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[CSSWG] Minutes Tokyo F2F Wed 2017-04-19 Part IV: Box Alignment, display:contents, Containment, Interpreting url()s [css-align][css-contain][css-values][css-masking]

Source: www-style@w3.org Mail Archives • fantasai (fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net) • May 27, 2017 • Permalink

=========================================
   These are the official CSSWG minutes.
   Unless you're correcting the minutes,
  Please respond by starting a new thread
    with an appropriate subject line.
=========================================


Flexbox & Alignment
-------------------

   - Browsers were interested in fixing the partial implementation bugs.

CSS Display
-----------

   - RESOLVED: Make <br> and <wbr> not display with display:contents
   - RESOLVED: Strip <button> and treat as normal content
   - RESOLVED: display:none the <meter> and <progress> elements when
               display:contents is specified
   - RESOLVED: display:none for <canvas> <applet> <embed> and
               <object> when display:contents is specified
   - RESOLVED: SVG elements <g>, <use>, nested <svg>, and <tspan> are
               eliminated and their contents are hoisted under
               display:contents but all other SVG elements are
               display:none'ed
   - TabAtkins and fantasai will propose wording to solve Issue 1118:
       Should anonymous boxes always inherit through the box tree?

CSS Alignment
-------------

   - RESOLVED: Change bottom margin edge to bottom border edge
               wrt floor on last baseline of scrollable boxes.

CSS Contain
-----------

   - RESOLVED: Size replaced elements as if intrinsic size was zero
               and no aspect ratio.
   - RESOLVED: Layout containment makes you a fixed-position
               containing block for abspos children.
   - RESOLVED: Level 2 for single-axis layout containment
   - RESOLVED: WONTFIX issue 1043 this level, explain why
              (Explanation: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1043#issuecomment-295276243)
   - RESOLVED: 'display: contents' causes 'contain' values to be
               ignored except style containment
   - RESOLVED: Update WD of css-contain with edits for issues we
               resolved today.

CSS Values / CSS Masking
------------------------

   - Tentative resolution: mask-image distinguishes element reference
     vs image reference via local vs external reference in url();
     final resolution pending dbaron's investigation of Gecko code
     [See Friday's resolution for final resolution.]

CSSOM
-----

   - RESOLVED: USVString for href attributes on stylesheet and
               cssimportrule

===== FULL MINUTES BELOW ======

Agenda: https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tokyo-2017#topics

Scribe: myles

Flexbox
=======

   topic: Partial implementations of space-evenly in grid but not flexbox
   github topic: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1167

   Florian: We need people from blink and WebKit here.
   Florian: The "alignment" properties apply to all layout modes.
   Florian: The spec describes how to do this, but browsers don't
            follow.
   iank: Are there bugs?
   Florian: These browsers support the keywords on flex box but not
            grid.
   Florian: You can't use @supports because the browsers do "support"
            the value.
   Florian: They shouldn't have shipped it.
   myles: We will not un-ship it.
   TabAtkins: It's easy to fix. We will probably fix it.
   myles: We, WebKit, are regretful that we shipped it and want to
          fix this.

   shane: Are there issues?
   Florian: Yes
   Florian: You could also just provide a better fallback if you want.
   shane: We have an old patch which gets us at least partway there.
          We can pick it up.
   shane: People are responsive.

CSS Display
===========

   <TabAtkins> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-display/#unbox-html
   TabAtkins: We all agreed that replaced elements and proper form
              controls are display none when you set display:contents
              on them.
   TabAtkins: There are some more HTML elements where it's not clear
              how we should treat them.
   TabAtkins: ^^^ list.
   TabAtkins: Chrome people have opinions.

<br> and <wbr>
--------------

   TabAtkins: Next up: <br> and <wbr>
   TabAtkins: They are magical today. They should be display:none.
   TabAtkins: Our policy is not to make up things without use cases.
              We are trying to come up with the most reasonable
              outcome.
   <general confusion>
   fantasai: They should do their thing and ignore display:contents
   fantasai: No strong opinion.
   TabAtkins: But display:contents always makes the thing go away.
   fantasai: But text doesn't go away.
   tantek: But this isn't like text content.
   <tantek> +1 on TabAtkins proposal
   fantasai: But from a CSS author's point of view, it is.
   fantasai: Jen Simmons raised the issue that <br> turns into a grid
             item and this is bad.
   fantasai: People don't think of <br> as an element.
   TabAtkins: It's easy to run into trouble if you put raw text into
              a flexbox. So we tell authors to put wrappers around
              their text.
   tantek: Agreed.
   <dbaron> That is, Tab was saying you run into the same problem
            with <b>bold text</b> if you haven't used a wrapper.

   Florian: From an implementation point of view, do <br>s have magic
            which is easy to make go away, or is it difficult to make
            it display:none
   fantasai: It's easy to implement.
   astearns: Any objections to just doing display:none?
   <none>

   RESOLVED: Making <br> and <wbr> not display with display:contents

<button>
--------

   TabAtkins: The <button> element.
   TabAtkins: UAs are usually okay with rendering buttons just like
              spans, so display:contents can do the normal thing here
   TabAtkins: but <button> and <input type="button"> are usually
              interchangeable.
   TabAtkins: But it's probably fine. I don't have a strong opinion.

   tantek: <button> and <input type="button"> are pretty different
           though.
   tantek: We should strip off the tags
   fantasai: But it's confusing to an author!
   fantasai: Authors' decisions about which to use is arbitrary.
   tantek: You should strip the tag because it's actually less
           confusing, not more confusing
   tantek: because there is inner elements.
   fantasai: We don't do that for <object>.
   iank: It's like <canvas>.
   tantek: But <button> has different fallback behavior.
   TabAtkins: We should just strip the <button> wrapper and treat it
              as normal content
   <tantek> +1 treat button as a normal element

   RESOLVED: Strip <button> and treat as normal content

<meter> and <progress>
----------------------

   TabAtkins: <meter> and <progress> elements
   TabAtkins: I think they are replaced.
   TabAtkins: The contents of <meter> and <contents> are not
              fallback. Instead, they are just legacy. So we should
              display:none them.
   TabAtkins: It's the same as <video> because the contents are not
              meant to be displayed.
   TabAtkins: It's irrelevant.
   iank: Internally we represent these as form controls.
   TabAtkins: We should treat like form controls.
   fantasai: I'd prefer to show the contents but i won't object.

   RESOLVED: display:none the <meter> and <progress> elements when
             display:contents is specified

  <applet> <canvas> <embed>
  -------------------------

   TabAtkins: 4! <applet> <canvas> <embed> elements
   TabAtkins: When they are showing, they are definitely replaced, so
              it's well-defined. But! (Especially for <object> and
              <applet>) if the thing you're referencing is invalid,
              it's meant it show the stuff inside it.
   TabAtkins: Is it really replaced? Should we strip the wrapper away?
   Florian: <object> has 2 states: 1) it's replaced, or 2) it shows
            its contents
   Florian: If it's not display:none, it's dangerous to authors.
   iank: Usually for <canvas> you put your fallback inside the tag.
   iank: It should be display:none.

   astearns: The goal of display:contents isn't to hide contents.
   iank: Yeah, it'll take the canvas out of the tree and show the
         contents.
   Florian: But we already resolved on that, maaaaaaan.
   All: <object> is kind of different from the others.
   Florian: When the content loads, we've decided that display:none
            works. But otherwise, ?
   tantek: Yeah the load state shouldn't affect stuff.
   tantek and fantasai: but you should show the contents in both
          cases (whether it loaded or not).
   TabAtkins: We have a blanket policy which we can revisit but it is
              a good policy.
   Florian: Both states should do the same. And they should show
            their contents.
   TabAtkins: Yes, they should do the same thing. And the normal
              state should be display:none and therefore both should
              be.

   astearns: Let's not discuss the blanket policy.
   astearns: I want to go with display:none. Does anyone object?

   RESOLVED: display:none for <canvas> <applet> <embed> and <object>
             when display:contents is specified

display:contents on SVG elements
--------------------------------
   GitHub Topic: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/305

   TabAtkins: SVG does not have a box model. It's defined in terms of
              something custom.
   TabAtkins: I'd like to describe SVG in terms of a box model.
   TabAtkins: So we have no idea what to do.
   TabAtkins: SVG currently special cases display:none to say "stuff
              doesn't render"
   TabAtkins: Option 1: All SVG treats display:contents as
              display:none
   TabAtkins: but this isn't great because it is valuable here.
   TabAtkins: <g> and <use> and nested <svg> can be stripped
   fantasai: <tspan> too.
   TabAtkins: Everything else should probably be display:none
   TabAtkins: fantasai: This is consistent with how it works.

   ChrisL: Will people try to use this to implement fallback?
   fantasai: What if you display:contents two nested elements, does
             it cascade?
   TabAtkins: It does cascade, so the innermost text wouldn't render.
   TabAtkins: The root SVG should display:none but inner ones not
              necessarily.
   TabAtkins: If nobody objects, I'll do this.
   astearns: Objections?

   RESOLVED: SVG elements <g>, <use>, nested <svg>, and <tspan> are
             eliminated and their contents are hoisted under
             display:contents but all other SVG elements are
             display:none'ed

MathML
------

   TabAtkins: Everything in MathML should display:none when
              display:contents is specified.
   TabAtkins: We may just .... not care about MathML.

   astearns: Let's take the spec to CR, please!
   fantasai: But we have new issues!!!
   fantasai: So we can't go to CR.
   fantasai: We can fix them up real quick and we'll come back.

Inheritance through 'display: contents'
---------------------------------------
   github topic: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1118

   fantasai: This is a fun test case
   fantasai: There are anonymous boxes in the box tree. We defined an
             anonymous box in the box tree has initial values except
             for the ones which are inherited (from its parent box in
             the box tree). But! When we have display:contents, if
             the parent of the anonymous box, then the element's
             parent is really its grandparent!
   TabAtkins: "parent box" is reasonably well-defined now, but with
              display:contents, not so much.
   <TabAtkins> (Specifically, "parent box" is simple enough, in a
               pre-display:contents world, that we don't have to
               worry much about the fact that it's weakly defined.
               With display:contents, tho, the full box tree starts
               being more relevant, and the weak definition is more
               troublesome.)
   fantasai: What I expect is that we look at the parent box in the
             box tree and we look at the element which generated that
             box.
   fantasai: However, implementations don't look at the box tree,
             they look at the parent element and its properties.
   fantasai: Sooooooo this is busted.

   fantasai: So are these bugs? Or should we update the spec?
   TabAtkins: We should do the latter. Inheritance doesn't pay
              attention to the box tree. The fact that this uses the
              box tree was hand-wavey.
   TabAtkins: <gives example>
              <section> <div>Foo</div>
              </section>
              <section> <div><span>Foo</span></div>
              </section>
              section { color: red;
              }
              div { color: green; display: contents;
              }
   TabAtkins: <explains the example>

   dbaron: There are 2 different distinctions to make (but one may
           not be observable).
   dbaron: Gecko recently changed how anonymous boxes inherit (but
           only for nested anonymous boxes). Previously, if you have
           2 nested ones, one would inherit from the other. Now, all
           nested boxes inherit from the closest real element.
   Florian: Is there an observable difference?
   dbaron: Not to regular users.
   xidorn: What about a writing-mode change on an element with
           display:contents and text inside it?

