From W3C Wiki

Social Web Working Group Teleconference

10 Mar 2015


See also: IRC log


+1.971.275.aaaa, AdamB, aaronpk, Arnaud, +1.401.305.aabb, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme, bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, rhiaro, Sandro, bill-looby, bret, harry, jasnell, +1.408.335.aacc, KevinMarks
aaronpk, AnnB


Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: bblfish to testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [recorded in]
[NEW] ACTION: hhalpin to add details to issue-18 [recorded in]
[NEW] ACTION: rhiaro to acquire SQLdump of OpenSocial site database and upload somewhere [recorded in]
[NEW] ACTION: testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [recorded in]

<aaronpk> Zakim: aaaa is aaronpk

<aaronpk> ugh who decided on comma syntax

<Arnaud> trackbot, start meeting

<tantek> hmm - Zakim is not answering again

<tantek> lol restarted

<aaronpk> wow so much noise

<aaronpk> weird, my phone is on mute

<ben_thatmustbeme> aarokpk, could be the line, I don't trust phone mutes

<aaronpk> elf-pavlik: nope

<AnnB> elf, do you hear anything besides music?

<AnnB> w3c doesn't usually have music when on hold

<tantek> how would you describe the music?

<AnnB> (can you imagine the discussions on which music to play?)

<aaronpk> AnnB++

<Loqi> AnnB has 6 karma

<AnnB> haha

<Lloyd_Fassett> music: the first interoperable social standard

<AnnB> Lloyd ++

<ben_thatmustbeme> and the snow is melting up here

<ben_thatmustbeme> its been a beautiful 40

<AnnB> yak trax .. fantastic for ice

<SimonTennant1> Hi AnnB

<hhalpin> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 10 March 2015

<tantek> scribenick: aaronpk

<elf-pavlik> chair: tantek

<elf-pavlik> agenda:

tantek: next week there is no telcon because of f2f
... any objections to telcon for the week after?
... next telcon is schedule for the 24th as usual unless there are any objections

minutes from last week

tantek: any problems/suggestions for the minutes?

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1

tantek: anyone want to expliclty express support?

<elf-pavlik> +1


tantek: not hearing objections and some support, declare minutes approved

f2f meeting

tantek: please review the f2f wiki page


tantek: lots of description there for how to get to the venue
... looks li ke 13 participants and 3 additional observers
... in particular a couple observers fro mthe annotations WG, hope to get good cross-collaboration
... if you have specific items for the agenda, feel free to add them
... if you think you know what larger topic they fall under add them as a sublist
... please sign your agenda item so we know who is responsible for the discussion
... sandro, did you have any other suggestions?

<elf-pavlik> sandro++

Arnaud: food is provided by sandro, courtesy of a grant by QCRI

<Loqi> sandro has 1 karma

<AdamB> sandro++

<Loqi> sandro has 2 karma

tantek: meeting is at 9am, are we feeding ourselves for breakfast?

<jasnell> Zakim mute me

sandro: we could order a fruit platter and coffee

tantek: that would be a great minimum viable breakfast, let's do that and set it at 8:30

<Loqi> minimumviablebreakfast has 1 karma

<bret> lol

sandro: i'll make sure everything is ready at 8

AnnB: would be hlepful if people get there at 8:30 to start setting up their stuff

<hhalpin> +1 food from Sandro's grant!!

tantek: great, looking forward to seeing everyone at 8:30, dress warmly!

Tracking of Actions and Issues

open issues

tantek: will open to the floor to address any open issues


<elf-pavlik> action-5

<trackbot> action-5 -- Harry Halpin to See if bradfitz did sign on off w3c owf licensing. -- due 2014-11-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW


hhalpin: i'd like to close out all my actions except for 14

<elf-pavlik> action-12

<trackbot> action-12 -- Harry Halpin to Get clarification on PubSubHubbub -- due 2014-11-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW


<elf-pavlik> action-31

<trackbot> action-31 -- Harry Halpin to Will ask w3c systeam about prospect for archiving osf blog posts and perhaps other content -- due 2015-01-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW


hhalpin: basically brad fitzpatrick has not signed off on w3c licensing so pubsubhubbub cannot be normatively referenced

<bret> is that because google wont let them?

