W3C

Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

25 Jul 2013

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Plh, Thierry, Pal, Sean, Glenn, Nigel, mijordan, Thomas_Bause_Mason
Regrets
Mike
Chair
Sean
Scribe
plh

Contents


Holiday next week

Next week meeting is postponed

Open actions

action-88?

<trackbot> ACTION-88 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to make sure the TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175. -- due 2013-07-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88

--> https://tools.iana.org/public-view/viewticket/695904 tracker for medfia type

action-177?

<trackbot> ACTION-177 -- Glenn Adams to update local copy of xml.xsd to use newer copy based on above link. -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/177

Glenn: I have the info but didn't get to it yet

ation-178?

action-178?

<trackbot> ACTION-178 -- Sean Hayes to open new issue(s) describing problems with concrete encoding. -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/178

action-178: that's issue 264

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-178 Open new issue(s) describing problems with concrete encoding..

close action-178

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-178 Open new issue(s) describing problems with concrete encoding..

action-179?

<trackbot> ACTION-179 -- Sean Hayes to follow up with plh on ACTION-88 -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/179

close action-179

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-179 Follow up with plh on ACTION-88.

action-180?

<trackbot> ACTION-180 -- Glenn Adams to ensure that 10REC errata page is cleared after 10SE is published as REC. -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/180

Sean: waiting on that one

action-182?

<trackbot> ACTION-182 -- Thierry Michel to create ttml2 and ttml1 short names, to change tracker product labels as needed -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/182

Thierry: didn't reserve it yet

Sean: main issue is to separate the two versions

action-183?

<trackbot> ACTION-183 -- Sean Hayes to work with plh on TPAC schedule. -- due 2013-07-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/183

Sean: we're clashing with Web and TV IG

plh: can we move to Thursday/Friday?

Sean: clash with HTML WG

pal: do we need more than one day?

plh: Sean: could we do Monday and Friday?

Sean: could we do Monday and Friday?
... if we get everything done on Monday, we won't need the Friday

<tmichel> I may have a digital publishing meeting on friday

Sean: won't clash with WebTV IG and HTML WG business

<tmichel> OK

<scribe> ACTION: Thierry to check with Angel if Monday/Friday is ok [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-184 - Check with Angel if Monday/Friday is ok [on Thierry Michel - due 2013-08-01].

close action-183

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-183 Work with plh on TPAC schedule..

issue 259

issue-259?

<trackbot> ISSUE-259 -- Define "closest" -- raised

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259

The term "closest" is used a number of times. Does closest mean 12.5 = 12 or 12.5 = 13? Suggest defining closest more precisely.

pal: hopefully, that's purely editorial. going over the document and making sure we're clear on what closest means

<scribe> ACTION: Glenn to go through the spec for issue 259 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-185 - Go through the spec for issue 259 [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-08-01].

issue-260?

<trackbot> ISSUE-260 -- When agent is not @type 'character', then should prohibit actor child. -- raised

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/260

Glenn: if the type isn't character we shouldn't have an actor child
... found the issue when implementing the validator tool
... agent can be person, organization, other

Nigel: in a dramatic reconstruction, you may have an actor playing a real person
... so I would allow actor for person and character

Glenn: sounds like there is a use case for this then
... if we're going to allow for person and other, do we want a restriction at all?
... maybe we can tweak the prose...

<scribe> ACTION: Glenn to work with Nigel to come up with a resolution for issue 260 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-186 - Work with Nigel to come up with a resolution for issue 260 [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-08-01].

issue 261

issue-261?

<trackbot> ISSUE-261 -- signaling docoument profile conformance is separate from decoder presentation requirements -- raised

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/261

Sean: let's skip this for the moment

Nigel: from the EBU meeting, we did consider profiling
... we'd like to provide some input in our experience about creating EBU-TT

Sean: I'd like to dedicate a special meeting on profiles, maybe in 2 weeks
... misunderstandings about use cases
... would that work for EBU?

Nigel: I doubt we'll be ready by then

Sean: we can wait then
... it's not urgent but need to be addressed at some point

Nigel: if you want something formal, that would take more time
... I'll check with the EBU group
... for documentation of the profile issues
... we'll make sure that folks can attend

Pal: sounds like a great idea but later date better
... there is long discussion between Mike Dolan and Glenn on the reflector
... did you look at it?