   astearns: We need to change the spec to match the implementations.
   fantasai: If you have an inline element and its the child of a
             block, then it's the child of the root inline of that
             block. If you remove that inline element, then the
             contents of that inline element (the text) becomes a
             child of the block's root inline. There's no intervening
             box belonging specifically to the text. Now, if we make
             that box go away, there's nothing that is holding the
             properties that apply to the text other than the root
             inline. The root inline's properties apply to the text
             because there's nothing between there.
   fantasai: If you put an inline in between the text and the root
             inline, give it a property, then pull it away with
             display:contents, then it's not in the formatting tree.
             How is it contributing a color when it's gone?
   TabAtkins: Inheritance always follow the element tree.
   TabAtkins: Text doesn't have properties, but it does know things
              like color.
   fantasai: We have to invent this idea of a text frame, and say
             that it has properties, and it's an anonymous object
             which you can't get rid of.
   TabAtkins: We kind of had to do that with selectors already.
   TabAtkins: We say that clicking on raw text correctly triggers,
              even when there are intervening shadows & etc.
   fantasai: It is already a thing, but it doesn't have properties.
             Now we are saying that it has its own properties.
   TabAtkins: Yes, to achieve what all implementations do and what
              makes sense.
   TabAtkins: display:contents shouldn't change inheritance.
   fantasai: Background color does go away when you take away the
             box.
   TabAtkins: In the example in the issue, do you think in the first
              bit that text should be red?
   TabAtkins: Where red is assigned to <section> and green is
              assigned to <div>?
   fantasai: <reads really hard>
   fantasai: I expected div of to take the color of the section, and
             div span foo to take the color of the div.
   TabAtkins: I disagree.
   TabAtkins: I agree with the originator and what implementations do
   TabAtkins: We can work through the implementations to make things
              well-defined.

   astearns: This will be difficult to specify.
   fantasai: It requires inventing a new type of box in the inline
             layout model which we don't have yet.
   TabAtkins: Putting the span in there changes how inheritance
              works, which changes what users see, and this is
              unreasonable. The present of an element shouldn't make
              the color jump over the div.
   Florian: The consequences that a non-styled span changes things is
            scary.
   astearns: Let's table this.

   fantasai: If we make a new box, it belongs in the inline layout
             module, not this module.
   TabAtkins: Let's put all the boxes in display:*
   fantasai: But you can't create it with display:*
   fantasai & TabAtkins: <tries to figure out which modules this
       should go in>

<last baseline alignment discussion part II moved to Minutes Part II>

Selectors
=========
   scribe: TabAtkins

Propagation of the :focus pseudo
--------------------------------
   github topic: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1240

   Florian: This was raised by fantasai a while ago.
   Florian: Topical now because Mozilla and Blink are both
            implementing :focus-within, which depends on :focus, so
            we should make sure we get :focus right.
   Florian: We have wording attempting to say that "whatever magic
            HTML says to make :active propagate (to labeled controls,
            etc), it should apply to :focus too".
   Florian: fantasai says this is either useless or contradicting
            HTML.
   Florian: I think you were saying that the way we phrased it
            doesn't make it clear whether we were placing a
            requirement on the HTML authors to fix this, or
            overriding them and defining it propagates differently.
   Florian: Because in HTML :focus and :active do propagate
            differently.
   Florian: So it's unfortunate if we disagree. Do we yield, or shout
            at them?
   Florian: I think we wrote it this way because there was a parallel
            discussion about whether :focus and :active should
            propagate from a form control to its label *and* vice
            versa; we at least agree that they should both act the
            same.
   Florian: And we just filed an issue on HTML to figure out if it
            should be bidirectional or not.
   Florian: It was bidirectional in IE (not Edge).
   Florian: Given that :focus-within is meant to do the same as
            :focus, and there's no compat baggage, we should put a
            stick in the ground and decide.

   [need more time to think about this, we're dropping the topic for now]

css-contain
===========
   Scribe: fantasai

   Florian: Have a FPWD of css-contain that is well overdue, thus
            close to CR.
   Florian: Have some issues, let's close them.

contain:size on replaced elements
---------------------------------
   github topic: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/382

   Florian: If you 'contain: size' on a replaced element, what should
            that mean?
   dbaron: You get whatever size specified, otherwise zero.

   RESOLVED: Size as if intrinsic size was zero and no aspect ratio.

contain:layout wrt abspos/fixedpos containing blocks
----------------------------------------------------
   github topic: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/404

   TabAtkins: Need to check with Ojan, inclined to accept proposal.
   Florian: Can we resolve and check later?
   TabAtkins: Proposal is that layout containment makes you a fixed
              position containing block for abspos children

   RESOLVED: Layout containment makes you a fixed position containing
             block for abspos children.

   ACTION TabAtkins ping Ojan about this issue
   <trackbot> Created ACTION-847

single-dimension layout containment
-----------------------------------
github topic: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1031

   Florian: Next one from dbaron...
   dbaron: This one is a big issue.
   dbaron: One of the things that a bunch of web devs really want is
           what they call "container queries"
   dbaron: which basically addresses the sub case of teams that
           develop widgets or modules that are part of a bigger page.
   dbaron: They're developing some markup and script and whatever
           that gets included within a bigger page, and it will have
           some size.
   dbaron: The bigger page might use media queries to e.g. switch
           from 3 columns to 2 columns, and widgets gets bigger
           though viewport got smaller.
   dbaron: If you're implementing the widget, you want to respond to
           the size that the widget is, not the size of the viewport.

   dbaron: Bunch of ppl want container queries that actually work,
           rather than do what ppl do right now which is do layout,
           flush, and set styles based on that.
   dbaron: Seems to me it should have some relation to containment-
   dbaron: that is, ability to do container queries should depend on
           some kind of containment so that your insides don't depend
           on your outsides which depend on your insides.
   dbaron: The next point is that sometimes people want to do
           container query on their width, but have an auto height.
   dbaron: So, was thinking we want to have layout containment in
           only one dimension.
   dbaron: Beyond that haven't thought about it, so this is a "please
           design me a feature" issue.
   dbaron: This seems like a relatively high priority feature because
           ppl do this a lot, and do it by doing flush-restyle loops.

   Florian: If they're willing to go that far, using 2D size
            containment is good, set it and then reset your height
            after you do layout.
   dbaron: Get ppl doing it for multiple parts of the page, so cycles
           multiple times.
   fantasai: Why not just have -x -y keywords?
   TabAtkins: Hard to define what that means.
   eae: Maybe sets wrong expectations, that you wouldn't get same
        performance benefits.
   TabAtkins: True, but you do get the benefit that when you're using
              resize observer you get predictable behavior and not
              loops.
   Florian: Seems like level 2, esp. we don't have proposal yet.
   TabAtkins: This plus resize observer plus custom at-rules, I'm
              hoping will allow solving this use case.
   TabAtkins: Been my plan for like 2 years.

   RESOLVED: Level 2

Freezing/unfreezing size containment
------------------------------------
   github topic: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1043

   Florian: Probably better in 1D context, but still applies to 2D.
   Florian: Imagine you have long FB page, infinite scroller, 37
            screens down.
   Florian: Because everything is dynamic, ppl will update stories
            above where you are, which will change your size, which
            will make you scroll.
   Florian: Things that are off-screen should have their size frozen,
            and when they enter the screen you should unfreeze them.
   Florian: So want a variant of size containment that only applies
            offscreen.
   Florian: And then when you scroll in it solves.

   plinss: Sounds like a giant hack that should be solved by scroll
           anchoring.
   iank: FB can also use intersection observer to do this.
   Florian: That ends up being just slow enough that they do resizing
            on-screen (rather than just off-screen).
   Florian: My take is that once we get scroll anchoring a large part
            will be solved, combine with fact that you can do manual
            freezing if you want.
   Florian: But I think this is not something to solve with magic
            freezing and unfreezing.
   fantasai: I agree with the last statement.

   flackr: If you were to drag the scrollbar, we will probably put up
           a frame before we run any script in response to the scroll
           position, so you will see un-resized content.
   Florian: Which is why I'd suggest there was some UI indication
            (like graying out) that indicates out-of-date-ness.
   Florian: Not as good as magic, but dunno how to make that happen.

   Florian: So proposed wontfix.
   astearns: Objections?
   iank: We should also say that we'll keep use case in mind for
         future stuff.
   TabAtkins: But right now solution is use JS intersection observer.
   Florian: And various upcoming features will make it better (though
            not perfect) soon.
   astearns: Can someone add a comment summarizing these conclusions?

   RESOLVED: WONTFIX this level, explain why

Publication
-----------

   Florian: That takes us to zero open issues on css-contain.
   Florian: Modulo DoC, go to CR?
   ChrisL: Changes section?
   Florian: No, should I do that first?
   ChrisL: If you can do it in a reasonable time. Just want to avoid
           "CR pending edits" which takes 9 months.
   tantek: Could update a WD now, and the resolve on CR once you have
           DoC.
   Florian: Question about DoC...
   Florian: Not much happened between FPWD and now, do we need a DoC
            covering comments from earlier.
   ChrisL: Assumption in the Process is that FPWD is actually the
           first *public* working draft.
   Florian: Okay, I'll do DoC over old issues.
   tantek: Is that needed?
   Florian: Need to demonstrate wide review.
   ChrisL: We also need to show usual sec/a11y/i18n reviews.
   Florian: Will show non-trivial DoC, not necessarily comprehensive
            to first ED.

   RESOLVED: Update WD of css-contain with edits for issues we
             resolved today.

   [ Note: This section moved over from Thursday ]

   Florian: Issue on combining 'display: contents' and 'contain'.
   Florian: My suggestion is no effect for everything except for
            style containment.
   dbaron: The other way to do it is that containment sometimes
           changes display, e.g. can blockify it.
   dbaron: Could say that contain property wins
   dbaron: and makes your display go away.
   fantasai: Making 'display: contents' “goes away” is problematic,
             what does it then become?
   SimonSapin: What’s the blockification of display:contents?
   dbaron: Block?

   dbaron: I'm okay with what Florian said.
   dbaron: Though I think some ppl might have intuition that
           containment should win.
   Florian: Seems like an error to me. Do the simple thing.

   RESOLVED: 'display: contents' causes 'contain' values to be
             ignored except style containment


Scheduling
==========

   Vlad: TYPO is willing to consider our preferences in terms of
         dates.
   Rossen: Latest is that there is a possibility that next TPAC will
           be ...
   ChrisL: End of October in Lyon is under consideration.
   astearns: Given TPAC is late October, should we aim for early
             April for spring meeting?

Ambiguities in handling url()
=============================
   Github topic: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/383

   <leaverou> relevant TPAC minutes where this was discussed:
              https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2016Nov/0070.html
   TabAtkins: Everybody remembers issue from awhile ago -- it's
              ambiguous whether an URL with a fragment ID is referencing
              an element in the SVG or a pant server /mask whatever
   TabAtkins: Everything is bad, and it's been bad since 2012 when
              issue was first raised by roc.
   TabAtkins: Going forward we wanted to rely on element() vs image()
              functions to make it clear
   TabAtkins: But still need to figure out what to do with url()
              legacy.
   TabAtkins: Unclear whether that should be property-specific,
              language-specific, something else.
   TabAtkins: Looking at TPAC minutes.

   TabAtkins: Some proposals:
   TabAtkins: 1. Treat ambiguous cases as url reference into an SVG
                 document, not treat as image and apply :target
   TabAtkins: 2. Treat ambiguous cases as url, if it has a fragID
                 treat as a reference, otherwise treat as an image
   TabAtkins: 3. Treat ambiguous cases, load it twice -- first see if
                 there's an appropriate reference, otherwise go back
                 and reload as an image
   fantasai: 4. Do something different per property

   * fantasai agrees with TabAtkins's summary that this is all bad.
   plinss: #3 follows Web architectural principles better. Shouldn't
           judge URL by its syntax like in #2.
   Florian: #1 and #4 also don't violate principle.
   plinss: Could be a PNG at the end of a URL. You don't know.
   leaverou: Why would an author use a fragID on a PNG?
   plinss: To crop a section of the PNG.
   plinss: We made image() function to make this unambiguous.
   TabAtkins: On the other hand, implementations really don't want to
              load things twice.

   TabAtkins: Chrome and FF seem to decide on reference vs image
              based on whether it's local fragment vs external
              reference.
   TabAtkins: Could probably just switch on that, and then later
              introduce element() vs image() functions.
   TabAtkins: Might need more info from birtles.
   fantasai: I'm okay with distinguishing based on local vs external
             reference.
   TabAtkins: No browser currently allows external SVG references.
   dbaron: Gecko does in some cases, maybe not in CSS.
   leaverou: Should not assume they never allow external SVG
             references.
   TabAtkins: Yeah, just don't need to consider it wrt web-compat.
   jet: We do for clip-path.
   dbaron: Most ambiguous case is mask.
   dbaron: But I thought we did for clip-path, filter, and mask.

