# Planet MathML

The Planet MathML aggregates posts from various blogs that concern MathML. Although it is hosted by W3C, the content of the individual entries represent only the opinion of their respective authors and does not reflect the position of W3C.

## [Minutes] 2015-03-30 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

Source: public-digipub-ig@w3.org Mail Archives • Thierry MICHEL (tmichel@w3.org) • March 30, 2015 • Permalink

Hi all,

The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
dated 2015-03-30 are now available at

http://www.w3.org/2015/03/30-dpub-minutes.html

These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.

Best,

Thierry Michel

________________________________________

Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

30 Mar 2015

[2]Agenda

[2]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Mar/0049.html

[3] http://www.w3.org/2015/03/30-dpub-irc

Attendees

Present
Charles LaPierre (clapierre), Tzviya Siegman (Tzviya),
Karen Myers (Karen_Myers), Nick Ruffilo (NickRuffilo),
Ivan Herman (Ivan), Paul Belfanti (pbelfanti), Thierry
Michel (tmichel), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Brady Duga
(duga), Phil Madans (philm), Ayla Stein (Ayla_Stein),
Michael Miller (AH_Miller), Peter Krautzberger (pkra),
Matt Garrish (mgarrish), Rego Casasnovas (rego).

Regrets
Tim Cole,  Julie Morris, Liza Daly, Alan Stearns, Ben De
Meester, Vlad Levantovsky, Markus Gylling (Markus).

Chair
Tzviya Siegman

Scribe
Nick Ruffilo

Contents

* [4]Topics
1. [5]ARIA DPUB Module
2. [6]Packaging use cases
3. [7]NYC f2f reminder
4. [8]MathML
* [9]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________

<trackbot> Date: 30 March 2015

<ivan> Scribe: Nick

i am here, will scribe/call in 5 minutes, finishing up
something

<ivan> for the time being, there are some issues with zakim:-(

Are you having troubles as well?

<ivan> the zakim bot has died:-(

<brady_duga> zakim has fallen and canâ€™t get up

<Ayla_Stein> D:

<brady_duga> I am unable to dial in

<ivan> brady, you are not the only one:-(

<Ayla_Stein> zakim says no to Monday

<ivan> a reboot is happening in the background

<ivan> :-(

<tzviya> ivan, brady is on now. Are you able to join?

<pkra> reverse-regrets from me -- I could make it after all.

Zakim - you shouldn't drink on sundays, it's not wise

<scribe> scribenick: NickRuffilo

<pkra> dauwhe :-)

<tzviya> minutes
[10]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-dpub-minutes.html

[10] http://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-dpub-minutes.html

Tzviya: "Minutes from last week: please comment/review"
... "Minutes approved"

<tzviya> [11]https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html

[11] https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html

ARIA DPUB Module

Tzviya: "Matt Garish - please walk through the not-yet-working
draft of ARIA dpub module"

Matt: "The big change is that we've gone through and been
tightening up some of the defintions and making them more
broad. They were book-centric, but take for granted that people
had a book/publishing background, so we cleaned that up."
...: "Make things more broadly understood and for a web
audience. Revisited a meaning of the different definitions.
those may be used for prefixes/namespaces"
... "We also started dropping very domain-specific roles.
Assessments terms in the original submission are now removed -
they will be handled in another group in the future. Likewise
it was noted that without those in there, we'll look to take
out others that are too domain specific. Removal doesn't mean
they aren't in future plans, but we want to approach the vocab
in more holistic terms.

"
...: "There are a number of terms that are 'gone' for this
original draft, but they aren't forgotten."
... "General structures that are useful in broad ways.
Landmarks from epub-now was a roadmap into the document -
glossary or index. Aria itself has landmarks which are major
than doing something fast-and-simple we've decided to just
remove it so that we can figure out what is the best way to
solve the issue of landmarks without

conflict/confusion with ARIA."
...: "Still a few issues in the ARIA module, glossterm?
possibly not necessary as it's covered elsewhere. Some generic
naming issue with things like 'help' or 'part' might mean many
things to many people, so we're looking for a better term."
... "Subtitle/title we're still looking for a way to help
people and use those best. Referrer is the link back from the
content/footnote. Referrer isn't exactly the best thing to call
it, so we're changing the name to locator. These things are
still up for discussion/debate. Ultimately if you can go
through the terms/definitions, but if you want to be thorough,

descriptions and characterstics. Take a look at the super-class
roles."
...: "There's another: Required Owned Elements, and Required
Context Roles - used in Bibliographies and glossaries. The
symantics noted have to occur. Required context role means that
an item must have a parent. Glossary must always have a term,
but a term may not be part of a glossary...""
... "Final to look at is the 'Name from' field. Author or
content. Means that the author has created a label. You're
creating it yourself through an ARIA role. if it's content then
it's actually picking up the text-node of the element. A link
can use the text of the link, but by-and-large you don't want
the entire contents to be picked up - for example, an entire
chapter."

Tzviya: "first draft mid-april. if you have comments, reach
out. Issues are meant to be commented on and the issues need to
be resovled."
...: "Feedback VERY welcomed. Looking at the spec might be
confusing if you are not familiar with the ARIA docs. if you

Bill: "Part issue - You want to get rid of that work. People
think a part is a subset of something, but for books, part is a
container. So there is a definition conflict."

Matt: "Correct - that's what we're working on."

Bill: "I think we should not use part. We should have a
less-ambiguous term that is a 'group' of chapters"

Matt: "Is there a generic ARIA concept for a wrapper?"

Tzviya: "We can achieve that through HTML."

Bill: "You have to worry about the semantics of the sections.
For example units in textbooks"

Ivan: "Many readers of the documents will be people who don't
know the details of ARIA or what it stands for ( should go to
publishers who may not know). Explanations or examples to make
clear what the usage of the various of the aria- attributes :
why are they there, would be very important."

<clapierre> +1 for examples for Publishers
...: "It's more a presentation issue. At the moment the
document is very abstract and I miss this gentle introduction
for those who are not familiar to accessability or ARIA"
... "Human readable documentation would improve things alot."
... "Second question: if I look at the end/appendix. it talks
about XHTML+ARIA DTD and open HTML. HTML 4.1... What happens
with HTML5? "

Tzviya: "Some of this is written by us, some is generated by
PF-Magic. It was generally agreed upon that the PF-magic stuff
needs to be worked on. "

Ivan: "Until that is properly fix, something in the document
should be added about HTML5 - such as 'HTML5 is coming' if you
look at this now, you'll get a huge rejection of people who are
against XHTML, etc."

Matt: "It was picked up from ARIA 1.1, so it needs to be
brought up with them, so we don't fall out of line."

<tzviya>
[12]https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/master/aria/dpub.html

[12] https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/master/aria/dpub.html

Ivan: "To have something that puts ARIA clearly into the domain
of HTML5 - that is a great thing. We also need to ensure all
our documents are adapted to HTML5

Tzviya: "There was an update and there was an announcement that
they want to release ARIA into HTML5"

karen: "Wanted to build on Ivan's comments - we don't want to
educate EVERYONE about accessibility, but if there were a
couple of points - from different perspectives on the
importance of accessibility. Being able to point out some
business cases/value proposition that show support for
accessibility. Put in the Kudos there for everyone who is
committed to this."

