Planet MathML

The Planet MathML aggregates posts from various blogs that concern MathML. Although it is hosted by W3C, the content of the individual entries represent only the opinion of their respective authors and does not reflect the position of W3C.

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Re: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2018/01/18

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Abossolo Foh Guy (guy.abossolo.foh@scientificware.com) • June 22, 2018 • Permalink

 

Hi Arno,

After our short discussion, I continued to work on WebKit support in
JavaFX / OpenJFX.

I posted the Issue (JavaFX OpenJFS and MathML #71 [1]) on the new
OpenJFX GitHub Contributor process and started to work as suggested by
OpenJFX team.

I found and fixed the problem. I'm waiting now to get my pull request
merged into OpenJFX. Some problems still remain but the support of
MathML it's far better than in the previous version. I can now use it in
my own applications. I hope it would interest others developpers.

On the picture, the reference goal TeX is on the left and the MalML
rendering JavaFX/OpenJFX is on the right.

The small application for the test is not simply a web browser it's an
editor (the HTLMEditor of JavaFX/OpenJFX). It can made some edits in
formulas but we can not presently create formula. Many problems have to
be fixed before we can use it. AsciiMath as authoring language seems to
be a good entry point.

Of course one can use only the web browser JavaFX/OpenJFX component
(WebView).

The test is from the Mozilla MathML Torture Test.

I hope to see it in the next OpenJFX release, I really need it.

Best regards. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi Arno, 

Thanks for your answer, 

> ​That's an interesting use case. It might take a while to get there, given that SMS doesn't even support bold text, but a good use case to keep in mind. It might be easier to get support in other messaging platforms before SMS (SMS is tied to telecom standards that are slow to evolve).

By SMS, I mean, to use only its sequence of characters and to display it
in a specific SMS Messenger. I agree with you that telecom standarts are
slow to evolve that's why we need a specific messenger. 

> The status of JavaFX is a bit murky, but OpenJDK might be a way to contribute. I also note that the issue above has 0 votes. Furthermore, the issue seems to be with the MathML support in the host browsers, so really, until the host browsers (Chrome, Safari, IE) support MathML natively, the chances of seeing a fix for this bug are low.

I wrote "JavaFX", but in fact, I mean "OpenJFX" its open source version.
OpenJFX includes a web browser "WebView" built over webkit that's why it
supports MathML. 
(https://docs.oracle.com/javase/9/docs/api/index.html?overview-summary.html)

But I don't understand why with the same webkit version, it works well
on Safari and not on OpenJFX. As suggested by team OpenJFX leader,
(http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/openjfx-dev/2017-December/021113.html)
I tried to see where is the problem, but it's not pure Java and build
OpenJFX is a bit difficult than build OpenJDK. 

> - is the height of the container that needs to be surround by the fence, within certain margins? 
> - if so, use a single glyph representing the fence: U+007d "{" 
> - if the height is above those bounds, create a "stacked" fenced, by putting a glyph at the top U+23a7 "⎧", a glyph at the bottom U+23a9 "⎩", a glyph in the middle U+23a8 "⎨" and for the rest of it, a "repeating" glyph, U+23aa "⎪" (and so on for all the different types of fences)
 Before choosing a way to proceed, I tried to understand how TeX works.
There is several prebuilt sizes of each fence (3 ou 4). TeX first tries
to use these sizes and if it needs hiegher, TeX builts the "stacked"
fenced as you discribed. But what about italic and other orientations !
?
So,I wonder why nobody tried to sent a simple font file with the right
sized glyph draw to the glyph engine (Harfbuzz or other) as TeX but for
each sizes and not only for the first four.
I think that drawing a bracket as a curve is simpliest and economics
than the algorithm that puts glyphs over other glyphs.
That's the way I choose to proceed, I directly draw "{", "(" and "[".
The inconvenience, is that I have to create them by hand and then to
draw them but without use the glyph engine (a bit complicate for me
because I don't know how to built a font file). Fortunately Java can
draw it easily. The advantage, I have got symetric, italic and
horizontal glyphs too, with the same curve.

 Best regards. 

Guy. 
 

Links:
------
[1] https://github.com/javafxports/openjdk-jfx/issues/71





[math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2018/06/21

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • June 22, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Here are the minutes from the meeting on June 21.

Best,
Peter.

