- From: Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 11:31:35 -0400
- To: public-tt <public-tt@w3.org>
Available at
http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html
Text version:
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
25 Jul 2013
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Plh, Thierry, Pal, Sean, Glenn, Nigel, mijordan,
Thomas_Bause_Mason
Regrets
Mike
Chair
Sean
Scribe
plh
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Holiday next week
2. [5]Open actions
3. [6]issue 259
4. [7]issue 261
5. [8]issue 262
6. [9]issue 264
7. [10]issue 150
8. [11]Action items
9. [12]AOB
10. [13]Next meeting
* [14]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
Holiday next week
Next week meeting is postponed
Open actions
action-88?
<trackbot> ACTION-88 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to make sure the
TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175. -- due
2013-07-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[15]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88
[15] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88
--> [16]https://tools.iana.org/public-view/viewticket/695904
tracker for medfia type
[16] https://tools.iana.org/public-view/viewticket/695904
action-177?
<trackbot> ACTION-177 -- Glenn Adams to update local copy of
xml.xsd to use newer copy based on above link. -- due
2013-07-25 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[17]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/177
[17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/177
Glenn: I have the info but didn't get to it yet
ation-178?
action-178?
<trackbot> ACTION-178 -- Sean Hayes to open new issue(s)
describing problems with concrete encoding. -- due 2013-07-25
-- OPEN
<trackbot>
[18]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/178
[18] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/178
action-178: that's issue 264
<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-178 Open new issue(s)
describing problems with concrete encoding..
close action-178
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-178 Open new issue(s) describing
problems with concrete encoding..
action-179?
<trackbot> ACTION-179 -- Sean Hayes to follow up with plh on
ACTION-88 -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[19]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/179
[19] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/179
close action-179
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-179 Follow up with plh on ACTION-88.
action-180?
<trackbot> ACTION-180 -- Glenn Adams to ensure that 10REC
errata page is cleared after 10SE is published as REC. -- due
2013-07-25 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[20]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/180
[20] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/180
Sean: waiting on that one
action-182?
<trackbot> ACTION-182 -- Thierry Michel to create ttml2 and
ttml1 short names, to change tracker product labels as needed
-- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[21]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/182
[21] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/182
Thierry: didn't reserve it yet
Sean: main issue is to separate the two versions
action-183?
<trackbot> ACTION-183 -- Sean Hayes to work with plh on TPAC
schedule. -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[22]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/183
[22] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/183
Sean: we're clashing with Web and TV IG
plh: can we move to Thursday/Friday?
Sean: clash with HTML WG
pal: do we need more than one day?
plh: Sean: could we do Monday and Friday?
Sean: could we do Monday and Friday?
... if we get everything done on Monday, we won't need the
Friday
<tmichel> I may have a digital publishing meeting on friday
Sean: won't clash with WebTV IG and HTML WG business
<tmichel> OK
<scribe> ACTION: Thierry to check with Angel if Monday/Friday
is ok [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-184 - Check with Angel if
Monday/Friday is ok [on Thierry Michel - due 2013-08-01].
close action-183
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-183 Work with plh on TPAC schedule..
issue 259
issue-259?
<trackbot> ISSUE-259 -- Define "closest" -- raised
<trackbot>
[24]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
[24] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
The term "closest" is used a number of times. Does closest mean
12.5 = 12 or 12.5 = 13? Suggest defining closest more
precisely.
pal: hopefully, that's purely editorial. going over the
document and making sure we're clear on what closest means
<scribe> ACTION: Glenn to go through the spec for issue 259
[recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-185 - Go through the spec for issue
259 [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-08-01].
issue-260?
<trackbot> ISSUE-260 -- When agent is not @type 'character',
then should prohibit actor child. -- raised
<trackbot>
[26]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/260
[26] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/260
Glenn: if the type isn't character we shouldn't have an actor
child
... found the issue when implementing the validator tool
... agent can be person, organization, other
Nigel: in a dramatic reconstruction, you may have an actor
playing a real person
... so I would allow actor for person and character
Glenn: sounds like there is a use case for this then
... if we're going to allow for person and other, do we want a
restriction at all?
... maybe we can tweak the prose...
<scribe> ACTION: Glenn to work with Nigel to come up with a
resolution for issue 260 [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-186 - Work with Nigel to come up with
a resolution for issue 260 [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-08-01].
issue 261
issue-261?
<trackbot> ISSUE-261 -- signaling docoument profile conformance
is separate from decoder presentation requirements -- raised
<trackbot>
[28]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/261
[28] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/261
Sean: let's skip this for the moment
Nigel: from the EBU meeting, we did consider profiling
... we'd like to provide some input in our experience about
creating EBU-TT
Sean: I'd like to dedicate a special meeting on profiles, maybe
in 2 weeks
... misunderstandings about use cases
... would that work for EBU?