Tzviya: "Charles - this overlaps with some of the other work
we're doing in other groups. I'll send an e-mail and copy
matt."

Karen: "i'm happy to talk with charles further about that."

Ivan: "Another editorial/presentation issue: Something in this
document should be said about how these things relate to the
current epub-column-type usage, in longterm and the work done
in edupub. To relate this to existing work that is going on.
Don't want people to be completely worried about what's going
on here."

<tzviya> [13]http://www.w3.org/TR/role-attribute/

[13] http://www.w3.org/TR/role-attribute/

Bill: "Is the role attribute confined by what is being defined
by ARIA, or if a publication can use arbitrary terms within the
role attribute. Obviously if we unplug epub type to the role
attribute."

Tzviya: "ARIA roles are not the only allowed value for roles."

Matt: "Semantics in roles, if they aren't understood, it will
default to its' base."

Bill: "I don't think i'm the only one with that question.
Pearson and O'Reilly debated where to put this information.
They ended up putting things in 'class' when they could have
done it in 'role'."

Matt: "You'd want to make sure that you prefix things so that
they don't get picked up or confused."

Bill: "So, even if you're using role, you'd want to prefix it."

<tzviya>
[14]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory#Packaging_
and_Distribution

[14]
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Directory#Packaging_and_Distribution

Packaging use cases

Tzviya: "Started to put together some use cases for packaging.
All the cases don't address the basics but they are packaging
requirements required to workflow. Requirements of publishing a
journal with a dataset; annotations (which borders on having an
annotations requirement) and how peer-review will factor into
the publication itself. Share resources - such as CSS files -
the publication

should be able to tap into those shared-resources and make the
the user should be able to access just the abstracts. In
would recognize what is new content VS existing content, which
...: "I think Matt is planning on adding more basic use-cases
we'll be happy to review them."

Ivan: "What is the roadmap with these use-cases? I think the
idea would be that we have to see whether these use-cases make
it into the use-case collection that Yves was talking about a
few weeks ago on packaging."

Tzviya: "When we have more use-cases we'll share them with Yves
and go from there."

Ivan: "So we should share these use-cases on the list and have
disucssion."

<tzviya> nickRuffilo: is a DRM use case allowed?

<tzviya> tzviya: i think it would be OK to explain that
allowing a hook for encryption is a good use case

Bill: "I'm on a campaign to discuss Rights Metadata within the
package. Publishers need to be able to denote rights to
specific items within a package. So the big question - how do
we associate rights with different components of the package,
and how do we get publishers to specify that information."
... "For example - photo metadata could be provided in
different items within

Charles: "A couple things - under accessibility use cases
Then a few questions on personalization."

Tzviya: "Accessibility use-cases have been up for a while, but
you're welcome to update/add at any time."

Ivan: "The technology that shall not be named/mentioned - it is
a use-case that we need to think about and compare with what
the technology is. That said, and my impression is - if I look
at the current packaging specification, or if I look at this;
it is not an issue in the sense that it is a technical problem.
Adding a part that is the rigth metadata is a key description
of the encryption

of the content. All of these things are fairly trivially doable
within the packaging. They are use-cases that can possibly be
fulfilled by the current packaging. I don't think the goal is
to encrypt the package itself, just parts of it. The current
spec allows you to do that, as you can add any binary data in
any format or any media type"

bill: "Sounds like I was conflating two issue - Rights & access
information. The other is the actual encryption. we already
have font-obfuscation."

Tzviya: "Fonts are a big issue that we may have to look at"

<tzviya> [15]http://www.idpf.org/epub/previews/

[15] http://www.idpf.org/epub/previews/

NYC f2f reminder

going

<tzviya>
[16]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_D
etails
...: "If there are any specific topics taht you'd like to
discuss, please let us know and comment there so we can
prepare."

[16] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details

MathML

Tzviya: "next week is a European holiday, so no meeting. We
will resume on 4/13

<tzviya> 13/4

April 13th, 2015 to be verbose

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________

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1.140 ([18]CVS log)
$Date: 2015/04/01 14:32:12$
__________________________________________________________

[17] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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e dauwhe david_stroup dkaplan3 dpub https iank joined karen liam mgarris
h mihnea_____ pbelfanti phil_m philm pkra plinss rego scribenick tmichel
trackbot tzviya
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<dbooth> Present+ amy

Regrets: Peter Ben Tim Alan Liza Julie Vlad Markus
Agenda: [20]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015M
ar/0049.html
Found Date: 30 Mar 2015
Guessing minutes URL: [21]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/30-dpub-minutes.html
People with action items:

[20]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Mar/0049.html
[21] http://www.w3.org/2015/03/30-dpub-minutes.html

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## Meeting minutes, 2015-03-23

Source: public-digipub-ig@w3.org Mail Archives • Ivan Herman (ivan@w3.org) • March 23, 2015 • Permalink

The full, technicolor and Dolby Stereo version:

http://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-dpub-minutes.html

The B&W, pedestrian version below:

Ivan

[1]W3C

[1] http://www.w3.org/

Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

23 Mar 2015

[2]Agenda

[2] http://www.w3.org/mid/5509EBBF.1090504@gmail.com

[3] http://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-dpub-irc

Attendees

Present
Charles LaPierr (clapierre), Tzviya Siegman (Tzviya),
Phil Madans (philm), Mike Miller (MikeMiller), Karen
Myers (Karen_Myers), Nick Ruffilo (NickRuffilo), Liam
Kaplan (dkaplan3), Brady Duga (duga), Shinyu Murakami
(murakami), Ivan Herman (Ivan), Peter Krautzberger
(pkra), Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Liza Daly (Liza),
Markus Gylling (Markus), Alan Stearns (astearns), Laura
Fowler (lfowler), Paul Belfanti (pbelfanti), Ben De
Meester (bjdmeest), Dave Cramer (dauwhe)

Regrets
Luc, Heather, Thierry, Julie, David_Stroup

Chair
Tzviya

Scribe
NickRuffilo

Contents

* [4]Topics
1. [5]review on CSS fragments
2. [6]Identifiers
3. [7]latinreq
4. [8]action items in tracker
5. [9]plan face-to-face meetings
6. [10]ePub 3.1 call for functionality
* [11]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________

<trackbot> Date: 23 March 2015

<scribe> scribe:NickRuffilo

<scribe> scribenick:NickRuffilo

!scribenick:NickRuffilo

<tzviya> agenda
[12]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015
Mar/0022.html

[12] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Mar/0022.html

<tzviya> scribenick: NickRuffilo

<ivan> Chair: Tzviya

Meeting begin!

