Planet MathML

The Planet MathML aggregates posts from various blogs that concern MathML. Although it is hosted by W3C, the content of the individual entries represent only the opinion of their respective authors and does not reflect the position of W3C.

Latest articles

Re: Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Stephen Noble (steve.noble@pearson.com) • October 06, 2022 • Permalink

Regrets for me. I'll be attending the American Printing House for the Blind annual conference here in Louisville.

--Steve




Steve Noble
Principal Researcher, Accessibility
Psychometrics & Testing Services

Pearson

502 969 3088
steve.noble@pearson.com<mailto:steve.noble@pearson.com>

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/xFjftXlwMzpdFeTtDgc4_IwyMYm8ThtQHIsgElkS8fyiCO2M7ZM0WaO7r2uy-bmKAe5S2sIcg7d-mwbD4ArkJhyafHke-SgJ2ui8DoGoBhZw4YIyWeK3LUozNMwBff4JR2tdu8nZ2fvoNvkkA06KNw9-s3P9UvYsHSTphHss6X0=s0-d-e1-ft#http://accessibility4school.pearson.com/access/4c49fe02-e204-46b4-b6f0-82f5a3f159cb/pearson-accessibility.jpg]

________________________________
From: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2022 8:30 PM
To: www-math@w3.org <www-math@w3.org>
Subject: Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

We meet at our standard time on Thursday, 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern,7pm Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing list<https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> for the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
2. 'intent' name list/registry/spreadsheet/...

No one proposed a different topic, so as promised I want to open the discussion about the location/format for the list of intents. It is not about intent naming/syntax.

To help guide the discussion, I think we should think about the five Ws<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ws> and start with "what", "why", and "who" questions:

  1.  What is the purpose of the list?
  2.  Why do we need a list (probably the same as "what")?
  3.  Who (author, developer, end user, ???) will make use of the list?

If we can come to consensus on those question in the call, the remaining questions are:

  *   When does the "who" need to access the list (static, real time)?
  *   Where should the list be located?

Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (soiffer@alum.mit.edu) • October 06, 2022 • Permalink

 We meet at our standard time on Thursday, 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern,7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html>
for the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details
in their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
2. 'intent' name list/registry/spreadsheet/...

No one proposed a different topic, so as promised I want to open the
discussion about the location/format for the list of intents. It is *not*
about intent naming/syntax.

To help guide the discussion, I think we should think about the five Ws
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ws> and start with "what", "why", and
"who" questions:

   1. What is the purpose of the list?
   2. Why do we need a list (probably the same as "what")?
   3. Who (author, developer, end user, ???) will make use of the list?

If we can come to consensus on those question in the call, the remaining
questions are:

   - When does the "who" need to access the list (static, real time)?
   - Where should the list be located?

Minutes: MathML Full meeting 29 Sept, 2022

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (soiffer@alum.mit.edu) • October 01, 2022 • Permalink

Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Steve Noble
   - David Carlisle
   - David Farmer
   - Bert Bos
   - Bruce Miller
   - Cary Supalo
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Murray Sargent
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Sam Dooley

Regrets Agenda1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: The MathML Core group voted to make a candidate release (CR). Part of
this process is to guarantee not to change the specification until a
certain date so that others can review a static document. NS set December
31, 2022, as the deadline for holding the specification unchanged.

BB: said that this was a reasonable time.
NS: Need to fill out some forms for various horizontal reviews. I set a
transition request date for October 16, 2022 as that gives them a little
time for review if they want to say something.

*ACTION* BB: Will not be available next week. Let him know if something
needs to be done.
2. Brainstorming around Deyan's "isa" idea #426
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/426>

DF: presented DG's "isa" proposal.

DF: We have been saying that math notation is ambiguous. Instead, we should
say that math is overloaded: more than one function is assigned to a
symbol. An example is (m superscript t). "m" could be a matrix and "t"
could mean transpose, or "m" could be a variable and "t" is a power to
which "m" should be raised.

The cardinality of a set is the number of elements in the set. Vertical
bars can mean cardinality or absolute value.

The same notation can mean several things depending upon the subject (or
context) in which it appears.

NS: (a,b) can be a point or an interval and unfortunately types don't help
there, so intent is still needed.