# math-on-web CG meeting 2018/06/21

* Present: Peter, Volker, Arno, John, Mike, Neil
  * Regrets: Joanie, Dani

Agenda item a11y TF

  * Peter: not enough ppl here for meeting time discussion, let's do a
doodle?
    * ACTION: Yes
  * Mike: would be interested in lurking in those meetings but don't have
much to say
    * John: +1
  * Peter: I'm always somewhat concerned bc I usually like to include
everyone but if ppl don't have the backgorund trying to be inclusive is hard
  * Volker: but lurkers are fine if it's clear
  * => sounds good
  * Peter: maybe let's put some interests down for the four active ones on
the call?
  * Arno: I'm interested in following up on AIM workshop, ARIA live work etc
  * Neil: at DIAGRAM codesprint had some interesting discussions around
severe dyslexia
    * color, spacing, not fonts (but bolding etc)
    * maybe pushing on display engines or editor folks to think about those
issues
    * e.g., Arno recently allowed to add some extra space which helps
distinguish characters better
    * Volker: didn't catch this was this about SSML?
      * Neil: no, typesetting. It's often too tight for severe dyslexic
        * some things help to distinguish them, e.g., color
        * but increasing spacing might help
      * Mike: like CSS letter spacing
        * Neil: not sure that'll do it.
    * Neil: any interest?
      * Arno: yes
      * Peter: yes.
  * Volker: I'm interested in several things
    * continuing work on SSML with Arno
    * an idea with Raman, creating some abstract styling which you can then
map to concrete styles (CSS, background, voicing, sounds, prosidy)
    * i.e., you'd be doing the rules once (with an abstract "style sheet")
and then map that to something concrete.
    * that might even help with Neil's example just now
    * e.g., capital letters mapped to higher pitch and larger spacing
  * Peter: I'm interested in simple things
    * the lightweight walker prototype out of the AIM workshop
      * getting that to work well
      * talking to ARIA about default walkers for aria tree, grid etc
    * also the AIM workshop idea for alternative braille

agenda topic: TPAC
  * registration is open
  * planning meetings
    * with CSS WG in the works
    * with ARIA in the works
  * I think it's more important
    * Volker: earlier the week would be better for me
  * ACTION: Arno give update on CSS meeting
  * ACTION: Peter give update on ARIA Meeting

reminder: meeting Jun 21

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • June 20, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Just a quick reminder that we're meeting on June 21 at noon Eastern time

Agenda items are listed below -- feel free to add here or later.

Best,
Peter.

[1] https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki#dial-in-information

# Agenda

* restarting the accessibility task force
* TPAC 2018 planning

[MathOnWeb] accessibility task force

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • June 15, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

As per the last meeting, there is sufficient interest in re-starting a
accessibility task force.

If you are interested, please drop me a line so we can coordinate a first
meeting.

Best,
Peter.

[math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2018/06/07

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • June 15, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Here are the minutes from the meeting on June 7.

Best,
Peter.

# math-on-web CG meeting 2017/06/07

* Present: Peter, John, Arno, Joanie, Mike
  * Regrets: Volker, Charles
* Agenda: TPAC, AIM workshop
* Intros
  * Joanie Diggs
    * developer at Igalia
    * a11y implementations in webkit and gecko
    * orca screenreader
    * ARIA Group chair
* TPAC, 2018
  * Lyon
  * CG meeting  Monday, Oct 22, 15:30--17:30
  * 4-5 confirmations
  * book hotel soon
  * registration are open https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/Overview.html
    * ACTION Peter to alert group when it opens up
  * meetings with other group
    * CSS WG
      * Arno: reached out to co-chair
        * Alan very interested
        * still planning their own
        * we should figure out how many of us are there
        * to figure out space
        * main room event Mon/Tue or break-out Wed/Thu
        * ACTION: ping list on tpac attendance
          * have rough estimate NEXT WEEK
    * ARIA WG
      * Joanie: Thu&Fri are ARIA days
        * so more difficult
        * ARIA folks could join the CG meeting
          * but maybe we can get W3C to work something out (more slot etc)
        * Peter: will ARIA be there earlier?
      * Joanie: ad-hoc time on Thursday might be possible
        * if you let us know, then we'll try to accomodate
* AIM workhsop
  * Peter recap
    * [but there will a published report]
    * 20 ppl
    * faculty, tools, screenreaders, publishers
    * "focused unconference", everyday different groups but also continuing
groups
  * John: +1 it was very good
  * Arno: +1
    * how do we follow up?
    * Peter: restart the a11y task force
      * have joint TF with ARIA
    * Arno: and the group itself? Maybe a call?
      * Peter:  mailing list was planned,
        * and of course new workshop next year
  * Joanie: you had a TF? How many?
    * Peter: 5 off the top of my hat
    * J: from ARIA end, I'll still have to sell that it's worth the effort
      * some interests from various ends
      * also autorhing pracitce
    * P: we're mostly interested in broad improvements
  * P: should we start with an informal call before doing formal setups?
    * J: ARIA meeting after this one, it's on the agenda
      * ACTION will update this group

Re: CG Meeting at TPAC 2018

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • June 15, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Now that TPAC registration is open, please ping me again if you know that
you'll make it to TPAC.

