See also: IRC log
<allanj> finished SC get posted to WCAG https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/
<allanj> scribe: johnr
<shawn> scribenick: JohnRochford
Jim: Laura suggests "legend or a key" for the related technique
<laura> Welcome Glenda!
Glenda The Good Witch has joined the task force
<allanj> WCAG TPAC meeting information - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016
<ScottM> Welcome Glenda!
Glenda: JF just approved me
<allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Informational_Graphic_Contrast_%28Minimum%29
Jim: The contrast ratio of some gifs is insufficient to distinquish tex
text
Jim and Laura: 2.1 focus indicator is in another SC
<allanj> updated - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Tracking_Success_Criteria_Progress
Laura: To 1.4.3, we are adding "interactive images, form field borders, and focus indicators"
Glenda: Did we consider 3:1?
Wayne: Yes, but we decided upon 4.5:1
John: It was I who asked if we needed to vote on a resolution.
Glenda: I suggest we place "active" before "user interface controls".
<allanj> you can make things hidden
<allanj> inactive = greyed out
Scott:
<allanj> glenda: they are hard to see, but if we increase the contrast, then it looks active and creates a usability problem
Scott: I don't like that an active control is greyed out when it is inactive. It's hard to see.
<shawn> [ ideal situation is disabled indicated by other than color alone ... although that not smooth in some cases ]
<AWK_> +AWK
<allanj> gs: even at 3:1 contrast looks like it is active. conundrum
<shawn> [ agree issue that inactive with high contrast makes it hard to distinguish active & inactive ]
<ScottM> If high contrast mode is used all color vanishes
<allanj> gs: need some good techniques
Shawn: The ideal situation is that active or inactive is indicated by something other than color alone.
<AWK_> Can a user style sheet key off of the inactive=true attribute setting for customization?
<ScottM> inactive=true isn't universally used, in some cases people just use a style with a color for disabled items
<John_Rochford> AWK: A big X could be used to show inactive controls. User style sheet could define.
<John_Rochford> Glenda: Rescinds suggestion about including "active".
<ScottM> What about striketh
<laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Seeing_All_Interface_Elements
<John_Rochford> along with "user interface controls"
<laura> Shawn it was: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/track/actions/69
<John_Rochford> Wayne: Do we need failure techniques for color contrast?
<allanj> awk: not using color alone, what about saturation.
<John_Rochford> AWK: There could be a comment about the elements of color (e.g., saturation and hue)
<John_Rochford> Jim: Is the W3C going to redefine color?
<John_Rochford> Glenda: Would be nice to have a color definition in the glossary.
<laura> relative luminance: https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#relativeluminancedef
<ScottM> Doesn't what we cover already extend beyond hue?
<John_Rochford> Jim: Should the LVTF take up defining color?
<John_Rochford> AWK: We should make sure it gets an "amount of attention".
<John_Rochford> Scott: We should define color so that there is no way people could "wiggle out".
<John_Rochford> Wayne: Color has been defined via RGB.
<John_Rochford> AWK: Color is going to come up when we talk about inactive elements.
<John_Rochford> Jim: I'm happy with leaving this (color), but setting up an action item so we don't forget it.
<John_Rochford> Jim: Any objections to marking it as final?
<ScottM> not from me, go for it
<John_Rochford> Jim: We shall call this one done.
<AWK_> of note for the color/hue issue: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014AprJun/0062.html
<allanj> jr: will developers have to test with every UA.
<John_Rochford> AWK: No (short version)
<allanj> awk: they would test against the UAs in their conformance claim
<John_Rochford> Laura: We lost "without assistive technology".
<John_Rochford> Laura: in the refinement
<John_Rochford> AWK: What do browsers go up to in terms of size?
<John_Rochford> Wayne and Jim: Chrome = 5; IE = 6
<allanj> proposed: Except for images of text, and captions with time-based media, text can be resized without assistive technology to the user agent maximum without loss of content and functionality.
