The
*Planet MathML* aggregates posts from various blogs that
concern MathML. Although it is hosted by W3C, the content of the
individual entries represent only the opinion of their respective
authors and **does not reflect the position of
W3C.**

- RE: Reminder: Meeting today • July 11, 2017
- Re: Reminder: Meeting today • July 06, 2017
- Re: Reminder: Meeting today • July 06, 2017
- RE: Reminder: Meeting today • July 06, 2017
- Re: Reminder: Meeting today • July 06, 2017
- Reminder: Meeting today • July 06, 2017
- American Physical Society continues as MathJax Supporter • June 27, 2017
- [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/06/22 • June 26, 2017
- Re: [math-on-web] reminder: meeting 2017/06/22 • June 22, 2017
- Re: [math-on-web] reminder: meeting 2017/06/22 • June 22, 2017
- Re: [math-on-web] reminder: meeting 2017/06/22 • June 22, 2017
- [math-on-web] reminder: meeting 2017/06/22 • June 22, 2017
- Math Braille UI • June 21, 2017
- Pearson continues as MathJax Supporter • June 16, 2017
- [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/06/08 • June 14, 2017
- RE: [math-on-web] meeting agenda 2017/06/08 • June 08, 2017
- RE: [math-on-web] meeting agenda 2017/06/08 • June 08, 2017
- [math-on-web] meeting agenda 2017/06/08 • June 07, 2017
- Re: Displaying LaTeX expression as a plain text in MathJax • June 02, 2017
- Re: Displaying LaTeX expression as a plain text in MathJax • June 02, 2017
**[List of feeds]**

Hi Liam, Sorry for my delayed answer but I'm in the middle of closing many projects. It is great that some people still think that with CSS should be possible to do mathematics easier. It is probably very improbable to be able to do all the MathML specification. But, at least, simple formulas with fractions, roots and matrices, among others, should be achievable. You say > If this CG were to come up with a list of the most urgent things together > with some tests (and patches for browsers?) I can see something happening. That's for sure a starting point and makes sense working in this direction. We can elaborate it more during the following group meetings. I appreciate very much your suggestion. Daniel Marques -----Original Message----- From: Liam R. E. Quin [mailto:liam@w3.org] Sent: jueves, 6 de julio de 2017 20:45 To: Arno Gourdol; Daniel Marques Cc: Peter Krautzberger; mathonweb Subject: Re: Reminder: Meeting today On Thu, 2017-07-06 at 10:20 -0700, Arno Gourdol wrote: > Minutes from the meeting today. Any transcription errors are my own. > > Display of math in HTML 5 It took more than a decade for SVG to get supported natively in Web browsers, so "never" isn't right. The support is neither perfect nor complete (e.g. browser vendors don't seem to like SMIL animation, possibly because it reminds them of XML) but it's usable. If this CG were to come up with a list of the most urgent things together with some tests (and patches for browsers?) I can see something happening. Built-up fences, fractions, stretching characters (e.g. via font transformation matrix), aligning separate blocks (displayed equations) on the = sign even if there isn't one, all also have applications outside mathematics, so having CSS able to do them would make sense to me. [...] > Would be much better to have an API to measure offscreen elements. To some extent you can do this today, but you can't get at font metrics, and in particular the math table. There are some privacy issues, but if it was restricted to downloaded fonts maybe that would be OK. A set of proposals for CSS might be something that the CSS WG could conceivably consider at TPAC. Liam

On Thu, 2017-07-06 at 10:20 -0700, Arno Gourdol wrote: > Minutes from the meeting today. Any transcription errors are my own. > > Display of math in HTML 5 It took more than a decade for SVG to get supported natively in Web browsers, so "never" isn't right. The support is neither perfect nor complete (e.g. browser vendors don't seem to like SMIL animation, possibly because it reminds them of XML) but it's usable. If this CG were to come up with a list of the most urgent things together with some tests (and patches for browsers?) I can see something happening. Built-up fences, fractions, stretching characters (e.g. via font transformation matrix), aligning separate blocks (displayed equations) on the = sign even if there isn't one, all also have applications outside mathematics, so having CSS able to do them would make sense to me. [...] > Would be much better to have an API to measure offscreen elements. To some extent you can do this today, but you can't get at font metrics, and in particular the math table. There are some privacy issues, but if it was restricted to downloaded fonts maybe that would be OK. A set of proposals for CSS might be something that the CSS WG could conceivably consider at TPAC. Liam

