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15:24:49 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:24:49 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:24:49 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:24:49 <ivan> Date: 2018-07-02
15:24:49 <ivan> Regrets+ jpyle, vlad, NickRuffilo
15:24:49 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Jun/0142.html
15:24:50 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-07-02: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Jun/0142.html
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15:46:01 <ivan> regrets+ david_stroup
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15:59:13 <tzviya> present+
15:59:15 <dauwhe> present+
15:59:22 <dkaplan3> present+
15:59:39 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:59:45 <ivan> present+
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16:00:25 <dauwhe> Zakim, don't pick me
16:00:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'don't pick me', dauwhe
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16:00:55 <rkwright> present+ rkwright
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16:01:18 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:01:18 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wolfgang
16:01:33 <gpellegrino> present+
16:01:33 <wolfgang> scribenick: wolfgang
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16:02:10 <George> present+ George
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16:02:28 <BenWaltersMS> present+
16:02:31 <garth> present+ Garth
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16:03:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:03:45 <MustlazMS> present+
16:04:12 <derekjackson> present+
16:04:48 <timCole> present+ Tim_Cole
16:04:52 <wolfgang> Topic 1: approve minutes
16:04:54 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-06-25-pwg.html
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16:05:03 <wolfgang> tzviya: any comments?
16:05:11 <ivan> resolved: last week's minutes approved
16:05:13 <wolfgang> resolved: minutes approved
16:05:16 <caitlingebhard> present+
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16:05:39 <BenSchroeter> present+
16:05:40 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Schema.org-problems
16:05:45 <duga> present+
16:05:46 <wolfgang> Topic 2: List of issues to raise with Dan Brickley
16:06:11 <wolfgang> tzviya: cleaned up list of issues - any remarks?
16:06:29 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pwg
16:06:37 <Hadrien> present+
16:06:44 <wolfgang> george: any issues/questions that need to be discussed?
16:06:47 <marisa> present+
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16:07:08 <wolfgang> tzviya: already sent list to Dan. No further remarks.
16:07:19 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/222
16:07:26 <wolfgang> Topic: Issue 222
16:08:00 <bigbluehat> present+
16:08:08 <garth> q+
16:08:09 <wolfgang> tzviya: gap analysis aims at being feature-compatible with epub 3
16:08:14 <Franco> Franco has joined #pwg
16:08:16 <ivan> q+
16:08:23 <wolfgang> ... not to duplicate epub 3
16:08:28 <tzviya> ack garth
16:08:44 <Franco> present+
16:09:51 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:09:54 <wolfgang> garth: in epub 3 hints for special stuff such as MathML. Is it useful and if we don't have it, what are the consequences? Not very important
16:10:15 <garth> q?
16:10:55 <wolfgang> ivan: slightly more general issue - minimal infoset in WP, but additional links can be added - don't think we should standardize everything in WP
16:10:57 <tzviya> q+
16:11:40 <tzviya> ack tzviya
16:11:42 <garth> q?
16:11:59 <wolfgang> ... note how useful epub pieces may be mapped to wp - separate contents of spec from contents of that note - looking for an owner of that note
16:12:16 <BenWaltersMS> q+
16:12:21 <tzviya> ack BenWaltersMS
16:12:29 <wolfgang> tzviya: are these properties relevant for system developer?
16:12:56 <timCole> q+
16:13:09 <dauwhe> q+
16:13:10 <tzviya> ack timCole
16:13:18 <wolfgang> ben: we do occasionally use them - ditching them is OK - you may extract info from contents
16:13:43 <garth> q?
16:13:50 <wolfgang> tim: using links and rel is more reliable than properties
16:13:50 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:14:11 <wolfgang> dave: hoping wp can function without these properties
16:14:40 <garth> dave: as the web manages to without same
16:15:00 <wolfgang> tzviya: approaching consensus that we may do without them, but keep a list/wiki of these properties for roundtripping purposes
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16:16:32 <wolfgang> tzviya: create "roundtrip " label in github
16:16:54 <wolfgang> Topic : Issue 223
16:17:22 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/223
16:17:52 <ivan> github topic: 223
16:18:07 <wolfgang> garth: additional capabilities of navigation methods, esp. page-list as most important, but also list of landmarks, list of tables, etc. pretty useful
16:18:13 <ivan> github topic: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/223
16:19:06 <wolfgang> ... we have an ARIA mechanism that is usable and we may describe the function in the manifest.