   TabAtkins: Mask is the only one that's troublesome atm.
   TabAtkins: Everyone else can define per property.
   TabAtkins: If a property only takes images, or only takes clip
              paths, not ambiguous.
   TabAtkins: Didn't want to do per-property decision for ambiguous
              cases.
   fantasai: Some of these properties that are currently unambiguous,
             maybe become ambiguous in the future.
   fantasai: So in the future, would be per-property disambiguation.
   fantasai: I think fill/stroke has (or will have) ambiguous cases.
   fantasai: Fill currently takes a paint server reference, but we're
             adding image references, so it will become ambiguous.

   TabAtkins: So when you said you handle external mask references,
              is that just for mask property that only accepts
              external references?
   dbaron: We parse the mask property into longhands, so we would do
           it on mask-image, because that's where it lives.
   TabAtkins: How do you split mask-image into the two different
              cases?
   TabAtkins: afaict, you did it based on whether local or not.
   ...
   TabAtkins: Right now element() and image() have other features,
              which is why were kicked out to L4
   leaverou: Element() somewhat impl in Firefox.
   TabAtkins: We could, though, define them as subset of the
              functionality, i.e. same as url() except without
              ambiguity.

   leaverou: Option 3 is off the table?
   TabAtkins: Yeah, because cost-prohibitive
   leaverou: #2 is only a problem cuz web architecture?
   plinss: Blatant violation of web architecture
   fantasai: What about local ref vs external reff?
   plinss: Not so bad.

   astearns: Sounds to me that 1 is only viable option
   Florian: Well, 1 and 4?
   Florian: We will have to define property by property going forward
   Florian: We do #1 on currently-ambiguous cases, but will have to
            define property by property going forward.
   TabAtkins: E.g. fill/stroke previously unambiguous, becoming
              ambiguous with new fill-stroke spec.
   astearns: So in cases where it could be interpreted as either, it
             will be ?

   TabAtkins: Alternately could make it local vs external, like
              mask-image.
   fantasai: For mask-image, what are the possible things we could
             actually do?
   TabAtkins: Depends on what FF is doing and if compat-required.
   TabAtkins: I think local vs external is def how Webkit/Blink does
              it, and it's how Gecko used to work.
   birtles: Still does.
   fantasai: So sounds like we *have* to do mask-image that way.
   fantasai: Should we resolve on local vs non-local?
   leaverou: Makes sense now because external reference aren't
             possible.
   fantasai: But we will have unambiguous syntax for that.
   leaverou: But by adding a fragID, author made their intent clear.
   TabAtkins: No, they didn't, because e.g. might be using svg stacks
              where fragID is triggering :target
   plinss: Can use a media frag to pull a frame out of an MP4.
   leaverou: ok.

   <birtles> fwiw the Firefox code I'm looking at is
             http://searchfox.org/mozilla-central/rev/214345204f1e7d97abb571b7992b6deedb5ff98f/layout/style/nsCSSDataBlock.cpp#64
             which at least indicates we don't trigger an image load
             if it's a local reference
   <dbaron and birtles investigate Gecko code>
   <dbaron> The point where we actually branch between the SVG vs.
            image-tiling case is in the function PaintMaskSurface in
            nsSVGIntegrationUtils.cpp...
   <dbaron> And as far as I can tell that's just a function of
            whether a pointer is null, which is null as a function of
            whether we managed to find an SVG Mask Element...
   <dbaron> the thing that it's testing for null was set up in the
            constructor nsSVGMaskProperty::nsSVGMaskProperty()

   astearns: First proposed resolution is distinguish these cases on
             mask-image via local vs external reference
   astearns: which matches implementations, as far as we can tell.
   astearns: Any objections?
   dbaron: I'm not sure if that's actually happening. Things are
           fancy here.
   dbaron: Not sure if it matters.

   RESOLVED: mask-image distinguishes element reference vs image
             reference via local vs external reference in url()

   TabAtkins: I'm betting we could apply local vs external globally,
              on account of local hash bg images are broken right now
              anyway, unless your HTML is also a PNG.
   leaverou: What about hashes on data URL? If SVG was in a data URL,
             and has a hash?
   TabAtkins: That's still an external URL as far as loading pipeline
              is concerned.
   leaverou: I suspect that's something I've used...

   astearns: For second instance?
   fantasai: Second instance is now, fill-stroke.
   astearns: Maybe wait until we have more info?
   astearns: e.g. dbaron figuring out gecko code.

   xidorn: Person who implemented mask-image says we do check if
           target element is mask element after we load the file.
   fantasai: Question is, after you check it and it fails the check,
             what do you do?
   dbaron: I suspect we do two loads.
   plinss: Don't want to require impls to all do hardest least
           performant thing, but don't want to preclude doing it
           correctly.
   astearns: Seems we have to leave this one for now.

   dbaron: Anyone have a technique for making a file that's both a
           valid SVG and a valid PNG?
   Florian: I don't but I know who would.
   dbaron: Might be able to test SVG as SVG.
   Florian: If you need, try p01 on twitter, he makes crazy demos
   dbaron: I think we just need an SVG that's a circle and a mask
           that's a square.

[comments from after the meeting on this topic]
   <dbaron> Here's a test showing that Gecko's distinction is based
            on whether it can find the mask element:
            https://dbaron.org/css/test/2017/mask-url
   <dbaron> The image is here: https://dbaron.org/css/test/2017/
            mask-url-image
   <dbaron> the test links to a mask element that exists, and a
            fragment that doesn't exist.
   <dbaron> The former users the mask in the mask element and ignores
            the mask-size, mask-repeat, etc.; the latter uses the
            toplevel SVG as a mask and honors mask-repeat and
            mask-size
   <dbaron> so the upper test shows a single circle, and the lower
            four rects

CSSOM
=====

   SimonSapin: We have href attribute on stylesheet and cssimportrule.
   SimonSapin: We should be using USVString, because they are URLs
   SimonSapin: Can we resolve to do that?

   RESOLVED: USVString for href attributes on stylesheet and
             cssimportrule

Re: [MathOnWeb] skip meeting this week?

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org) • May 24, 2017 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Given that more people won't be able to make it tomorrow, let's skip this
one.

Best,
Peter.

On May 24, 2017 4:15 PM, "Peter Krautzberger" <
peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Spinning another thread from Dani's message.
>
> Since tomorrow is a holiday in many countries, perhaps we should skip the
> meeting.
>
> Peter.
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Daniel Marques <dani@wiris.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that a F2F would be a great step. We need to do some preparation
>> first, of course.
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW this Thursday I’m not available for the meeting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dani
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Charles LaPierre [mailto:charlesl@benetech.org]
>> *Sent:* martes, 23 de mayo de 2017 18:55
>> *To:* Peter Krautzberger
>> *Cc:* mathonwebCG
>> *Subject:* Re: [MathOnWeb] TPAC 2017 - Book flights and hotel NOW if
>> approved to go
>>
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a plan Peter, would be helpful if this does not coincide with
>> the DPUB WG meetings, not sure if the agenda has been set yet, although it
>> looks like there is a Publishing summit on Thursday and Friday that week.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> EOM
>>
>> Charles LaPierre
>> Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
>> E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org
>> Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
>> Skype: charles_lapierre
>> Phone: 650-600-3301 <(650)%20600-3301>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 23, 2017, at 8:43 AM, Peter Krautzberger <
>> peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>>
>>
>> TPAC is rapidly getting closer and hotel reservations are now open.
>>
>>
>>
>> We should discuss at the next meeting whether we want to submit for a F2F
>> time there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The reservation procedure for the TPAC hotel is now available, and the
>> meeting planners are reminding us to book flights and hotel as soon as
>> possible.
>>
>> Non-stop, round-trip fares from Boston to San Francisco, have gone up
>> over 100 USD since 31 March Prices are expected to increase sharply by
>> June/July. The second largest conference in the country is taking place the
>> same week as TPAC in San Francisco: DreamForce '17.  The TPAC hotel
>> typically sells out 6-7 weeks prior to TPAC; we have a limited number of
>> guest rooms. It is likely that the Hyatt will sell out earlier.
>>
>> Non conference, guest room rates for TPAC week at Marriott and Hyatt
>> Burlingame are nearly 600 USD plus taxes per night.
>>
>> Meeting Overview -- https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/Overview.html
>> Hyatt Reservation Link --
>> https://aws.passkey.com/event/48983943/owner/4566/landing?gt
>> id=e96b0f8312fe5e63725056072d434a8f
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[MathOnWeb] skip meeting this week?

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org) • May 24, 2017 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Spinning another thread from Dani's message.

Since tomorrow is a holiday in many countries, perhaps we should skip the
meeting.

Peter.

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Daniel Marques <dani@wiris.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> I think that a F2F would be a great step. We need to do some preparation
> first, of course.
>
>
>
> BTW this Thursday I’m not available for the meeting.
>
>
>
> Dani
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Charles LaPierre [mailto:charlesl@benetech.org]
> *Sent:* martes, 23 de mayo de 2017 18:55
> *To:* Peter Krautzberger
> *Cc:* mathonwebCG
> *Subject:* Re: [MathOnWeb] TPAC 2017 - Book flights and hotel NOW if
> approved to go
>
>
>
> Sounds like a plan Peter, would be helpful if this does not coincide with
> the DPUB WG meetings, not sure if the agenda has been set yet, although it
> looks like there is a Publishing summit on Thursday and Friday that week.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> EOM
>
> Charles LaPierre
> Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
> E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org
> Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
> Skype: charles_lapierre
> Phone: 650-600-3301 <(650)%20600-3301>
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 23, 2017, at 8:43 AM, Peter Krautzberger <
> peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> TPAC is rapidly getting closer and hotel reservations are now open.
>
>
>
> We should discuss at the next meeting whether we want to submit for a F2F
> time there.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Peter.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The reservation procedure for the TPAC hotel is now available, and the
> meeting planners are reminding us to book flights and hotel as soon as
> possible.
>
> Non-stop, round-trip fares from Boston to San Francisco, have gone up over
> 100 USD since 31 March Prices are expected to increase sharply by
> June/July. The second largest conference in the country is taking place the
> same week as TPAC in San Francisco: DreamForce '17.  The TPAC hotel
> typically sells out 6-7 weeks prior to TPAC; we have a limited number of
> guest rooms. It is likely that the Hyatt will sell out earlier.
>
> Non conference, guest room rates for TPAC week at Marriott and Hyatt
> Burlingame are nearly 600 USD plus taxes per night.
>
> Meeting Overview -- https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/Overview.html
> Hyatt Reservation Link --
> https://aws.passkey.com/event/48983943/owner/4566/landing?gtid=
> e96b0f8312fe5e63725056072d434a8f
>
>
>

RE: [MathOnWeb] TPAC 2017 - Book flights and hotel NOW if approved to go

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Daniel Marques (dani@wiris.com) • May 24, 2017 • Permalink

Hi,



I think that a F2F would be a great step. We need to do some preparation
first, of course.



BTW this Thursday I’m not available for the meeting.



Dani





*From:* Charles LaPierre [mailto:charlesl@benetech.org]
*Sent:* martes, 23 de mayo de 2017 18:55
*To:* Peter Krautzberger
*Cc:* mathonwebCG
*Subject:* Re: [MathOnWeb] TPAC 2017 - Book flights and hotel NOW if
approved to go



Sounds like a plan Peter, would be helpful if this does not coincide with
the DPUB WG meetings, not sure if the agenda has been set yet, although it
looks like there is a Publishing summit on Thursday and Friday that week.









Thanks

EOM

Charles LaPierre
Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org
Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
Skype: charles_lapierre
Phone: 650-600-3301





On May 23, 2017, at 8:43 AM, Peter Krautzberger <
peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org> wrote:



Hi everyone,



TPAC is rapidly getting closer and hotel reservations are now open.



We should discuss at the next meeting whether we want to submit for a F2F
time there.



Best,

Peter.






The reservation procedure for the TPAC hotel is now available, and the
meeting planners are reminding us to book flights and hotel as soon as
possible.