<tzviya>
[13]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015
Mar/0019.html

[13] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Mar/0019.html

Tzviya: "Any comments on the notes from last meeting?"
...: "Minutes approved."

review on CSS fragments

<tzviya> [14]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-break-3/
...: "Next agenda items - review/comments on CSS fragments from

[14] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-break-3/

introduces fragmentaners. Covers page-break, column break,
fragment break, etc. How that works in various situations,
floats, etc. Seems obvious but it's actually alot trickier than
it sounds, so it goes into lots of details. I've posted some
comments. No responses yet, but I just posted them. Overall
spec looks good, tackles difficult

area, and would be great to have it implemented."

Brady: "I'm doing multiple replies, but everything has
CSS-BREAK in the title."

Ivan: "In the WWW Style mailing list, right?"

[15]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/

[15] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/

<ivan> comments on the www-style mailing lis

Liza: "I reviewed it in the context of having implemented
pagination using web technologies (aka terrible hack using
something existing like columns or regions or by hand). For me,
the problems I was looking for this to solve - which is solves
some and not others - such as how to break up complex object
like tables. There are some rules on how to break out tables.
What I found is that alot of

concept we have at Safari, in which this spec doesn't address,
is with placed elements like images, video, and movable blocks.
So if you were making print-layout, you would deal with widows,
orphans, images by making the page smaller and dealing with
those cases individually. Certain kinds of content wouldn't
find this solution particularly attractive as it would still
wouldn't work wonderfully

for highly disjointed content. Images, widows, captions, etc."
...: "This won't solve those issues, but it will solve lots of
other complex layouts. Most of publisher content will still not
make publishers feel like pagination is a solved problem."

Brady: "I agree with that. It does not handle the dynamic
reflow you want when dealing with pagination. Unfortunately I
don't quite understand how tables break if you're breaking
within a table-row. Easy to break within the boundaries, but
not sure how a page has multiple page-breaks"

Alan: "I believe multiple-page-breaks is trying to address
that. The section on parallel flows. Examples may not be
sufficient or explicable, so feedback on that would be
wonderful. Spec is just on how things are layed out, but
nothing on how fragment containers are adjusted. Interesting to
see if resizing monolithic elements within a container is
possible within break opportunities. It

tries to deal with widows/ophans and captions in check. You can
have breaks prohibited between paired items. Only issue is when
the two items are unable to fit within the unbreaked
container."

Liza: "Surprised to see lots of examples where the page size
varied from page-to-page. It would describe the behavior if the
pages were extremely varied different sizes. Only time I would
see something like that in real-life publishing is if a page
went from portrait to landscape."

Alan: "Happens more in magazines when you go from full-page to
column-based layouts. Most of CSS assumes you have a particular
length to work in."

Identifiers

<Bill_Kasdorf>

Bill: "I can be brief: Thanks to Tzviya and Ivan we've made
great leaps forward. The Wiki (link above) has a good group of
people signed up, but more are welcome. What Tzviya contributed
was a great start on a background section. Earlier, Ivan
started to develop a strategy around how we would identify
identifiers that are specific to media types. Just use them,
don't define them. Secondly

identifiers that get you into the package/some place within the
in there."
...: "I will see if Tzviya/Ivan have anything to add."

Tzviya: "I think we may just want to outline the goal of the
TF."

Bill: "The overarching goal is identifiers in general for ebup
web. Identifying the publication will be messy, so lets first
recommend to the W3C refinements to the existing spec or some
other solution that gets us where we need to get. Now we need
to identify fragments as that will be important to annotations
and other sections of

publishing."

Tzviya: "Ideally we take an existing spec with no changes,
IDEAL world..."

<Zakim> liam, you wanted to mention xpointer framework

Bill: "Thats the thing we've identified. Noting what is needed
and hopefully we find that is already out there and the diffs."

Liam: "We have a framework for XML document called XPOINTER
where you name a scheme - cfi or xpath, that is probably worth
looking at as it provides you the ability to define what you're
pointing at and the pointing mechanisms."
...: "People have been doing it for 20 years which is fairly
robust to changes/namespaces"

Ivan: "In a sense, my view is that XPOINTER is something we
should - of course - use as a black box, as well as all the
other fragment identifiers for different media types. Because
they are there and we should not reinvent the wheel. What is
unique is that we have a package and we have to find a way to
get into the package. To all the various schemes in the
background, only CFI and those

that are in the package, are those that are too be reviewed,
critisized, etc."
...: "What both do is start with the package, then identify the
document within the package. The 2nd step is to go within the
document which is in the package. The CSI doesn't do a really
good job because they also specify the fragment into the HTML
document, which should be left to the XPOINTER. The goal is to
get to the document when starting within a package. I have
tried to collect the

requirements for having such a mechanism. Whether those
requirements are the right ones, or if there are others to be
looked at, that is something we need to find together. For
example: My understanding of CFI is that actually it can go
through several documents from the package. From the Package
you can get to HTML, then to an object, then to something else.
So it hops through steps before

getting to a media type, something that the package identifier
does not do."
...: "Not sure this is a requirement for the publishing
industry or not. If it is, it is something we need for the web
packages. CFI doesn't lose any of the fragments. My preferences
would be to rely on fragment identifiers."
... "That would be a way for us to focus on what is specific."

tzviya: "part of it has to do with how we get inside the
package, which is dependent on HOW we structure the package..."

Ivan: "Indeed. the CFI and package fragment take a different
part simply because the package is different. But they do the
same thing."

Markus: "Two things. First - when it comes to fragments - we
have many simple questions to ask. Given the HTML document that
is part of the package. I want to define something that is a
text-fragment, is there a way for me to do that today? What are
the things we would need to do to allow that? That's pretty
straight-forward, but we need to list the requirements but we
need to list the stuff

that we would want to identify."

mgylling: "I wanted to - in terms of ultimate goal - which
pertains to fragments, paths, and identifiers, it isn't just
about packages. If you look at it from the whitepaper, it
shouldn't matter if the package is an archive or exploded and
online. If I create a URI, that URI should look the same no
matter what the publication is (archive or online) which is an
important thing to remember moving

forward. If we don't get there, we will end up reinventing
things with different syntax, but we've painted ourselves into
a corner. We shouldn't have syntax based off a state of the
publication."

Ivan: "we have to deal with the most specific one - identifying
something within one document; The classical fragment issue.
Must have a clear idea on what our requirements are on this
term. What I'm saying is that we should at least try."

<tzviya> me/ hi, dave - still on fragIDs, already did CSS
fragments
...: "If it is an xpointer scheme we haven't implemented yet,
ok, but we need to reply on it. The fundamental approach should
be - whatever possible, rely on existing fragment IDs. This is
one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum is
identifying a BOOK or a document. Which is about giving an
identifier. This is complicated because it isn't a fragment,
it's in the Identifier

world, which is messy. There is something in between which is a
different set of requirements. "

Bill: "I thought we were going to have a TF call? Should we
have the call, or have the discussion via e-mail?"

Tzviya: "Conversation started on the list, then schedule a
call."

latinreq

<tzviya> [17]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/

[17] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/

Dave: "update is that there isn't much to update. Where do we
go from here? Prince is using it as a blueprint for book
products to try to increase the value of that PDF forematter. I
would love to add/flesh out more too it, but not sure what I
welcome!"