Minutes from the meeting today. Any transcription errors are my own. Display of math in HTML 5 Peter want to discuss MathML, but not feeling well today and he sends his apologies. Neil Soiffer: Peter has said that MathML is inadequate on the web. What are its particular limitations/problems? Volker Sorge: MathML is a fine presentation language. But it’s not implemented, and probably won’t be fully implemented. It’s not modern enough. It was trying to do things ten years ago that are now available in CSS/HTML. What is really *necessary* to render Math that is not available in HTML/CSS today? Rather than keep asking for an implementation of MathML that is not happening. Neil: Understood, but custom elements, shadow DOM may be a way to leave the DOM clean and use CSS for rendering. And it’s been closer to twenty years, not ten! So, are there things very problematic in MathML that would never make it in CSS? For example, I’ve always been opposed to <mfence>, <mstyle>, but what else? <someone>: <mfence>: we all hate it! Neil: Always regretted <mfence>, I’d be happy to see it go. What else are we talking about? Maybe you don’t believe in Shadow DOM or custom elements, but if they do happen, it would leave the DOM nice and clean. Volker: do you expect browsers to implement MathML or web apps to make use of it. Should MathML not be adapted to be more realistic to what browsers would actually implement? Neil: The problem with MathJax, etc… is that you’re polluting the DOM and have spans, etc… that don’t represent the content, but just the presentation. Shadow DOM could help with that. I’d like to see browser implementation of MathML, but the major thing is to have a clean DOM instead of a tag soup. I’d like to see MathML implemented with a shadow DOM, and maybe it would encourage browser vendors to adopt it. Volker: One of my main issues with MathML is that presentation MathML has some semantic in it, which can be confusing and abused for other things. Is it really necessary to have a special <mfrac> or special square root, etc.. rather than something more general to “enclose” elements. Stretching characters is a particular problem to cover. Neil: <menclose> has a square root option, but you’d rather see it generalized? Not sure how we would deal with n-th root, but there might be a way. Volker: yeah, and same thing for fractions. In particular for accessibility, you’d want to control the order: just have a bar and specify where the numer/denom is in the DOM. Neil: asian languages read fractions the other way around, but they’re displayed the same way. Volker: you’d want to draw them the same way, but want to traverse them differently in the DOM. Neil: not sure I see the need for that. If a screen reader wants to read in a certain way, they can determine what is the right order Arno: but wouldn’t it be difficult without the semantic information for the screen reader to infer the correct order? Volker: I don’t always want to represent a fraction, so I want to be able to give it explicit order, kinda like a ‘z-index’, but for reading order. For example, in logic, when you want to talk about conclusions before premises, the author may want to specify the correct order. There should be a better separation between presentation and semantics. Dani: the assistive technology can read the page, can access the DOM, but the assistive technology shouldn’t have to infer the semantic Volker: yes. With web apps for example, you can implement a pull down menu for example, however you want. The ARIA attributes will give screen readers the right info to interpret it correctly. Neil: there is a difference. Screen readers already know about buttons, etc… but they don’t know about fractions, etc.. Volker: true, but couldn’t you put some descriptions for the things they don’t know. Neil: they would need to know about some primitives: fractions, deductions, etc… Volker: what would they need to know about semantics? Couldn’t they just have some info about order, and what to say? Neil: but that’s language dependent. The order and how to say it in other languages. In fact, with math speech, there isn’t a single way to say something. Why force it? Volker: if I’m in an English web page, I don’t expect the screen reader to tell it to me in German. If there’s English math on it, it should read it in English, not try to localize it in German. Neil: Once it’s been generated, the language is known, I agree, but there are still multiple way to speak math notations. Steve Noble went to a school, but a teacher said “that’s not how I say parenthesis”. And another teacher in the same school was saying the same thing completely differently (“open paren” vs. “left paren”, etc…) Volker: shouldn’t the author be in control of that? Neil: the teacher might be reading Wikipedia or Kahn academy, something they didn’t author. For example, screen readers give control over how much punctuations are said. Steve Noble: We found that students who are visually impaired needed the additional language (“begin root”/“end root”) to read while other students who are dyslexic for example would stumble with that same additional language. Users that use a Braille Nemeth reader need a different rendering that Braille users using a different system. Volker: I agree there’s still a lot of work to do on the screen reader side, but I still don’t see why we need MathML for that. Unfortunately, I do have the leave the call now. Steve: I see three pillars: (1) There are problems with the MathML standard and they should be fixed. (2) browsers and other tools need to implement MathML. (3) techniques we use in the meantime, like MathJAX, while the other pillars get resolved on their own timeline Volker: I don’t feel like the second pillar will ever happen, and we should step back and determine more realistic goals in terms of changes to CSS/HTML, like stretchy characters. Dani: MathML is also important from the authoring point of view: if you create a tool to create a formula you need an interoperable way to exchange machine-readable formulas between tools. Arno: what would be the benefit of MathML over LaTeX for interchange? Neil: the problem with LaTeX is that it’s a programming language, with no fixed syntax, lots of extensions. Too powerful to be used for exchange unless you have a full TeX engine. Also MathML is easy to parse, since it’s XML, easy to get a tree. Arno: have there been discussions of a JSON version of MathML that would be even easier to parse? Neil: not aware of it, but there are mapping between XML and JSON, so it’s certainly possible. Dani: didn’t think a lot about what I would change in MathML, but interoperability between browsers could be better. Simple things like fractions, stretchy characters is where the difficulties are today, so changing MathML would not be a priority for me. Neil: Another thing that would be useful could be font info. Arno: Agreed. To do a layout with CSS/HTML you sometimes have to get measurements of elements, and it’s not always easy to do. You have to use some workarounds, like creating elements and temporarily inserting them as invisible elements in the page in order to get their bounding rectangles. Would be much better to have an API to measure offscreen elements. It would also be very useful to have access to information such as the math axis and other math typesetting specific data which are available in some “math” fonts such as Cambria Math (see https://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/math.htm). Dani: but some of that info is not proportional to the font size. For example, a 2pt value at 16pt may need to be 5pt at 32pt. Arno: That’s right, and that’s the information that is included in those ‘math’ tables that are embedded in ‘math’ fonts, but that information is not accessible from CSS or Javascript. Same thing if the concept of “math axis” similar to the concept of “baseline” was understood by CSS. It would make math layout much easier. That would be really nice to have. Perhaps an area of further discussion and collaboration with the CSS WG and others?

