann
IT Help Desk  CRM Customization  Portal Developer
Office +1 303.800.5027<tel:%2B1%20303.800.5027> Mobile +1 720.940.0974<tel:%2B1%20720.940.0974>
5613 DTC Parkway, Suite 570, Greenwood Village, CO 80111
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From: Shervin Afshar [mailto:shervinafshar@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2014 6:26 PM
To: Murray Sargent
Cc: wwwmath@w3.org; Barbara Beeton
Subject: Re: Tie over infinity<http://www.insightsoftware.com/fans/?utm_source=Employees&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Fans&utm_campaign=Signature>
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I asked around and looked it up in some source (including Cajori), but to no avail. Any clues about where else to look? Thanks.<http://www.insightsoftware.com/fans/?utm_source=Employees&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Fans&utm_campaign=Signature>
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On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Murray Sargent <murrays@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote:<http://www.insightsoftware.com/fans/?utm_source=Employees&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Fans&utm_campaign=Signature>
Anyone know how "tie over infinity" ⧝ (29DD) is used in mathematics?
Thanks,
Murray<http://www.insightsoftware.com/fans/?utm_source=Employees&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Fans&utm_campaign=Signature>
<http://www.insightsoftware.com/fans/?utm_source=Employees&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Fans&utm_campaign=Signature>
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Author: Shervin Afshar
(shervinafshar@gmail.com)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
Thank you for the background info, but none of these documents (including
proposals to UTC; [1], [2]) have any background about this single symbol
(which doesn't surprise me since it was proposed in a larger repertoire).
So I don't think digging in the ISO archives would make us wiser about the
background and usage.
[1]: http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2000/00002math.pdf
[2]: http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2000/00119math.pdf
↪Shervin
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:12 AM, <bnb@ams.org> wrote:
> I asked around and looked it up in some source (including Cajori), but
> to
> no avail. Any clues about where else to look? Thanks.
>
> thanks for checking.
>
> Shervin
>
> my records show that it was included in
> the stix requests from the isotech entity
> set associated with sgml support facilties,
> as listed in
>
> draft technical report ISO/IEC DTR 9573131990(E)
> ISO/IEC JTC 1
> Information technology  SGML support facilities 
> Techniques for using SGML 
> Part 13
> Public entity sets for mathematics and science
>
> which was used as the starting set for the
> stix collection.
>
> i'm not sure what the fate of this tech
> report might be; i believe it was rearranged,
> but whether it was ever voted into final
> status, i don't know. what i *do* know,
> though, is that it was adopted into the
> w3c entity definitions for characters; see
>
> XML Entity Definitions for Characters (2nd Edition)
> W3C Recommendation 10 April 2014
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlentitynames/
>
> and in particular
>
> ISOTECH
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlentitynames/isotech.html
>
> an update is in the works:
>
> XML Entity Definitions for Characters (3rd Edition)
> W3C Working Draft 16 April 2014
> http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/Overview.html
>
> with no change in the isotech complement.
>
> i correspond fairly regularly with both
> the editors of this recommendation (both
> of them are longtime friends), so could
> ask them if they know anything more. but
> this has been asked before, so i'm sure
> they don't.
>
> i obtained the initial copy of 957313
> on paper, as a representative of ams and
> ansi to what was then isoiec jtc1/sc18/wg8,
> the working group responsible for sgml.
> anders berglund, at the time employed in
> the iso headquarters in geneva, was also
> a member of that wg, and when the stix
> project was established, he provided me
> with electronic copies of relevant
> material, including the entity sets in
> 8879 (sgml) and 957313. however, i'm
> pretty sure he didn't/doesn't know the
> source of the isotech material. (i think
> i asked at the time, and remember being
> told they were odds and ends from no
> single source.)
>
> i don't know anyone currently in a
> position to investigate old (very old!)
> records at iso, but i'm still in contact
> with a few people who might be able to
> tell me how to find someone, if it is
> worth the effort. let me know, please.
>  bb
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Murray Sargent <
> murrays@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > Anyone know how "tie over infinity" ? (29DD) is used in mathematics?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Murray
>
Author: Shervin Afshar
(shervinafshar@gmail.com)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
Thank you for the information. Do you of any publications that I can see
the symbol in context?
