15:00:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
15:00:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/15-lvtf-irc
15:00:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:00:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:00:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:00:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:00:53 <trackbot> Date: 15 September 2016
15:00:55 <shawn> chair: Jim
15:01:11 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:11 <Zakim> Present: allanj, Wayne
15:01:21 <laura> present+ Laura
15:01:31 <shawn> present+ Shawn, Laura, Scott, JohnR
15:01:33 <JohnRochford> present+ JohnRochford
15:02:03 <shawn> present- JohnR
15:02:05 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:05 <Zakim> Present: allanj, Wayne, Laura, Shawn, Scott, JohnRochford
15:02:15 <allanj> finished SC get posted to WCAG https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/
15:02:53 <shawn> Present+ ErichM
15:03:01 <allanj> scribe: johnr
15:03:17 <allanj> zakim, open item 1
15:03:17 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Contrast: Informational Graphics <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Informational_Graphic_Contrast_%28Minimum%29>" taken up [from allanj]
15:03:18 <shawn> scribenick: JohnRochford
15:03:45 <erich_manser> erich_manser has joined #LVTF
15:06:42 <JF> JF has joined #lvtf
15:06:51 <JohnRochford> Jim: Laura suggests "legend or a key" for the related technique
15:08:45 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Informational_Graphic_Contrast_(Minimum)#New_Techniques
15:10:53 <shawn> present+ Glenda
15:10:55 <laura> Welcome Glenda!
15:11:12 <JohnRochford> Glenda The Good Witch has joined the task force
15:11:32 <allanj> WCAG TPAC meeting information - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016
15:12:14 <ScottM> Welcome Glenda!
15:12:31 <JohnRochford> Glenda: JF just approved me
15:12:44 <allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Informational_Graphic_Contrast_%28Minimum%29
15:14:23 <JohnRochford> Jim: The contrast ratio of some gifs is insufficient to distinquish tex
15:14:27 <JohnRochford> text
15:15:34 <JohnRochford> Jim and Laura: 2.1 focus indicator is in another SC
15:15:39 <allanj> updated - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Tracking_Success_Criteria_Progress
15:16:04 <allanj> zakim, open next item
15:16:04 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Contrast: Interactive Element <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_%28Minimum%29>" taken up [from allanj]
15:19:09 <JohnRochford> Laura: To 1.4.3, we are adding "interactive images, form field borders, and focus indicators"
15:20:18 <JohnRochford> Glenda: Did we consider 3:1?
15:20:36 <JohnRochford> Wayne: Yes, but we decided upon 4.5:1
15:22:24 <JohnRochford> John: It was I who asked if we needed to vote on a resolution.
15:22:44 <allanj> zakim, open next item
15:22:44 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Seeing All Interface Elements <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Seeing_All_Interface_Elements>" taken up [from allanj]
15:24:23 <JohnRochford> Glenda: I suggest we place "active" before "user interface controls".
15:24:38 <allanj> you can make things hidden
15:26:04 <allanj> inactive = greyed out
15:26:21 <JohnRochford> Scott:
15:26:59 <allanj> glenda: they are hard to see, but if we increase the contrast, then it looks active and creates a usability problem
15:27:01 <JohnRochford> Scott: I don't like that an active control is greyed out when it is inactive. It's hard to see.
15:27:04 <shawn> [ ideal situation is disabled indicated by other than color alone ... although that not smooth in some cases ]
15:27:36 <AWK_> AWK_ has joined #lvtf
15:27:43 <AWK_> +AWK
15:28:00 <allanj> gs: even at 3:1 contrast looks like it is active. conundrum
15:28:05 <shawn> [ agree issue that inactive with high contrast makes it hard to distinguish active & inactive ]
15:28:13 <shawn> q+
15:28:17 <ScottM> If high contrast mode is used all color vanishes
15:29:16 <allanj> gs: need some good techniques
15:29:28 <JohnRochford> Sean: The ideal situation is that active or inactive is indicated by something other than color alone.
15:30:05 <JohnRochford> Shawn, not Sean
15:30:19 <AWK_> Can a user style sheet key off of the inactive=true attribute setting for customization?