Nick: "What is latinreq?"

Dave: "How page layout should be done in western languages.
Inspired by JLreq - spec for japanese. What do they do for
...: "Alot of this stuff has not been written down anywhere.
Just been the oral traditions of typesetters and composition
people. For the web/electronic documents, been trying to write
it down."

Markus: "What happened with JLReq - it was completed,
finalized, then the editors retired. Do you see latinreq as a
living rec that will not go that path? Or should we maintain
the idea of completeness/final?"

<tzviya> [18]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/

[18] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/

Dave: "I have no intention of ending things. So I think of it
as a living thing. I would like it to keep evolving and getting
bigger/better."
... "Edits will ebb/flow, based on the community and people who
are willing to help. In this case, I don't want to declare
victory and go home. I feel like there is much more."

Tzviya: "There were some areas we would hope there would be
work with other communities, such as STEM. We might find the
results of Peter's survey we might have additional information,
such as equations, etc."

<pkra> +1

Dave: "We'll take contributions in any forms. Sketches,
examples, etc. I'll do the formal writing, but I need
feedback/input"

Alan: "Liza brought up something with fragmentation spec - how
publishing deals with fitting monolithic content into
fixed-size page. There might be useful notes in latinreq about
how such content fits within it's containers."

Tzviya: "Page-break-inside, etc. Sometimes it works, sometimes
it doesnt."

Alan: "Based on the aspect ratio, the caption could be on the
left, right, a different page (the facing page, etc)... Lots of
things that happen around the placement of captions relative to
images."

Tzviya: "Another issue we discussed is tables. Not sure we
offline."
...: "When the header is on an angle, but the body content is
normal. Timetables are often done like that."

Tzviya: "if you have exmaples of wacky content, Dave can write
it up."

action items in tracker

<ivan> action-21 ?

<trackbot> action-21 -- Peter Krautzberger to Publish first
draft of stem use cases and pain points summary -- due
2015-02-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/21

[19] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/21

Peter: "We are deferring this..."

tzviya: "We need to prioritize. Peter has too many action
items."
...: "Will this come out of the STEM survey?"

Peter: "Yes."
... "Survey going out this week, so we'll be able to do this
after that."

<ivan> action-27?

<trackbot> action-27 -- Peter Krautzberger to Compare mathml
tables with html, and write it up on a wiki page -- due
2015-03-19 -- OPEN

<trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/27

[20] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/27

Peter: "I have done some work, but it hasn't been completed.
Can we just push this? I need to do some stuff for the math
working group. The STEM survey has my priority."

Tzviya: "Do you want to bring this task to the Math working
group and have them do this?"

Peter: "Yes."

<ivan> action-31?

<trackbot> action-31 -- Karen Myers to Initiate business use
case -- due 2015-01-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/31

[21] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/31

Tzviya: "We'll change this to 'by the math working group'"

<ivan> action-34?

<trackbot> action-34 -- Peter Krautzberger to Send stem survey
-- due 2015-01-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/34

[22] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/34

weeks. Wnat it by first week in april"

<ivan> close action-34

<trackbot> Closed action-34.

<ivan> action-42?

<trackbot> action-42 -- Ivan Herman to Find someone to review
i18n web page -- due 2015-01-15 -- OPEN

<trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/42

[23] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/42

<ivan> close action-42

<trackbot> Closed action-42.

<ivan> action-43?

<trackbot> action-43 -- Tzviya Siegman to Dpub to read i18n
documentation from epub perspective for gap analysis -- due
2015-01-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/43

[24] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/43

<ivan> close action-43

<trackbot> Closed action-43.

<ivan> action-44?

fleshing out the pagination use cases -- due 2015-01-19 -- OPEN

<trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/44

[25] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/44

<ivan> close action-44

<trackbot> Closed action-44.

<ivan> action-45?

personalization use cases -- due 2015-02-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/45

[26] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/45

something to do on 45

<brady_duga> I forgot it existed - sorry

<ivan> action-46?

<trackbot> action-46 -- Tzviya Siegman to Contact the html wg
for a working definition of footnote -- due 2015-02-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/46

[27] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/46

<ivan> action-47?

<trackbot> action-47 -- Thierry Michel to Create new wiki for
identifiers tf -- due 2015-03-02 -- OPEN

<trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/47

[28] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/47

<ivan> close action-47

<trackbot> Closed action-47.

<ivan> action-48?

<trackbot> action-48 -- Peter Krautzberger to Gather font
metric info from the mathwg for houdini -- due 2015-03-09 --
OPEN

<trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/48

[29] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/48

<pkra> Sorry I dropped off the call.

<pkra> This was actually two items.

<pkra> a) use case of font metrics for MathJax / MathML
polyfilling

Tzviya: "Hoping peter can get in touch witht he Match working
group"

<pkra> b) talk to MathWG about other use cases.

<dauwhe> Link for Houdini Font Metrics spec:
[30]http://dev.w3.org/houdini/font-metrics-api/

[30] http://dev.w3.org/houdini/font-metrics-api/

<pkra> a) I have started on

<pkra> b) I will bring up on the next call with the MathWG.

Tzyiva: "Is there anyoen else who can help peter with this?"

<tzviya> thanks, Peter - is 4 weeks enoughs?

<pkra> tzviya yes, 4 weeks will do it.

plan face-to-face meetings

<tzviya>
[31]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_
Details

[31] https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details

Tzviya: "we have May meeting scheduled for 26th May, NYC.
coming. We would like to start planning the agenda."
packaging."

Markus: "Rather than just having reports, which we do on these
calls. So bigger topics such as packaging."

the new york area, please show up. It's the time for IDPF and
BEA. Information for hotels is there. Book early."
...: "TPAC? in Sopporo Japan. We are supposed to respond to a
questionnaire. Organizers need to know if we're going."

<ivan> TPAC: Week of the 26th of October, Sapporo

Ivan: "I think the TPAC meeting is a little different than the
previous. Going through the TF reports we can do elsewhere.
What was very useful in the last one was to talk to a number of
other groups. That would be one of the main reasons that having
the meeting there would be important, even though I realize not
many people will show up. Having our voice heard is important.
Other things we

should try to do is we have unfortunately only a few people
from east-asia in the group and this is a chance for their
voices to be heard."

<tzviya> [32]http://www.w3.org/2015/11/TPAC/
...: "Also good to get a japanese/east-asian perspective. We
should give a slightly different view on the meeting and try to
have it."
... "IETF meeting there as well previous, so Heather may be
there as well."

[32] http://www.w3.org/2015/11/TPAC/

ePub 3.1 call for functionality

Markus: "In the next 2 months, the IDPF is collecting
suggestions for the upcoming epub 3.1 revision. Which will be
proposed in May, and kickoff in the summer/end of year. 3.1 is
first revision that IDPF is running in the lifetime of Digital
Publishing WG and since the relationship and desire for
convergence. That said, 3.1 is not the new big epub web, but an
increment to the existing."
...: "There is an opportunity, even though it can't be
dramatic, to propose features/change requests based on our
work. If you're interested in coming up with such
proposals/suggestions, feel free to contact me."