NS: isa avoids the hard problem of having to classify math, but does mean
we need to make a list of known "types".

DG's proposal will avoid using subjects in MathML.

DG: For accessibility there is an area which gives accessibility
information about an expression. You can use a shortcut command to get
information on what an expression is.

DG's proposal will handle a document with many subjects.

SD: likes DG's idea. The description is more precise than using subjects.
This will help give information on overloaded symbols.

SD: How do we represent types?

DG: Intent-isa is an attribute name. if you do not have this attribute, you
could use the AT "@" sign to link a symbol to an explanation.

DG: Do we create a new attribute, or do we put something into the present
structure that will not add new attributes?

NS: Likes to use a colon to indicate a variable's type. He would like to
create more attributes.

DC: This will make the grammar slightly more complicated.

DG: There is a danger of having confusing markup.

BM: He thinks "intent arg" keeps things together. He thinks "isa" is too
generic. He wants something associated with intent.

BM: Should we bring in new attributes or complicate the current structure.
the perceived complexity of intent is an issue. If the structure of MathML
allowed you to put a description on a specific element instead of having
the description higher in the accessibility tree, your MathML would be
simpler.

DG: There is no natural intent carrier for anything that has fences. You
must go a level up in the accessibility tree or add "mrows". This makes
very large MathML code.

DG: You should put your description near the expression, and not coming
from a higher part of the tree.

DG: wants to try some simpler syntax in MathML4 and revisit the issue in
MathML5.

NS: discussed an example from chemistry which made very complex MathML
code. Can "isa" make this clearer and simpler?

*ACTION* NS: will put the chemistry example into issue 426.

DG: wants to use intent in MathML4 and see if "isa" is needed in MathML5.

BM: Looking into the future, can we do things more elegantly by using more
"mrows"?

NS: MathML5 should focus on content to make it more usable.

DG: Our current charter says we are going to collect feedback then focus on
content.

DG: suggested that using ARIA-Described-by and ARIA-description might help
us use less complicated intent grammar. If we do not want to use ARIA, then
we can use "isa".

NS: "isa" value is very concise. ARIA-description might be language
oriented with longer descriptions. aria-description is for
"telling-me-more" about the expression, where "isa" can tell the "AT" what
to say on the first pass through the description.

NS: would like to see more examples worked out. He would like to see if you
need as many "mrows".

DG: wants to try examples produced by MathJax. He will then add intent and
"isa" code to the expressions to make them clearer from an accessibility
point of view, without changing the appearance of the MathJax MathML output.

DF: will also try this.

NS: MathJax can produce more spans very similar to the "mrows" used in
MathML.

*ACTION* DG: NS should send DG a complicated formula for testing.

From Deyan Ginev to Everyone: "progressive enhancement" / "remediation" ?

From Sam Dooley to Everyone: MathML-PI for MathML presentation plus intent

NS: If you are asking for ideas from others, then make an issue.

NS: We must talk about accessibility and internationalization in the
Specification. SN has written some text on this.

NS: We will talk about our Google Sheet table which lists intent values. NS
wonders is there a better way to store this information for MathML
generation.

Re: Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Stephen Watt (smwatt@gmail.com) • September 30, 2022 • Permalink

Please accept my regrets again.    As a reminder, Sept-Dec I am teaching
during the meeting time slot.

Stephen

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 11:15 PM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> Apologies for the late reminder -- somewhere I lost a day (I really need
> to clean up my office :-)
>
> We meet at our standard time on Thursday, 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern,7pm
> Central European Time.
>
> The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math"
> mailing list
> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> for
> the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in
> their calendars.
>
> Agenda
> 1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
> 2. Brainstorming around Deyan's "isa" idea #426
> <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/426>
>
> Please read through the issue before the meeting to come prepared with
> some ideas (it's not that long). I suspect the discussion might also touch
> on tables (again), "subject", and other ideas. Because this is both an
> interesting topic, has not been discussed much, and might touch many other
> areas, I think this will take up the whole hour.
>
>

Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (soiffer@alum.mit.edu) • September 29, 2022 • Permalink

 Apologies for the late reminder -- somewhere I lost a day (I really need
to clean up my office :-)

We meet at our standard time on Thursday, 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern,7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html>
for the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details
in their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
2. Brainstorming around Deyan's "isa" idea #426
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/426>

Please read through the issue before the meeting to come prepared with some
ideas (it's not that long). I suspect the discussion might also touch on
tables (again), "subject", and other ideas. Because this is both an
interesting topic, has not been discussed much, and might touch many other
areas, I think this will take up the whole hour.