Hi, I updated the examples of formulas with solely HTML5 at https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/html5.html I’ve added two examples with matrices at the end of the page. It seems realistic to display simple matrices with HTML5 except for the known limitations with stretchy parenthesis and vertical align that needs precomputed numeric alignment. Dani *From:* Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter@krautzource.com] *Sent:* jueves, 6 de julio de 2017 17:24 *To:* mathonweb *Subject:* Re: Reminder: Meeting today Last minute regrets from me, I'm afraid. If somebody can minute the meeting, that would be great. Best, Peter. On Jul 6, 2017 5:03 PM, "Peter Krautzberger" <peter@krautzource.com> wrote: Hi everyone, We are scheduled to meet today, July 6, 12pm Eastern time. (I.e. in about 1 hour.) The meeting topic is MathML. Best, Peter.

Last minute regrets from me, I'm afraid. If somebody can minute the meeting, that would be great. Best, Peter. On Jul 6, 2017 5:03 PM, "Peter Krautzberger" <peter@krautzource.com> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > We are scheduled to meet today, July 6, 12pm Eastern time. (I.e. in about > 1 hour.) > > The meeting topic is MathML. > > Best, > Peter. >

The American Physical Society (APS) continues to support the MathJax project as a MathJax Supporter.

Founded in 1899, the American Physical Society (APS) is the world’s largest organization of physicists and involved in several activities to advance and diffuse the knowledge of physics, including a strong publication program with landmark titles such as Physical Review Letters, the Physical Review journals, and Reviews of Modern Physics. As an influential supporter of SGML-based math notation in the 1990s and an early adopter of MathML, the APS has long been furthering innovation in academic communication.