Best,
Peter.


2018-05-14 16:44 GMT+02:00 Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>:

> Hi everyone,
>
> As promised in last week's call, we now have a timeslot for our meeting
> TPAC 2018:
>
> Monday, 22 October 2018, 15:30--17:30.
>
> TPAC Registration opens in June -- be sure to book a hotel early. For
> details see [1] below.
>
> If you haven't already, please let me or Dani know if you plan to attend.
>
> Best wishes,
> Peter.
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/Overview.html
>

Fwd: TPAC 2018 registration now open

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • June 15, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

TPAC registration is now open.

Best,
Peter.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Coralie Mercier <coralie@w3.org>
Date: 2018-06-14 14:30 GMT+02:00
Subject: TPAC 2018 registration now open
To: w3c-ac-members@w3.org
Cc: chairs@w3.org, tp <w3t-tpregister@w3.org>


Dear Advisory Committee Representative,
Chairs,
Working Group and Community Groups who signed up to meet (bcc’ed),


Registration for TPAC is now open:

        TPAC 2018
        22 - 26 October 2018
        Cité Centre de Congrès de Lyon
        Lyon, France
        https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/


**Chairs, please be sure to remind participants in your groups to register.
We will seek additional information from Chairs closer to the meeting
regarding audio visual needs and other requests.**

Please read carefully the information below:

------------------------------------------
Registration
------------------------------------------

There is a daily registration fee. The per person, per day fee is:
  Early Bird rate (until 31 Jul): EUR 92 (EUR 110 with VAT)
  Standard rate (until 30 Sep): EUR 135 (EUR 160 with VAT)
  Late/on-site rate (starting 1 Oct): EUR 170 (EUR 205 with VAT)

This year we are creating an Invited Expert Fund to help support Invited
Experts who participate actively in W3C groups and who request financial
support to attend TPAC. We hope attendees recognize the value of supporting
IEs and will agree to a nominal 5% fee addition to the above rates, however
there is the ability to opt out.

As in the past, registration is a two-step process:

1) A WBS form for meeting and dietary information
  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2018/

2) A payment system
  https://www.w3.org/2016/04/payment/tpac.php


For more information about registration fees and the payment system, see:
  https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/Overview.html#registration


Please note that registration is not complete until payment has been made.

------------------------------------------
Accommodation
------------------------------------------

W3C has arranged discount room rates from 20/21 (check-in) until 26 October
2018 September (check-out)
with different hotels.
As usual we strongly recommend you to make hotel reservations before the
end of the summer period.
For booking tips and more information about hotels, see:
  https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/Hotels-Transportation.html


------------------------------------------
Plenary Day 2018 (Unconference)
------------------------------------------

Plenary Day 2018 consists of unconference breakouts for TPAC participants.
  https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2018

We invite attendees to suggest breakout sessions via the wiki:
  https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2018/SessionIdeas


-------------------------------------------
Group Meetings / Advisory Committee Meeting
-------------------------------------------

Group Meetings Schedule: Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday:

  * 08:30-18:00: Traditional Group face-to-face meetings
  * 12:00-14:00: Lunch (each group will determine their lunch time)

This year again we have scheduled the AC Meeting towards the end of the day
from 15:00 to 18:00 on Tuesday and Thursday afternoon. We hope this will
minimize the likelihood of conflicts with group meetings.


------------------------------------------
Remote participation
------------------------------------------

Working/Interest/Business Groups may request telephone access for remote
participants. This year again, we plan to use MIT's webex system.

If you plan to attend the Advisory Committee Meeting remotely, please let
us know on <acregister@w3.org>.

IRC will be available for all meetings.


For any questions, please contact <w3t-tpregister@w3.org>.


With kind regards,
Coralie Mercier, Head of W3C Marketing & Communications


--
Coralie Mercier  -  W3C Marketing & Communications -  https://www.w3.org
mailto:coralie@w3.org +337 810 795 22 https://www.w3.org/People/CMercier/

TPAC 2018 registration now open

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Coralie Mercier (coralie@w3.org) • June 14, 2018 • Permalink

Dear Advisory Committee Representative,
Chairs,
Working Group and Community Groups who signed up to meet (bcc’ed),


Registration for TPAC is now open:

        TPAC 2018
        22 - 26 October 2018
        Cité Centre de Congrès de Lyon
        Lyon, France
        https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/


**Chairs, please be sure to remind participants in your groups to register.
We will seek additional information from Chairs closer to the meeting regarding audio visual needs and other requests.**

Please read carefully the information below:

------------------------------------------
Registration
------------------------------------------

There is a daily registration fee. The per person, per day fee is:  
  Early Bird rate (until 31 Jul): EUR 92 (EUR 110 with VAT)
  Standard rate (until 30 Sep): EUR 135 (EUR 160 with VAT)
  Late/on-site rate (starting 1 Oct): EUR 170 (EUR 205 with VAT)

This year we are creating an Invited Expert Fund to help support Invited Experts who participate actively in W3C groups and who request financial support to attend TPAC. We hope attendees recognize the value of supporting IEs and will agree to a nominal 5% fee addition to the above rates, however there is the ability to opt out.