Minutes: MathML Core meeting 26 Sept, 2022

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (soiffer@alum.mit.edu) • September 26, 2022 • Permalink

 Attendees

   - Brian Kardell
   - David Carlisle
   - Neil Soiffer
   - Bruce Miller
   - Bert Bos
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Murray Sargent

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-agenda-items>Agenda
Items
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-brief-progress-updates-plans->Brief
progress updates/plans?

Intent-to-ship status

   - Probably going to ship in Chromium 109 when printing is ready (stable
   targeted for Jan 10)
   - Fred landed a PR explaining "lays out like mrow"

DC: still have "intent" wanting to go in

BK: I'm ok with having it go in
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-css-display>CSS
display

BK: the integration with CSS went with a simple "magic" display: math.
Someone suggested that it should have a display value for each mathml
element. That person has since left mozilla but the suggestion remains. It
is not a blocker but something to think about.

BK: We can always make the change later.

   - https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5385
   - https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/105
   - https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5866#issuecomment-1159533365

NS: maybe think about making it level 2
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-interop-2023>Interop
2023

BK: this is where all the browser makers have interoperability problems and
there is a focus on fixing them.

BK: in the past there have been a mechinism where people suggest areas to
work on, there is complicated internal process for choosing among them.

BK: it has been very successfull in eliminating differences in the areas
being worked on.

BK: I've submitted a proposal for embedded content (SVG and MathML).
https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop/issues/147

BK: feel free to make a comment.

NS: e.g., polyfills have a problem in Firefox because CSS on mathml isn't
supported

BK: find the specific tests and link them.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-let-39-s-collect-a-vote-to-move-to-cr->Let's
collect a vote to move to CR.

NS: I'll move the open issue from #167 to a new issue and then David can
close the issue after updating the spec so fallback is infix, postfix,
prefix

BK: Proposal: we agree that once #157 is merged and #167 is fixed, we move
to CR.

NS: We have consensus to move to CR

BB: Need to get horizontal review

NS: I'll send out to the appropriate groups once the fixes are in.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-early-scoping-for-l2->Early
scoping for L2?

BK: I added this because of the display issue above.

BK: Make sure everything that is level 2 is probably labelled as level 2.

BB: In CSS, the levels include all of the previous drafts. Often they start
with something that says "the old stuff goes here" so it is obvious what is
new.

BK: Let's just make sure the level 2 label is complete and at the next
meeting or two let's start talking about those issues.

Minutes: MathML Full meeting 22 Sept, 2022

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (soiffer@alum.mit.edu) • September 24, 2022 • Permalink

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Bert Bos
   - David Carlisle
   - Cary Supalo
   - Sam Dooley
   - David Farmer
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Murray Sargent
   - Bruce Miller
   - Paul Libbrecht

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Steve Noble

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: At the TPAC chairs meeting, we were told people are not happy with
specs being out of date with the status of their projects(github editors
drafts). CSS was an example. The W3C wants the specs to be updated more
frequently to reflect their project status.

NS: We will have a vote at the core meeting on Monday, September 26, to
move core to a candidate recommendation.

NS: reported that BK said that the MathML implementation in Chromium has
not been shipped due to a printing issue. BK heard that the printing issue
would be corrected in version 109, but no guarantees. Chrome is at 105 and
chrome canary is at 108.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-2-operator-dictionary-order-of-preference-for-forms-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-167-167-a->2.
Operator dictionary: Order of preference for forms #167
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/167>

Resolved. DC: We agreed with Fred's solution.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-3-unicode-15-update>3.
Unicode 15 update

DC: New characters were added. They were not all accessible.

DC: discussed his suggested changes. The HTML group disagreed, and DC
dropped the changes for now.

DC: will send the changes to BB who will look up the quickest way to
release the changes.

