See also: IRC log
will go through boston
<marma> hi, I'm following this only via IRC (Martin Malmsten from KB, Stockholm)
<TomB> Scribe: Bernard
<TomB> scribenick: bernard
<ww> is the bristol dialin broken?
<ww> Does anyone know if +44 117 370 6152 still works?
<ww> I get Allison Smith's voice telling me the number I have dialed is not in service
<ww> Allison Smith is the "voice of Asterisk" so I'm guessing it comes from the W3C voice bridge not the carrier
seems that only Boston bridge is working
<Andras> as usual :-)
<TomB> ww, are you dialing Boston: +1-617-761-6200, Nice: +18.104.22.168.79.03 , Bristol: +44.203.318.0479 - some of the numbers are new
<ww> on the 020 number, Allison Smith tells me "all circuits are busy now
<ww> can't easily dial internationally at the moment :(
<ww> TomB: fwiw +4420 is London not Bristol
<ww> I think...
<ww> actually, usually 0207/0208 are london. 0203 might well be elsewhere
RESOLUTION: accept previous telecon minutes
Tom: will circulate more
informatin about F2F
... will need improvisation about phone and projector ...
... agenda is on the wiki
<emma> draft agenda for F2F : http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F_Pittsburgh
ACTION; all add their attendance on the wiki
<scribe> ACTION: all add their attendance on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html#action01]
<TomB> ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/26-lld-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]
<scribe> ACTION: Potential attendees in Pittsburgh to use wiki page to indicate whether they are attending or not at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-lld-minutes.html#action03]
Tom: informal meeting in Cologne
Informal meeting of XG members at SWBIB 2010 on the morning of 1 December - contact Joachim Neubert
Use cases and case studies - update
Tom: next week pick two use cases for detailed discussion
<emma> ACTION: By Monday Sept. 6 members should add to list of email lists at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Dissemination_Lists [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action05] [DONE]
<emma> ACTION: Group to comment on email text at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_Call_Mail by Monday, Sept. 6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/09/02-lld-minutes.html#action06] [DONE]
<emma> ACTION: Everyone to elaborate on topics in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/08-lld-minutes.html#action08]
<emma> ACTION: Gordon will prepare something on RDA, FRBR etc. for discussion in Sept. agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/07/29-lld-minutes.html#action06] [DONE]
-- To be discussed: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data
GordonD commenting http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data
<TomB> Within IFLA, new technical group for namespaces, coordination of standards in SW framwork, etc - will report to new core activity that resurrects something abandoned a few years ago - concept of universal bibliographic control. One or two months.
GordonD: no formal connection between FRBR and RDA activities
<TomB> ... special interest group for SW issues. Producing mappings beyond IFLA, e.g. for RDA, remains semi-formal - no formal orgn looking at mappings with RDA. Only joint membership in activities.
Publication of standards in RDF not synchronized
<TomB> ... Trying to convey complexity of issues - if we are to get these standards to work together effectively.
GordonD: Issues section gathers
issues discussed in both groups
... Constrained versus unconstrained properties and classes is the main issue ...
no specification of constraints in RDA ...
<emma> pressure from non-lib community for unconstrained properties but RDA, JSC and IFLA groups are convinced that constrained versions ar necessary
<emma> recent IFLA meeting consider publishing unconstrained versions, linked with constrained ones.
<matolat> zakim michaelp.a is matolat
<TomB> Gordon: IFLA persuaded, JSC coming around - have indicated they will not block unconstrained properties.
kcoyle: another issue has to do
with the way constraints are expressed and how they are
enforced in applications
... not sure the RDA method actually works
GordonD: constraints are not
enforced on applications
... constraints are useful to check legacy data
kcoyle: there is a sort a contradiction there
<TomB> Gordon: They are constraints on _inferences_. Powerful if you consider there may be billions of triples eventually. Records can be "filled in" using inferences.
GordonD: I won't call them "unformal" constraints
<Zakim> michaelp, you wanted to talk about constraints
GordonD: We need more technical investigation
<kcoyle> hearing loud typing
Michaelp: there is a bit of
confusion about constraints and validation
... In OWL the constraints are enabling, not restricting
... There are different of constraints like in XML schemas
GordonD: Indeed a big deal of
confusion in this area
... RDA wants to be validated as a schema
... but also enabling as Michaelp has pointed
Jeff_: The same model can be used either as a schema, either as enabling depending on the use case
kcoyle: we should clarify which constraints we are speaking about
GordonD: There are a lot of value constraints in RDA
<emma> Karen : RDA primary constraints are about constraining a property to a FRBR entity, not the values
GordonD: RDA should keep its own versions of FRBR constraints ...
Tom: move on to next topics
... port this discussion to F2F
GordonD: next topic is "Application profiles or OWL ontologies"
<LarsG> * Zakim please mute me
<emma> GordonD : ISBD elements have a sequence + indicate if mandatory or not, so need for application profile
GordonD: What LLD can bring is clarification of when using application profiles and when using OWL
next topic : Use of published properties and classes
GordonD: How can library comunity be made aware of and re-use widely used classes and properties?
Need to acknowledge overlap between libray and "open Web" classes and properties
<Zakim> emma, you wanted to suggest the need to encourage the use of widespread standards
emma: Agreed with GordonD ...
it's very much an issue of trust ...
<mzrcia> FRSAD intent to use skos semantic relationships instead of repeating to define them
LLD should encourage library community not to be shy about this use
<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest additional attention to "alignment" - mappings and "identity links" between vocabularies
emma: library community not used t o multiplicity of representations
<jeff_> Gordon, you should add OWL to the list of DC, FOAF, SKOS at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data#Use_of_published_properties_and_classes
<GordonD> Jeff, will do
marcia: We have already actions on declaring relationships using "sameAs" or "equivalent classes"
<mzrcia> using SKOS secmantic relationships
<mzrcia> such as broader, narrower... between themas
GordonD: The library community
should not be childish in saying "not invented here"
... Elements coming from the library models will be useful elsewhere also
<GordonD> bernard: churlish, not childish
<mzrcia> I was also into the discussion of reusing/borwwring the assotiative relationships between concepts/topics defined by the Getty vocabulary
GordonD: How can LLD can have
action on milestones in this area?
... Library linked-data and legacy records ...
potential to generate billions of instances ...
scribe: copyright is a critical issue here ...
<emma> GordonD : Need from LLD community to encourage freeing the data
It's a political issue (How can libraries be encouraged to "free" their records?)
GordonD: Technical infrastructure ...
<emma> Library system vendors will only change if customers ask for it
How are vendors to see the ROI?
Duplication and identifiers
GordonD: identifying different
records for the same thing is also a big issue ..
... Library culture ...
... sociological barriers to address ...
<rsinger> GordonD++ #awesome
<emma> +1, Thanks GordonD !
<mzrcia> +1, Gordon!
<LarsG> +1 GordonD, Great!
<TomB> +1 great summary of the issues!
<GordonD> All, thanks!
TomB: a lot of congratulations to Gordon!
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