↪ Shervin
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 7:02 PM, George Weilenmann <
george.weilenmann@insightsoftware.com> wrote:
> Tie over infinity is a variant of the incomplete Infinity, and rarely
> used to represent big infinity (uncountable infinity)
>
>
>
> *George Weilenmann*
>
> IT Help Desk  CRM Customization  Portal Developer
>
> *[image: Description: cid:82D8368C56BA48C5ADFE8F6F70761408] *
> *Office +1 303.800.5027 <%2B1%20303.800.5027> Mobile +1 720.940.0974
> <%2B1%20720.940.0974> *5613 DTC Parkway, Suite 570, Greenwood Village, CO
> 80111
>
>
>
> [image: Fans of InsightSoftware.com]
> <http://www.insightsoftware.com/fans/?utm_source=Employees&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=Fans&utm_campaign=Signature>
>
>
>
> *From:* Shervin Afshar [mailto:shervinafshar@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 17, 2014 6:26 PM
> *To:* Murray Sargent
> *Cc:* wwwmath@w3.org; Barbara Beeton
> *Subject:* Re: Tie over infinity
>
>
>
>
>
> I asked around and looked it up in some source (including Cajori), but to
> no avail. Any clues about where else to look? Thanks.
>
>
>
> Shervin
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Murray Sargent <
> murrays@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> Anyone know how "tie over infinity" ⧝ (29DD) is used in mathematics?
>
> Thanks,
> Murray
>
>
>
> Disclaimer: This message contains confidential information and is intended
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Author: Frédéric WANG
(fred.wang@free.fr)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
(apologies for possible multiple copies ; feel free to forward this message)
Dear all,
Starting with Gecko 31 (to be released the week of July 22), the
recommended fonts for the MathML rendering are mathematical fonts with
an OpenType MATH table [1]. The old math fonts (e.g. MathJax TeX, STIX
General) are now deprecated in favor of the modern OpenType math fonts
(e.g. Latin Modern Math, XITS Math, Cambria Math). There are still some
known bugs/limitations in Gecko, math fonts and systems so that might
take some time before the migration can be fully done. However, note
that we plan to remove support for the old fonts in a near future, so
please upgrade your setup as soon as possible and report any issues you
find. In particular:
* For Web users: If you installed MathML fonts in the past, please
consider cleaning up your previous installation. Read [2] for the latest
documentation of the recommended math fonts. On desktop, if you use
Windows >= 7 or if you have a TeX distribution installed, it's now
really likely that you don't need to install additional math fonts. On
mobile devices, the MathML fonts addon [3] is still the only option for
now but we have workinprogress patches for Android and FirefoxOS.
Currently, there is not any native feature to configure your preferred
math fonts, but Firefox users can try the MathMLfontsettings addon [4].
* For Web authors: If you use Web font versions of deprecated math fonts
(e.g. MathJax TeX or STIX General), perhaps with the help of the
::mozmathstretchy pseudoelement, you should update your pages. The
rule is now very simple: just apply the desired fontfamily on the
<math> elements. You might also provide WOFF fallback or additional
fontfamily for the text. Download [5] to get WOFF fonts together with
CSS stylesheets to use on your Website.
* For software maintainers: Please ensure that an OpenType MATH font is
available on your system or that the appropriate dependencies for
Geckobased programs are set. You might also want to remove obsolete
fonts or at least drop the dependencies for Geckobased programs.
* For font designers: You are invited to create your own math fonts and
test them with Gecko. Note that fontforge has menus and a Python
interface to do that [6] [7]. Existing math fonts have issues with
ascent/descent, please be sure that the OS/2 metrics are consistent, so
that they work the same in all platforms/browsers.
Related news:
* The STIX fonts (STIXWord set) have an OpenType MATH table, but there
are known to have many bugs. The STIX Consortium announced version 2.0.0
for early 2015 but for now, it is recommended to use the XITS fork
instead [8].
* Partial support for the OpenType MATH table is also available in
WebKit Nightly and will improve the rendering of MathML operators [9].
Requests to make OpenType MATH font installed by default on iOS & Mac
systems have been submitted to Apple.
[1] Section 6.3.6,
http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/standards/mpeg4/openfontformat/textisoieccd14496223rdedition
[2] https://developer.mozilla.org/enUS/docs/Mozilla/MathML_Project/Fonts
[3] https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/mathmlfonts/
[4] https://addons.mozilla.org/enUS/firefox/addon/mathmlfontsettings/
[5] https://github.com/fredwang/MathFonts/archive/ghpages.zip
[6] http://www.fontforge.org/math.html
[7] http://www.fontforge.org/python.html
[8] http://www.stixfonts.org/
[9] https://bug133569attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=233418

Frédéric Wang
mathsinformatiquejeux.com/blog/frederic
Author: Frédéric WANG
(fred.wang@free.fr)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
Dear all,
Firefox 31 will be released in a couple of days, please find some
release notes below. As usual, you can check
https://wiki.mozilla.org/MathML:Home_Page#Last_bugs_fixed and
https://developer.mozilla.org/enUS/Firefox/Releases/31#MathML for details.