From David Carlisle to Everyone: https://w3c.github.io/xml-entities/

*ACTION* BB: look up the best process to update the Rec. Due Sep 29.

*Resolved* moving the entities editors draft to a recommendation.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-4-media-types>4.
Media Types

PL: discussed issues with copy and paste and what he learned at TPAC. He
supports a system that allows web content to be copied to the clipboard,
and the receiving application will sanitize the content before adding it to
the receiving document.

*ACTION* NS: PL should open an issue on this for Moritz.

PL: This is a pull request. It is Implemented in chromium (hence Chrome and
Edge). It is not implemented in Safari or Firefox.

MUS: will look at this.

MUS: One step in the sanitation process is to identify the type of
information being received. MUS suggested first testing for MathML before
testing for other types of content.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-5-intent-should-prefer-reference-over-repeating-a-literal-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-422-422-a->5.
Intent should prefer reference over repeating a literal #422
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/422>

DF: It is better to reference something than to repeat the value.

DC: In the example under discussion, "x-prime" is a stand-alone variable
like "y". It does not mean the derivative of "x".

BM: In this case, "x-prime" has no relation to 'x'.

DG: We need more examples with underscores. If you want something to be a
unit, dashes are fine. you could use an underscore to tell the AT that this
is two speech entities.

NS: The examples need some work. Use DG's ideas when you can say when the
two types (dashes or underscores) should be used.

*ACTION* DG: has agreed to update the spec.

DC: Let us put the examples in the spec; and, if there are too many cases,
we will put them in notes.

PL: is working on a survey to see how math is spoken in different
languages. This was suggested by the internationalization WG. He wants this
survey to guide the "intent" implementation.

*ACTION* PL: If people know modern ways to make surveys, please give PL
this information.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-04#cp-md-0-6-dg-discuss-quot-subject-area-quot-by-example>6.
DG: discuss "subject area" by example

DG: Eight different subject areas were used in a proof presented at this
year's CICM conference.

DG: How do you make a proof accessible using many subject areas? How can
you annotate this for accessibility?

NS: would need to see the proof before he could suggest how it could be
spoken.

DG: Indeed maybe half of the complexity is just in the text. But the other
half would be in math notations.

DG: Integrals would be spoken differently depending on the subject where
the integral was used. The standard integral sign might be used in all
cases; therefore, AT may need to guess what kind of integral it was based
upon the subject.

DG: In higher math, various domains are combined. The intersection of
subject areas may be hard to predict as a user experience for "intent
defaults". The "@isa" approach may be a better fit.

DG: will discuss this in more detail next week.

DG: The preprint of the paper I talked about is available at (
https://arxiv.org/abs/2207.12742)

DG: I have also made available a screenshot of the slide I showed from
Sebastien's talk at:
https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/348975/191818704-7ede84ac-2a54-4d64-958c-66e5f0c4dea3.png

MathML-Core meeting, Monday Sept 26, 2022

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Brian Kardell (bkardell@gmail.com) • September 23, 2022 • Permalink

Reminder we have a MathML-Core meeting on Monday... We have a slightly
different agenda so far, please add anything you'd like to add...

https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/168

-- 
Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com

Re: Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Stephen Noble (steve.noble@pearson.com) • September 20, 2022 • Permalink

Regrets...I'll be "on holiday" the rest of this week after today.

--Steve



Steve Noble
Principal Researcher, Accessibility
Psychometrics & Testing Services

Pearson

502 969 3088
steve.noble@pearson.com<mailto:steve.noble@pearson.com>

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/xFjftXlwMzpdFeTtDgc4_IwyMYm8ThtQHIsgElkS8fyiCO2M7ZM0WaO7r2uy-bmKAe5S2sIcg7d-mwbD4ArkJhyafHke-SgJ2ui8DoGoBhZw4YIyWeK3LUozNMwBff4JR2tdu8nZ2fvoNvkkA06KNw9-s3P9UvYsHSTphHss6X0=s0-d-e1-ft#http://accessibility4school.pearson.com/access/4c49fe02-e204-46b4-b6f0-82f5a3f159cb/pearson-accessibility.jpg]

________________________________
From: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 3:19 PM
To: www-math@w3.org <www-math@w3.org>
Subject: Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

TPAC is done, so back to our regular schedule...