[...]

Pal: would be good to take into account the discussion there in the EBU

Paul: issue 263 is also related
... it deals with how to specify mechanically a profile that applies constraints on features

Sean: we need to understand what we built, if it fits the use cases, and move from there
... there are other issues around profile that weren't close properly either

Pal: look at the original intent from Glenn on profile
... fundamental background to understand how it's designed today

Sean: ok, let me know when folks are ready for this discussion

Glenn: the list of features in 1.0 was something that I produced during the CR phase of 1.0
... in order to refer technical feature that we wish to create tests for
... it wasn't something the group did
... based on my best reading
... but we didn't go through it in details
... now we have actual practice feedback

Sean: they were useful, but we have more experience now indeed
... we may divide some of the features, inheritance, etc.
... so it's open for ttml 2

issue 262

issue-262?

<trackbot> ISSUE-262 -- tts:extent semantics if value not supported -- raised

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/262

Sean: Glenn, any more thought?

Glenn: initial thinking was to mandate support for auto
... so if you support extent at all, you need to interpret auto as well

Nigel: this kind of issue should be part of the discussion on profile
... the media support or not needs to be considered there

Glenn: agreed
... we have to draw some line somewhere because we can't specify everything but we need better guidelines on how to interpret those sentences

Sean: so, part of profile discussion?

Glenn: related to supported or not.
... if the agent doesn't support a value, what does it do?

Sean: can we resolve this one by removing "supported" in the phrase?

Glenn: not sure yet
... can we do it after we're done with profiles?

Sean: sure

issue 264

issue-264?

<trackbot> ISSUE-264 -- What XML entities are valid in TTML canonical syntax -- raised

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/264

Sean: [summarize the issue]
... I've seen content through as copy/paste from html
... but ttml processors don't deal with those
... so we need to clarify what is or isn't supported

Glenn: appendix N refers to XML 1.0 (or 1.1)
... it defines what you get
... &nbsp; isn't one of those
... we could add a note for readers that don't understand these things

<pal> +1

Glenn: we could define more, but don't like it

Sean: I'm fine with a note
... will help pointing content people to
... as it stands it's a bit open

<njm> +1

<scribe> ACTION: Glenn to add a note to appendix N on valid XML entities [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-187 - Add a note to appendix N on valid XML entities [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-08-01].

Glenn: applies to TTML 1.0 and TTML 2

issue 150

issue-150?

<trackbot> ISSUE-150 -- TTML XSD vallidation and extension problem -- closed

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/150

Sean: is there anything to discuss there?

Nigel: this is something that has come up as a real world issue
... woulde help to have a more granular version in XSD of what's permitted

Sean: new issue or open the old one?

Glenn: let's open a new. also related to skip, lax, and strict processing in XSD
... XSD 1.1 helps a bit
... we added ##other to resolve issue-150
... it allows foreign @ to fall through the schema
... also related issue on the purpose of the schema isn't aligned with our definition of validity in the document
... our schema is to be used with concrete document instead of abstract valide infoset

<scribe> ACTION: Glenn to create an issue to address the use of other namespace vocabulary in the schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-188 - Create an issue to address the use of other namespace vocabulary in the schema [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-08-01].

Action items

close action-61

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-61 Request shortname ttml11 prior to FPWD on TTML1.1.

Nigel: issue-179 was discussed in the EBU meeting as well
... at the moment, there is one coordinate system in TTML
... the graphic plane may have a different resolution than the captions
... that's difference is causing some issues about what to do
... same issue in the temporal domain as well

Sean: for the HTML5 to CSS mapping, the graphic plane resolution is independent. there is a logical pixel effectively
... I scale down to the video rectangle after that
... that gets over the whole issue

<glenn> back

Sean: but because TTML has some abstract words around pixel. we could define a default pixel grid
... with possibility of overwriting that

<glenn> suggest we use the SVG user coordinate space model

Sean: and then transform it to the graphic plane

Nigel: scaling horizontal/vertical differences

Sean: different methods to scale
... that transformation process is outside the spec. it's for the spec that defines the video media grid
... but ttml would keep the logical pixel grid

Nigel: I think I agree re logical coordinate system

Sean: so action-94 is to write that down

close action-129

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-129 Draft response to bring back to the group to respond to IANA on MIME type submission..

action-141?