Non-stop, round-trip fares from Boston to San Francisco, have gone up over
100 USD since 31 March Prices are expected to increase sharply by
June/July. The second largest conference in the country is taking place the
same week as TPAC in San Francisco: DreamForce '17.  The TPAC hotel
typically sells out 6-7 weeks prior to TPAC; we have a limited number of
guest rooms. It is likely that the Hyatt will sell out earlier.

Non conference, guest room rates for TPAC week at Marriott and Hyatt
Burlingame are nearly 600 USD plus taxes per night.

Meeting Overview -- https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/Overview.html
Hyatt Reservation Link --
https://aws.passkey.com/event/48983943/owner/4566/landing?gtid=e96b0f8312fe5e63725056072d434a8f

Re: [MathOnWeb] TPAC 2017 - Book flights and hotel NOW if approved to go

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Charles LaPierre (charlesl@benetech.org) • May 23, 2017 • Permalink

Sounds like a plan Peter, would be helpful if this does not coincide with the DPUB WG meetings, not sure if the agenda has been set yet, although it looks like there is a Publishing summit on Thursday and Friday that week.




Thanks
EOM

Charles LaPierre
Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
E-mail: charlesl@benetech.org<mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>
Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
Skype: charles_lapierre
Phone: 650-600-3301



On May 23, 2017, at 8:43 AM, Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org<mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>> wrote:

Hi everyone,

TPAC is rapidly getting closer and hotel reservations are now open.

We should discuss at the next meeting whether we want to submit for a F2F time there.

Best,
Peter.



The reservation procedure for the TPAC hotel is now available, and the meeting planners are reminding us to book flights and hotel as soon as possible.

Non-stop, round-trip fares from Boston to San Francisco, have gone up over 100 USD since 31 March Prices are expected to increase sharply by June/July. The second largest conference in the country is taking place the same week as TPAC in San Francisco: DreamForce '17.  The TPAC hotel typically sells out 6-7 weeks prior to TPAC; we have a limited number of guest rooms. It is likely that the Hyatt will sell out earlier.

Non conference, guest room rates for TPAC week at Marriott and Hyatt Burlingame are nearly 600 USD plus taxes per night.

Meeting Overview -- https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/Overview.html
Hyatt Reservation Link --
https://aws.passkey.com/event/48983943/owner/4566/landing?gtid=e96b0f8312fe5e63725056072d434a8f

[MathOnWeb] TPAC 2017 - Book flights and hotel NOW if approved to go

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org) • May 23, 2017 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

TPAC is rapidly getting closer and hotel reservations are now open.

We should discuss at the next meeting whether we want to submit for a F2F
time there.

Best,
Peter.



The reservation procedure for the TPAC hotel is now available, and the
meeting planners are reminding us to book flights and hotel as soon as
possible.

Non-stop, round-trip fares from Boston to San Francisco, have gone up over
100 USD since 31 March Prices are expected to increase sharply by
June/July. The second largest conference in the country is taking place the
same week as TPAC in San Francisco: DreamForce '17.  The TPAC hotel
typically sells out 6-7 weeks prior to TPAC; we have a limited number of
guest rooms. It is likely that the Hyatt will sell out earlier.

Non conference, guest room rates for TPAC week at Marriott and Hyatt
Burlingame are nearly 600 USD plus taxes per night.

Meeting Overview -- https://www.w3.org/2017/11/TPAC/Overview.html
Hyatt Reservation Link --
https://aws.passkey.com/event/48983943/owner/4566/landing?gtid=
e96b0f8312fe5e63725056072d434a8f

Re: Minutes 2017/05/11- DRAFT

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org) • May 15, 2017 • Permalink

Thanks so much, Kyrce!

Best,
Peter.

On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Daniel Marques <dani@wiris.com> wrote:

> Thank you very much Kyrce!
>
>
>
> Dani
>
>
>
> *From:* Swenson, Kyrce [mailto:kyrce.swenson@pearson.com]
> *Sent:* jueves, 11 de mayo de 2017 19:19
> *To:* public-mathonwebpages@w3.org
> *Subject:* Minutes 2017/05/11- DRAFT
>
>
>
> *Topic:* Layout
>
> *Attendees: *Peter Krauzberger, Daniel Marques, Jean Kaplansky, Volker
> Sorge, Sam Dooley, Charles LaPierre,  Kyrce Swenson
>
> *Scribe:* Kyrce Swenson
>
>
>
> -----
>
>
>
> *Peter: *What can improve and give feedback on layout requirements so
> that other web standards can be influenced by the WG?
>
>
>
> Collect use cases.
>
>
>
> Some contact already with the CSS working group, Including actual issue
> that MathJAX needs to respond to.
>
>
>
> Link in issue to codepen example to sketch out the basic problem: [1] Two
> dimensional content in inline content. Must be aligned with the baseline.
> In CSS only the top or the bottom can be aligned to the baseline.. No tools
> for something like a simple fraction, etc. This example was trying to
> explain this problem. Current solutions all require manual baseline fixing
> and shifts.
>
>
>
> This takes time and adds complexity. We need a way to tell CSS what should
> be at the baseline level.
>
>
>
> *Dani**: *The limits of the technology are MathJAX and we can use MathML
> directly in FF, and there are solutions from Wiris. Be able to do
> mathematics using only html5 + css. We need to be able to tell the CSS
> people to convince them.
>
>
>
> *Peter: *
>
> there's also KaTeX, MathQuill, and a bunch of hobby projects.
>
>
>
> *Peter* identify use cases that are broader than mathematical. Example:
> aligned SVGs inline because they had some textual content. Wanted to align
> the text not the image  [2]
>
>
>
> Little chance that this will be something only math needs. These
> challenges are interesting in a general sense as well.
>
>
>
> *Volker: *Right now we are talking about vertical growth not ascenders
> and descenders growing. More serious problem: Left to Right layout you have
> to change the layout while you are rendering a stretchy character.  Hard to
> describe but obvious when i see it.
>
>
>
> Fraction as a vertical shift. Potentiallyl two directions. To render a
> line you go from the left to the right. Once the fraction grows then you
> have to go back and start stretching your brackets,  or similar. Not
> supported by CSS.
>
>
>
> *Jean:  *re: CSS and the need to go forward and back... You're talking
> about multiple runs through to create one rendition.
>
>
>
> Browsers don't do this stuff. Formatting engines do.
>
>
>
> I could see mathJax or a web service doing this, but think the browser
> vendors will kick and scream over the request.
>
>
>
> *Volker: * So meaning that there's no reason to have this in the CSS
> spec?  Yes they will but there might be other ways of doing this. How do I
> style my parent element based on whether or not it has a particular child?
>
>
>
> *Jean: *Choose your battles? Do you think you can get vendors on board
> with it in the spec?
>
>
>
> Right. Conditional stuff. But again - its the ability to look forward and
> look back.
>
>
>
> *Volker: *goal to get things in the spec? or figure out what is needed?
>
>
>
> Browsers aren't good at looking forward and look back in declarative
> languages.
>
>
>
> *Peter: *First step to collect what problems we see. But next steps are
> to identify the right pieces to tackle. Might be more sensible to solve
> with SVG group.
>
>
>
> *Dani:  *Better to discuss how to discuss the examples? Wiki?
>
>
>
> *Peter: *just use the github issue tracker with a label -- individual
> issues labeled as layout.
>
>
>
> *Jean: *Thumbs up for a wiki - maybe a github page?
>
> Why not a github wiki page so we can see everything in context?
>
>
>
> *Peter: *does not allow to inject CSS. Not enough control.
>
>
>
> *Dani: *what is the idea to work collaboratively? people just fetch the
> file and edit it?
>
>
>
> *Peter:* just go to edit file and make a pull request? Lots of things
> available via the web interface.
>
>
>
> *Dani: * better to have each of its problems on its own page.
>
>
>
> *Peter: *if we split it on the issue tracker we can actually help people
> give feedback if they think it is a priority to them.  Not expecting
> hundreds of people however.
>
>
>
> *Dani*: at the point that something is written, more people who are
> interested will join.
>
>
>
> [Peter had to leave. ]
>
>
>
> *Dani: *do we want to continue or just speak in two weeks?
>
>
>
> Decision was made to speak in two weeks.  Dani will reformat and send
> examples.
>
>
>
> [1] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1339
>
> [2] https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/html5.html
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Kyrce Swenson*
>
> Solutions Manager
> C4 Semantic Markup: Tooling & Players
> C5 Structured Authoring: Proofing
>
>
>
> Pearson PLC
>
> 221 River Street, Second Floor
> Hoboken, NJ 07030 USA
>
> VM: +1 (201) 236 5611 <(201)%20236-5611>
> M: +1 (973) 744-0741 <(973)%20744-0741>
> kyrce.swenson@pearson.com
>
>
>
> *Learn more at pearson.com <http://pearson.com>*
>
>
> [image: Pearson]
>
> [image: Pearson Tagline]
>
>
>
> ᐧ
>

RE: Minutes 2017/05/11- DRAFT

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Daniel Marques (dani@wiris.com) • May 12, 2017 • Permalink

Thank you very much Kyrce!



Dani



*From:* Swenson, Kyrce [mailto:kyrce.swenson@pearson.com]
*Sent:* jueves, 11 de mayo de 2017 19:19
*To:* public-mathonwebpages@w3.org
*Subject:* Minutes 2017/05/11- DRAFT



*Topic:* Layout

*Attendees: *Peter Krauzberger, Daniel Marques, Jean Kaplansky, Volker
Sorge, Sam Dooley, Charles LaPierre,  Kyrce Swenson

*Scribe:* Kyrce Swenson



-----



*Peter: *What can improve and give feedback on layout requirements so that
other web standards can be influenced by the WG?



Collect use cases.



Some contact already with the CSS working group, Including actual issue
that MathJAX needs to respond to.



Link in issue to codepen example to sketch out the basic problem: [1] Two
dimensional content in inline content. Must be aligned with the baseline.
In CSS only the top or the bottom can be aligned to the baseline.. No tools
for something like a simple fraction, etc. This example was trying to
explain this problem. Current solutions all require manual baseline fixing
and shifts.



This takes time and adds complexity. We need a way to tell CSS what should
be at the baseline level.



*Dani**: *The limits of the technology are MathJAX and we can use MathML
directly in FF, and there are solutions from Wiris. Be able to do
mathematics using only html5 + css. We need to be able to tell the CSS
people to convince them.



*Peter: *

there's also KaTeX, MathQuill, and a bunch of hobby projects.



*Peter* identify use cases that are broader than mathematical. Example:
aligned SVGs inline because they had some textual content. Wanted to align
the text not the image  [2]



Little chance that this will be something only math needs. These challenges
are interesting in a general sense as well.



*Volker: *Right now we are talking about vertical growth not ascenders and
descenders growing. More serious problem: Left to Right layout you have to
change the layout while you are rendering a stretchy character.  Hard to
describe but obvious when i see it.



Fraction as a vertical shift. Potentiallyl two directions. To render a line
you go from the left to the right. Once the fraction grows then you have to
go back and start stretching your brackets,  or similar. Not supported by
CSS.



*Jean:  *re: CSS and the need to go forward and back... You're talking
about multiple runs through to create one rendition.



Browsers don't do this stuff. Formatting engines do.



I could see mathJax or a web service doing this, but think the browser
vendors will kick and scream over the request.



*Volker: * So meaning that there's no reason to have this in the CSS spec?
Yes they will but there might be other ways of doing this. How do I style
my parent element based on whether or not it has a particular child?



*Jean: *Choose your battles? Do you think you can get vendors on board with
it in the spec?



Right. Conditional stuff. But again - its the ability to look forward and
look back.



*Volker: *goal to get things in the spec? or figure out what is needed?



Browsers aren't good at looking forward and look back in declarative
languages.



*Peter: *First step to collect what problems we see. But next steps are to
identify the right pieces to tackle. Might be more sensible to solve with
SVG group.



*Dani:  *Better to discuss how to discuss the examples? Wiki?



*Peter: *just use the github issue tracker with a label -- individual
issues labeled as layout.



*Jean: *Thumbs up for a wiki - maybe a github page?

Why not a github wiki page so we can see everything in context?



*Peter: *does not allow to inject CSS. Not enough control.



*Dani: *what is the idea to work collaboratively? people just fetch the
file and edit it?