We meet at our standard time on Thursday, 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern,7pm Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing list<https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html> for the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details in their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
2. Operator dictionary: Order of preference for forms #167<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/167>
3. Unicode 15 update
4. Intent should prefer reference over repeating a literal #422<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/422>

Reminder: MathML Full meeting on Thursday

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (soiffer@alum.mit.edu) • September 20, 2022 • Permalink

 TPAC is done, so back to our regular schedule...

We meet at our standard time on Thursday, 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern,7pm
Central European Time.

The meeting details were sent to the W3C members-only "member-math" mailing
list <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2021May/0000.html>
for the group. The regulars for this group should have the meeting details
in their calendars.

Agenda
1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
2. Operator dictionary: Order of preference for forms #167
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/167>
3. Unicode 15 update
4. Intent should prefer reference over repeating a literal #422
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/422>

Copy and paste from JavaScript: custom types

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Paul Libbrecht (paul@hoplahup.net) • September 20, 2022 • Permalink

Dear fellows of the www-math mailing-list,

Many of you know how difficult it is to activate the clipboard so that 
web-pages can offer copyable content that interoperate with other sites. 
Several apps (including MS Word) work around this by transporting MathML 
source code  in the plain text. But that has many problems.

A novelty has appeared recently in the Clipboard APIs in JavaSCript 
which has an implementation on Blink-based browsers (Chrome, Edge, 
Opera): Custom web types can be copied by web-pages if authorised. And 
these custom web types have exactly the content that was dictated (as 
opposed to HTML or pictures which get sanitized). Apps that want to use 
it need to follow a bit of naming conventions and will have to sanitize 
themselves.

That means that a web-page can have JavaScript that exposes MathML and 
TeX and MathML-content and… and that receiving apps or websites can 
also read that without some filtering happening through the pipe.

A demo is done in [this blog 
page](https://mathmlmuses.netlify.app/trymathml-copy-customtypes/) which 
copies a slightly big MathML expression.

This is very exciting for the interoperability of formulæ on the web 
and I am sure that desktop apps will benefit of this when this is 
stabilised!

Paul

Minutes: TPAC meeting

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (soiffer@alum.mit.edu) • September 15, 2022 • Permalink

 Once again, many thanks to Louis for scribing (google wants to correct
this to "scribbling" :-)
Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Steve Noble
   - Bert Bos
   - Bruce Miller
   - Sam Dooley
   - David Carlisle
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Murray Sargent
   - Kevin Ellis
   - John Hudson

Regrets

   - Steven Watt

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-02#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda

The attendees introduced themselves.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-02#cp-md-0-9-00am-general-question-and-answer-for-those-who-do-not-normally-participate-in-mathml-meetings>9:00am:
general question and answer for those who do not normally participate in
MathML meetings

MathML drafts

https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml4/

https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-core/
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-02#cp-md-0-9-20am-mathml-core-update>9:20am:
MathML core —— update

Discussed "intent to ship" for chrome. It is ready for use except for
printing. The Chromium team is working on print for the new layout engine
that the MathML implementation uses and hopes to finish up in the next
couple of months.

Firefox can already display MathML.

NS: discussed the videos we made for this meeting.

NS: Videos are at https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/group-updates.html#mathwg
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-02#cp-md-0-9-20am-mathml-amp-media-types-next-steps>9:20am:
MathML & Media Types -- next steps

MathML Media-type Declarations <https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-media-types/>

PL: Did not receive any comments on his work.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-02#cp-md-0-9-30am-deep-dive-into-quot-intent-quot-issues-in-an-attempt-to-resolve-them-or-at-least-better-group-them>9:30am:
Deep dive into "intent" issues in an attempt to resolve them or at least
better group them

NS: General intro for those new to the group.

NS: How do you make math speak well? There are different systems to output
speech.

NS: introduced intent with a power example.

NS: discussed prototype methods for speaking things. One prototype is MathCAT
(math Capable Assistive Technology) <https://nsoiffer.github.io/MathCAT/>

PL: discussed combining content MathML with intent.

NS: wanted to show cases of content MathML being converted into
presentation MathML with intent.