As in the past, registration is a two-step process:

1) A WBS form for meeting and dietary information
  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2018/

2) A payment system
  https://www.w3.org/2016/04/payment/tpac.php


For more information about registration fees and the payment system, see:
  https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/Overview.html#registration

 
Please note that registration is not complete until payment has been made.

------------------------------------------
Accommodation
------------------------------------------

W3C has arranged discount room rates from 20/21 (check-in) until 26 October 2018 September (check-out) 
with different hotels.
As usual we strongly recommend you to make hotel reservations before the end of the summer period.
For booking tips and more information about hotels, see:
  https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/Hotels-Transportation.html


------------------------------------------
Plenary Day 2018 (Unconference)
------------------------------------------

Plenary Day 2018 consists of unconference breakouts for TPAC participants.
  https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2018

We invite attendees to suggest breakout sessions via the wiki:
  https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2018/SessionIdeas


-------------------------------------------
Group Meetings / Advisory Committee Meeting
-------------------------------------------

Group Meetings Schedule: Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday:

  * 08:30-18:00: Traditional Group face-to-face meetings
  * 12:00-14:00: Lunch (each group will determine their lunch time)

This year again we have scheduled the AC Meeting towards the end of the day from 15:00 to 18:00 on Tuesday and Thursday afternoon. We hope this will minimize the likelihood of conflicts with group meetings.


------------------------------------------
Remote participation
------------------------------------------

Working/Interest/Business Groups may request telephone access for remote participants. This year again, we plan to use MIT's webex system. 

If you plan to attend the Advisory Committee Meeting remotely, please let us know on <acregister@w3.org>.

IRC will be available for all meetings.

 
For any questions, please contact <w3t-tpregister@w3.org>.


With kind regards,
Coralie Mercier, Head of W3C Marketing & Communications


--
Coralie Mercier  -  W3C Marketing & Communications -  https://www.w3.org
mailto:coralie@w3.org +337 810 795 22 https://www.w3.org/People/CMercier/

MathJax v3 beta released

Source: MathJax • June 11, 2018 • Permalink

The MathJax team has been working hard over the past year and a half on a major rewrite of MathJax from the ground up, with the goal of modernizing MathJax’s internal infrastructure, bringing it more flexibility for use with contemporary web technologies, making it easier to use with NodeJS for pre-processing and server-side support, and making it faster to render your mathematics. We have made headway in all these areas and we are pleased to announce the first public beta release of MathJax v3.

Where to Find the Beta Release

The code for the release is available in the beta branch of the MathJax v3 github repository.

Examples of how to use MathJax v3 in web pages are available in the mj3-demos repository. This includes several pre-packaged versions of MathJax for common use cases (e.g., converting TeX to HTML in a web page) that you can link to for your own test pages, along with sample HTML pages that call them, and documentation on how to configure MathJax v3. There are also instructions on how to make your own custom webpacked version of MathJax v3.

Examples of how to use MathJax v3 in web pages are available in the mj3-demos-node repository. These include samples of how to convert a TeX string to an HTML string or to a MathML string, for example.

What’s Included in MathJax v3

This beta version includes two input processors (TeX and MathML) and one output processor (CommonHTML). Other input and output processors (e.g., AsciiMath input and SVG output) will be added in the future.

The current TeX input processor has all the core functionality of the MathJax v2 TeX input, and several of the extensions built in, but some extensions are still to come. For example, \unicode, \bbox, and the color extension are not yet available.

The CommonHTML output implements all the MathML elements that v2 does, but does not yet include support for line breaking (neither automatic nor explicit ones); this will be implemented in a later beta version. Currently, there is no support for characters that are not within the MathJax TeX fonts, but that will be included in the future.

The MathJax contextual menu is not yet implemented.

The ability to customize MathJax through a configuration object, as in v2, is limited at the moment, but see the mj3-demos repository for examples of how this can be done currently. In version 3, this type of customization is handled through building custom packed versions of MathJax, and that is not yet fully documented; again, the demo repository includes examples.

NOTE

Mathjax v3 is in early beta release. Do not use this in production, but please test it and report issues on the MathJax v3 issue tracker!

We are continuing to add more functionality to version 3, and will be releasing additional beta versions as new features become available. So watch this site for more news to come!

