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15:38:19 <tzviya> meeting: PWG Weekly telco
15:38:26 <tzviya> chair: Tzviya
15:39:50 <tzviya> regrets+ Ivan_Herman, Rachel_Comerford, Dave_Cramer, Nick_Ruffilo, Daniel_Weck, Marisa_DeMeglio
15:39:54 <tzviya> present+
15:46:33 <tzviya> regrets+ Teenya_Franklin
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15:58:13 <laudrain> laudrain: present+
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15:58:32 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
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15:59:56 <tzviya> scribenick: JuanCorona
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16:00:48 <rkwright> present+ rkwright
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16:01:08 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
16:01:22 <mattg> present+
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16:02:36 <BenWaltersMS> present+
16:02:49 <timCole> present+ Tim_Cole
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16:03:04 <tzviya> topic: minutes review
16:03:13 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-07-02-pwg.html
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16:03:28 <tzviya> regrets+ garth
16:03:33 <garth> present+ Garth
16:03:38 <tzviya> resolved: Minutes approved
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16:03:45 <JuanCorona> tzviya: minutes are good
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16:03:57 <tzviya> present+ garth
16:04:02 <Hadrien> present+
16:04:12 <JuanCorona> (warming up as scribe) :)
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16:04:32 <Vlad> present+
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16:04:44 <laurentlemeur> present+
16:04:49 <josh> present+
16:04:49 <JuanCorona> topic: review, to help reach consensus
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16:05:00 <duga> present+
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16:06:21 <JuanCorona> tzviya: we need mechanisms, for the UA, scripting in the pub, or external. What's included as a resource? MathML > Mathjax injection.
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16:07:01 <derekjackson> present+
16:07:17 <caitlingebhard> present+
16:07:19 <JuanCorona> tzviya: PWP to EPUB4 packaging: There's no strict decisions between relationship. But we want roundtripping as per charter
16:07:29 <tzviya> regrets+ Jasmine_Mulliken
16:07:33 <tzviya> q?
16:07:36 <dkaplan3> q+ clarification question
16:07:40 <dkaplan3> q+
16:07:49 <dkaplan3> q- clarification question
16:08:18 <JuanCorona> got it
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16:08:30 <Hadrien> q+
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16:08:37 <BenSchroeter> present+
16:08:46 <MustlazMS> present+
16:08:59 <tzviya> q?
16:09:05 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:09:06 <Avneesh> +1 oto Garth's mentin of uncomfort with each publication carrying reading syste
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16:09:06 <garth> q?
16:09:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
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16:10:09 <JuanCorona> deborah: lets get some clarification on garth's comment: would scripting be necessary for navigational access?
16:11:41 <josh> q+
16:11:54 <JuanCorona> (sorry, this is a bit too much for me right now to scribe, could someone take over? wolfgang? :) )
16:12:40 <garth> ack Hadrien
16:12:40 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
16:12:41 <Hadrien> http://w3c.github.io/wpub/experiments/audiobook/
16:13:20 <tzviya> q+
16:13:26 <wolfgang> hadrien: among the experiments we had - if you go on entry page, you will be able to access audiobook via TOC
16:13:44 <wolfgang> ... without scripting or WP-aware UA
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16:13:55 <Franco> present+
16:14:00 <laudrain> +1 for examples
16:14:58 <garth> q?
16:14:59 <wolfgang> garth: tremendous progress over last couple of months - audiobooks as indication that we are in the right direction - mobydick example, audiobook example
16:15:00 <tzviya> ack josh
16:15:01 <George> Audio book with navigation, do not just audio only.
16:15:18 <laudrain> +1
16:15:30 <tzviya> q-
16:15:40 <wolfgang> josh: what happens when browser totally unaware of WP ? - TOC decisive
16:16:05 <wolfgang> ... lot of contents with TOC - very close to being a WP
16:16:38 <wolfgang> ... we need a no-scripts thing for non-WP-aware UAs
16:16:46 <tzviya> zakim, close the queue
16:16:46 <Zakim> ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is closed
16:16:54 <laudrain> q?