15:30:53 <shawn> s/Sean: The ideal/Shawn: The ideal
15:32:38 <JF> JF has joined #lvtf
15:32:44 <ScottM> inactive=true isn't universally used, in some cases people just use a style with a color for disabled items
15:32:48 <shawn> s/Shawn, not Sean//
15:32:57 <John_Rochford> John_Rochford has joined #lvtf
15:33:54 <John_Rochford> AWK: A big X could be used to show inactive controls. User style sheet could define.
15:35:03 <John_Rochford> Glenda: Rescinds suggestion about including "active".
15:35:10 <ScottM> What about striketh
15:35:12 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Seeing_All_Interface_Elements
15:35:20 <John_Rochford> along with "user interface controls"
15:35:26 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #lvtf
15:36:45 <JF> JF has left #lvtf
15:37:51 <laura> Shawn it was: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/track/actions/69
15:38:03 <John_Rochford> Wayne: Do we need failure techniques for color contrast?
15:38:50 <allanj> awk: not using color alone, what about saturation.
15:38:54 <John_Rochford> AWK: There could be a comment about the elements of color (e.g., saturation and hue)
15:39:36 <John_Rochford> Jim: Is the W3C going to redefine color?
15:40:00 <John_Rochford> Glenda: Would be nice to have a color definition in the glossary.
15:40:40 <laura> relative luminance: https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#relativeluminancedef
15:40:47 <ScottM> Doesn't what we cover already extend beyond hue?
15:41:01 <John_Rochford> Jim: Should the LVTF take up defining color?
15:41:31 <John_Rochford> AWK: We should make sure it gets an "amount of attention".
15:42:26 <John_Rochford> Scott: We should define color so that there is no way people could "wiggle out".
15:42:49 <John_Rochford> Wayne: Color has been defined via RGB.
15:44:46 <John_Rochford> AWK: Color is going to come up when we talk about inactive elements.
15:45:41 <John_Rochford> Jim: I'm happy with leaving this (color), but setting up an action item so we don't forget it.
15:46:09 <John_Rochford> Jim: Any objections to marking it as final?
15:46:47 <ScottM> not from me, go for it
15:47:04 <John_Rochford> Jim: We shall call this one done.
15:47:07 <allanj> zakim, open next item
15:47:07 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, allanj
15:47:28 <allanj> zakim, who is on the queue
15:47:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the queue', allanj
15:47:28 <AWK_> of note for the color/hue issue: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014AprJun/0062.html
15:47:31 <AWK_> q?
15:47:35 <AWK_> ack sh
15:47:42 <allanj> zakim, open next item
15:47:42 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Text Size <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Text_Size>" taken up [from allanj]
15:50:08 <allanj> jr: will developers have to test with every UA.
15:50:20 <John_Rochford> AWK: No (short version)
15:50:44 <allanj> awk: they would test against the UAs in their conformance claim
15:51:32 <John_Rochford> Laura: We lost "without assistive technology".
15:51:49 <John_Rochford> Laura: in the refinement
15:52:49 <John_Rochford> AWK: What do browsers go up to in terms of size?
15:53:15 <John_Rochford> Wayne and Jim: Chrome = 5; IE = 6
15:53:59 <allanj> proposed: Except for images of text, and captions with time-based media, text can be resized without assistive technology to the user agent maximum without loss of content and functionality.
15:55:03 <John_Rochford> q+
15:55:17 <Glenda> +1 to including the phrase “captions with time-based media”
15:55:44 <allanj> captions - seem to scale with scaling of the video when scaling the page
15:55:51 <ScottM> q+
15:56:12 <allanj> jr: does the sc include the legibility of the text
15:56:17 <allanj> ack j
15:57:42 <allanj> jr: when zooming elements start overlapping, making the content illegible
15:58:47 <ScottM> Zoom is not the same as text enlargement
15:59:46 <allanj> discussion of zooming.
16:00:19 <allanj> ja: margins do not enlarge. should that be "should not"
16:00:26 <allanj> wd: yes
16:00:33 <allanj> ja: fixed
16:00:35 <Wayne> scribe: wayne
16:01:45 <ScottM> Zoom is NOT text enlargement
16:01:47 <AWK_> q+ to suggest "captions for time-based media"
16:02:22 <AWK_> q+ to suggest that perhaps captions for time-based media shouldn't be excluded
16:02:58 <allanj> wd: when you zoom, the text behaves. not sure what picture
16:03:04 <AWK_> ack awk
16:03:04 <Zakim> AWK_, you wanted to suggest "captions for time-based media" and to suggest that perhaps captions for time-based media shouldn't be excluded
16:03:41 <ScottM> Do the browser text sizing affect captions?
