PWG Weekly telco — Minutes

Date: 2018-07-09

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log


Present: Tzviya Siegman, Wolfgang Schindler, Deborah Kaplan, Chris Maden, Avneesh Singh, George Kerscher, Luc Audrain, Juan Corona, Zheng Xu, Jeff Buehler, Ric Wright, Ben Dugas, Matt Garrish, Jun Gamou, Tim Cole, David Stroup, Ben Walters, Romain Deltour, Charles LaPierre, Garth Conboy, Joshua Pyle, Hadrien Gardeur, Vladimir Levantovsky, Laurent Le Meur, Brady Duga, Gregorio Pellegrino, Karen Myers, Derek Jackson, caitlingebhard, Ben Schroeter, Mustapha Lazrek, Bill Kasdorf, Franco Alvarado, Benjamin Young

Regrets: Ivan Herman, Rachel Comerford, Dave Cramer, Nick Ruffilo, Daniel Weck, Marisa DeMeglio, Teenya Franklin, Garth Conboy, Jasmine Mulliken, Jean Kaplansky


Chair: Tzviya Siegman

Scribe(s): Juan Corona, Wolfgang Schindler


Luc Audrain: laudrain: present+

1. minutes review

Tzviya Siegman:

Resolution #1: Minutes approved

Tzviya Siegman: minutes are good

Juan Corona: (warming up as scribe) :)

2. Review, to help reach consensus

Tzviya Siegman: we need mechanisms, for the UA, scripting in the pub, or external. What’s included as a resource? MathML > Mathjax injection.

Tzviya Siegman: PWP to EPUB4 packaging: There’s no strict decisions between relationship. But we want roundtripping as per charter

Juan Corona: got it

Avneesh Singh: +1 oto Garth’s mentin of uncomfort with each publication carrying reading syste

Deborah Kaplan: lets get some clarification on garth’s comment: would scripting be necessary for navigational access?

Juan Corona: (sorry, this is a bit too much for me right now to scribe, could someone take over? wolfgang? :) )

Hadrien Gardeur:

Hadrien Gardeur: among the experiments we had - if you go on entry page, you will be able to access audiobook via TOC
… without scripting or WP-aware UA

Luc Audrain: +1 for examples

Garth Conboy: tremendous progress over last couple of months - audiobooks as indication that we are in the right direction - mobydick example, audiobook example

George Kerscher: Audio book with navigation, do not just audio only.

Luc Audrain: +1

Joshua Pyle: what happens when browser totally unaware of WP ? - TOC decisive
… lot of contents with TOC - very close to being a WP
… we need a no-scripts thing for non-WP-aware UAs
… W3C documentations should be WPs

Tzviya Siegman: if you have questions or need clarification, bring it up in github

3. scrolling and pagination (open issue in github)

Tzviya Siegman:

Tzviya Siegman: Issue 207

Tzviya Siegman: disagreement over who controls what? Should we have pagination info in manifest

Laurent Le Meur: in epub3 matter of expressing a preference, not defined by the author

Brady Duga: +1 laurent

Juan Corona: +1 to an expression of preference

Laurent Le Meur: at least in epub 4 it is a matter of preferences for the whole WP, not for individual items in readingOrder

Joshua Pyle: I agree strongly that the author should be able to define his/her preferences (not in 2 cols, etc.)

Hadrien Gardeur: expression of preference = override only for accessibility? also available as a user setting?

Joshua Pyle: mechanisms to define a certain layout as an author

Garth Conboy: key point is the “please don’t”, but not “you must not” - expression of author’s preferences
… UA/RS decides finally, but the author may express his preferences

Garth Conboy: content is not boss of the RS

Garth Conboy: publication-wide prefs would be a proposed piece of metadata for the whole WP which is not part of CSS
… it is a hint

Zheng Xu: +1 to hint

Tim Cole: I don’t disagree overall - if we say this is a 2 col publication, we should give a CSS

Juan Corona: +1 to hinting at WP level, css for specific document

Garth Conboy: CSS applies on a per-resource basis, but not to a whole WP

Hadrien Gardeur: expectation what a UA should do with a WP - reader modes differ greatly -
… in ucr we had several cases with pagination

Brady Duga: things that don’t exist in CSS - (1) apply CSS to a collection of resources (2) pagination

Garth Conboy:

Brady Duga: seems to be uncontroversial issue - hard to implement

Joshua Pyle: whatever you can do in CSS, author or publisher are allowed to do it -
… WP as a better reader mode of the browser - problem with the web is a lot of incompatible CSS
… WP as a way to make myriads of content fit into a RS - but more flexible than the reader mode of a browser

Garth Conboy: we certainly will allow each of these resources to have different layout - but reader should allow for cross-resource access

Tzviya Siegman: any author should be able to use any OWP technology - not prescribing or dictating anything

Tzviya Siegman: we should use hints for scroll vs. paginate

Joshua Pyle: value in the consistency that any book looks the same

Garth Conboy: WP-aware UA should provide some level of commonality, but not a must

Benjamin Young: i-frame seamless - core feature: inherited CSS styles - importing the DOM of the iframe into the DOM of the parent

Benjamin Young: we would bring layout-relevant stuff into a config file

Jeff Buehler: +1

Proposed resolution: Allow such a “hint” that would be “publication wide” (e.g., how all the resources should be presented when slamming together all the resources in the default reading order). (Garth Conboy)

Garth Conboy:

Brady Duga: +1

Mustapha Lazrek: +1

Juan Corona: +1

Garth Conboy: +1

Tim Cole: +1

Joshua Pyle: +1 to hints

Deborah Kaplan: +1

Tzviya Siegman: are we OK allowing hints for scroll vs. paginate

Wolfgang Schindler: +1

Charles LaPierre: +1

Bill Kasdorf: +1

Zheng Xu: +1 to hints

Ric Wright: +1

Derek Jackson: +1

Hadrien Gardeur: +0 because I don’t know what we expect from UAs

Jun Gamou: +1

Luc Audrain: +0 until we answer Hadrien’s question

4. Republishing WD after cleanup

Garth Conboy: no official republication of WP since FPWD
… we want to move ahead with another WD of WP

Matt Garrish: we were wanting to get it out as is now - we have a reasonably complete infoset and Web IDL

Tzviya Siegman: we would bring it to the PBG to get feedback from the Business Group

Garth Conboy: time to publish current draft!

Tzviya Siegman: take a look at it - if you are an implementer, test it out - has had a major overhaul in terms of structure

Hadrien Gardeur: any meeting between authors/editors planned?

Tzviya Siegman: we can do that, be in touch

Garth Conboy: another read-through recommended - still in a very malleable stage

Tzviya Siegman: still will have discussions with + dave’s discussions with CSS WG

Tim Cole: need for looking at relationship between WP draft to PWP Draft and Annotation Draft

Hadrien Gardeur: PBG should have a rough idea how things will work in EPUB4 - just show the direction we’re pursuing

Luc Audrain: +1

5. Resolutions