“MathJax continues to be an essential component for rendering high-quality mathematics on the web. APS remains dedicated to supporting the significant improvements expected with MathJax 3.0 and appreciates the opportunity to contribute through our participation on the technical committee,” said Mark Doyle, Chief Information Officer, American Physical Society. “Modernizing MathJax with new flexibility and control will help us to serve our readers well into the future.”

“Thanks to dedicated sponsors like APS, we are able to develop MathJax continuously,” comments Peter Krautzberger, MathJax manager. “We are very grateful for their continued support as it allows us to keep MathJax the universal, high-quality rendering solution it is today”.

We look forward to continuing the collaboration with APS, and welcome their ongoing support for the MathJax project.

Hi everyone, Below are the minutes from the CG meeting last week. A bit more condensed than usual. The next meeting will be on July 6 and we'll broadly discuss MathML. Best, Peter. # [math on web CG] minutes 2017-06-22 * Peter: statuson https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1339 * more input from MathJax side * first positive responses from Tab * => more feedback needed * Arno: mathlive now on github * https://github.com/arnog/mathlive/ * some discusssion around the code base * What do we want to talk about next? layout, a11y, formats * Neil: interested in talking broadly about MathML * some preliminary discussion what that might entail * => agreed

My apologies. I have to go out on short notice. I might catch the end of the meeting. Best, Volker On 22 June 2017 at 12:24, Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Just a reminder that we're meeting today. > > The focus topic will be layout, continuing from the last meeting. > > Best wishes, > Peter.

Same (waves down the table to Charles ☺) From: Charles LaPierre <charlesl@benetech.org> Date: Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 9:01 AM To: Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com> Cc: "public-mathonwebpages@w3.org" <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org> Subject: Re: [math-on-web] reminder: meeting 2017/06/22 Resent-From: <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org> Resent-Date: Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 9:02 AM Regrets I am at the W3C Publishing Face to Face meetings in New York today. Thanks EOM Charles LaPierre Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:charlesl@benetech.org> Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y Skype: charles_lapierre Phone: 650-600-3301 On Jun 22, 2017, at 7:24 AM, Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com<mailto:peter@krautzource.com>> wrote: Hi everyone, Just a reminder that we're meeting today. The focus topic will be layout, continuing from the last meeting. Best wishes, Peter.

Regrets I am at the W3C Publishing Face to Face meetings in New York today. Thanks EOM Charles LaPierre Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:charlesl@benetech.org> Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y Skype: charles_lapierre Phone: 650-600-3301 On Jun 22, 2017, at 7:24 AM, Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com<mailto:peter@krautzource.com>> wrote: Hi everyone, Just a reminder that we're meeting today. The focus topic will be layout, continuing from the last meeting. Best wishes, Peter.

For sighted users, Microsoft Office applications like Word, PowerPoint and OneNote have user interface (UI) cues that reveal math zones, selected text, the insertion point (IP) if no text is selected, and the argument of the innermost math object (fraction, subscript, integral, matrix, …) that contains the IP. Math speech also reveals these properties. These sighted and speech math UI’s enable unambiguous reading and editing of mathematics. Naturally, it’s desirable to reveal these properties in refreshable braille displays as well. This post describes a promising methodology. We represent math using the Nemeth math code since it is the most efficient for the math zones used in modern applications such as Microsoft Word and LaTeX.

First here’s how these features are revealed to sighted users. In all math-enabled Office apps, the innermost math argument containing the IP is lightly shaded and selected text has the same selection background color as text not in math zones. In PowerPoint and OneNote, the math object containing the IP is shaded a bit more lightly than the argument and if the IP isn’t in a math object, the whole math zone has this lighter shading. In Word, the math zone is enclosed in a boundary and the object containing the IP doesn’t have the lighter shading. The user always knows what kind of an argument is involved just by looking at the built-up (Professional) display. This information is also conveyed in math fine-grained speech.