*Peter:* just go to edit file and make a pull request? Lots of things
available via the web interface.



*Dani: * better to have each of its problems on its own page.



*Peter: *if we split it on the issue tracker we can actually help people
give feedback if they think it is a priority to them.  Not expecting
hundreds of people however.



*Dani*: at the point that something is written, more people who are
interested will join.



[Peter had to leave. ]



*Dani: *do we want to continue or just speak in two weeks?



Decision was made to speak in two weeks.  Dani will reformat and send
examples.



[1] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1339

[2] https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/html5.html



-- 

*Kyrce Swenson*

Solutions Manager
C4 Semantic Markup: Tooling & Players
C5 Structured Authoring: Proofing



Pearson PLC

221 River Street, Second Floor
Hoboken, NJ 07030 USA

VM: +1 (201) 236 5611
M: +1 (973) 744-0741
kyrce.swenson@pearson.com



*Learn more at pearson.com <http://pearson.com>*


[image: Pearson]

[image: Pearson Tagline]



ᐧ

Minutes 2017/05/11- DRAFT

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Swenson, Kyrce (kyrce.swenson@pearson.com) • May 11, 2017 • Permalink

*Topic:* Layout
*Attendees: *Peter Krauzberger, Daniel Marques, Jean Kaplansky, Volker
Sorge, Sam Dooley, Charles LaPierre,  Kyrce Swenson
*Scribe:* Kyrce Swenson

-----

*Peter: *What can improve and give feedback on layout requirements so that
other web standards can be influenced by the WG?

Collect use cases.

Some contact already with the CSS working group, Including actual issue
that MathJAX needs to respond to.

Link in issue to codepen example to sketch out the basic problem: [1] Two
dimensional content in inline content. Must be aligned with the baseline.
In CSS only the top or the bottom can be aligned to the baseline. No tools
for something like a simple fraction, etc. This example was trying to
explain this problem. Current solutions all require manual baseline fixing
and shifts.

This takes time and adds complexity. We need a way to tell CSS what should
be at the baseline level.

*Dani: *The limits of the technology are MathJAX and we can use MathML
directly in FF, and there are solutions from Wiris. Be able to do
mathematics using only html5 + css. We need to be able to tell the CSS
people to convince them.

*Pe**ter: *
there's also KaTeX, MathQuill, and a bunch of hobby projects.

*Peter* identify use cases that are broader than mathematical. Example:
aligned SVGs inline because they had some textual content. Wanted to align
the text not the image  [2]

Little chance that this will be something only math needs. These challenges
are interesting in a general sense as well.

*Volker: *Right now we are talking about vertical growth not ascenders and
descenders growing. More serious problem: Left to Right layout you have to
change the layout while you are rendering a stretchy character.  Hard to
describe but obvious when i see it.

Fraction as a vertical shift. Potentiallyl two directions. To render a line
you go from the left to the right. Once the fraction grows then you have to
go back and start stretching your brackets,  or similar. Not supported by
CSS.

*Jean:  *re: CSS and the need to go forward and back... You're talking
about multiple runs through to create one rendition.

Browsers don't do this stuff. Formatting engines do.

I could see mathJax or a web service doing this, but think the browser
vendors will kick and scream over the request.

*Volker**: * So meaning that there's no reason to have this in the CSS
spec?  Yes they will but there might be other ways of doing this. How do I
style my parent element based on whether or not it has a particular child?

*Jean: *Choose your battles? Do you think you can get vendors on board with
it in the spec?

Right. Conditional stuff. But again - its the ability to look forward and
look back.

*Volker**: *goal to get things in the spec? or figure out what is needed?

Browsers aren't good at looking forward and look back in declarative
languages.

*Peter: *First step to collect what problems we see. But next steps are to
identify the right pieces to tackle. Might be more sensible to solve with
SVG group.

*Dani**:  *Better to discuss how to discuss the examples? Wiki?

*Peter: *just use the github issue tracker with a label -- individual
issues labeled as layout.

*Jean: *Thumbs up for a wiki - maybe a github page?
Why not a github wiki page so we can see everything in context?

*Peter: *does not allow to inject CSS. Not enough control.

*Dani**: *what is the idea to work collaboratively? people just fetch the
file and edit it?

*Peter:* just go to edit file and make a pull request? Lots of things
available via the web interface.

*Dani: * better to have each of its problems on its own page.

*Peter: *if we split it on the issue tracker we can actually help people
give feedback if they think it is a priority to them.  Not expecting
hundreds of people however.

*Dani*: at the point that something is written, more people who are
interested will join.

[Peter had to leave. ]

*Dani: *do we want to continue or just speak in two weeks?

Decision was made to speak in two weeks.  Dani will reformat and send
examples.

[1] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1339
[2] https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/examples/display/html5.html

-- 
Kyrce Swenson
Solutions Manager
C4 Semantic Markup: Tooling & Players
C5 Structured Authoring: Proofing

Pearson PLC
221 River Street, Second Floor
Hoboken, NJ 07030 USA
VM: +1 (201) 236 5611
M: +1 (973) 744-0741
kyrce.swenson@pearson.com

Learn more at pearson.com

[image: Pearson]

[image: Pearson Tagline]

ᐧ

RE: [math-on-web] meeting agenda 2017/05/11

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken (tsiegman@wiley.com) • May 10, 2017 • Permalink

Regrets

Tzviya Siegman
Information Standards Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 3:40 PM
To: mathonwebCG
Subject: [math-on-web] meeting agenda 2017/05/11

Hi everyone,

Just a quick reminder that we're meeting tomorrow (Thursday) at 12:00 Eastern time (GMT-04:00) via appear.in/mathonweb<http://appear.in/mathonweb>.

As decided in the last meeting, we'll start having meetings with one particular focus/topic.

Best regards,
Peter.

Agenda

* Main Topic: Layout.
  * identify critical starting points, use case and which W3C groups we might want to reach out to.
* Updates from various activities (if available)

[math-on-web] meeting agenda 2017/05/11

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org) • May 10, 2017 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Just a quick reminder that we're meeting tomorrow (Thursday) at 12:00
Eastern time (GMT-04:00) via appear.in/mathonweb.

As decided in the last meeting, we'll start having meetings with one
particular focus/topic.

Best regards,
Peter.

Agenda

* Main Topic: Layout.
  * identify critical starting points, use case and which W3C groups we
might want to reach out to.
* Updates from various activities (if available)

CfP: MathUI 2017 - Mathematical User Interfaces Workshop

Source: www-math@w3.org Mail Archives • Marco Pollanen (marcopollanen@trentu.ca) • May 07, 2017 • Permalink


                 Call for Papers: MathUI'17
      (see MathUI at http://www.cicm-conference.org/2017)
           ----------------------------------------
         12th Mathematical User Interfaces Workshop 2017
           ----------------------------------------
     at the Conference on Intelligent Computer Mathematics
                      Edinburgh, Scotland
               between 17 -- 21st of July 2017
                ------------------------------
                      please redistribute

SCOPE
MathUI is an international workshop to discuss how users
can be best supported when doing/learning/searching for/interacting
with mathematics using a computer.
   - Is mathematical user interface design a design for
     representing mathematics, embedding mathematical context,
     or a specific design for mathematicians?
   - How is mathematics for which purpose best represented?
   - What specifically math-oriented support is needed?
   - Does learning of math require a platform
     different than other learning platforms?
   - Which mathematical services can be offered?
     Which services can be meaningfully combined?
   - What best practices wrt. mathematics can be found
     and how can they be best communicated?

We invite all questions, that care for the use of mathematics
on computers and how the user experience can be improved, to be
discussed in the workshop.

TOPICS include:
  - user-requirements for math interfaces
  - presentation formats
  - mobile-devices powered mathematics
  - cultural differences in practices of mathematical languages
  - didactically sensible scenarios of use
  - spreadsheets as mathematical interfaces
  - manipulations of mathematical expressions

This workshop follows a successful series of workshops held at
the Conferences on Intelligent Computer Mathematics since 11 years;
it features presentations of brand new ideas in papers selected by
a thorough review process, wide space for discussions,as well as a
software demonstration session.

SUBMISSIONS
The organizers invite authors to submit contributions
of 6 to 12 pages on the workshop-related topics in PDF format
optionally illustrated by supplementary media such as video
recordings or access to demos. Please submit via easychair at https://easychair.org/conferences/?conf=mathui17 .

  DEADLINE for submissions: May 31th 2017.
  Method of submission: please login and submit via EasyChair.

The submissions will be reviewed by the international
programme committee whose comments and recommendations will be
sent back by June 18th requesting a final version (6 - 12 pages) no later than
July 2nd.

Moreover, MathUI will be concluded by an EXPO-like
demonstration session. Proposed demonstrations should be sent
by email until June 20th, containing a URL to a software
description, a title, a short abstract of the demonstrated
features, and the indication of hardware expectations
(own/lent laptop/tablet, internet access (speed?), power, ...).
After a short elevator pitch, the demonstration session will
run for 1-3h, each demonstrating to interested parties.

PC Committee (not yet confirmed)
-------------
Japan
  - Yasuyuki Nakamura, Nagoya University
  - Mitsushi Fujimoto, Fukuoka University of Education
Canada
  - Marco Pollanen (organizer), Trent University
France
  - Jana Trgalova, Universite Claude Bernard Lyon 1
Germany
  - Andrea Kohlhase (organizer),
    Neu-Ulm University of Applied Sciences
  - Michael Kohlhase, University of Erlangen
  - Paul Libbrecht,
    German Institute for International Educational Research (DIPF), Germany
Spain
- Daniel Marquès, wiris, Barcelona
USA
  - Deyan Ginev, Authorea, New York
  - Elena Smirnova, Texas Instruments Inc. Education Technology

For inquiries please contact
- Marco Pollanen, marcopollanen@trentu.ca
- Andrea Kohlhase, Andrea.Kohlhase@hs-neu-ulm.de

RE: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Jean Kaplansky (jeankap@gmail.com) • May 03, 2017 • Permalink

Oh! The perennial k-12 basic math problem.

And this is where things start to go toward the "dark arts" in Ken Rawson of the IEEE's opinion.

There's no way to completely separate presentation from semantic meaning in elementary math since the students learn the meaning as much from the visualized format as they do from the logical concepts that go with the format. The fact that there is no one international format compounds the problem.

I did some toolbar work in MathFlow a few years that pulled in some of David Carlisle's CTOP markup in order to get elementary math to work in MathJax. It was very template intensive and required a lot of extra nudging by including mspace and mphantom elements. It wasn't pretty but it got the job done in that instance.

I still have the photo samples from that particular project.

I officially work for MHE higher ed now which has some requirements for elementary math constructs - especially in remedial materials. I can request samples from a contact in K-12 if required. I'll need to know what grade range and specific topic you guys want to see in order to get samples.

Also, the big thing in K-12 math these days is less about two dimensional layouts and more about "everyday" math. These problems are highly graphic and very much related to counting, ordering, and sorting, e.g., "here is a handful of change from Johnny's pocket. How much money does he have?" With an image of a variety of coins of different denominations. This stuff is way different from the worksheets of my K-12 experience. The approach gained popularity in the early 90s (I know this because this is when my own kid was taking math and I was helping with homework).

Please let me know what samples are important in terms of group priorities. Don't have priorities? I'm happy to suggest stating with long division and stacked addition/subtraction/multiplication including the need to demonstrate worked out problems. This stuff was the most intensive stuff I had to work with in my MathFlow configuration project because every new column in either direction required yet another template to support not only the column, but also the need to support cross-outs and carry-overs.

Hope this helps you guys envision some of the things I was working on. I'm happy to discuss further. I think that there's a lot of progress that could be made by all of the math authoring and rendering tools out there.