16:04:19 <allanj> awk: why exclude captions. in FCC rules. if you need bigger text even in captions, should be needed.
16:04:31 <Glenda> +1 lets include caption text too!
16:05:26 <allanj> awk: if say just for text. some might say but captions are part of the text. for some videos captions are part of the video, not a separate text track
16:05:45 <allanj> ... perhaps have a separate item for captions
16:06:16 <allanj> awk: if we don't exclude it, then it is included
16:06:21 <Wayne> AWK: We should include captions in videos? If we don't exclude it, people will do it.
16:06:52 <laura> +1 to removing caption loophole
16:06:53 <Wayne> ...: If we don't exclude we create a loophole.
16:07:00 <Glenda> no objections :)
16:07:05 <allanj> +1
16:07:19 <Wayne> AllanJ: Remove time based media...
16:07:25 <allanj> proposed: Except for images of text, text can be resized without assistive technology to @@the user agent maximum without loss of content and functionality.
16:07:44 <allanj> Except for images of text, text can be resized without assistive technology to the user agent maximum without loss of content and functionality.
16:09:08 <allanj> ack s
16:09:48 <Wayne> AllenJ: After considerable discussion we came back to the original.
16:09:49 <allanj> scott: this SC is not zooming, if we mention zooming it should be removed.
16:09:50 <shawn> [ many browsers also provide functionality to zoom text only ]
16:10:42 <allanj> awk: zooming not prohibited. if the UA only zoomed the designer would still have to meet the reflow.
16:11:12 <laura> 2 Separate SCs.
16:11:12 <allanj> scott: text enlargement only is a different set of issues for developers.
16:11:14 <laura> Text Size SC
16:11:14 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Text_Size
16:11:19 <laura> Size of all elements
16:11:20 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Size_of_all_elements
16:12:02 <allanj> wayne: right, developers need to handle it.
16:12:41 <allanj> scott: make sure terminology is distinct. Text-size only vs size of all elements
16:14:41 <allanj> description -- Simply Put: A person can increase or decrease text-size only. Pictures, diagrams and videos don't change. A Key functionality to preserve is that complete lines of text fit within the viewport. For any block of text, the last word of a line is the immediate predecessor of the first word in the next line in reading order. No exceptions. Also, text fits within bounding boxes,...
16:14:42 <allanj> ...lines, and columns if present. Finally, margins should not change with text size.
16:16:40 <Wayne> ScottM: Remove Zoom and replace it with resize text.
16:17:34 <Wayne> ScottM: Does changing text size does caaption change?
16:18:08 <Glenda> q+ question on “and videos don’t change” (confusion between video image versus caption text in video)
16:19:19 <Wayne> AWK: If you are using native captions, and they are on top of the video. With Flash there are ways to have it on top.
16:19:26 <allanj> ack q
16:19:26 <Zakim> question, you wanted to comment on “and videos don’t change” (confusion between video image versus caption text in video)
16:20:36 <Wayne> Glenda: I was worried about the phrase. We could say "imagery in video".
16:22:05 <allanj> ja: the text size of captions changes but not the size of the video.
16:23:03 <Glenda> non-text video content doesn’t change
16:24:01 <allanj> Simply Put: A person can increase or decrease text-size only. Non-text content does not change. A Key functionality to preserve is that complete lines of text fit within the viewport. For any block of text, the last word of a line is the immediate predecessor of the first word in the next line in reading order. No exceptions. Also, text fits within bounding boxes, lines, and columns if...
16:24:03 <allanj> ...present. Finally, margins should not change with text size.
16:25:19 <Glenda> +1 to removing “Simply Put:”
16:25:55 <Glenda> no objections :)
16:26:27 <ScottM> do it
16:26:36 <laura> Fine with me.
16:26:41 <allanj> any objections to marking Text Size as final
16:26:44 <allanj> none
16:26:55 <shawn> [ the big quotes are in the CSS -- we can change that :-]
16:27:23 <allanj> sending 5 SC to WCAG
16:29:45 <allanj> trackbot, end meeting
16:29:45 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:29:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been allanj, Wayne, Laura, Shawn, Scott, JohnR, JohnRochford, ErichM, Glenda, AWK
16:29:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:29:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/15-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:29:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:29:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items