DC: suggested that we not discuss content mixed with intent until we find a
case that requires mixing content with intent.

NS: wants to have examples that show content with intent if we are allowing
it in the spec.

SD: offered to show examples of content MathML being converted into
presentation MathML with intent. For most cases, we can start with content
and generate presentation with intent.

PL: sent this: https://w3c.github.io/mathml/#contm_p2s_cn

BM: We are trying to find some content to put intent on. He says we should
not discuss intent with content until we have a compelling need to have it.

NS: Content is not widely used, so finding compelling cases is going to be
difficult.

NS: We are not changing content in this specification, but we could say
that presentation MathML should not contain content.That would mean there
is no need to find examples.

NS: If we do not allow content with presentation, the intent attribute
becomes much simpler.

DC: Mixes content and presentation for his internal work. Shows some
examples from NAG.

DC: In the examples in chapter four we put intent on the presentation and
not in the content.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-02#cp-md-0-10-30am-break>10:30am:
Break
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.1.0-02#cp-md-0-10-45am-continue-deep-dive-into-quot-intent-quot-issues>10:45am:
Continue deep dive into "intent" issues

NS: How do we handle tables. sibling intent references · Issue #402
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/402>

NS: In TeX, we align things by putting things in tables. How does intent
refer to this without being cumbersome.

DC: There is a problem when the row is longer than one line. You get
wrapped equations.

BM: You should always be able to describe it at the mtable level.

BM: The inability to maintain a complicated structure is why we left out
relative paths.

NS: We will not change the MathML; we will just change how it is read with
intent.

BM: Our speaking rules become very vague to handle complex examples.

NS: How do we bring two rows together. We must use the table approach.

BM: You can devise a rule for speech that works 90 percent of the time. You
will have to come up with a markup for the exceptions which make things
less clean.

BM: You can make an mrow, then make an intent for the entire mrow.

NS: MathCAT has three levels of navigation, the character-based mode, the
simple mode which does not understand structures very well, it does not
know that there is a left hand or right-hand side, and enhanced mode which
does know about structures. The enhanced mode should follow the intent
structure and indicate equation numbers appropriately, gluing the rows
together, etc. It doesn't do this now.

NS: There have been attempts to use overview descriptions to describe
equations, and this was not popular in user studies (ClearSpeak and
Karshmer's editor). Nonetheless, we both believe that it should be useful.
Not enough effort/thought was put into MathPlayer's implementation and that
might be why it wasn't popular.

BM: It is a good idea to be told the shape of the system of equations
before you describe them in detail.

NS: You can put a line break in a long equation row.

BM: We can work with what we have now. (DC showed examples of diagonal
matrices, lower-triangular matrices, and matrices with sub-matrices. How do
you speak those? The interesting part may be that it is a triangular
matrix.)

NS: His guide is to follow how things are spoken in a classroom, although
for some things, it isn't clear how they are spoken in the classroom.

All: some discussion of special matrix forms such as tri-diagonal matrices
and block matrices.

PL: says that the internationalization group wanted to have a survey of how
things are spoken in classrooms for various languages.

PL: We did that for long division in the past, with interesting results.

NS: Speaking the long division, the trick is recognizing is that it shows a
process, step1, step2, etc. MathPlayer describes a step, says "next step",
and repeats the pattern.

PL: So, survey is useful. Might be good to not just get text, but also
record the voice.

PL: Suggested that we record people speaking mathematics in various
languages.

NS: We would not understand what they are saying. Who would understand
Chinese?

**ACTION* PL: will start considering how we can survey how math is spoken
in classrooms using other languages.

BM: If you read everything, you may have to put intent on each entity.

DG: proposed that as you read each number, the number type would be
described. You would be told if the number were real or complex.

NS: Does overviews of expressions and allows you to zoom down into the
various expressions.

NS: We have a list of intents some in core and some open. We must decide
what to do with all these intents. That will be a topic for another day.

NS: Summary: we will live with ugliness for tables.

BM: suggested looking at n-ary Intent discussion · Issue #253
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/253> to eliminate some ugliness.

DC: began a discussion on how "*"s could be used in intent to refer to a
list of arguments.

NS: thanked everyone for sticking around for the long meeting.