Best,

Jean Kaplansky
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068 (tel:+1.518.930.1068)
jeankap@earthlink.net
@jeankaplansky

On May 3, 2017, 11:46 AM -0400, Pedersen, John - Hoboken <jpederse@wiley.com>, wrote:
>
> Sorry, didn’t use the right terminology. We were talking about differences around the world in layout for explaining/doing various fairly rudimentary mathematics. Think of long division: apparently the way of presenting this in classrooms around the world varies significantly, although they probably all use some sort of two-dimensional layout. We were talking about extending MathML to cover some such things (long division may already be fairly well handled).
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
> John Pedersen
>
>
> Information Architect
>
>
> John Wiley & Sons
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jean Kaplansky [mailto:jeankap@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 11:40 AM
> To: Jean Kaplansky; public-mathonw.; Pedersen, John - Hoboken
> Subject: RE: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ahh. Yes. We definitely have K-12 and Higher Ed math. Two-dimensional layout? What specifically are you guys looking for? Graphs?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
> Jean Kaplansky
> Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
> Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
> Instructional Designer
> +1.518.930.1068 (tel:+1.518.930.1068)
> jeankap@earthlink.net (mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net)
> @jeankaplansky
>
>
>
>
> On May 3, 2017, 11:17 AM -0400, Pedersen, John - Hoboken <jpederse@wiley.com (mailto:jpederse@wiley.com)>, wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Jean,
>
>
>
>
>
> My comment was actually about Jacaranda Wiley content (our only high-school-level content where the kind of two-dimensional layout that we were discussing might occur). But yes, MHE may have a lot more primary- and secondary-level content.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> John.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jean Kaplansky [mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 11:08 AM
> To: public-mathonw.
> Subject: Fwd: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap
>
>
>
>
>
> Examples from Wiley books? Better to ask Tzviya than Jean.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jean, however, can take requests for MHE books. What are you guys looking for specifically?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Jean
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jean Kaplansky
> Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
> Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
> Instructional Designer
> +1.518.930.1068 (tel:(518)%20930-1068)
> jeankap@earthlink.net (mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net)
> @jeankaplansky
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org (mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org)> wrote:
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Below are the minutes from the CG meeting last week.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Peter.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ## mathonweb CG, 2017/04/27
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Present: Peter, Dani, Volker, Charles, John, Sam, Neil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Updates from the a11y TF
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Daniel: back to math role
>
>
>
> * now feel it's useful, like img but not "... image" but (sometimes) "...(math)"
>
>
>
> * Volker: still concerned about "math"
>
>
>
> * not general enough for scientific content (e.g., chemistry)
>
>
>
> * e.g., "equation"
>
>
>
> * Daniel: agree need for more general
>
>
>
> * Peter: as per last discussion, roledescription seems destined for htat
>
>
>
> * but "...math" might be more vendor-specific, so we could approach them
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Peter: do you feel ready to discuss with ARIA WG?
>
>
>
> * coordinate, ask them what we can provide them with, how we might help positively shape
>
>
>
> * Daniel: and simply get to know each other
>
>
>
> * ACTION Yes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * intro: Sam Dooley
>
>
>
> * invovled in MML from earliest days
>
>
>
> * MathWG
>
>
>
> * Pearson, School Assessment
>
>
>
> * previously IBM, Netscape plugin techexplorer, turned into math equation editor, now JS, used in TestNav Testing platforms
>
>
>
> * about 30million ContentMathML for high stakes assessment, machine scored by automated scoring services
>
>
>
> * also free responses that are hand coded
>
>
>
> * recently extended for a11y (Nemeth input&output)
>
>
>
> * intro: Neil Soiffer
>
>
>
> * used to work on MathPlayer at Design Science
>
>
>
> * MathWG member
>
>
>
> * a11y for a long time
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Peter: about role=math problems
>
>
>
> * TF had thought about this as first step for talking to ARIA
>
>
>
> * But now suggest to leave it since it can't be changed much
>
>
>
> * Daniel: in favor of role=math as a good role
>
>
>
> * and https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-roledescription would help as well
>
>
>
> * Peter: planned reaching out to ARIA WG for joint call
>
>
>
> * a11y TF in a good place to start discussion
>
>
>
> * Daniel: explain what our problems are
>
>
>
> * e.g., advanced tools for navigating
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Daniel: demo of WIRIS, http://www.wiris.net/demo/editor/tests/en/test.html
>
>
>
> * JAWS, NVDA, Narrator works; VoiceOver is a problem
>
>
>
> * uses live regions
>
>
>
> * preview of speech text in page (both live and complete string)
>
>
>
> * Volker: ChromeVox were you using the extension or ChromeVox.next?
>
>
>
> * Charles: are those regions assertive or polite?
>
>
>
> * => assertive
>
>
>
> * Daniel: if you test, keep in mind that the live region lives elsewhere
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> change CG meetings to topic-oriented cycling (layout, accessibility, notation)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Peter: agenda item: reorganizing meetings
>
>
>
> * focused themes, cycle through topics we identified last year to bring back lurkers
>
>
>
> * Dani: makes prepping meetings easier, with
>
>
>
> * John: personal time-limitations would make single meeting easier
>
>
>
> * Volker: smaller meetings were more productive, focus might bring down number of participants
>
>
>
> * Neil: monday time is too hard for PST, focus is good
>
>
>
> * => agreed
>
>
>
> * Peter: topic for next meeting
>
>
>
> * layout, notations
>
>
>
> * Neil: how about human notation/layout that are not currently represented on the web
>
>
>
> * human notations for teaching procedural
>
>
>
> * Peter: great idea, never seen a survey of that
>
>
>
> * John: examples from Wiley books might be useful
>
>
>
> * Peter: ACTION ask Jean
>
>
>
> * Peter: related: latinreq, https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/#equations
>
>
>
> * Neil: would be interested in non-US examples
>
>
>
> * Peter: next meeting topic: layout?
>
>
>
> * => agreed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

RE: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Pedersen, John - Hoboken (jpederse@wiley.com) • May 03, 2017 • Permalink

Sorry, didn’t use the right terminology. We were talking about differences around the world in layout for explaining/doing various fairly rudimentary mathematics. Think of long division: apparently the way of presenting this in classrooms around the world varies significantly, although they probably all use some sort of two-dimensional layout. We were talking about extending MathML to cover some such things (long division may already be fairly well handled).

Thanks.

John Pedersen
Information Architect
John Wiley & Sons

From: Jean Kaplansky [mailto:jeankap@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 11:40 AM
To: Jean Kaplansky; public-mathonw.; Pedersen, John - Hoboken
Subject: RE: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap

Ahh. Yes. We definitely have K-12 and Higher Ed math. Two-dimensional layout? What specifically are you guys looking for? Graphs?

Thanks,

Jean Kaplansky
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068<tel:+1.518.930.1068>
jeankap@earthlink.net<mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net>
@jeankaplansky

On May 3, 2017, 11:17 AM -0400, Pedersen, John - Hoboken <jpederse@wiley.com<mailto:jpederse@wiley.com>>, wrote:

Jean,

My comment was actually about Jacaranda Wiley content (our only high-school-level content where the kind of two-dimensional layout that we were discussing might occur). But yes, MHE may have a lot more primary- and secondary-level content.

Thanks.
John.

From: Jean Kaplansky [mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 11:08 AM
To: public-mathonw.
Subject: Fwd: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap

Examples from Wiley books? Better to ask Tzviya than Jean.

Jean, however, can take requests for MHE books. What are you guys looking for specifically?

Thanks,
Jean

Jean Kaplansky
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068<tel:(518)%20930-1068>
jeankap@earthlink.net<mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net>
@jeankaplansky

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org<mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Below are the minutes from the CG meeting last week.

Best,
Peter.


## mathonweb CG, 2017/04/27

* Present: Peter, Dani, Volker, Charles, John, Sam, Neil

Updates from the a11y TF

* Daniel: back to math role
  * now feel it's useful, like img but not "... image" but (sometimes) "...(math)"
  * Volker: still concerned about "math"
    * not general enough for scientific content (e.g., chemistry)
    * e.g., "equation"
  * Daniel: agree need for more general
* Peter: as per last discussion, roledescription seems destined for htat
  * but "...math" might be more vendor-specific, so we could approach them

* Peter: do you feel ready to discuss with ARIA WG?
  * coordinate, ask them what we can provide them with, how we might help positively shape
  * Daniel: and simply get to know each other
  * ACTION Yes

* intro: Sam Dooley
  * invovled in MML from earliest days
  * MathWG
  * Pearson, School Assessment
  * previously IBM, Netscape plugin techexplorer, turned into math equation editor, now JS, used in TestNav Testing platforms
    * about 30million ContentMathML for high stakes assessment, machine scored by automated scoring services
    * also free responses that are hand coded
  * recently extended for a11y (Nemeth input&output)
* intro: Neil Soiffer
  * used to work on MathPlayer at Design Science
  * MathWG member
  * a11y for a long time

* Peter: about role=math problems
  * TF had thought about this as first step for talking to ARIA
  * But now suggest to leave it since it can't be changed much
  * Daniel: in favor of role=math as a good role
    * and https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-roledescription would help as well
* Peter: planned reaching out to ARIA WG for joint call
  * a11y TF in a good place to start discussion
  * Daniel: explain what our problems are
    * e.g., advanced tools for navigating

* Daniel: demo of WIRIS, http://www.wiris.net/demo/editor/tests/en/test.html

  * JAWS, NVDA, Narrator works; VoiceOver is a problem
  * uses live regions
  * preview of speech text in page (both live and complete string)
  * Volker: ChromeVox were you using the extension or ChromeVox.next?
  * Charles: are those regions assertive or polite?
    * => assertive
  * Daniel: if you test, keep in mind that the live region lives elsewhere

change CG meetings to topic-oriented cycling  (layout, accessibility, notation)

* Peter: agenda item: reorganizing meetings
  * focused themes, cycle through topics we identified last year to bring back lurkers
  * Dani: makes prepping meetings easier, with
  * John: personal time-limitations would make single meeting easier
  * Volker: smaller meetings were more productive, focus might bring down number of participants
  * Neil: monday time is too hard for PST, focus is good
  * => agreed
* Peter: topic for next meeting
  * layout, notations
* Neil: how about human notation/layout that are not currently represented on the web
  * human notations for teaching procedural
  * Peter: great idea, never seen a survey of that
  * John: examples from Wiley books might be useful
  * Peter: ACTION ask Jean
  * Peter: related: latinreq, https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/#equations

  * Neil: would be interested in non-US examples
* Peter: next meeting topic: layout?
  * => agreed


RE: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Jean Kaplansky (jeankap@gmail.com) • May 03, 2017 • Permalink

Ahh. Yes. We definitely have K-12 and Higher Ed math. Two-dimensional layout? What specifically are you guys looking for? Graphs?