Ivan: "Typical case - something that may come back to bill - if
you take a look at the document that the Metadata group
produced, there are very specifically things that we say "The
open web platform has the technologies to do this. The DPUB WG
may not use these technologies yet. These are the things that
may come to this."

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________

Minutes formatted by David Booth's [33]scribe.perl version
1.140 ([34]CVS log)
$Date: 2015/04/01 14:32:12$

[33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[34] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704



## Making math on Wikipedia more awesome | an interview with Moritz Schubotz

Source: MathJax • March 20, 2015 • Permalink

Moritz Schubotz maintains the MediaWiki Math Extension

We haven’t done one of these in ages! Here’s our fifth interview with interesting people in the MathJax community. This time we had the pleasure to talk to Moritz Schubotz (Technische Universität Berlin) about math on Wikipedia.

You are the volunteer lead on MediaWiki’s Math Extension. Can you tell us a little bit about the Math Extension?

The Math Extension is the MediaWiki component responsible for rendering mathematical expressions. In order for Wikipedia editors to enter formulae they will need to employ the MediaWiki LaTeX dialect texvc.

The original extension version “Math 1.0,” forced users to select from one of several rendering options and required administrators to configure and install Math extension dependencies, which was rather time consuming. In the latest version “Math 2.0” the new MathML rendering mode provides “robust, scalable, fast, and accessible math rendering for Wikipedia” and also supports private wikis. Furthermore, it no longer requires any configuration by either administrators or users. It uses a new rendering backend, which can be hosted on a different server. In our Mathoid paper, Gabriel Wicke and I explain why this new rendering mode is preferred.

Can you tell us a little bit about your background and the history of the project?

After having completed my Diplom (equivalent to a Master’s degree) in Physics, I started my PhD studies in Computer Science with a focus on Math Search. Since Wikipedia contains most of the Mathematical World Knowledge and the articles are written in a quite uniform, continuously improving language and style, the Wikipedia corpus is a great corpus to test new search and information retrieval methods. Since neither PNG images nor the TeX source are suitable for math search, I changed the math to output MathML as well. As a hobby project, I kept working on the Math Extension, in order to contribute to Wikipedia and transform my research prototype into production software.

The Wikipedia community can be challenging given the different groups involved (Wikimedia Foundation, MediaWiki community, and the Wikipedia editors). What has your experience been like?

First and foremost I have to state that every employee of the Wikimedia Foundation (and its chapters) that I have met have been extremely helpful and friendly. However, the Foundation is a fast growing organization with an extraordinarily huge and heterogeneous community with different interests. While I wish that one employee would be assigned to do code review for the Math Extension once in a while, I have to respect the Funds Dissemination Committee decision not to fund math search related efforts. My volunteer predecessors who tried to take care of the Math Extension before I joined resigned at some point in time since their proposed improvements did not end up in the production system. In contrast to them, I’m in a more comfortable situation to have two individuals, Frédéric Wang and Gabriel Wicke who are enthusiastic about conducting code reviews on a volunteer basis.

How have the responses to the new Math Extension been so far? Any surprises?

No, no surprises. The new rendering looks different, i.e., the specification for spaces and font sizes in MathML (that’s the new output) are slightly different from TeX. That people discuss which version looks better was therefore expected. Furthermore, there are some bugs that have been discovered. But I think this is normal when a new feature is launched on Wikipedia sized websites.

What are your near and long term plans for the future of MediaWiki Math Extension?

The near future plan certainly is to enable the new rendering mode for unregistered visitors as well. Before we can do that some issues need to be resolved. I think there are good chances that this will happen in 2015.

Are there any other projects of yours people should keep an eye on?

There is also the MathSearch Extension, but this is still a research prototype. However, even today this extension indexes all formulae in your wiki, provides a search interface and tries to automatically infer identifier semantics from the surrounding text contents. For those who may be interested, have a look at demo demo.formulasearchengine.com.

## hollingberry/texmath-ruby · GitHub

Source: mathml - Google Blog Search • Offeryour.com • March 19, 2015 • Permalink

texmath-ruby - Convert math markup between LaTeX, MathML, and OMML using Ruby.

## Re: mstack and south carries

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (NeilS@dessci.com) • March 17, 2015 • Permalink

Again, I concur with David. After a fix for a crash (MathPlayer 4, public
beta 2 will have the fix), I get what David indicated.

Neil

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:07 AM, David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> wrote:

> On 17/03/2015 09:48, Daniel Marques wrote:
>
> <mstack>
> <mscarries><mn location="s">1</mn></mscarries>
> <mscarries location="s"><mn>2</mn></mscarries>
> <mn>3</mn>
> <mn>4</mn>
> </mstack>
>
>
>  Then,
>>
>> .
>>
>> .
>>
>> 3
>>
>> 2
>>
>> 1
>>
>> 4
>>
>> Where the dots ‘.’ are used only to indicate some amount of vertical
>> space.
>>
>> Is that correct?
>>
>>
>
> No. the first is unaffected by the location attribute of the second row.
> It is positioned _as if_ the second row had location="n".
> so it is positioned above the first real row 3
>
>   % where 2 would have been with location=n
> 1 % south of where 2 would have been
> 3 % first normal row
> 2 % south carries on row 3
> 4 % second normal row
>
>
>
> David
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________
> _____________________________
>
> The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England and
> Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is:
>
> Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom.
>
>
>
> This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Microsoft Office 365.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________
> ______________________________
>


## Re: spec reading: semantics elements and styling

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org) • March 17, 2015 • Permalink

FYI this particular example was resolved
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1131000 (i.e., Gecko and
MathJax align again though further issues have been spotted).

Peter.

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Peter Krautzberger <
peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org> wrote:

> > We could add it to the tracker, even better we could actually do it:-)
>
> I was hoping the former would help ensure the latter but yes, let's get
> started. Where/how should we set it up? (I'd like to finish my other items
> before getting into a new one though.)
>
> Peter.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 12:50 PM, David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 14/01/2015 11:41, Peter Krautzberger wrote:
>>
>>> Yes. Can we add this to the WG tracker?
>>>
>>
>> We could add it to the tracker, even better we could actually do it:-)
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>


## Re: mstack and south carries

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • David Carlisle (davidc@nag.co.uk) • March 17, 2015 • Permalink

On 17/03/2015 09:48, Daniel Marques wrote:

<mstack>
<mscarries><mn location="s">1</mn></mscarries>
<mscarries location="s"><mn>2</mn></mscarries>
<mn>3</mn>
<mn>4</mn>
</mstack>

> Then,
>
> .
>
> .
>
> 3
>
> 2
>
> 1
>
> 4
>
> Where the dots ‘.’ are used only to indicate some amount of vertical space.
>
> Is that correct?
>

No. the first is unaffected by the location attribute of the second row.
It is positioned _as if_ the second row had location="n".
so it is positioned above the first real row 3

% where 2 would have been with location=n
1 % south of where 2 would have been
3 % first normal row
2 % south carries on row 3
4 % second normal row

David

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is:

Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom.