<trackbot> ACTION-141 -- Sean Hayes to call for Action to identify discrepancies in TTML 1.0 on different profiles. -- due 2013-02-14 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141

action-143?

<trackbot> ACTION-143 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to provide location to Glenn for unwrapped schemas. -- due 2013-02-14 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/143

plh: we still want to have an unwrapped schema?

sean: it could create a server issue

close action-143

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-143 Provide location to Glenn for unwrapped schemas..

action-164?

<trackbot> ACTION-164 -- Sean Hayes to investigate interop issues using CSS familyName constructs -- due 2013-06-06 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/164

issue-33?

<trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- ts:fontFamily and quotedString -- closed

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/33

issue-223?

<trackbot> ISSUE-223 -- Need to make <familyName> consistent with CSS syntax rules. -- closed

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/223

Glenn: this was about the \u handling
... you'd need to transform into numeric character reference instead

Sean: we don't define what happen with the family string...

Glenn: it's in a string, it's treated differently

Sean: I can't imagine someone using non-generic font types

Glenn: we define it...

action-164: this is about the embedded unicode mapping

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-164 Investigate interop issues using CSS familyName constructs.

Pal: there is an app out there that uses non-generic font family
... so let's not break backward compatibility...
... it reference the SMPTE @@ profile
... there is a mapping defined for the font family name to an external font file
... I'll be happy to share more details

<scribe> ACTION: Pierre to report on the use of font family names to reference external font file resources [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-189 - Report on the use of font family names to reference external font file resources [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2013-08-01].

action-165?

<trackbot> ACTION-165 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to investigate use cases for ISSUE-232 -- due 2013-06-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/165

Pal: there is a spec that allows out there. I'll follow up

Glenn: wonder if you meant bidi in a vertical context

action-166?

<trackbot> ACTION-166 -- Mike Dolan to open issue for 1.1 regarding encodings -- due 2013-06-27 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/166

close action-173

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-173 Fold issue-258 into change proposal 15 and close 258.

close action-176

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-176 Work with W3T to lengthen scheduled meeting to 2h.

AOB

Nigel: reporting from EBU: we're going to create a liaison communication back to the group
... topics
... presentation style multi-row line
... might be covered by shrink-to-fit
... line row padding
... metadata
... carriage of binary data
... profiling
... ability to express date
... ie add date to the time expression
... crossing midnight present some issues

Sean: we have the ability to do clock expression, but specific dates present challenges due to leap seconds

Glenn: it's related to the current local time midnight
... if you want to related to a different date, you have to do something
... you could have + offset but only allow 23 hours

Sean: I think the idea is to have some metadata to specify the start
... then we could use utc offset time

Nigel: one outcome, but something else as well. you could end up with a 0 crossing issue
... no way to indicate that 0 crossing happened
... it can happen if you got a reference time scale that goes up but the system might need to reboot...

Sean: ok, we'll need more details then

Nigel: understood
... one more from EBU: to confirm the meaning of a doc with no time expression in it
... we think it's externally defined
... which is fine

Glenn: the root container temporal extent is define by the presentation processing context
... and body is defined as a parallel construct by default
... so any text in the document would leave for as long as the external extent exists
... you could follow throught the spec
... but maybe not be all in one paragraph

Pal: Member submission from Movielabs
... https://www.w3.org/Submission/2013/02/
... happy to answer questions
... make sense in the context of the revision of the TTWG charter

Sean: also input from WebTV IG on the charter

Pal: goal is not to make life even more complicated by reducing the number of profiles
... hope it will be taken up by the group

Next meeting

Sean: in two weeks

[adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Glenn to add a note to appendix N on valid XML entities [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Glenn to create an issue to address the use of other namespace vocabulary in the schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Glenn to go through the spec for issue 259 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Glenn to work with Nigel to come up with a resolution for issue 260 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Pierre to report on the use of font family names to reference external font file resources [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Thierry to check with Angel if Monday/Friday is ok [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/07/25-tt-minutes.html#action01]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2013-07-25 15:29:15 $