Nigel: I doubt we'll be ready by then
Sean: we can wait then
... it's not urgent but need to be addressed at some point
Nigel: if you want something formal, that would take more time
... I'll check with the EBU group
... for documentation of the profile issues
... we'll make sure that folks can attend
Pal: sounds like a great idea but later date better
... there is long discussion between Mike Dolan and Glenn on
the reflector
... did you look at it?
[...]
Pal: would be good to take into account the discussion there in
the EBU
Paul: issue 263 is also related
... it deals with how to specify mechanically a profile that
applies constraints on features
Sean: we need to understand what we built, if it fits the use
cases, and move from there
... there are other issues around profile that weren't close
properly either
Pal: look at the original intent from Glenn on profile
... fundamental background to understand how it's designed
today
Sean: ok, let me know when folks are ready for this discussion
Glenn: the list of features in 1.0 was something that I
produced during the CR phase of 1.0
... in order to refer technical feature that we wish to create
tests for
... it wasn't something the group did
... based on my best reading
... but we didn't go through it in details
... now we have actual practice feedback
Sean: they were useful, but we have more experience now indeed
... we may divide some of the features, inheritance, etc.
... so it's open for ttml 2
issue 262
issue-262?
<trackbot> ISSUE-262 -- tts:extent semantics if value not
supported -- raised
<trackbot>
[29]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/262
[29] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/262
Sean: Glenn, any more thought?
Glenn: initial thinking was to mandate support for auto
... so if you support extent at all, you need to interpret auto
as well
Nigel: this kind of issue should be part of the discussion on
profile
... the media support or not needs to be considered there
Glenn: agreed
... we have to draw some line somewhere because we can't
specify everything but we need better guidelines on how to
interpret those sentences
Sean: so, part of profile discussion?
Glenn: related to supported or not.
... if the agent doesn't support a value, what does it do?
Sean: can we resolve this one by removing "supported" in the
phrase?
Glenn: not sure yet
... can we do it after we're done with profiles?
Sean: sure
issue 264
issue-264?
<trackbot> ISSUE-264 -- What XML entities are valid in TTML
canonical syntax -- raised
<trackbot>
[30]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/264
[30] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/264
Sean: [summarize the issue]
... I've seen content through as copy/paste from html
... but ttml processors don't deal with those
... so we need to clarify what is or isn't supported
Glenn: appendix N refers to XML 1.0 (or 1.1)
... it defines what you get
... isn't one of those
... we could add a note for readers that don't understand these
things
<pal> +1
Glenn: we could define more, but don't like it
Sean: I'm fine with a note
... will help pointing content people to
... as it stands it's a bit open
<njm> +1
<scribe> ACTION: Glenn to add a note to appendix N on valid XML
entities [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-187 - Add a note to appendix N on
valid XML entities [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-08-01].
Glenn: applies to TTML 1.0 and TTML 2
issue 150
issue-150?
<trackbot> ISSUE-150 -- TTML XSD vallidation and extension
problem -- closed
<trackbot>
[32]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/150
[32] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/150
Sean: is there anything to discuss there?
Nigel: this is something that has come up as a real world issue
... woulde help to have a more granular version in XSD of
what's permitted
Sean: new issue or open the old one?
Glenn: let's open a new. also related to skip, lax, and strict
processing in XSD
... XSD 1.1 helps a bit
... we added ##other to resolve issue-150
... it allows foreign @ to fall through the schema
... also related issue on the purpose of the schema isn't
aligned with our definition of validity in the document
... our schema is to be used with concrete document instead of
abstract valide infoset
<scribe> ACTION: Glenn to create an issue to address the use of
other namespace vocabulary in the schema [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-188 - Create an issue to address the
use of other namespace vocabulary in the schema [on Glenn Adams
- due 2013-08-01].
Action items
close action-61
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-61 Request shortname ttml11 prior to
FPWD on TTML1.1.
Nigel: issue-179 was discussed in the EBU meeting as well
... at the moment, there is one coordinate system in TTML
... the graphic plane may have a different resolution than the
captions
... that's difference is causing some issues about what to do
... same issue in the temporal domain as well
Sean: for the HTML5 to CSS mapping, the graphic plane
resolution is independent. there is a logical pixel effectively
... I scale down to the video rectangle after that
... that gets over the whole issue
<glenn> back
Sean: but because TTML has some abstract words around pixel. we
could define a default pixel grid
... with possibility of overwriting that
<glenn> suggest we use the SVG user coordinate space model
Sean: and then transform it to the graphic plane
Nigel: scaling horizontal/vertical differences
Sean: different methods to scale
... that transformation process is outside the spec. it's for
the spec that defines the video media grid
... but ttml would keep the logical pixel grid
Nigel: I think I agree re logical coordinate system
Sean: so action-94 is to write that down
close action-129
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-129 Draft response to bring back to
the group to respond to IANA on MIME type submission..
action-141?