16:16:58 <wolfgang> ... W3C documentations should be WPs
16:18:04 <wolfgang> tzviya: if you have questions or need clarification, bring it up in github
16:18:26 <wolfgang> Topic: scrolling and pagination (open issue in github)
16:18:26 <tzviya> zakim, open the queue
16:18:26 <Zakim> ok, tzviya, the speaker queue is open
16:18:27 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/207
16:18:47 <wolfgang> tzviya: Issue 207
16:19:19 <laurentlemeur> q+
16:19:23 <tzviya> ack laurentlemeur
16:19:28 <wolfgang> tzviya: disagreement over who controls what? Should we have pagination info in manifest
16:19:31 <garth> q?
16:20:08 <wolfgang> laurent: in epub3 matter of expressing a preference, not defined by the author
16:20:23 <duga> +1 laurent
16:20:37 <JuanCorona> +1 to an expression of preference
16:20:41 <garth> q?
16:20:44 <josh> q+
16:20:56 <wolfgang> ... at least in epub 4 it is a matter of preferences for the whole WP, not for individual items in readingOrder
16:21:01 <tzviya> ack josh
16:21:30 <garth> q?
16:21:34 <garth> q+
16:21:42 <wolfgang> josh: I agree strongly that the author should be able to define his/her preferences (not in 2 cols, etc.)
16:21:54 <Hadrien> expression of preference = override only for accessibility? also available as a user setting?
16:21:54 <tzviya> q+
16:21:59 <tzviya> ack garth
16:22:01 <wolfgang> ... mechanisms to define a certain layout as an author
16:22:44 <wolfgang> garth: key point is the "please don't", but not "you must not" - expression of author's preferences
16:23:17 <tzviya> ack tzviya
16:23:19 <garth> ack tzviya
16:23:20 <JuanCorona> q+
16:23:21 <wolfgang> ... UA/RS decides finally, but the author may express his preferences
16:23:38 <wolfgang> garth: content is not boss of the RS
16:23:49 <JuanCorona> q-
16:24:25 <garth> q?
16:24:25 <timCole> q+
16:24:38 <wolfgang> garth: publication-wide prefs would be a proposed piece of metadata for the whole WP which is not part of CSS
16:24:55 <tzviya> ack timCole
16:24:55 <garth> q?
16:24:56 <wolfgang> ... it is a hint
16:25:05 <zheng_xu> +1 to hint
16:25:29 <Hadrien> q+
16:25:46 <wolfgang> tim: I don't disagree overall - if we say this is a 2 col publication, we should give a CSS
16:25:53 <duga> q+
16:25:59 <JuanCorona> +1 to hinting at WP level, css for specific document
16:26:06 <bigbluehat> present+ Benjamin_Young
16:26:21 <tzviya> ack ha
16:26:21 <wolfgang> garth: CSS applies on a per-resource basis, but not to a whole WP
16:27:16 <wolfgang> hadrien: expectation what a UA should do with a WP - reader modes differ greatly -
16:27:27 <tzviya> ack duga
16:27:34 <wolfgang> ... in ucr we had several cases with pagination
16:28:08 <zheng_xu> can hear
16:28:14 <bigbluehat> s/can hear//
16:28:35 <wolfgang> brady: things that don't exist in CSS - (1) apply CSS to a collection of resources (2) pagination
16:28:52 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/207
16:28:59 <garth> q?
16:29:34 <garth> q?
16:29:36 <duga> q+
16:29:50 <garth> ack duga
16:30:20 <wolfgang> brady: seems to be uncontroversial issue - hard to implement
16:30:32 <josh> q+
16:30:46 <garth> ack josh
16:31:24 <wolfgang> josh: whatever you can do in CSS, author or publisher are allowed to do it -
16:31:41 <tzviya> q+
16:31:59 <wolfgang> ... WP as a better reader mode of the browser - problem with the web is a lot of incompatible CSS
16:32:16 <tzviya> q?