16:19:14 <ivan> q+
16:19:39 <wolfgang> tzviya: how to create equivalent of page-list by using ARIA page-list - explain in the spec!
16:19:55 <George> q+
16:20:00 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:20:11 <wolfgang> garth: manifest may point where this info may be found
16:21:32 <Hadrien> q+
16:21:41 <wolfgang> ivan: "resource" and "links" are both an array of PublicationLinks, page-list may follow the same structures - should it be standardized
16:21:56 <tzviya> ack George
16:21:58 <garth> ack George
16:22:01 <wolfgang> garth: would be <nav> elements, pointed to from manifest
16:22:55 <wolfgang> george: would they live in the TOC? page-list - very important in education where print and digital version coexist
16:23:17 <garth> ack Hadrien
16:23:38 <tzviya> q+
16:23:49 <wolfgang> hadrien: I'm not suggesting anything myself - just a gap analysis
16:24:27 <wolfgang> ... in epub we have a way of pointing to the navigation doc, not the same as pointing to TOC in WP
16:24:57 <wolfgang> ... also no equivalent for identifying a specific nav element
16:25:00 <garth> q?
16:25:02 <garth> ack tzviya
16:26:04 <garth> q+
16:26:30 <wolfgang> tzviya: Hadrien is right - we need to define explicitly what to do with the page-list - we need to define criteria for UA conformance - in epub world this doesn't work in all RSs
16:26:43 <tzviya> ack garth
16:26:55 <wolfgang> ... we have the basic functionality in HTML already
16:27:02 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:27:02 <Zakim> Present: tzviya, dauwhe, dkaplan, wolfgang, ivan, Avneesh, JunGamo, rkwright, gpellegrino, romain, George, BenWaltersMS, Garth, laudrain, Bill_Kasdorf, MustlazMS, derekjackson,
16:27:06 <Zakim> ... Tim_Cole, caitlingebhard, BenSchroeter, duga, Hadrien, marisa, bigbluehat, Franco
16:27:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see Jean_K, Franco, clapierre, cmaden2, Hadrien, duga, BenSchroeter, marisa, caitlingebhard, MustlazMS, timCole, Bill_Kasdorf, laudrain, derekjackson, MURATA, garth,
16:27:06 <Zakim> ... BenWaltersMS, George, lsullam, rkwright, laurentlemeur, romain, JunGamo, jbuehler, Avneesh, dkaplan3, wolfgang, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, ivan, dauwhe, plinss, github-bot,
16:27:08 <Zakim> ... astearns, bigbluehat, jyasskin
16:27:17 <wolfgang> garth: proposes to leave it up to UAs
16:27:49 <tzviya> q?
16:27:50 <garth> q?
16:27:51 <Avneesh> q+
16:27:53 <bigbluehat> q+
16:27:55 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
16:28:33 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:28:34 <wolfgang> avneesh: if we put page-list in HTML, it would be very helpful
16:28:40 <garth> +1 Avneesh
16:28:42 <dkaplan3> avneesh++
16:28:55 <ivan> present+ jbuehler, rdeltour, bigbluehat
16:29:09 <garth> q?
16:29:13 <wolfgang> benjamin: roundtripping = epub to wp and back?
16:30:13 <dkaplan3> q+
16:30:18 <garth> q+
16:30:19 <George> q+
16:30:38 <wolfgang> benjamin: going from epub 3 to epub 4 would make things easier  while wp should be for the web
16:30:39 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:32:32 <wolfgang> dkaplan: is wp unpackaged epub 4? important to do a gap analysis wrt to epub3 -
16:32:33 <bigbluehat> q+ to suggest we're comparing gaps between the wrong things
16:32:38 <tzviya> ack garth
16:33:31 <wolfgang> garth: benjamin raised a good point. we do need page-list for wp, should be done in HTML (for non-WP-aware UA)
16:33:56 <tzviya> ack George
16:34:00 <wolfgang> ... we need them for wp and epub4
16:35:00 <garth> q?