A refreshable braille display typically has a row of 40 or 80 8-dot cells with the dots represented by small rounded pins that are raised by solenoids. The dots are arranged in two columns of four dots. The left column is numbered starting at the top 1, 2, 3, 7 and the right column is numbered starting from the top 4, 5, 6, 8. Like most braille codes, the Nemeth math code uses the dots 1 through 6. This leaves dots 7 and 8 for UI purposes, although dot 7 is occasionally used to indicate upper case. The Nemeth code precedes a letter with the capitalization indicator “⠠” (lone dot 6) to get upper-case letters, e.g., “⠠⠁” for “A” since “⠁” is the braille code for the letter a. So, we don’t use dot 7 to indicate upper case, at least in math zones.

The regular math braille display shows the whole math zone in braille, limited only by the number of display cells. This gives a lot of context to math braille, significantly more than math speech provides, but not as much as screen or paper.

Typically, selected text appears with both dots 7 and 8. So if “a” is selected, it appears as “⣁”. This approach seems well suited to math expressions as well.

We’re left with needing ways to identify a math zone and the insertion point and to highlight the innermost argument containing the IP if any. Braille displays don’t have multiple shading levels, only two extra dots! They also have hot keys.

The IP needs a cell by itself to stand out. As described in the
post
Text Insertion Point, the IP is *in between* two
characters in rich text, although for plain text one can get away
with thinking of the IP as being on top of the character that
actually follows the IP. Built-up (Professional) math text is rich
text notably because it has special display constructs, such as
stacked fractions, multilevel subscripts and superscripts,
integrals, matrices, etc. For this purpose (and perhaps others),
dots 7-8 “⣀” comprise a simple, effective IP. Admittedly this is
the same as a lone selected space, but it seems to be readily
distinguishable since the user usually knows when something is
selected versus having an IP and s/he can easily move the IP (or
hit the IP-identification hot key coming up) to check if in
doubt.

To reveal the innermost argument containing the IP, one can turn on dot 8 for the characters in that argument. This is similar to the argument shading used in regular displays. To illustrate this approach, consider the fraction 1/2π, which in built-up form is given by the Nemeth braille string “⠹⠂⠌⠆⠨⠏⠼”. If the IP precedes the 2 in the denominator, the braille display would have “⠹⠂⠌⣀⢆⢨⢏⠼”.

At first the dot 8 in the denominator cells here might be
confusing, but it resolves ambiguities as to whether the IP “⣀” is
inside or outside of a math object. This isn’t a serious problem
with fractions since the fraction start, fraction bar, and fraction
end appear as the explicit braille codes ⠹,⠌,⠼, respectively,
although it’s always helpful to know when the IP is in a math
argument. But consider the quantity *a*², which is given in
Nemeth braille by “⠁⠃⠆”. In Office apps and MathML, superscripts
are represented by two arguments, the base and the superscript. If
the IP precedes the base, is the IP at the start of the base or at
the start of the superscript object? That position is ambiguous
without the dot 8 option. With dot 8, you can tell the difference:
in “⣀⠁⠃⠆” the IP precedes the superscript object, while in “⣀⢁⠃⠆”
the IP is inside the base in front of the “a”. Distinguishing these
positions is essential for unambiguous editing of mathematical
text.

Dot-8 highlighting reveals when the IP is at the start or end of an argument or somewhere in between. But it doesn’t define what kind of argument. To get this kind of information on a braille display, it’s handy to have an IP-identification hot key that flashes the name of the argument containing the IP (or “math zone” if the IP isn’t inside an argument) onto the braille display. This name needs to be localized to the current user language, while the regular braille for the math zone is globalized by nature. For example in English, depending on where the IP is in a denominator, the hot key displays “start of denominator” (⠎⠞⠁⠗⠞⠀⠕⠋⠀⠙⠑⠝⠕⠍⠊⠝⠁⠞⠕⠗), “end of denominator” or just “denominator”. This is more informative than the corresponding math speech, which only announces the kind of argument when the IP is at the end of an argument, or the kind of math object when the IP is at the start of an object. This difference occurs because fine-grained speech needs to say the character at the IP, whereas the math braille display continuously shows the characters around the IP, limited only by the number of display cells.

It might be worth having options to enable/disable dot-8 highlighting according to user preference. Even without the dot-8 highlighting, the user can resolve ambiguities by hitting the IP-identification hot key so some users might prefer to work with the simpler braille display.