Conclusion from ARIA: "Liaison heavily"; no formal joint task force -- yet

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Joanmarie Diggs (jdiggs@igalia.com) • June 07, 2018 • Permalink

Hey all.

I proposed at today's ARIA concall the creation of a joint task force
between the ARIA Working Group and the Getting Math Onto Web Pages
Community Group. The consensus reached, in part due to practicality and
in part due to Process, is that the ARIA Working Group will "liaison
heavily" (to use my staff contact's language) with the Community Group
but not formally create a joint task force at this time.

As for what "liaison heavily" means from a practical point of view: I
will recruit ARIA Working Group members to join the Community Group and
participate on accessibility matters directly within the Community
Group. Those of us who do participate will periodically update the full
Working Group on progress, issues, possible solutions, etc. If we reach
a point where a Rec-track deliverable is called for, then we need to
decide how to proceed. Options include:

* Do it in ARIA (at which point we'd likely create a task force)
* Do it in some other existing Working Group
* Spawn a new, specific Working Group for that deliverable

So while I'm admittedly a tad disappointed, I don't see any reason why
we cannot do this joint work as planned, but officially 100% under the
umbrella of the Getting Math Onto Web Pages Community Group.

The minutes from today's meeting can be found here:
https://www.w3.org/2018/06/07-aria-minutes.html#item02.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks, and I look forward
to our ongoing collaboration.

--Joanie, on behalf of the ARIA Working Group

Re: reminder: meeting Jun 7

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • June 06, 2018 • Permalink

Correction: the body of the email should also have said "June 7"

Thank to Kevin for catching it.
Peter.

2018-06-06 11:52 GMT+02:00 Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Just a quick reminder that we're meeting on June 6 at noon Eastern time
>
> Agenda items are listed below -- feel free to add here or later.
>
> Best,
> Peter.
>
> [1] https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki#dial-in-information
>
> # Agenda
>
> * TPAC 2018 planning
> * recap and follow-ups from AIM workhsop
>
>
>
>

reminder: meeting Jun 7

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • June 06, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Just a quick reminder that we're meeting on June 6 at noon Eastern time

Agenda items are listed below -- feel free to add here or later.

Best,
Peter.

[1] https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki#dial-in-information

# Agenda

* TPAC 2018 planning
* recap and follow-ups from AIM workhsop

TPAC Schedule - Community Groups

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Alexandra Lacourba (alex@w3.org) • May 15, 2018 • Permalink

[This e-mail is bcc’ed to all public lists of existing W3C Community Groups]

Dear Community Groups,

The draft schedule for TPAC2018 [1] Community Groups meetings on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday is ready.
We plan to open general registration at the beginning of June.
Please send mail before 28 May tow3t-tpregister@w3.org 
<mailto:w3t-tpregister@w3.org?Subject=Re%3A%20TPAC2017%20Schedule&In-Reply-To=%3C85e40d8f-7995-aa79-c90a-fe5ec5afb17e%40w3.org%3E&References=%3C85e40d8f-7995-aa79-c90a-fe5ec5afb17e%40w3.org%3E>  if you would like to request a change to the schedule:

https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/schedule.html

We thank you for your help in that matter.

Best regards,
Alexandra.

-- 
Alexandra Lacourba - Administration             mailto:alex@w3.org
World Wide Web Consortium                       http://www.w3.org
W3C/ERCIM - 2004 route des Lucioles - Sophia Antipolis 06410 Biot - FR
Voice: +33.4.92.38.50.76                                        Fax: +33.4.92.38.78.22

CG Meeting at TPAC 2018

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • May 14, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

As promised in last week's call, we now have a timeslot for our meeting
TPAC 2018:

Monday, 22 October 2018, 15:30--17:30.

TPAC Registration opens in June -- be sure to book a hotel early. For
details see [1] below.

If you haven't already, please let me or Dani know if you plan to attend.

Best wishes,
Peter.

[1] https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/Overview.html

[math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2018/05/10

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • May 14, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Here are the minutes from the meeting on May 10.

Best,
Peter.