This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Microsoft Office 365.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


## RE: mstack and south carries

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Daniel Marques (dani@wiris.com) • March 17, 2015 • Permalink

Thanks for the responses but we are not done!

Assuming that both rows off carries are at south.

<mstack><mscarries><mn location="s">1</mn></mscarries><mscarries

location="s"><mn>2</mn></mscarries><mn>3</mn><mn>4</mn></mstack>

Then,

.

.

3

2

1

4

Where the dots ‘.’ are used only to indicate some amount of vertical space.

Is that correct?

In addition,  south carries move the rows the necessary amount of vertical
space in order to do not overlap (the row with the ‘4’ has been moved two
rows below). Do you agree?

Dani

*From:* neil.soiffer@gmail.com [mailto:neil.soiffer@gmail.com] *On Behalf
Of *Neil Soiffer
*Sent:* lunes, 16 de marzo de 2015 22:14
*To:* David Carlisle
*Cc:* www-math@w3.org
*Subject:* Re: mstack and south carries

I concur with David's reasoning.

Neil

On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 9:12 AM, David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> wrote:

On 16/03/2015 16:02, Daniel Marques wrote:

Hi all,

The MathML specification allows specifying carries at south positions.
In this case, when other rows of carries exists it is not clear how the
formula must be rendered.

For example, in the following formula

<mstack><mscarries><mn>1</mn></mscarries><mscarries
location="s"><mn>2</mn></mscarries><mn>3</mn><msline/><msrow/></mstack>

What’s is the expected rendering?

1

3

2

Or maybe

1

3

2

?

Dani

personal response but the spec says

> the first row of carries annotates the second (following) row as if

so the position of the 1 isn't affected by the fact that the 2 has
location=s, it is positioned as if the 2 had location=n so just above
where that would have been.

But it goes on to say

> This means that the second row, even if it does not draw, visually
uses some (undefined by this specification) amount of space when displayed.

so the exact amount of space below the 1 is implementation defined.

David

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England and
Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is:

Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom.

This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Microsoft Office 365.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


## Re: mstack and south carries

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Neil Soiffer (NeilS@dessci.com) • March 16, 2015 • Permalink

I concur with David's reasoning.

Neil

On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 9:12 AM, David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> wrote:

> On 16/03/2015 16:02, Daniel Marques wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> The MathML specification allows specifying carries at south positions.
>> In this case, when other rows of carries exists it is not clear how the
>> formula must be rendered.
>>
>> For example, in the following formula
>>
>> <mstack><mscarries><mn>1</mn></mscarries><mscarries
>> location="s"><mn>2</mn></mscarries><mn>3</mn><msline/><msrow/></mstack>
>>
>> What’s is the expected rendering?
>>
>> 1
>>
>> 3
>>
>> 2
>>
>> Or maybe
>>
>> 1
>>
>> 3
>>
>> 2
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Dani
>>
>>
> personal response but the spec says
>
> > the first row of carries annotates the second (following) row as if
> the second row had location="n".
>
> so the position of the 1 isn't affected by the fact that the 2 has
> location=s, it is positioned as if the 2 had location=n so just above
> where that would have been.
>
> But it goes on to say
>
> > This means that the second row, even if it does not draw, visually
> uses some (undefined by this specification) amount of space when displayed.
>
> so the exact amount of space below the 1 is implementation defined.
>
> David
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________
> _____________________________
>
> The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England and
> Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is:
>
> Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom.
>
>
>
> This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Microsoft Office 365.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> ____________________________________________________________
> ______________________________
>
>


## Re: template namespace attribute proposal

Source: public-webapps@w3.org Mail Archives • Benjamin Lesh (blesh@netflix.com) • March 16, 2015 • Permalink

> Could you post the specific regression you ran into?

Specifically this was around platform development. Let's say I have my
developers (those that use my platform) all define their templates in
<template/> tags. This is used for all components, including components
that are partials or are "composable"... One specific example is this:

<my-graph domainx="0,100" width="200" domainy="0,100" height="100">
<my-line data="0,1 1,1 2,2 3,3 4,4 ... snip ... 100, 100"></my-line>
</my-graph>

- the shadow root of <my-graph> has an <svg> element that contains it's
"content" (which also doesn't work well in SVG).
- the shadow root of <my-line> has a <path> element.

So we'd *hope* that you could define the templates for the above (roughly)
as follows:

<template id="my-graph">
<svg>
<content/>
</svg>
</template>

<template id="my-line">
<path />
</template>

This, of course, is broken all over the place.

1. Last I checked (6 months ago), <content/> is an SVGElement, not an
HTMLContentElement.
2. template#my-line has a content with a single HTMLUnknownElement,
meaning trying to use it purely as a document fragment is broken.
3. As the platform author, there is no way for me to know that the
developer intends template#my-line to be an SVG fragment so I can at least
polyfill a solution for them automatically

As a platform author, a namespace attribute would enable me to easily
identify the developer's intent so I can polyfill the behavior before the
browser even supports it.

The idea of having <template> "just work" with SVG without some sort of
attribute like this seems like pie in the sky, and worse, it doesn't give
me an immediate way to solve the problem other than checking the
firstElementChild.tagName of every template and praying developers know the
edge cases like <a/>. Even if it's implemented in every browser, the
developer would still need to know the edge cases. With an attribute, the
developer just needs to know that they're dealing with SVG or not.

On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Austin William Wright <aaa@bzfx.net> wrote:

>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Benjamin Lesh <blesh@netflix.com> wrote:
>
>> For my part, I disagree slightly with this statement. If you just drop a
>> <circle> tag in a <div>, you're going to get an HTMLUnknownElement. This is
>> by design and to spec, of course. But it unfortunately means you can't
>> clone() the element over to an SVG parent and hope it will work.d
>>
>
> Could you post the specific regression you ran into? The behavior you
> describe should only true for text/html parsing; it doesn't apply to DOM
> and application/xhtml+xml.
>
> For instance, given an arbitrary, conforming HTML document containing an
> SVG circle element, this should work:
>
> var svgns = 'http://www.w3.org/2000/svg';
> var c = document.getElementsByTagNameNS(svgns, 'circle')[0].cloneNode();
> document.getElementsByTagName('body')[0].appendChild(c);
> document.getElementsByTagName('body')[0].lastElementChild.namespaceURI ==
> svgns; // true
>
> text/html just isn't cut out for the sort of complex stuff we're
> discussing. For instance, what if I want to start using the proposed
> application/api-problem+xml format? You can't. text/html simply isn't built
> for the complex features being proposed. This is made explicit in HTML5:
>
> The DOM, the HTML syntax, and the XHTML syntax cannot all represent the
> same content. For example, namespaces cannot be represented using the HTML
> syntax, but they are supported in the DOM and in the XHTML syntax.
> Similarly, documents that use the noscript feature can be represented using
> the HTML syntax, but cannot be represented with the DOM or in the XHTML
> syntax. Comments that contain the string "-->" can only be represented in
> the DOM, not in the HTML and XHTML syntaxes.
>
>
> There's a craptonne of XML based markup languages and file formats out
> there. We can't just keep importing all of them into HTML every time we
> decide one of them might be useful to embed inside HTML. THERE is a
> usability and complexity nightmare.
>
> Explicit is better than implicit, so I like the idea of a namespace
> attribute element, it is forward-compatible with future vocabularies we may
> wish to use.
>
> Namespaces aren't *that* hard to understand. In my code above, I added one
> line declaring the namespace (var svgns). Is that really so hard? If you
> want to use the more advanced features of HTML, use namespaces, or import
> whatever vocabulary I want - DocBook, OpenDocument, music notation, XSL,
> without worry of collision. That's what they're there for, and at least a
> handful of client-side libraries already do this, e.g. <http://webodf.org/
> >.
>
> (Certainly much simpler than, say, the parsing differences between script,
> style, pre, and attributes, which I only understand well enough to know to
> stay the cuss away from putting user content in script tags. The amount of
> inconsistency and complexity of text/html parsing is single-handedly
> responsible for most of the XSS injections I come across. This isn't just
> matter of having a feature or not, this is a matter of security... why not
> fix *this*? /rant)
>
> I understand the URI may be too much for people to grok, maybe instead use
> a tag name ("html", "svg" or "mathml"):
>
> <template namespace="svg">
>   <circle cx="10" cy="10" cr="10" />
> </template>
>
> The application/xhtml+xml parser would simply ignore the namespace
> attribute, using xmlns on children instead. Polyglot HTML would use both
> attributes.
>
> If two separate attributes is too much, then just add xmlns= support to
> text/html.
>
> Austin.
>


## Re: mstack and south carries

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • David Carlisle (davidc@nag.co.uk) • March 16, 2015 • Permalink

On 16/03/2015 16:02, Daniel Marques wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> The MathML specification allows specifying carries at south positions.
> In this case, when other rows of carries exists it is not clear how the
> formula must be rendered.
>
> For example, in the following formula
>
> <mstack><mscarries><mn>1</mn></mscarries><mscarries
> location="s"><mn>2</mn></mscarries><mn>3</mn><msline/><msrow/></mstack>
>
> What’s is the expected rendering?
>
> 1
>
> 3
>
> 2
>
> Or maybe
>
> 1
>
> 3
>
> 2
>
> ?
>
> Dani
>

personal response but the spec says

> the first row of carries annotates the second (following) row as if

so the position of the 1 isn't affected by the fact that the 2 has
location=s, it is positioned as if the 2 had location=n so just above
where that would have been.

But it goes on to say

> This means that the second row, even if it does not draw, visually
uses some (undefined by this specification) amount of space when displayed.

so the exact amount of space below the 1 is implementation defined.

David

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## mstack and south carries

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Daniel Marques (dani@wiris.com) • March 16, 2015 • Permalink

Hi all,

The MathML specification allows specifying carries at south positions. In
this case, when other rows of carries exists it is not clear how the
formula must be rendered.

For example, in the following formula

<mstack><mscarries><mn>1</mn></mscarries><mscarries
location="s"><mn>2</mn></mscarries><mn>3</mn><msline/><msrow/></mstack>

What’s is the expected rendering?

1

3

2

Or maybe

1

3

2

?

Dani


## Re: Remaining errors in unicode.xml (http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-entity-names/)

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • David Carlisle (davidc@nag.co.uk) • March 15, 2015 • Permalink

On 15/03/2015 10:30, David Carlisle wrote:
> Thanks, fixed those in latest checkin. The ? was I suspect showing some
> doubt about that character and I note that U+2A5E was added at Unicode
> 3.2 which looks very similar and unicode-math assigns \doublebarwedge
> giving the new name \vardoublebarwedge to U+2306.
>
> I've just removed the ? for now, but I wonder if the AMS entry should
> align with unicode-math. I'll check with Barbara how she aligns the AMS
> name to STIX.

Confirmed with Barbara Beeton, the STIX mapping of AMS names does use
2A5E here so I moved the <AMS> entry to that. (No change in the
mathml/html entity definitions)

David


## Re: Remaining errors in unicode.xml (http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-entity-names/)

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • David Carlisle (davidc@nag.co.uk) • March 15, 2015 • Permalink

On 14/03/2015 14:29, Frédéric WANG wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I don't know if there has been progress regarding the fixes to
> unicode.xml, but I still see two obvious errors in the AMS set:
>
> For U+21CE: <AMS>\nleftrightarrow</AMS> (should be an uppercase L as
> for other sets and similarly to U+21CD ; note that this is different
> from U+21AE) For U+2306: <AMS>\doublebarwedge ?</AMS>  (question mark
> should be removed)
>
> Thanks,
>

Thanks, fixed those in latest checkin. The ? was I suspect showing some
doubt about that character and I note that U+2A5E was added at Unicode
3.2 which looks very similar and unicode-math assigns \doublebarwedge
giving the new name \vardoublebarwedge to U+2306.

I've just removed the ? for now, but I wonder if the AMS entry should
align with unicode-math. I'll check with Barbara how she aligns the AMS
name to STIX.

David


## Re: template namespace attribute proposal

Source: public-webapps@w3.org Mail Archives • Austin William Wright (aaa@bzfx.net) • March 15, 2015 • Permalink

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Benjamin Lesh <blesh@netflix.com> wrote:

> For my part, I disagree slightly with this statement. If you just drop a
> <circle> tag in a <div>, you're going to get an HTMLUnknownElement. This is
> by design and to spec, of course. But it unfortunately means you can't
> clone() the element over to an SVG parent and hope it will work.d
>

Could you post the specific regression you ran into? The behavior you
describe should only true for text/html parsing; it doesn't apply to DOM
and application/xhtml+xml.

For instance, given an arbitrary, conforming HTML document containing an
SVG circle element, this should work:

var svgns = 'http://www.w3.org/2000/svg';
var c = document.getElementsByTagNameNS(svgns, 'circle')[0].cloneNode();
document.getElementsByTagName('body')[0].appendChild(c);
document.getElementsByTagName('body')[0].lastElementChild.namespaceURI ==
svgns; // true

text/html just isn't cut out for the sort of complex stuff we're
discussing. For instance, what if I want to start using the proposed
application/api-problem+xml format? You can't. text/html simply isn't built
for the complex features being proposed. This is made explicit in HTML5:

The DOM, the HTML syntax, and the XHTML syntax cannot all represent the
same content. For example, namespaces cannot be represented using the HTML
syntax, but they are supported in the DOM and in the XHTML syntax.
Similarly, documents that use the noscript feature can be represented using
the HTML syntax, but cannot be represented with the DOM or in the XHTML
syntax. Comments that contain the string "-->" can only be represented in
the DOM, not in the HTML and XHTML syntaxes.

There's a craptonne of XML based markup languages and file formats out
there. We can't just keep importing all of them into HTML every time we
decide one of them might be useful to embed inside HTML. THERE is a
usability and complexity nightmare.

Explicit is better than implicit, so I like the idea of a namespace
attribute element, it is forward-compatible with future vocabularies we may
wish to use.