<trackbot> ACTION-141 -- Sean Hayes to call for Action to
identify discrepancies in TTML 1.0 on different profiles. --
due 2013-02-14 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[34]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141
[34] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141
action-143?
<trackbot> ACTION-143 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to provide
location to Glenn for unwrapped schemas. -- due 2013-02-14 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[35]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/143
[35] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/143
plh: we still want to have an unwrapped schema?
sean: it could create a server issue
close action-143
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-143 Provide location to Glenn for
unwrapped schemas..
action-164?
<trackbot> ACTION-164 -- Sean Hayes to investigate interop
issues using CSS familyName constructs -- due 2013-06-06 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[36]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164
[36] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164
issue-33?
<trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- ts:fontFamily and quotedString -- closed
<trackbot>
[37]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/33
[37] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/33
issue-223?
<trackbot> ISSUE-223 -- Need to make <familyName> consistent
with CSS syntax rules. -- closed
<trackbot>
[38]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/223
[38] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/223
Glenn: this was about the \u handling
... you'd need to transform into numeric character reference
instead
Sean: we don't define what happen with the family string...
Glenn: it's in a string, it's treated differently
Sean: I can't imagine someone using non-generic font types
Glenn: we define it...
action-164: this is about the embedded unicode mapping
<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-164 Investigate interop issues
using CSS familyName constructs.
Pal: there is an app out there that uses non-generic font
family
... so let's not break backward compatibility...
... it reference the SMPTE @@ profile
... there is a mapping defined for the font family name to an
external font file
... I'll be happy to share more details
<scribe> ACTION: Pierre to report on the use of font family
names to reference external font file resources [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-189 - Report on the use of font
family names to reference external font file resources [on
Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2013-08-01].
action-165?
<trackbot> ACTION-165 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to investigate
use cases for ISSUE-232 -- due 2013-06-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[40]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/165
[40] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/165
Pal: there is a spec that allows out there. I'll follow up
Glenn: wonder if you meant bidi in a vertical context
action-166?
<trackbot> ACTION-166 -- Mike Dolan to open issue for 1.1
regarding encodings -- due 2013-06-27 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[41]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/166
[41] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/166
close action-173
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-173 Fold issue-258 into change
proposal 15 and close 258.
close action-176
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-176 Work with W3T to lengthen
scheduled meeting to 2h.
AOB
Nigel: reporting from EBU: we're going to create a liaison
communication back to the group
... topics
... presentation style multi-row line
... might be covered by shrink-to-fit
... line row padding
... metadata
... carriage of binary data
... profiling
... ability to express date
... ie add date to the time expression
... crossing midnight present some issues
Sean: we have the ability to do clock expression, but specific
dates present challenges due to leap seconds
Glenn: it's related to the current local time midnight
... if you want to related to a different date, you have to do
something
... you could have + offset but only allow 23 hours
Sean: I think the idea is to have some metadata to specify the
start
... then we could use utc offset time
Nigel: one outcome, but something else as well. you could end
up with a 0 crossing issue
... no way to indicate that 0 crossing happened
... it can happen if you got a reference time scale that goes
up but the system might need to reboot...
Sean: ok, we'll need more details then
Nigel: understood
... one more from EBU: to confirm the meaning of a doc with no
time expression in it
... we think it's externally defined
... which is fine
Glenn: the root container temporal extent is define by the
presentation processing context
... and body is defined as a parallel construct by default
... so any text in the document would leave for as long as the
external extent exists
... you could follow throught the spec
... but maybe not be all in one paragraph
Pal: Member submission from Movielabs
... [42]https://www.w3.org/Submission/2013/02/
... happy to answer questions
... make sense in the context of the revision of the TTWG
charter
[42] https://www.w3.org/Submission/2013/02/
Sean: also input from WebTV IG on the charter
Pal: goal is not to make life even more complicated by reducing
the number of profiles
... hope it will be taken up by the group
Next meeting
Sean: in two weeks
[adjourned]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Glenn to add a note to appendix N on valid XML
entities [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Glenn to create an issue to address the use of
other namespace vocabulary in the schema [recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Glenn to go through the spec for issue 259
[recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Glenn to work with Nigel to come up with a
resolution for issue 260 [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Pierre to report on the use of font family names
to reference external font file resources [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Thierry to check with Angel if Monday/Friday is
ok [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 25 July 2013 15:31:42 UTC