# MathOnWeb CG 2018-05-10


* Present: Peter, Mike, Steve, Arno, Volker, Neil
  * Regrets: Charles

* Agenda
  * update on TPAC 2018
  * update on Arno's json proposal
  * updates from CSS TF

* AGENDA: TPAC 2018
  * we got in
  * TFs should think about early appointments
  * Neil: where is it?
    * Lyon, ~Oct20
  * Volker: precise schedule?
    * Peter: comes out next week
  * ACTION Peter email to mailing list
* AGENDA: JSON proposal
  * Arno: walk through
    * http://docs.mathlive.io/tutorial-MASTON.html
    * a JSON format for storing the formula semantic
    * idea is to convert from various formats, outputing as well
    * but intent is not to be an alternative to LaTeX or MathML
    * no guarantee that you can render from it
    * focused on the structure
    * Volker: noticed that binary operators are binary
      * that makes parsing difficult sometimes, depending on parser
      * e.g., a+b+c might have different LHS / RHS depending on how your
parser starts
    * Arno: good point!
      * I'm trying to not have too many cases for encoding so you have
easier decoding
      * more work encoding, less decoding
      * burden on producer since that works is done once, decoding will be
many times
    * Arno: that's why it tries to avoid doing things in many ways
      * of course with addition it's so common, so there's a reasonable
case to have multiple versions
      * can either present + as binary or n-ary add function
  * Neil: equality is also a=b=c=d but here LHS/RHS
    * Arno: yay, feedback!
      * let's look at Grammar=>function
        * some predefined, possible to customize
        * no predefined function for equality
        * but can be customized or added permanently
      * equality is tricky, it means a lot of things (assignment,
definition, equality operators)
        * in sequence, it's not clear what it means
      * but could be clarified with different functions
  * Arno: let's move back a bit
    * => Native Strings
    * JSON AST
      * native strings
      * favoring Unicode
        * in particular imaginary i, not ascii i
      * not favoring mathvariants or xml entities
      * but e.g. U+2102 ℂ is clearly best
        * but hard to input
        * easier with mathvariants
        * Neil: but human input is not the goal, right?
          * Arno: sure
          * Neil so commands or \u should be fine
  * Peter: my only complaint (not to you) is that Unicode decided to
enshrine mathvariants rather than mathematical entities that are
represented by single glyphs (e.g., reals, rationals,)
    * Arno: right. sidesteppgin that issue (at least for now). Otherwise
we'd need dictionaries or some such and that's been tried
  * Arno: => optional keys
    * two representational: latex or mathml fragment for subexpression
      * to ensure visual representation
    * class and styles could also suit this
    * I've found this to be helpful
    * Neil: question on mathml/tex/style
      * optional to clarify how it's displayed
      * e.g., in MathML you could use IDs to connect the two
      * does this lead to exponential explosion?
        * or just partial?
      * Arno: just partial and just for avoiding unclear/non-standard
presentation
      * for example: parentheses. If expression doesn't need it, but you
want it there, you could use this attribute
  * Arno: on the other hand, attaching semantic information
    * e.g., attaching wikidata information c => Q2111 (speed of light)
    * e.g., i imaginary, Complex numbers: Q26851286
    * optional but allows to carry more semantic information
    * allows for more precision
  * Arno: => grammar
    * Basic expression
    * you identify the type of a node by presences/absences of attributes
      * e.g., num
      * JS polymorphism allows for {"num": 1} and 1 being identified
      * native-number can be higher precision
    * ARno: complex number
      * Peter: question: why not nums for re & im
        * Neil: a+bi
        * arno: will think about it.
    * Neil: for high precision, just a string and read in later? Precision
problems?
      * Arno: bigint becomes string
      * also infintiy and NaN (which are not strictly JSON)
  * Arno: if not number, then => symbol
    * index seemed common enough (e.g., subscript for array index)
    * accent (as usual)
    * Neil: some accents are below. This would lead to ambiguity?
      * Arno: right. Assume above since the list so far from Unicode/MML
just have those
    * Neil: index. a_i in sequence an example?
      * Arno: yes. Just convenience
      * Neil: worried about two different representations for the same
thing?
        * Arno: yes. trying to strike the balance
          * try to limit complexity on the decoding
          * might be better to have more simplicity and regularity while
limiting expressivity
  * Arno: => functions
    * for ease, I've split functions and operators
    * name, argument(s), fence, sub, sup, accent
      * sup for inverse
    * Volker: do you always have to have an argument?
      * for writing notation it is common not ot
      * Arno: right. should clarify that it's optional there
    * Arno: some functions included (add, mult)
      * not sure how far to go
      * eg trigonometry (with branch cuts)
      * wikidata might be a better way to be clear on what function you're
after
    * Neil: a bit arbtiraty, what about subtraciton, equality
      * Arno: yes. not commutative thus problem for JSON
      * Neil: brings up weirdness
      * not all operators can be represented as functions?
      * Arno: options are array, so has order
      * Neil: so what's the problem?
       * Arno: e.g., need parentheses (1+2+3 but 1-2-3 you need to know
which order to apply)
* Peter: let's continue next time
  * due to the AIM workshop, that's in **4 weeks**

[math-on-web] CSS TF meeting minutes, 2018/05/07

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • May 09, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Here are the minutes from the CSS task force meeting on May 7.

Best,
Peter.