Lastly, how do you reveal a math zone? If the IP is inside a math-object argument, the presence of dot 8 is a good indicator. As described in the post Braille for Math Zones, math zones start with “⠸⠩” and end with “⠸⠱”. So, the start and end of a math zone are not ambiguous in math braille. In the Microsoft Office math representation, whether the IP at the start of a math zone is inside the math zone or outside is revealed by shading or the Word math-zone border, since the character position is the same for both cases. Ditto for the end of a math zone. I tried setting dot 8 for all cells in a math zone when the IP is in a math zone, but not inside an argument, but it seems too messy. So hopefully the math zone start and end delimiters will suffice; the user can hit the IP-identification hot key to find out whether the IP is in a math zone.

With these uses of dots 7 and 8 and the IP-identification hot key, you can edit virtually all levels of mathematics using a refreshable braille display in an interoperable way with sighted users. Pretty cool, eh?!

Pearson continues to support the MathJax project as a MathJax Supporter.

Founded in 1844 as a small building firm in Yorkshire, Pearson is the largest education company in the world today. With Pearson School, Pearson Higher Education and Pearson Professional, Pearson’s focus today lies solely on education.

“Pearson is proud to continue our sponsorship of MathJax. The use of MathJax in our digital assessment and instructional content continues to grow.”, says Wayne Ostler, VP Content Systems and Publishing. “We look forward to continuing our work with the MathJax community to improve MathML rendering and accessibility in our digital products”.

“Thanks to our dedicated sponsors like Pearson, we are able to develop MathJax continuously, keeping it the high-quality and universal rendering solution it is today,” comments Peter Krautzberger, MathJax manager. “Pearson’s support and the input from its staff provide us with productive feedback that helps our development.”

The MathJax team looks forward to the collaboration with Pearson, and welcomes their support for the MathJax project.

**About Pearson**

Pearson is the world’s leading learning company, with expertise in educational courseware and assessment, and a range of teaching and learning services powered by technology.

Pearson’s mission is to help people make progress through access to better learning. We believe that learning opens up opportunities, creating fulfilling careers and better lives.

**About MathJax**

MathJax was initiated in 2009 by the American Mathematical Society (AMS), Design Science, and the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics (SIAM) with the aim of developing a universal, robust, and easy-to-use solution to display mathematics on the web. MathJax’s open source JavaScript library provides high-quality display on all browsers and platforms without the need for readers to install plugins or fonts. Using MathJax also enables copy&paste of equations and is compatible with accessibility tools for vision and learning disabilities. The MathJax Consortium is supported by numerous sponsors.

Hi everyone, Below are the minutes from the CG meeting last week. Please note the call to action to comment on https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1339, especially if you are building tools. Best, Peter. # [math on web CG] minutes 2017-06-08 * On the fly agenda * Peter: want to talk about CSS WG thread * Dani: stretchy characters * https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/html5.html * Introductions * Arno: background in software engineering * wrote graphic calculator for Mac, years ago, worked at Apple, Adobe * web platform effort at Adobe * mathlive.io - recent passion project, work in progress * render and editor * TeX quality rendering * easy UI * Dani: added example for stretchy characters * Dani: should the browser be the responsible? * Arno: probably need a math aware font? * Dani: less worried about the font * Arno: but as author, you're going to specify a font * for the stretchy to work correctly, you could scale it * but usual, you need the various pieces in between the stretchy parts * just a stretched Courier brace would be horrible * Dani: to some degree, it works because of font fallbacks * Arno: would be good if the browser could fallback to a math aware font * Dani: browser needs to detect dimensions * Peter: I'd be cautious * Chrome kicked out MML after conflict surrounding stretchy characters * opentype math tables might seem like the right standard but in my xp not enough fonts (perhaps too expensive to make), more problems than solutions from adopting them * default fonts on systems is a faint hope * math tables are font engine, not exposed to CSS * mathjax historically used the TeX approach of piecing together chars, * now switched to transforms to stretchy one char, for v3 we are pursuing an even simpler solution * Arno: tried something similar but issues with alignment * Dani: our solution is also very tricky so looking for simpler solution * Peter: I used to think that perhaps the solution lies in seeing stretchy as fences => therefore CSS border more natural * and also menclose notations * Neil: borders can't do all menclose notations things * Exactly * Dani: I like the border situation * Peter; I actually moved away from that again * But Dani asked what a potential a way might be to get CSS to do something rather than nothing to help and borders might be "something" * Arno: might be a good way to broaden the appeal, to get interest beyond math layout * Dani: one problem with border is that you cannot control the style * e.g., can't control the font * Peter: I moved away from border because I'd expect to the idea would be deligated to "wait for Houdini" * Neil: Houdinin not moving forward? * Peter: it is but I don't think it's a path to native features, much like web components isn't turning out that way. * Peter: on https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1339 * I plan to respond was waiting for next meeting, I will post some MathJax feedback * Neil: is this just baseline or within equations * [the latter, more complex problem] * Peter: CALL TO ACTION leave comments from other implementation * Arno: good idea to relate to wider use case * CALL TO ACTION would be good to find more example * Dani: we should use cases of simple mathematics * Peter: hopefully other math tool implementers chime in * Arno: obviously, you CAN do it with CSS * Arno: CSS will need much broader use case