16:32:54 <wolfgang> ... WP as a way to make myriads of content fit into a RS - but more flexible than the reader mode of a browser
16:33:31 <garth> ack tzviya
16:33:46 <wolfgang> garth: we certainly will allow each of these resources to have different layout - but reader should allow for cross-resource access
16:34:39 <wolfgang> tzviya: any author should be able to use any OWP technology - not prescribing or dictating anything
16:34:42 <garth> q?
16:35:01 <bigbluehat> q+
16:35:30 <wolfgang> tzviya: we should use hints for scroll vs. paginate
16:36:03 <wolfgang> josh: value in the consistency that any book looks the same
16:36:06 <bigbluehat> q-
16:36:25 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:36:36 <wolfgang> garth: WP-aware UA should provide some level of commonality, but not a must
16:37:38 <wolfgang> ben: i-frame seamless - core feature: inherited CSS styles - importing the DOM of the iframe into the DOM of the parent
16:37:49 <wolfgang> s/ben/Benjamin/
16:37:51 <tzviya> regrets+ Jean_Kaplansky
16:38:35 <wolfgang> Benjamin: we would bring layout-relevant stuff into a config file
16:39:10 <jbuehler> +1
16:39:13 <garth> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/207#issuecomment-403538496
16:39:13 <duga> +1
16:39:15 <MustlazMS> +1
16:39:15 <JuanCorona> +1
16:39:16 <garth> +1
16:39:16 <timCole> +1
16:39:17 <josh> +1 to hints
16:39:17 <dkaplan3> +1
16:39:25 <wolfgang> tzviya: are we OK allowing hints for scroll vs. paginate
16:39:26 <wolfgang> +1
16:39:27 <clapierre> +1
16:39:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:39:30 <zheng_xu> +1 to hints
16:39:31 <rkwright> +1
16:39:32 <derekjackson> +1
16:39:37 <Hadrien> +0 because I don't know what we expect from UAs
16:39:37 <JunGamo> +1
16:40:10 <laudrain> +0 until we answer Hadrien’s question
16:40:20 <wolfgang> Topic: Republishing WD after schema.org cleanup
16:40:53 <wolfgang> garth: no official republication of WP since FPWD
16:41:15 <wolfgang> ... we want to move ahead with another WD of WP
16:42:08 <wolfgang> matt: we were wanting to get it out as is now - we have a reasonably complete infoset and Web IDL
16:42:50 <tzviya> q?
16:42:55 <wolfgang> tzviya: we would bring it to the PBG to get feedback from the Business Group
16:43:41 <wolfgang> garth: time to publish current draft!
16:44:29 <wolfgang> tzviya: take a look at it - if you are an implementer, test it out - has had a major overhaul in terms of structure
16:45:41 <wolfgang> hadrien: any meeting between authors/editors planned?
16:46:00 <wolfgang> tzviya: we can do that, be in touch
16:46:42 <wolfgang> garth: another read-through recommended - still in a very malleable stage
16:46:58 <timCole> q+
16:47:20 <wolfgang> tzviya: still will have discussions with schema.org + dave's discussions with CSS WG
16:47:20 <garth> ack timCole
16:47:22 <tzviya> ack timCole
16:47:58 <Hadrien> q+
16:48:10 <wolfgang> tim: need for looking at relationship between WP draft to PWP Draft and Annotation Draft
16:48:11 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
16:48:13 <garth> ack Hadrien
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16:49:02 <wolfgang> hadrien: PBG should have a rough idea how things will work in EPUB4 - just show the direction we're pursuing
16:49:06 <laudrain> +1
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16:49:47 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
16:49:52 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/07/09-pwg-minutes.html tzviya
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