# MathOnWeb CSS TF 2018-05-07

* Present: Peter, Arno
  * regrets: Dani.
* Arno: that SO example is interesting
  * much like CSS art (eg that portrait going around recently)
  * the question I've been wondering about: where do we draw the line
  * Peter: yeah, I've arguably become more and more radical on this
    * e.g., MathML templating vs HTML templating. Why not use a CSS-based
component?
    * "do you want to use the traditional approach"  always seems to come
down to "OpenType MATH tables or not"? (Which is a problematic technology)
* Arno: I mean something a bit different
  * e.g., where does CSS WG draw the line?
  * where do we draw the line?
  * do we just consider "you can do it" or "you can do it
well/convenient/nicely"?
    * what popular solution works, let's make it better.
* Peter: maybe we should ask CSS WG?
  * I fear their response will always be "just use houdini" (e.g., brace)
* Arno: Houdini is one route
  * but e.g. fences are popular enough, they appear often enough to count
beyond equation layout
  * ie. might fall above the line
  * there's a question of accessibility
    * e.g., a textbook publisher. can we expect them to write or re-use a
Houdini component?
* Peter: I think sooner or later it will be easy enough to write such
components
  * Arno: fair point. Fences, surds etc could become easy enough
* Arno: imagine there was border-glyph (top/left/bottom/right), maybe even
pieces
  * then browser vendors could decide how to implement that
    * e.g., opentype fonts, fallbacks
  * that would make it easier for authoring while not being too strenuous
* Peter: right. as we have more examples, when/how do we find out which
direction we can approach the CSSWG about
  * without implementor buy-in it's hard
* Arno: exactly my starting point
  * [Peter: sorry it took me so long...]
  * so far nothing proved impossible
  * but ease of authoring is
* Peter: I'm thinking the CSS WG might turn around and ask us which tools
are using our approach
  * so convincing these would be next
  * and is hard
* Arno: we could focus on bleeding edge
  * Peter: if we could get people together and primarily work on bleeding
edge, then that would help tooling as well
    * and solutions can convince CSS because our solutions inform their
solution
[off topic discussion about web components]
* Arno: when more people start to look for integrating content, then there
might be more incentive for a broader solution
* Peter: about that nice root trick
  * I like it
  * reminds me of a recent example I built for madruwb
    * hacky Lam drawing but better than what most tools will render
    * fun fact: there's no MATH Tables for this AFAICT
  * Arno: there's actually arabic stretchy unicode
https://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1EE00.pdf
    * but not for lam?
    * Peter: Odd.
* Peter: I don't care about semantics much at this point
  * there's also the feature parity discussion in ARIA land, especially
from components pov
  * we should push for semantics for things we can't express
* recap
  * Arno: figure out where to we want to draw the line
  * Peter: maybe RfCs to the tool maker will help us here
    * ACTION: collecting and organizing the samples we have
  * Arno: we want to avoid the "1 way to do it, so CSS doesn't need to add
anything"
* Peter: just equation layout will never be enough of a use case for
standards
  * Arno: yes. We need more use cases and they exist
  * e.g., TeX authoring by hand is interesting. Making that easier might
find support withB the CSS WG.

[math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2018/04/26

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • May 09, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Here are the minutes from the meeting on April 26.

Best,
Peter.