Added the stretchy examples at https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/html5.html Dani *From:* Daniel Marques [mailto:dani@wiris.com] *Sent:* jueves, 8 de junio de 2017 16:08 *To:* 'Peter Krautzberger'; 'mathonwebCG' *Subject:* RE: [math-on-web] meeting agenda 2017/06/08 Hi Peter, I would like to discuss the stretchy layout with HTML. Last meeting Volker pointed out about some difficulties with HTML 5 because the render engine had to go backwards and that was something not viable with HTML. Dani *From:* Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>] *Sent:* miércoles, 7 de junio de 2017 22:09 *To:* mathonwebCG *Subject:* [math-on-web] meeting agenda 2017/06/08 Hi everyone, Just a quick reminder that we're meeting June 8 at 12:00 Eastern time (GMT-04:00) via appear.in/mathonweb. Given that we skipped 1.5 meetings, let's leave the agenda open. Best, Peter.

Hi Peter, I would like to discuss the stretchy layout with HTML. Last meeting Volker pointed out about some difficulties with HTML 5 because the render engine had to go backwards and that was something not viable with HTML. Dani *From:* Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org] *Sent:* miércoles, 7 de junio de 2017 22:09 *To:* mathonwebCG *Subject:* [math-on-web] meeting agenda 2017/06/08 Hi everyone, Just a quick reminder that we're meeting June 8 at 12:00 Eastern time (GMT-04:00) via appear.in/mathonweb. Given that we skipped 1.5 meetings, let's leave the agenda open. Best, Peter.

I noticed that www-math@w3.org did not copy the link in my previous response. So, I'm hardcoding the link here. Questions was answered here: https://stackoverflow.com/a/44323342/1232087 Thanks. On Friday, June 2, 2017 10:52 AM, saf sied <saf_itpro@yahoo.com> wrote: Answered here. On Thursday, June 1, 2017 11:47 PM, saf sied <saf_itpro@yahoo.com> wrote: Following html page with MathJax javascript displays LaTeX expression as a plain text: (x^2+1). Question: How can we modify it to display it as a plain text: \(x^2+1\) Note: You can copy/paste the following content on a notepad and save it as an `.html` file to test what I'm after. <!DOCTYPE html><html><head><script type="text/javascript" async src="https://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/mathjax/2.7.1/MathJax.js?config=TeX-MML-AM_CHTML"></script></head><body> \(\text{(x^2+1)}\) </body><html>

Answered here. On Thursday, June 1, 2017 11:47 PM, saf sied <saf_itpro@yahoo.com> wrote: Following html page with MathJax javascript displays LaTeX expression as a plain text: (x^2+1). Question: How can we modify it to display it as a plain text: \(x^2+1\) Note: You can copy/paste the following content on a notepad and save it as an `.html` file to test what I'm after. <!DOCTYPE html><html><head><script type="text/javascript" async src="https://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/mathjax/2.7.1/MathJax.js?config=TeX-MML-AM_CHTML"></script></head><body> \(\text{(x^2+1)}\) </body><html>

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