Thanks,

Jean Kaplansky
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068 (tel:+1.518.930.1068)
jeankap@earthlink.net
@jeankaplansky

On May 3, 2017, 11:17 AM -0400, Pedersen, John - Hoboken <jpederse@wiley.com>, wrote:
>
> Jean,
>
>
>
>
>
> My comment was actually about Jacaranda Wiley content (our only high-school-level content where the kind of two-dimensional layout that we were discussing might occur). But yes, MHE may have a lot more primary- and secondary-level content.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> John.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jean Kaplansky [mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 11:08 AM
> To: public-mathonw.
> Subject: Fwd: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap
>
>
>
>
>
> Examples from Wiley books? Better to ask Tzviya than Jean.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jean, however, can take requests for MHE books. What are you guys looking for specifically?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Jean
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jean Kaplansky
> Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
> Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
> Instructional Designer
> +1.518.930.1068 (tel:(518)%20930-1068)
> jeankap@earthlink.net (mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net)
> @jeankaplansky
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org (mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org)> wrote:
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Below are the minutes from the CG meeting last week.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Peter.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ## mathonweb CG, 2017/04/27
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Present: Peter, Dani, Volker, Charles, John, Sam, Neil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Updates from the a11y TF
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Daniel: back to math role
>
>
>
> * now feel it's useful, like img but not "... image" but (sometimes) "...(math)"
>
>
>
> * Volker: still concerned about "math"
>
>
>
> * not general enough for scientific content (e.g., chemistry)
>
>
>
> * e.g., "equation"
>
>
>
> * Daniel: agree need for more general
>
>
>
> * Peter: as per last discussion, roledescription seems destined for htat
>
>
>
> * but "...math" might be more vendor-specific, so we could approach them
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Peter: do you feel ready to discuss with ARIA WG?
>
>
>
> * coordinate, ask them what we can provide them with, how we might help positively shape
>
>
>
> * Daniel: and simply get to know each other
>
>
>
> * ACTION Yes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * intro: Sam Dooley
>
>
>
> * invovled in MML from earliest days
>
>
>
> * MathWG
>
>
>
> * Pearson, School Assessment
>
>
>
> * previously IBM, Netscape plugin techexplorer, turned into math equation editor, now JS, used in TestNav Testing platforms
>
>
>
> * about 30million ContentMathML for high stakes assessment, machine scored by automated scoring services
>
>
>
> * also free responses that are hand coded
>
>
>
> * recently extended for a11y (Nemeth input&output)
>
>
>
> * intro: Neil Soiffer
>
>
>
> * used to work on MathPlayer at Design Science
>
>
>
> * MathWG member
>
>
>
> * a11y for a long time
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Peter: about role=math problems
>
>
>
> * TF had thought about this as first step for talking to ARIA
>
>
>
> * But now suggest to leave it since it can't be changed much
>
>
>
> * Daniel: in favor of role=math as a good role
>
>
>
> * and https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-roledescription would help as well
>
>
>
> * Peter: planned reaching out to ARIA WG for joint call
>
>
>
> * a11y TF in a good place to start discussion
>
>
>
> * Daniel: explain what our problems are
>
>
>
> * e.g., advanced tools for navigating
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Daniel: demo of WIRIS, http://www.wiris.net/demo/editor/tests/en/test.html
>
>
>
> * JAWS, NVDA, Narrator works; VoiceOver is a problem
>
>
>
> * uses live regions
>
>
>
> * preview of speech text in page (both live and complete string)
>
>
>
> * Volker: ChromeVox were you using the extension or ChromeVox.next?
>
>
>
> * Charles: are those regions assertive or polite?
>
>
>
> * => assertive
>
>
>
> * Daniel: if you test, keep in mind that the live region lives elsewhere
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> change CG meetings to topic-oriented cycling (layout, accessibility, notation)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * Peter: agenda item: reorganizing meetings
>
>
>
> * focused themes, cycle through topics we identified last year to bring back lurkers
>
>
>
> * Dani: makes prepping meetings easier, with
>
>
>
> * John: personal time-limitations would make single meeting easier
>
>
>
> * Volker: smaller meetings were more productive, focus might bring down number of participants
>
>
>
> * Neil: monday time is too hard for PST, focus is good
>
>
>
> * => agreed
>
>
>
> * Peter: topic for next meeting
>
>
>
> * layout, notations
>
>
>
> * Neil: how about human notation/layout that are not currently represented on the web
>
>
>
> * human notations for teaching procedural
>
>
>
> * Peter: great idea, never seen a survey of that
>
>
>
> * John: examples from Wiley books might be useful
>
>
>
> * Peter: ACTION ask Jean
>
>
>
> * Peter: related: latinreq, https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/#equations
>
>
>
> * Neil: would be interested in non-US examples
>
>
>
> * Peter: next meeting topic: layout?
>
>
>
> * => agreed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

RE: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Pedersen, John - Hoboken (jpederse@wiley.com) • May 03, 2017 • Permalink

Jean,

My comment was actually about Jacaranda Wiley content (our only high-school-level content where the kind of two-dimensional layout that we were discussing might occur). But yes, MHE may have a lot more primary- and secondary-level content.

Thanks.
John.

From: Jean Kaplansky [mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 11:08 AM
To: public-mathonw.
Subject: Fwd: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap

Examples from Wiley books? Better to ask Tzviya than Jean.

Jean, however, can take requests for MHE books. What are you guys looking for specifically?

Thanks,
Jean

Jean Kaplansky
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068<tel:(518)%20930-1068>
jeankap@earthlink.net<mailto:jeankap@earthlink.net>
@jeankaplansky

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org<mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Below are the minutes from the CG meeting last week.

Best,
Peter.


## mathonweb CG, 2017/04/27

* Present: Peter, Dani, Volker, Charles, John, Sam, Neil

Updates from the a11y TF

* Daniel: back to math role
  * now feel it's useful, like img but not "... image" but (sometimes) "...(math)"
  * Volker: still concerned about "math"
    * not general enough for scientific content (e.g., chemistry)
    * e.g., "equation"
  * Daniel: agree need for more general
* Peter: as per last discussion, roledescription seems destined for htat
  * but "...math" might be more vendor-specific, so we could approach them

* Peter: do you feel ready to discuss with ARIA WG?
  * coordinate, ask them what we can provide them with, how we might help positively shape
  * Daniel: and simply get to know each other
  * ACTION Yes

* intro: Sam Dooley
  * invovled in MML from earliest days
  * MathWG
  * Pearson, School Assessment
  * previously IBM, Netscape plugin techexplorer, turned into math equation editor, now JS, used in TestNav Testing platforms
    * about 30million ContentMathML for high stakes assessment, machine scored by automated scoring services
    * also free responses that are hand coded
  * recently extended for a11y (Nemeth input&output)
* intro: Neil Soiffer
  * used to work on MathPlayer at Design Science
  * MathWG member
  * a11y for a long time

* Peter: about role=math problems
  * TF had thought about this as first step for talking to ARIA
  * But now suggest to leave it since it can't be changed much
  * Daniel: in favor of role=math as a good role
    * and https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-roledescription would help as well
* Peter: planned reaching out to ARIA WG for joint call
  * a11y TF in a good place to start discussion
  * Daniel: explain what our problems are
    * e.g., advanced tools for navigating

* Daniel: demo of WIRIS, http://www.wiris.net/demo/editor/tests/en/test.html

  * JAWS, NVDA, Narrator works; VoiceOver is a problem
  * uses live regions
  * preview of speech text in page (both live and complete string)
  * Volker: ChromeVox were you using the extension or ChromeVox.next?
  * Charles: are those regions assertive or polite?
    * => assertive
  * Daniel: if you test, keep in mind that the live region lives elsewhere

change CG meetings to topic-oriented cycling  (layout, accessibility, notation)

* Peter: agenda item: reorganizing meetings
  * focused themes, cycle through topics we identified last year to bring back lurkers
  * Dani: makes prepping meetings easier, with
  * John: personal time-limitations would make single meeting easier
  * Volker: smaller meetings were more productive, focus might bring down number of participants
  * Neil: monday time is too hard for PST, focus is good
  * => agreed
* Peter: topic for next meeting
  * layout, notations
* Neil: how about human notation/layout that are not currently represented on the web
  * human notations for teaching procedural
  * Peter: great idea, never seen a survey of that
  * John: examples from Wiley books might be useful
  * Peter: ACTION ask Jean
  * Peter: related: latinreq, https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/#equations

  * Neil: would be interested in non-US examples
* Peter: next meeting topic: layout?
  * => agreed


Fwd: [math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27 JeanKap

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Jean Kaplansky (jeankap@earthlink.net) • May 03, 2017 • Permalink

Examples from Wiley books? Better to ask Tzviya than Jean.

Jean, however, can take requests for MHE books. What are you guys looking
for specifically?

Thanks,
Jean

*Jean Kaplansky*
Content Architect/Strategist | Technical Account Manager | UI/UX |
Accessibility Analyst | XML, HTML, and CSS Developer |
Instructional Designer
+1.518.930.1068 <(518)%20930-1068>
jeankap@earthlink.net
@jeankaplansky <jeankap@earthlink.net>

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Peter Krautzberger <
peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Below are the minutes from the CG meeting last week.
>
> Best,
> Peter.
>
>
> ## mathonweb CG, 2017/04/27
>
> * Present: Peter, Dani, Volker, Charles, John, Sam, Neil
>
> Updates from the a11y TF
>
> * Daniel: back to math role
>   * now feel it's useful, like img but not "... image" but (sometimes)
> "...(math)"
>   * Volker: still concerned about "math"
>     * not general enough for scientific content (e.g., chemistry)
>     * e.g., "equation"
>   * Daniel: agree need for more general
> * Peter: as per last discussion, roledescription seems destined for htat
>   * but "...math" might be more vendor-specific, so we could approach them
>
> * Peter: do you feel ready to discuss with ARIA WG?
>   * coordinate, ask them what we can provide them with, how we might help
> positively shape
>   * Daniel: and simply get to know each other
>   * ACTION Yes
>
> * intro: Sam Dooley
>   * invovled in MML from earliest days
>   * MathWG
>   * Pearson, School Assessment
>   * previously IBM, Netscape plugin techexplorer, turned into math
> equation editor, now JS, used in TestNav Testing platforms
>     * about 30million ContentMathML for high stakes assessment, machine
> scored by automated scoring services
>     * also free responses that are hand coded
>   * recently extended for a11y (Nemeth input&output)
> * intro: Neil Soiffer
>   * used to work on MathPlayer at Design Science
>   * MathWG member
>   * a11y for a long time
>
> * Peter: about role=math problems
>   * TF had thought about this as first step for talking to ARIA
>   * But now suggest to leave it since it can't be changed much
>   * Daniel: in favor of role=math as a good role
>     * and https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-roledescription would
> help as well
> * Peter: planned reaching out to ARIA WG for joint call
>   * a11y TF in a good place to start discussion
>   * Daniel: explain what our problems are
>     * e.g., advanced tools for navigating
>
> * Daniel: demo of WIRIS, http://www.wiris.net/demo/edit
> or/tests/en/test.html
>   * JAWS, NVDA, Narrator works; VoiceOver is a problem
>   * uses live regions
>   * preview of speech text in page (both live and complete string)
>   * Volker: ChromeVox were you using the extension or ChromeVox.next?
>   * Charles: are those regions assertive or polite?
>     * => assertive
>   * Daniel: if you test, keep in mind that the live region lives elsewhere
>
> change CG meetings to topic-oriented cycling  (layout, accessibility,
> notation)
>
> * Peter: agenda item: reorganizing meetings
>   * focused themes, cycle through topics we identified last year to bring
> back lurkers
>   * Dani: makes prepping meetings easier, with
>   * John: personal time-limitations would make single meeting easier
>   * Volker: smaller meetings were more productive, focus might bring down
> number of participants
>   * Neil: monday time is too hard for PST, focus is good
>   * => agreed
> * Peter: topic for next meeting
>   * layout, notations
> * Neil: how about human notation/layout that are not currently represented
> on the web
>   * human notations for teaching procedural
>   * Peter: great idea, never seen a survey of that
>   * John: examples from Wiley books might be useful
>   * Peter: ACTION ask Jean
>   * Peter: related: latinreq, https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-lat
> inreq/#equations
>   * Neil: would be interested in non-US examples
> * Peter: next meeting topic: layout?
>   * => agreed
>

[math-on-web] CG meeting minutes, 2017/04/27

Source: public-mathonwebpages@w3.org Mail Archives • Peter Krautzberger (peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org) • May 03, 2017 • Permalink

Hi everyone,

Below are the minutes from the CG meeting last week.

Best,
Peter.