16:35:00 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:35:01 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to suggest we're comparing gaps between the wrong things
16:35:08 <wolfgang> george: not specifying UA behaviours - perhaps we need a note that helps implementors and users to understand what is meant
16:35:15 <garth> ack bigbluehat
16:36:15 <garth> q+
16:36:24 <ivan> present+ JeanK
16:36:32 <wolfgang> benjamin: does this group agree that wp is on its own and not entangled in epub technology, but epub 4 would be in continuation of the epub tradition
16:36:44 <wolfgang> ... wp focused on browser
16:36:46 <tzviya> ack garth
16:37:36 <wolfgang> garth: wp is not only a waystation to epub 4, epub4 is inheriting from wp and epub3
16:37:40 <ivan> +1 to garth
16:38:10 <laudrain> +1
16:38:24 <bigbluehat> q+
16:38:39 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:38:40 <wolfgang> tzviya: concerned that page-list is displayed as a list of numbers
16:38:41 <garth> q+
16:38:45 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:39:08 <ivan> present+ laurentlemeur
16:39:58 <wolfgang> benjamin: anything we don't put in entry page, UA has to hunt for. potentially unknown to the human reader in this case
16:40:39 <wolfgang> benjamin: needs to be an HTML - should be in a place where it would be quickly found
16:40:49 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/223
16:40:55 <dkaplan3> tzviya: +1
16:41:02 <jbuehler> +1
16:41:04 <laurentlemeur> q-
16:41:04 <tzviya> q?
16:41:28 <wolfgang> tzviya: agree that it should be part of the spec, but not precisely how it should be done
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16:42:22 <ivan> github-bot, end topic
16:42:39 <wolfgang> Topic: Github issue 205
16:43:05 <tzviya> github topic https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/205
16:43:07 <wolfgang> tzviya: how to offline a publication
16:43:16 <ivan> github topic: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/205
16:43:40 <wolfgang> tzviya: how to define the bounds of a publication?
16:43:53 <wolfgang> ... how would offlining work?
16:44:25 <Hadrien> q+
16:44:27 <timCole> q+
16:44:37 <tzviya> ack garth
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16:44:51 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
16:45:14 <duga> q+
16:45:14 <dkaplan3> q+
16:45:45 <tzviya> ack timCole
16:45:50 <wolfgang> hadrien: packaging or caching? 10 different ways of caching? we will never be able to say how it works
16:46:54 <wolfgang> tim: one of the challenges raised - publishers should be able to caching a whole wp - what do you want to cache (ref to parts)
16:47:06 <tzviya> ack duga
16:47:07 <Hadrien> +1 to what Tim said
16:47:32 <tzviya> +1 to brady
16:47:38 <ivan> +1 to brady
16:48:00 <ivan> q+
16:48:08 <wolfgang> brady: taking a complete wp offline - not equal to caching
16:48:15 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:49:07 <wolfgang> dkaplan: caching or packaging is part of implementation while offlining is an affordance
16:49:28 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:49:35 <wolfgang> ... premature technical issue (caching or packaging)
16:51:12 <wolfgang> ivan: whatever we do, we need to consider the bounds if we want to offline/cache/package - at the moment it's very vague - we have readingOrder and resources, but what about images, etc.
16:51:14 <dkaplan3> q+
16:51:52 <wolfgang> ... how can author get a level of control what is inside the wp when offlined/cached, etc.
16:52:00 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:53:47 <George> 6q+
16:53:53 <tzviya> q+ George
16:53:55 <tzviya> q+
16:54:41 <tzviya> ack George
16:54:44 <wolfgang> dkaplan: my concern is that every time this topic came up, the difference between caching vs. packing came up - we are talking about the affordance of offlining
16:56:03 <wolfgang> george: wp should have a mechanism to create an epub 4 for this wp - to offline a pub when a student goes home at night, not the same as a product for sale
16:56:39 <tzviya> ack tzv
16:57:25 <ivan> regrets+ matt
16:57:55 <wolfgang> tzviya: we need to know the bounds of the publication - hard to make this assessment - focus on the technical issues
16:58:07 <ivan> github-bot, end topic
16:58:36 <wolfgang> ... reminds on the affordances tasks distributed among members of this group
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16:59:36 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/02-pwg-minutes.html ivan
16:59:36 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:59:36 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:59:36 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:59:36 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been tzviya, dauwhe, dkaplan, wolfgang, ivan, Avneesh, JunGamo, rkwright, gpellegrino, romain, George, BenWaltersMS, Garth, laudrain,
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16:59:39 <Zakim> ... Bill_Kasdorf, MustlazMS, derekjackson, Tim_Cole, caitlingebhard, BenSchroeter, duga, Hadrien, marisa, bigbluehat, Franco, jbuehler, rdeltour, JeanK, laurentlemeur