Re: agenda+ when should https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml point to MathML4?

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (soiffer@alum.mit.edu) • September 12, 2022 • Permalink

Bert,

Thanks for mentioning the option. At some point we will likely take that
up. However, at this point in time, we are a long way from being ready to
do the switch. "intent" needs lots of work. Right now, it is basically a
strawman so that others can look at it, comment on it, and experiment with
it. Getting to FPWD makes it a little more likely that those outside the
Math WG will take a look at it and provide feedback.

    Neil


On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 8:58 AM Bert Bos <bert@w3.org> wrote:

> Not urgent, but we should discuss some day when we want the generic
> MathML link https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml to point to MathML version 4
> instead of version 3.
>
> Traditionally, the generic link for a specification points to the latest
> Recommendation, but that is not a requirement anymore. It can point to
> the specification that the WG considers the "most relevant" (most
> stable, most useful...)
>
> We can wait until MathML4 is a Candidate Recommendation, or maybe there
> will be a draft that we consider "better" than MathML3 even before that.
>
>
>
> Bert
> --
>   Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/
>   http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
>   bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
>   +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France
>

Call for Exclusions: Mathematical Markup Language (MathML) Version 4.0

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • sysbot+ipp@w3.org (sysbot+ipp@w3.org) • September 08, 2022 • Permalink

Dear Advisory Committee Representatives, Team Contact, 

This is a W3C Patent Policy Call for Exclusions for the following
Recommendation Track document upon publication of its First Public Working Draft:

  Mathematical Markup Language (MathML) Version 4.0
  https://www.w3.org/TR/2022/WD-mathml4-20220908/
  exclusion opportunity ending on 2023-02-05
  This specification was produced by:
      - the Math Working Group
  
If you do not wish to exclude patent claims during this exclusion
opportunity, no further action is required. Member participants who
think their organization may have patent claims to exclude should
contact their Advisory Committee Representative.

Participants made a Royalty-Free licensing commitment upon joining this
Working Group. With the publication of this document, per section 4.1 of
the Patent Policy [1], Participants have an opportunity until 2023-02-05
to exclude patent claims reading on this Recommendation-track document.
Excluded claims are not subject to the licensing requirements of the W3C
Patent Policy for this document. For more information about exclusions,
please see
  https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy/#sec-Exclusion

To make exclusions, please use the following form
  https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/35549/exclude

The Patent Policy anticipates that the documents will evolve during the
90 days following the first publication.  Per section 4.1 of the Patent
Policy [1], whatever draft is available on 2022-12-07 establishes the
reference material for the purposes of this exclusion opportunity.
Just after 2022-12-07 we will send a reminder of this exclusion opportunity.

Per section 4.2 of the Patent Policy [2], a Participant may resign from
the Working Group before 2022-12-07 and be excused from all licensing
commitments arising out of Working Group participation.

To resign from the Working Group before 2022-12-07, please use the
following form:
  https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/math/leave

Summary information for this group related to the W3C Patent Policy is
available at:
  https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/math/ipr

If you have any questions or need further information, please contact,
for the Math Working Group:
    Bert Bos <bert@w3.org>
  
Thank you,

For Tim Berners-Lee, W3C Director;
Xueyuan Jia, W3C Marketing & Communications

[1] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy/#sec-exclusion-with
[2] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy/#sec-exclusion-resign

-- 
This message was sent by the Patent Policy toolset.
Report any issue to sysbot+ipp@w3.org

Re: First draft of MathML4 has been published

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (soiffer@alum.mit.edu) • September 08, 2022 • Permalink

Let me echo Bert in giving thanks to Davod for all the hard work he has put
into not only making the draft be right/meet the W3C requirements, but
pushing us all forward to get things done so it could happen.

    Neil


On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 6:04 PM Bert Bos <bert@w3.org> wrote:

> Just in time for TPAC, the first draft of MathML4 is now officially
> published:
>
>     https://www.w3.org/TR/2022/WD-mathml4-20220908/
>
> Thanks to the authors and especially to David Carlisle, who did the
> editing!
>
>
>
> Bert
> --
>   Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/
>   http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
>   bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
>   +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France
>

First draft of MathML4 has been published

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Bert Bos (bert@w3.org) • September 08, 2022 • Permalink

Just in time for TPAC, the first draft of MathML4 is now officially 
published:

    https://www.w3.org/TR/2022/WD-mathml4-20220908/

Thanks to the authors and especially to David Carlisle, who did the 
editing!