Namespaces aren't *that* hard to understand. In my code above, I added one
line declaring the namespace (var svgns). Is that really so hard? If you
want to use the more advanced features of HTML, use namespaces, or import
whatever vocabulary I want - DocBook, OpenDocument, music notation, XSL,
without worry of collision. That's what they're there for, and at least a
handful of client-side libraries already do this, e.g. <http://webodf.org/>.

(Certainly much simpler than, say, the parsing differences between script,
style, pre, and attributes, which I only understand well enough to know to
stay the cuss away from putting user content in script tags. The amount of
inconsistency and complexity of text/html parsing is single-handedly
responsible for most of the XSS injections I come across. This isn't just
matter of having a feature or not, this is a matter of security... why not
fix *this*? /rant)

I understand the URI may be too much for people to grok, maybe instead use
a tag name ("html", "svg" or "mathml"):

<template namespace="svg">
<circle cx="10" cy="10" cr="10" />
</template>

The application/xhtml+xml parser would simply ignore the namespace
attribute, using xmlns on children instead. Polyglot HTML would use both
attributes.

If two separate attributes is too much, then just add xmlns= support to
text/html.

Austin.


## Remaining errors in unicode.xml (http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-entity-names/)

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Frédéric WANG (fred.wang@free.fr) • March 14, 2015 • Permalink

Hi all,

I don't know if there has been progress regarding the fixes to
unicode.xml, but I still see two obvious errors in the AMS set:

For U+21CE: <AMS>\nleftrightarrow</AMS> (should be an uppercase L as for
other sets and similarly to U+21CD ; note that this is different from
U+21AE)
For U+2306: <AMS>\doublebarwedge ?</AMS>  (question mark should be removed)

Thanks,

--
Frédéric Wang
maths-informatique-jeux.com/blog/frederic



## Re: template namespace attribute proposal

Source: public-webapps@w3.org Mail Archives • Benjamin Lesh (blesh@netflix.com) • March 12, 2015 • Permalink

> So much of the rest of how SVG/MathML are handled in HTML is seamless by
design. For my part, I disagree slightly with this statement. If you just
drop a <circle> tag in a <div>, you're going to get an HTMLUnknownElement.
This is by design and to spec, of course. But it unfortunately means you
can't clone() the element over to an SVG parent and hope it will work. This
was a problem in Angular's \$compile that I helped sort out. Angular would
simple clone() partials straight from the DOM and insert them, if that
partial happened to be some fragment of SVG, you were then sticking
HTMLUnknownElements in your SVG Doc. Ultimately, Angular ended up tracking
namespace changes as it traversed the DOM looking for directives, as well
as specifying a starting namespace for directives with template strings
that were SVG partials.

Ember and Handlebars had similar issues with this. Handlebars had to use a
wrapMap technique to create DOM elements in the proper way, but that didn't
account for the <a> tag which exists in both namespaces. I'm not sure what
HTMLBars is doing to solve this problem, honestly. I'd be shocked if
whatever they were doing didn't require some sort of namespace
specification somewhere, or simply didn't work with certain edge cases like
the <a> tag.

I think this feature is really something that will help framework
developers and component library developers create generic code to
accommodate their needs. It's more for code sanity than anything.

<template><svg><circle/></svg></template> will clearly work, but then
you're putting the onus on the framework authors to make conditional checks
that might not always be accurate "is the firstElementNode svg?" If I'm a
framework author, I can't dependably check that and just assume it's an SVG
partial. It could be a full SVG-based web component.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Anne van Kesteren <annevk@annevk.nl> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Adam Klein <adamk@chromium.org> wrote:
> > Is your thinking that adding special-casing for SVG-"looking" (as in, tag
> > names appearing in the list of SVG tags but not in the list of HTML tags)
> > inside <template> has fewer compat risks than a wholesale change of the
> HTML
> > parser to recognize SVG-looking tags anywhere?
>
> It was more principled, not sure about compatibility. Most of the HTML
> parser depends on modes. Then requiring <svg> makes sense. Just like
> it "makes sense" to require <table> for <td> not to be dropped.
> However, <template> was designed to work with any element,
> irrespective of mode. So <td> should work without <table> anywhere.
> Following that logic, it would make sense if <circle> worked without
> <svg> anywhere.
>
>
> --
> https://annevankesteren.nl/
>


## RE: template namespace attribute proposal

I would also prefer to enable this to work without any extra annotation. So much of the rest of how SVG/MathML are handled in HTML is seamless by design.

Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 11:17 AM
To: Benjamin Lesh
Cc: WebApps WG
Subject: Re: template namespace attribute proposal

On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 8:32 PM, Benjamin Lesh <blesh@netflix.com<mailto:blesh@netflix.com>> wrote:
I'd like to propose that the <template> tag have a namespace="" attribute that allows the user to specify namespaces such as "http://www.w3.org/2000/svg", so that the document fragment that comes from .content is created properly.

e.g.:

<template id="my-svg-template" namespace="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg>
<circle cx="10" cy="10" cr="10"/>
</template>

For clarity, is this significantly different from the below (which works today)?

<template id="tmpl">
<svg>
<circle .../>
</svg>
</template>

Clearly there's an extra step here, in that accessing the SVG elements requires hopping into firstElementChild, but adding new namespace-related features seems unfortunate.



## Re: template namespace attribute proposal

Source: public-webapps@w3.org Mail Archives • Dimitri Glazkov (dglazkov@google.com) • March 12, 2015 • Permalink

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:13 AM, Robin Berjon <robin@w3.org> wrote:

> On 12/03/2015 11:07 , Anne van Kesteren wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:32 AM, Benjamin Lesh <blesh@netflix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What are your thoughts on this idea?
>>>
>>
>> I think it would be more natural (HTML-parser-wise) if we
>> special-cased SVG elements, similar to how e.g. table elements are
>> special-cased today. A lot of <template>-parsing logic is set up so
>> that things work without special effort.
>>
>
Love this idea.

>
> Or even go the extra mile and just slurp all SVG elements into the HTML
> namespace. There are a few name clashes, but we ought to be able to iron
> those out.
>
> And ditto MathML.

Not sure what the timeline would look like for this work. I guess this
would depend on whether there's existing content counting on namespaces
being different?

:DG<


## Re: template namespace attribute proposal

Source: public-webapps@w3.org Mail Archives • Robin Berjon (robin@w3.org) • March 12, 2015 • Permalink

On 12/03/2015 11:07 , Anne van Kesteren wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:32 AM, Benjamin Lesh <blesh@netflix.com> wrote:
>> What are your thoughts on this idea?
>
> I think it would be more natural (HTML-parser-wise) if we
> special-cased SVG elements, similar to how e.g. table elements are
> special-cased today. A lot of <template>-parsing logic is set up so
> that things work without special effort.

Or even go the extra mile and just slurp all SVG elements into the HTML
namespace. There are a few name clashes, but we ought to be able to iron
those out.

And ditto MathML.

--
Robin Berjon - http://berjon.com/ - @robinberjon


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