Publishing Working Group Telco — Minutes

Date: 2018-07-02

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log

Attendees

Present: Wolfgang Schindler, Deborah Kaplan, Avneesh Singh, Jeff Buehler, Tzviya Siegman, Dave Cramer, Ivan Herman, Jun Gamou, Romain Deltour, Laurent Le Meur, Ric Wright, Lillian Sullam, Gregorio Pellegrino, George Kerscher, Ben Walters, Garth Conboy, Murata Makoto, Derek Jackson, Luc Audrain, Bill Kasdorf, Tim Cole, Mustapha Lazrek, caitlingebhard, Marisa DeMeglio, Ben Schroeter, Brady Duga, Hadrien Gardeur, Chris Maden, Charles LaPierre, Benjamin Young, Franco Alvarado, Jean Kaplansky, Karen Myers

Regrets: Joshua Pyle, Vladimir Levantovsky, Nick Ruffilo, Peter Krautzberger, David Stroup, matt

Guests:

Chair: Tzviya Siegman

Scribe(s): Wolfgang Schindler

Content:

1. approve minutes

Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-06-25-pwg.html

Tzviya Siegman: any comments?

Resolution #1: last week’s minutes approved

2. List of issues to raise with Dan Brickley

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Schema.org-problems

Tzviya Siegman: cleaned up list of issues - any remarks?

George Kerscher: any issues/questions that need to be discussed?

Tzviya Siegman: already sent list to Dan. No further remarks.

3. Issue 222: “Hints about resources in ‘default reading order’ or ‘list of resources’”

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/222

Tzviya Siegman: gap analysis aims at being feature-compatible with epub 3
… not to duplicate epub 3

Garth Conboy: in epub 3 hints for special stuff such as MathML. Is it useful and if we don’t have it, what are the consequences? Not very important

Ivan Herman: slightly more general issue - minimal infoset in WP, but additional links can be added - don’t think we should standardize everything in WP
… note how useful epub pieces may be mapped to wp - separate contents of spec from contents of that note - looking for an owner of that note

Tzviya Siegman: are these properties relevant for system developer?

Ben Ben Walters: we do occasionally use them - ditching them is OK - you may extract info from contents

Tim Cole: using links and rel is more reliable than properties

Dave Cramer: hoping wp can function without these properties

Garth Conboy: dave: as the web manages to without same

Tzviya Siegman: approaching consensus that we may do without them, but keep a list/wiki of these properties for roundtripping purposes

Tzviya Siegman: create “roundtrip “ label in github

4. Issue 223: “Other navigation elements beyond ToC”

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/223

Garth Conboy: additional capabilities of navigation methods, esp. page-list as most important, but also list of landmarks, list of tables, etc. pretty useful
… we have an ARIA mechanism that is usable and we may describe the function in the manifest.

Tzviya Siegman: how to create equivalent of page-list by using ARIA page-list - explain in the spec!

Garth Conboy: manifest may point where this info may be found

Ivan Herman: “resource” and “links” are both an array of PublicationLinks, page-list may follow the same structures - should it be standardized?

Garth Conboy: would be <nav> elements, pointed to from manifest

George Kerscher: would they live in the TOC? page-list - very important in education where print and digital version coexist

Hadrien Gardeur: I’m not suggesting anything myself - just a gap analysis
… in epub we have a way of pointing to the navigation doc, not the same as pointing to TOC in WP
… also no equivalent for identifying a specific nav element

Tzviya Siegman: Hadrien is right - we need to define explicitly what to do with the page-list - we need to define criteria for UA conformance - in epub world this doesn’t work in all RSs
… we have the basic functionality in HTML already

Garth Conboy: proposes to leave it up to UAs

Avneesh Singh: if we put page-list in HTML, it would be very helpful

Garth Conboy: +1 Avneesh

Deborah Kaplan: avneesh++

Benjamin Young: roundtripping = epub to wp and back?

Benjamin Young: going from epub 3 to epub 4 would make things easier while wp should be for the web

Deborah Kaplan: is wp unpackaged epub 4? important to do a gap analysis wrt to epub3 -

Garth Conboy: benjamin raised a good point. We do need page-list for wp, should be done in HTML (for non-WP-aware UA)
… we need them for wp and epub4

George Kerscher: not specifying UA behaviors - perhaps we need a note that helps implementors and users to understand what is meant

Benjamin Young: does this group agree that wp is on its own and not entangled in epub technology, but epub 4 would be in continuation of the epub tradition
… wp focused on browser

Garth Conboy: wp is not only a waystation to epub 4, epub4 is inheriting from wp and epub3

Ivan Herman: +1 to garth

Luc Audrain: +1

Tzviya Siegman: concerned that page-list is displayed as a list of numbers

Benjamin Young: anything we don’t put in entry page, UA has to hunt for. Potentially unknown to the human reader in this case

Benjamin Young: needs to be an HTML - should be in a place where it would be quickly found

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/223

Deborah Kaplan: tzviya: +1

Jeff Buehler: +1

Tzviya Siegman: agree that it should be part of the spec, but not precisely how it should be done

5. Github issue 205: “We need a section of the document that explicitly defines the bounds of a publication”

Tzviya Siegman: how to offline a publication

Ivan Herman: github topic: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/205

Tzviya Siegman: how to define the bounds of a publication?
… how would offlining work?

Hadrien Gardeur: packaging or caching? 10 different ways of caching? we will never be able to say how it works

Tim Cole: one of the challenges raised - publishers should be able to caching a whole wp - what do you want to cache (ref to parts)

Hadrien Gardeur: +1 to what Tim said

Tzviya Siegman: +1 to brady

Ivan Herman: +1 to brady

Brady Duga: taking a complete wp offline - not equal to caching

Deborah Kaplan: caching or packaging is part of implementation while offlining is an affordance
… premature technical issue (caching or packaging)

Ivan Herman: whatever we do, we need to consider the bounds if we want to offline/cache/package - at the moment it’s very vague - we have readingOrder and resources, but what about images, etc.
… how can author get a level of control what is inside the wp when offlined/cached, etc.

Deborah Kaplan: my concern is that every time this topic came up, the difference between caching vs. packing came up - we are talking about the affordance of offlining

George Kerscher: wp should have a mechanism to create an epub 4 for this wp - to offline a pub when a student goes home at night, not the same as a product for sale

Tzviya Siegman: we need to know the bounds of the publication - hard to make this assessment - focus on the technical issues
… reminds on the affordances tasks distributed among members of this group

6. Resolutions