# MathOnWeb CG 2018-04-26

* Present: Peter, Mike Dworski, Volker, Charles, Arno, Stephen Bosser, Lina
Wu
  * Regrets: Dani, John Pedersen
* intros / new on the call
 * Mike: digitizing books, mostly OCR, PDF book scans, to epub
   * interesrted in MathML to solve this
   * saw Peter's ebookcraft talk, reachd out
  * Charles: with Benetech, working to get math into epub books
    * working on an advanced book with an approach for that
    * we'll be doing widespread testing next month or os
  * Volker: I do math a11y ever since I worked on ChromeVox, integrated
into MathJax, also work there, also speech rule engine
  * Arno: got interested math on the web from editing/authoring, =>
mathlive.io
  * Peter:
* AGENDA: CSS TF update
  * building samples for stretchy fences and enclosures; nice progress
  * work item: indices of general root
  * Charles: what about surd?
    * Peter: main problem there is more the aligment of border top and
square root sing
  * Arno: the zoom in particular
    * might be something to talk to CSS WG about since browser zoom and
rounding there is probably not specified
  * Mike: how is accessibility with roots?
    * Peter: really hard, no reliable way to detect; imho textual
alternative works
    * Volker: and that basic problem remains
      * might look like a fraciton/root but might not be
    * Arno: having multiple representations is probably the way to go
      * have visual (HTML/SVG)
      * alternative representation (MathML, LaTeX, text description)
      * an authoring problem: needs to be captured at authoring time
    * Charles: many publishers just throw in images
      * our Diagrammer project tries to generate multiple formats
      * having the semantic for each of these is something we might have to
look at
      * maybe similar to DPUB ARIA module
* intro: Stephen Blosser & Lina Wu, Michigan State
  * we're working on an authoring tool for LaTeX to MathML
  * collaborative grant to help math profs create text books, handouts etc
for our students
  * ~2000 students, attempting to make it easier for us to produce content
  * one graduate student now at Apple working on a11y (non-visual dev)
    * came through program and we had to do it the hardway
    * re-type them via scientific notebook, convert to MathML
    * then had a locked down computer w/o upgrades so that JAWS+browser
would use it
    * provided Nemeth braille as well
  * Arno: sounds very interesting
    * with mathlive mostly focused on (accessible) editing
    * in the mean time accepted latex input
    * output also mathml, speech text as well
  * Stephen&Liu:
    * tool live at msumathonline.com
    * you can use it
    * would be interested in feedback
  * Volker: looks interesting, usingn MathJax
    * we also have grant with BigTen to get Nemeth into it
    * maybe that's interesting
    * have you looked at pandoc?
      * sounds interesting
    * Peter: how can the gorup help you? and vice versa?
    * Stephen: we want to improve our a11y documents
        * Project with Stephen helps our professors
        * help authors -- first step in universal design -- make alt text
        * have non-visual users access the content directly, without
reprocessing from our end
        * also work with schools in India, Haiti, looking for ways to make
their maths more accessible
        * our objective is to help those blind usres
        * for the group helping the wider Big10
        * see more books would help
        * Charles: we're working on this at Benetech

* AGENDA: TPAC.
  * Peter: do we want time at TPAC?
  * => Yes. (Peter, Volker, Arno, Charles, probably Dani)
  * Oct 20ish

* AGENDA: JSON proposal
  * Arno: I'm refining the proposal from feedback but looking for more
  * Peter: should we have a dedicated meeting?
    * Arno: yes. we can also walk through the proposal

[MathOnWeb] reminder: meeting May 10

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter@krautzource.com) • May 09, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Just a quick reminder that we're meeting on May 10 at noon Eastern time at
the new Google Meet URL [1] (no Google account required, phone dial-in
supported).

Agenda items are listed below -- feel free to add here or later.

Best,
Peter.

[1] https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki#dial-in-information

# Agenda

* update on TPAC 2018
* update on Arno's json proposal
* updates from CSS TF

Re: [MathOnWeb] Accessibile Math

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Steven Benoit (benoit@math.colostate.edu) • April 27, 2018 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Sorry I've not been able to attend the chats so far.  I'll try to make 
the next one.

My contact info:
     benoit@math.colostate.edu
     970-491-0549

I am building an online testing and instruction platform (actually 
rebuilding an existing Java-based platform to use HTML5 only).  I've 
done a Java-based rendering and layout engine for math (including math 
laid out inside of graphs and drawings), and I'm struggling somewhat on 
how to do this well in an HTML-only setting.  I may come down to 
rendering on the server with my current engine, and sending content out 
as images with alt-text, but that seems a real shame.

My general opinion on the matter is that (presentation) MathML does a 
decent job of capturing the semantics of math content, which is what 
HTML is designed to do - leaving the formatting to CSS.  It seems like 
if CSS can't handle MathML, then CSS is fundamentally broken, and work 
needs to focus there.  Rendering with stretchy operators and auto-sizing 
fences is not outrageous - the visual formatting model should be able to 
handle it.  It already renders tables from the inside out, so I'm not 
quite getting why math is so challenging.

I'm looking forward to learning more about the problem and getting ideas 
that can help guide my project in the right direction.

Best regards,
Steve Benoit

Special Assistant Professor
Department of Mathematics
Colorado State University

On 4/26/2018 1:21 PM, Charles LaPierre wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> Great meeting today.  Steve, not sure you saw in the chat there were a 
> number of us who put in our contact information in so we could connect 
> up with you on the work you are doing.  I believe Arno was also 
> looking to connect as well.
> My contact information is below.
>
>
> Thanks
> EOM
>
> Charles LaPierre
> Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
> E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org <mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>
> Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
> Skype: charles_lapierre
> Phone: 650-600-3301
>

[MathOnWeb] Accessibile Math

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Charles LaPierre (charlesl@benetech.org) • April 26, 2018 • Permalink

Hello everyone,
Great meeting today.  Steve, not sure you saw in the chat there were a number of us who put in our contact information in so we could connect up with you on the work you are doing.  I believe Arno was also looking to connect as well.
My contact information is below.


Thanks
EOM

Charles LaPierre
Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>
Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
Skype: charles_lapierre
Phone: 650-600-3301

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