<Glenda> +1 to including the phrase “captions with time-based media”
<allanj> captions - seem to scale with scaling of the video when scaling the page
<allanj> jr: does the sc include the legibility of the text
<allanj> jr: when zooming elements start overlapping, making the content illegible
<ScottM> Zoom is not the same as text enlargement
<allanj> discussion of zooming.
<allanj> ja: margins do not enlarge. should that be "should not"
<allanj> wd: yes
<allanj> ja: fixed
<Wayne> scribe: wayne
<ScottM> Zoom is NOT text enlargement
<allanj> wd: when you zoom, the text behaves. not sure what picture
<Zakim> AWK_, you wanted to suggest "captions for time-based media" and to suggest that perhaps captions for time-based media shouldn't be excluded
<ScottM> Do the browser text sizing affect captions?
<allanj> awk: why exclude captions. in FCC rules. if you need bigger text even in captions, should be needed.
<Glenda> +1 lets include caption text too!
<allanj> awk: if say just for text. some might say but captions are part of the text. for some videos captions are part of the video, not a separate text track
<allanj> ... perhaps have a separate item for captions
<allanj> awk: if we don't exclude it, then it is included
AWK: We should include captions in videos? If we don't exclude it, people will do it.
<laura> +1 to removing
caption loophole
...: If we don't exclude we create a loophole.
<Glenda> no objections :)
<allanj> +1
AllanJ: Remove time based media...
<allanj> proposed: Except for images of text, text can be resized without assistive technology to @@the user agent maximum without loss of content and functionality.
<allanj> Except for images of text, text can be resized without assistive technology to the user agent maximum without loss of content and functionality.
AllenJ: After considerable discussion we came back to the original.
<allanj> scott: this SC is not zooming, if we mention zooming it should be removed.
<shawn> [ many browsers also provide functionality to zoom text only ]
<allanj> awk: zooming not prohibited. if the UA only zoomed the designer would still have to meet the reflow.
<laura> 2 Separate SCs.
<allanj> scott: text enlargement only is a different set of issues for developers.
<laura> Text Size SC
<laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Text_Size
<laura> Size of all elements
<laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Size_of_all_elements
<allanj> wayne: right, developers need to handle it.
<allanj> scott: make sure terminology is distinct. Text-size only vs size of all elements
<allanj> description -- Simply Put: A person can increase or decrease text-size only. Pictures, diagrams and videos don't change. A Key functionality to preserve is that complete lines of text fit within the viewport. For any block of text, the last word of a line is the immediate predecessor of the first word in the next line in reading order. No exceptions. Also, text fits within bounding boxes,...
<allanj> ...lines, and columns if present. Finally, margins should not change with text size.
ScottM: Remove Zoom and replace
it with resize text.
... Does changing text size does caaption change?
AWK: If you are using native captions, and they are on top of the video. With Flash there are ways to have it on top.
<Zakim> question, you wanted to comment on “and videos don’t change” (confusion between video image versus caption text in video)
Glenda: I was worried about the phrase. We could say "imagery in video".
<allanj> ja: the text size of captions changes but not the size of the video.
<Glenda> non-text video content doesn’t change
<allanj> Simply Put: A person can increase or decrease text-size only. Non-text content does not change. A Key functionality to preserve is that complete lines of text fit within the viewport. For any block of text, the last word of a line is the immediate predecessor of the first word in the next line in reading order. No exceptions. Also, text fits within bounding boxes, lines, and columns if...
<allanj> ...present. Finally, margins should not change with text size.
<Glenda> +1 to removing “Simply Put:”
<Glenda> no objections :)
<ScottM> do it
<laura> Fine with me.
<allanj> any objections to marking Text Size as final
<allanj> none
<shawn> [ the big quotes are in the CSS -- we can change that :-]
<allanj> sending 5 SC to WCAG
<allanj> trackbot, end meeting
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