## mathonweb CG, 2017/04/27

* Present: Peter, Dani, Volker, Charles, John, Sam, Neil

Updates from the a11y TF

* Daniel: back to math role
  * now feel it's useful, like img but not "... image" but (sometimes)
"...(math)"
  * Volker: still concerned about "math"
    * not general enough for scientific content (e.g., chemistry)
    * e.g., "equation"
  * Daniel: agree need for more general
* Peter: as per last discussion, roledescription seems destined for htat
  * but "...math" might be more vendor-specific, so we could approach them

* Peter: do you feel ready to discuss with ARIA WG?
  * coordinate, ask them what we can provide them with, how we might help
positively shape
  * Daniel: and simply get to know each other
  * ACTION Yes

* intro: Sam Dooley
  * invovled in MML from earliest days
  * MathWG
  * Pearson, School Assessment
  * previously IBM, Netscape plugin techexplorer, turned into math equation
editor, now JS, used in TestNav Testing platforms
    * about 30million ContentMathML for high stakes assessment, machine
scored by automated scoring services
    * also free responses that are hand coded
  * recently extended for a11y (Nemeth input&output)
* intro: Neil Soiffer
  * used to work on MathPlayer at Design Science
  * MathWG member
  * a11y for a long time

* Peter: about role=math problems
  * TF had thought about this as first step for talking to ARIA
  * But now suggest to leave it since it can't be changed much
  * Daniel: in favor of role=math as a good role
    * and https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-roledescription would
help as well
* Peter: planned reaching out to ARIA WG for joint call
  * a11y TF in a good place to start discussion
  * Daniel: explain what our problems are
    * e.g., advanced tools for navigating

* Daniel: demo of WIRIS, http://www.wiris.net/demo/editor/tests/en/test.html
  * JAWS, NVDA, Narrator works; VoiceOver is a problem
  * uses live regions
  * preview of speech text in page (both live and complete string)
  * Volker: ChromeVox were you using the extension or ChromeVox.next?
  * Charles: are those regions assertive or polite?
    * => assertive
  * Daniel: if you test, keep in mind that the live region lives elsewhere

change CG meetings to topic-oriented cycling  (layout, accessibility,
notation)

* Peter: agenda item: reorganizing meetings
  * focused themes, cycle through topics we identified last year to bring
back lurkers
  * Dani: makes prepping meetings easier, with
  * John: personal time-limitations would make single meeting easier
  * Volker: smaller meetings were more productive, focus might bring down
number of participants
  * Neil: monday time is too hard for PST, focus is good
  * => agreed
* Peter: topic for next meeting
  * layout, notations
* Neil: how about human notation/layout that are not currently represented
on the web
  * human notations for teaching procedural
  * Peter: great idea, never seen a survey of that
  * John: examples from Wiley books might be useful
  * Peter: ACTION ask Jean
  * Peter: related: latinreq, https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/#equations
  * Neil: would be interested in non-US examples
* Peter: next meeting topic: layout?
  * => agreed

MathZilla collection ported to WebExtensions

Source: Updates | Frédéric Wang • April 28, 2017 • Permalink

MathZilla is a collection of MathML-related add-ons for Mozilla applications. It provides nice features such as forcing native MathML rendering (e.g. on Wikipedia), using Web fonts to render MathML or providing a context menu item to copy math formulas into the clipboard.

Initially written as a single XUL overlay extension (with even binary code for the LaTeX-to-MathML converter) it grows up as a collection of restartless add-ons using bootstrapped or SDK-based extensions, following the evolution of Mozilla’s recommendations. Also, SDK-based extensions were first generated using a Python program called cfx before Mozilla recommended to switch to a JS-based replacement called jpm.

Mozilla announced some time ago that they will transition to the WebExtensions format. On the one hand this sounds bad because developers have to re-write their legacy add-ons again and actually be sure that the transition is even possible or does break anything. On the other hand it is good for long-term interoperability since e.g. Chromium browsers or Microsoft Edge support that format. My colleague Michael Catanzaro also mentioned in a recent blog post that WebExtensions are considered for Epiphany too. It is not clear what Mozilla’s plan is for Thunderbird or SeaMonkey but hopefully they will use that format too (in the past I was suggested to make the MathZilla add-ons compatible with SeaMonkey).

Recently, Mozilla announced their plans for Firefox 57 which is basically to allow only add-ons written as WebExtensions. This means I had to re-write the Mathzilla add-ons again or they will stop working at the end of the year. In general, I believe the features have been preserved although there might be some small behavior changes or minor bugs due to the WebExtensions format. Please check the GitHub bug trackers and release notes for known issues and report any other problems you find. Finally, I reorganized a bit the git repositories and add-on names. Here is the updated list (some add-ons are still being reviewed by Mozilla):

As a conclusion, I’d like to thank all the MathZilla users for their kind comments, bug reporting and financial support. The next step will probably be to ensure addons work in more browsers but that will be for another time ;-)

Re: [wbs] response to 'Call for Review: Publishing Working Group Charter'

Source: public-digipub-ig@w3.org Mail Archives • Ivan Herman (ivan@w3.org) • April 27, 2017 • Permalink

Hi Florian,

While my previous reply was looking at the administrative aspect of handling the changes, this one is on the content.  I did not reply to this earlier because I wanted to broaden the discussion on your proposal with the W3C Team as well as the PUB BG.

We observe that this proposed change to Section 3 is a fairly significant one that will influence the group's dynamics. We are pleased to see that there are other voices that chime in and evolve the proposals; as a consequence I propose to leave this specific issue open during the official review period and let relevant discussions take their course for now. I hope this is fine with you.

Sincerely

Ivan


> On 26 Apr 2017, at 04:26, Florian Rivoal <florian@rivoal.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Yes, in broad lines, this change would remove my objection.
> 
> Now, in details, I would write it a little differently.
> 
> * Your phrasing suggest that we need to agree on all deliverables first, then start. Maybe this will happen, but more likely in my opinion, we may reach consensus quickly on some deliverables (e.g. DPUB-ARIA-2) and take a bit more time to figure out the concrete proposals for (P)WP and EPUB 4. Not having full agreement on everything should not block us from starting on the things where we do have agreement. So here's a suggestion:
> 
> * As we cannot predict how long it will take to reach consensus on each deliverable, having milestones does not seem useful at this point, and may even be counter productive as it seems to suggest that publication should be date driven rather than consensus driven.
> 
> Concretely, I would:
> 
> 1) tweak the text you proposed a little:
> 
>> "The requirements, concepts, and suggested deliverables listed here have been derived from the preliminary considerations of the Digital Publishing Interest Group (see, for example, the PWP-UCR document) as well as the experiences from the EPUB 3.1 Working Group of the IDPF, especially its work on "Browser-friendly Manifestations". One of the first tasks of the Working Group will be to make a thorough review of these proposals and how they fit with specifications from other Working Groups. As concrete proposals are made, reach sufficient maturity and achieve consensus (See <a href="https://www.w3.org/Guide/standards-track/#criteria">Readiness Criteria</a> for guidelines), individual deliverables will be added. The detailed list, milestones, and updated publication schedules will be maintained on the <a href="@@@">group publication status page.</a> "
> 
> 
> 2) Rename the "Recommendation-track Deliverables" to "Suggested Recommendation-track Deliverables", and delete the introductory sentence ("The working group will deliver .... ), since it is now covered by the paragraph we just discussed.
> 
> 3) In section 3.3, keep the introduction sentence and the face-to-face meetings, but remove the document milestones.
> 
> 
> Although the wording is a little different, I believe this is in agreement with the discussion we had during the AC meeting. Would this work for you?
> 
> —Florian
> 
> 
>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 16:06, Johnson, Rick <Rick.Johnson@ingramcontent.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Florian,
>> 
>> After our conversation at lunch, and assuming acceptance of the proposed changes already communicated around the objections raised by Daniel, does the below resolve your remaining objections?
>> 
>> -Rick
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Replace in section 3. Deliverables, the first line:
>>    “More detailed milestones and updated publication schedules are available on the group publication status page”
>> 
>> with the following:
>> 
>> "The requirements, concepts, deliverables, and milestones listed here have been derived from the preliminary considerations of the Digital Publishing Interest Group (see, for example, the PWP-UCR document) as well as the experiences from the EPUB 3.1 Working Group of the IDPF, especially its work on "Browser-friendly Manifestations". One of the first tasks of the Working Group will be to make a thorough review, achieve consensus on, and document the final list, milestones, and the content of the deliverables of the group.  The more detailed list, milestones, and updated publication schedules are available on the <a href="@@@">group publication status page.</a> "
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 4/18/17, 1:30 PM, "Florian Rivoal via WBS Mailer" <sysbot+wbs@w3.org> wrote:
>> 
>>   The following answers have been successfully submitted to 'Call for Review:
>>   Publishing Working Group Charter' (Advisory Committee) for Vivliostyle Inc.
>>   by Florian Rivoal.
>> 
>> 
>>   The reviewer's organization suggests changes to this Charter, and only
>>   supports the proposal if the changes are adopted [Formal Objection].
>> 
>>   Additional comments about the proposal:
>>      Vivliostyle enthusiastically supports the creation of the Publishing
>>   Working Group, its high level goals and scope, and the general format
>>   proposed in the charter.
>> 
>>   However, we think there is an important flaw in the charter that must be
>>   addressed first.
>> 
>>   Web Publications outlines a vision of convergence between digital
>>   publications and the web. We absolutely support this vision, and hope to
>>   contribute to its realization, both by participating in the WG and by
>>   integrating these technologies in our products. Convergence of digital
>>   publications and of the web is central to Vivliostyle's mission as a
>>   company.
>> 
>>   However, to our reading, the existing Web Publications documents are a
>>   manifesto and declaration of intent, not a concrete proposal to address the
>>   problem.
>> 
>>   As such, we believe that (P)WP should be in scope for this working group,
>>   and that concrete proposals to achieve this goal should be made, and when
>>   consensual should be taken up as deliverables of this working group.
>> 
>>   We are however opposed to listing WP and PWP themselves as a REC track
>>   deliverable with dated commitments.
>> 
>>   If "Web Publications" and "Packaged Web Publications" are meant to stay as
>>   general documents outlining the vision independently of any concrete
>>   implementable and testable incarnation, we think it would be much more
>>   appropriate to publish them as WG Notes.
>> 
>>   If, as their proposed inclusion on the REC track suggests, they are meant
>>   to be concrete technological proposals, we think the inclusion on the REC
>>   track is premature, as we do not believe there is consensus on, or even a
>>   general understanding of, what the concrete realization would be.
>> 
>>   Our concrete proposal is to:
>> 
>>   - List WP and PWP as deliverables as Working Group Notes and continue to
>>   refine them as vision and requirements documents
>> 
>>   - Give the possibility to the group to take on new deliverables that help
>>   achieve that vision when they are consensual, possibly by including
>>   something along these lines in the charter (inspired by the CSSWG
>>   charter):
>> 
>>> The WG may create new modules within its scope to fulfill or support the
>>> vision outlined in WP and PWP. If no participant in the group believes a
>>> proposed module is out of scope, and the group has consensus to add it,
>>> the group may add a new module. If the participants who object sustain
>>> their objection after discussion, a re-charter to clarify the scope may
>>   be
>>> needed.
>> 
>>   ~~~
>> 
>>   Independently from this objection, we also make the following suggestion
>>   (but do not oppose the creation of the WG on these grounds even if it was
>>   rejected):
>> 
>>   For the sake of maintainability and timely progress along the REC track, it
>>   is sometimes desirable to split a large specification into smaller modules
>>   (or to do the reverse operation). We do not think it is necessary at this
>>   point to decide whether to split any particular document into smaller
>>   modules, but it would be good to keep it as a possibility. We therefore
>>   suggest the addition of the following sentence to the deliverable section.
>> 
>>> Also, to facilitate timely progress on the REC track and for
>>> the sake of maintainability, based on consensus in the Working
>>> Group, it may split or merge its deliverables.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>   The reviewer's organization intends to participate in these groups:
>>      - Publishing Working Group
>> 
>>   The reviewer's organization:
>>      - intends to review drafts as they are published and send comments.
>>      - intends to develop experimental implementations and send experience
>>   reports.
>>      - intends to develop products based on this work.
>>      - intends to apply this technology in our operations.
>> 
>> 
>>   Comments about the deliverables:
>>      Vivliostyle develops Vivliostyle Viewer and Vivliostyle Formatter,
>>   respecively an interactive UA and a pdf-generating UA, with support for
>>   pagination and advanced typographic features based on CSS (and (X)HTML,
>>   SVG, MathML...).
>> 
>>   Vivliostyle's product provide an answer to Pagination
>>     https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/WD-pwp-ucr-20170309/#pagination
>>   and also intends facilitate Off-lining and Archiving
>>     https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/WD-pwp-ucr-20170309/#onloffl
>>     https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/WD-pwp-ucr-20170309/#archiving
>> 
>>   We currently support ordinary web content as well as EPUB3 as input
>>   formats, and intend to support EPUB4 and other (P)WP formats as they
>>   appear.
>> 
>> 
>>   Answers to this questionnaire can be set and changed at
>>   https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/publwg/ until 2017-05-14.
>> 
>>    Regards,
>> 
>>    The Automatic WBS Mailer
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 


----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Publishing@W3C Technical Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704





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