* Gecko 31:
 Remove obsolete/nonstandard features: font.mathfontfamily*
preferences, ::mozmathstretchy pseudoelement, STIX 1.0 beta support.
 The scale correction is no longer always applied to stretchy
operators, to follow the TeX / Open Type MATH behavior.
 Fix some bugs with dotless i's and j's, oneargument mrow and
invisible operators.
 lspace/rspace now only have effect on embellished operators inside
(inferred) mrow.
 Fix a bug with the columnspacing of rtl mtable.
 Use Unicode Mathematical alphanumeric characters for
bold/italic/bolditalic mathvariants
 Initial implementation of the MathVariants Table of the Open Type
MATH table. See
https://developer.mozilla.org/enUS/docs/Mozilla/MathML_Project/Fonts
* Gecko 32:
 Implement menclose notation "phasorangle"
 Other improvements to the MathML stretchy code.
* Gecko 33:
 Add support for mtable@rowspacing/columnspacing/framespacing attributes
 Use Open Type MATH constants for fractions, stacks, radicals and
scripts

Frédéric Wang
mathsinformatiquejeux.com/blog/frederic
Author: Shervin Afshar
(shervinafshar@gmail.com)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
I asked around and looked it up in some source (including Cajori), but to
no avail. Any clues about where else to look? Thanks.
Shervin
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Murray Sargent <
murrays@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote:
> Anyone know how "tie over infinity" ⧝ (29DD) is used in mathematics?
>
> Thanks,
> Murray
>
>
Author: Paul Libbrecht
(paul@hoplahup.net)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
Michael,
this is an interesting question and I would love it if you manage to publish back answers when you have them.
As far as I understand, you have no other way than really going native in this process since MathType equations are embedded objects.
I would give a last chance from the flash side of the world, which has a tendency to be a tick less protective or to a trusted Java applet which does have full access to the clipboard (we were able to implement the MathML clipboard operations for example within the Wiris OpenMath Input Editor using that, for example).
I would assume that the fine team at Design Science, two of them are on this list at least, would be able to dig out solutions, since they are the makers of MathType. I would expect solutions to be dependent on just about any combination of versions (OS, Word, MathType).
paul
On 12 juil. 2014, at 20:25, Michael <spdrmnky@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Hello, Group 
>
> Professional Publications, Inc. (ppi2pass.com) publishes content in print, web, and ebook forms containing significant mathematical content. Originally, we were a TEXbased publisher, but we have been steeped in XML/MathML for about a decade. We are trying to implement a process whereby authors who have developed content in Microsoft Word with a MathType plugin can cut and paste that content into a web form running on a Linux server. The goal is to retain all/most of the XML/MathML coding of equations, or to have postprocessing where we end up with that coding after the submission. That's the bottom line.
>
> Retaining the coding after cutandpaste on a Linuxplatform has stumped us. (This is specifically a MathType issue, not a Word Equation Editor issue.) Can anyone in this group (a) offer a ray of hope, (b) point to something, or (c) make themselves available for consultation?
>
> I've been a member of this group for years, so I apologize if this is an offtopic post. We'll appreciate any guidance for moving forwards.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Michael R. Lindeburg, PE
> President
> Professional Publications, Inc.
> mlindeburg@ppi2pass.com
> (650) 5939119 ext. 123
>
Author: Michael
(spdrmnky@pacbell.net)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
Author: Grégory Pakosz
(gpakosz@myscript.com)  Channel: wwwmath@w3.org Mail Archives
I appreciate the input.
But I'm not really interested in rendering MathML per se, be it with the help of CSS or any other "hack".
In the context of handwriting recognition, what I want is to get a sense of which MathML markup I should produce that could be consumed by any renderer and achieves alignment similar to what's been written.
I attached yet another screenshot in which you can see a handwritten long division in the center, on the left is a LaTeX render achieved using array and on the right is the MathML markup I'm generating so far. As you can see, the fact that the decimal dot takes a column makes me insert <none/> elements to keep things aligned.
Gregory
________________________________________
From: William F Hammond <hammond@csc.albany.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2014 11:45 PM
To: Grégory Pakosz
Cc: Neil Soiffer; wwwmath@w3.org
Subject: Re: Questions about Elementary Math
Not that you asked, but your original addition example
can be rendered using only CSS (no scripting):
http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/demos/purecss/mstackfs.html
 Bill