Bert
-- 
  Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/
  http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
  bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
  +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France

agenda+ when should https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml point to MathML4?

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Bert Bos (bert@w3.org) • September 08, 2022 • Permalink

Not urgent, but we should discuss some day when we want the generic 
MathML link https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml to point to MathML version 4 
instead of version 3.

Traditionally, the generic link for a specification points to the latest 
Recommendation, but that is not a requirement anymore. It can point to 
the specification that the WG considers the "most relevant" (most 
stable, most useful...)

We can wait until MathML4 is a Candidate Recommendation, or maybe there 
will be a draft that we consider "better" than MathML3 even before that.



Bert
-- 
  Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/
  http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
  bert@w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
  +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France

First Public Working Draft: Mathematical Markup Language (MathML) Version 4.0

Source: W3C News • Xueyuan Jia • September 08, 2022 • Permalink

The Math Working Group has published a First Public Working Draft of Mathematical Markup Language (MathML) Version 4.0. MathML is a markup language for describing mathematical notation and capturing both its structure and content. The goal is to enable mathematics to be served, received, and processed on the World Wide Web, just as HTML has enabled this for text.

This specification is intended primarily for those who will be developing or implementing renderers or editors, or software that will communicate using MathML.

About 38 of the MathML tags describe abstract notational structures, while another about 170 provide a way of unambiguously specifying the intended meaning of an expression.

While MathML is human-readable, authors typically will use equation editors, conversion programs, and other specialized software tools to generate MathML.

MathML4 is the 4th version of the language, which started with MathML 1 in 1998.

Re: TPAC Meeting details for Wednesday, 14 September

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Stephen Watt (smwatt@gmail.com) • September 06, 2022 • Permalink

Neil and colleagues,

Please accept my regrets -- unfortunately this timing coincides with an
event I am to attend.

Stephen

On Tue, Sep 6, 2022 at 1:06 PM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> Reminder: everyone needs to register. If you haven't already done so, you
> can still do so on Monday (you should have done it 1-2 months ago). You can
> still register for free by emailing the W3C and they will send some magic
> link or code. For details, scroll down the registration info page
> <https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/registration.html>.
>
> W3C calender entry
> <https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c4fa2d8e-7aa3-415f-8792-483f92a85713>with
> room location. Remote participants should use the standard zoom link.
>
> For those who will be there in person, here is what the W3C sent about
> things to know/do:
>
>> - At the beginning of each meeting, please make sure that you remind the
>> health rules to your group. The summary is available at:
>> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/signage/mask-required-03.html
>>
>> - The meals location are at:
>> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/schedule.html (detailed for each day)
>>
>> - A list of restaurants with outdoor options is also available at:
>> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2022/Restaurants for your group dinners.
>> (And linked from https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/venue.html)
>> We recommend you to wear a mask in public places, limit the number of
>> guests at one table and eat outdoor when permitted.
>>
>

TPAC Meeting details for Wednesday, 14 September

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (soiffer@alum.mit.edu) • September 06, 2022 • Permalink

Reminder: everyone needs to register. If you haven't already done so, you
can still do so on Monday (you should have done it 1-2 months ago). You can
still register for free by emailing the W3C and they will send some magic
link or code. For details, scroll down the registration info page
<https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/registration.html>.

W3C calender entry
<https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c4fa2d8e-7aa3-415f-8792-483f92a85713>with
room location. Remote participants should use the standard zoom link.

For those who will be there in person, here is what the W3C sent about
things to know/do:

> - At the beginning of each meeting, please make sure that you remind the
> health rules to your group. The summary is available at:
> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/signage/mask-required-03.html
>
> - The meals location are at:
> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/schedule.html (detailed for each day)
>
> - A list of restaurants with outdoor options is also available at:
> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2022/Restaurants for your group dinners.
> (And linked from https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/venue.html)
> We recommend you to wear a mask in public places, limit the number of
> guests at one table and eat outdoor when permitted.
>

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