<elf-pavlik> action-40

<trackbot> action-40 -- Harry Halpin to Invite annotations wg -- due 2015-03-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW


hhalpin: we asked explicltly in november and he said no

<tantek> elf-pavlik: please slow down

hhalpin: i don't think it's worth me pursuing

<tantek> let's take them one at a time

hhalpin: w3c said no they won't host the opensocial blog

<tantek> action-5 completed - no agreement to license.

hhalpin: annotations wg we already have people joining

<tantek> action-12 same as action-5

hhalpin: just finished talkign with wendy and tim about normaitve referecning of microformats and schema

<elf-pavlik> hhalpin++

<Loqi> hhalpin has 1 karma

hhalpin: it's on their agenda to have an official response

<ben_thatmustbeme> hhalpin++ that was a lot

<Loqi> hhalpin has 2 karma

hhalpin: tim and wendy will be around during the f2f

<elf-pavlik> close action-5

<trackbot> Closed action-5.

<hhalpin> Basically, the question over normative references to non-W3C specs

<elf-pavlik> close action-12

<trackbot> Closed action-12.

<hhalpin> for the case of both microformats and

<hhalpin> is currently being pursued by W3M

<tantek> I asked about whether it had to do with openstand

<elf-pavlik> close action-40

<trackbot> Closed action-40.

<hhalpin> in particular, the question is compatibility of microformats with OpenStand (should not be a problem)

<elf-pavlik> close action-31

<trackbot> Closed action-31.

<hhalpin> but there may be a legal issue around patent non-asserts (OWFa) and W3C royalty-free

<hhalpin> I think Wendy will give that some cycles

<hhalpin> I am not a lawyer so I can't answer that type of question.

<ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: loop me in specifically on any discussion of Microformats licensing, as i specifically discussed that with Mozilla legal

<hhalpin> Basically, my non-legal opinion is OWFa seems in same space as Note Well from IETF

<hhalpin> and thus should probably be OK (it would *not* be OK if there was no patent commits)

<hhalpin> but I'm not a lawyer

tantek: I think the issue harry notices is when w3c can and should reference things developed outside the w3c

<hhalpin> so I think looping in Mozilla legal with Wendy Seltzer and W3C may be a good idea

<Loqi> Alehors made 4 edits to Socialwg/2015-03-17

tantek: it means that each individual WG has to go through this and ask these questions
... i'm really thankful to harry for going through it

<elf-pavlik> hhalpin++

<Loqi> hhalpin has 3 karma

tantek: it's important for a w3c grouip to be able to reference rather than monolithicallybring everything into the w3c

<AnnB> thanks for the overview

<hhalpin> I think here is current policy:


<hhalpin> But determining if a single spec matches that is hard sometimes

<bret> dont forget AnnB's q

tantek: so that leaves us with just the one open action for you?

hhalpin: yes because i don't ersonally work with CONNEG (issue-14)

<AnnB> thanks, bret; Tantek's overview answered it

hhalpin: 14 is open, everything else should be closed

<elf-pavlik> i just closed most of them!

<bret> ah ok

hhalpin: 41 we can say pending review


hhalpin: do note there is a normative reference policy wich I dropped the link to

<tantek> action-37

<trackbot> action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN


<elf-pavlik> action-37

<trackbot> action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN


hhalpin: the question was how do you test a data format
... the answer was effectively the testing team said if you ahve an API that consumes then test the APIs
... if we *can* test a precise wayt he w3c appreciates it

tantek: presumably the way to test s data format is to write a validator, we have that with html and css, was that option considered?

hhalpin: a validator would be sufficient if there were rules we could put into a w3c validator
... the w3c validation team only has so much time, so if we wrote our own validation rules they could do that

<jasnell> +1

tantek: could you add that option expliciltly? the WG sould consider writing a validator for activitystreams

<elf-pavlik> i can check with Gregg about

<Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss action-34 add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples

<elf-pavlik> action-34

<trackbot> action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW


<bret> ya sounds good


<elf-pavlik> will make pull request to AS2.0 spec

<tantek> elf-pavlik, I don't understand how applies to the spec so I'll await to see your pull request.

<bill-looby> Action 15 complete just need someone ro reassign it to me from James Snell (page created here ->

<trackbot> Error finding '15'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.

<tantek> scribenick: AnnB

<elf-pavlik> tantek, please comment directly in W3C tracker, i'll keep it 'Pending Reveiw'

<bblfish> I heard elf very well though he spoke quickly


<elf-pavlik> action-37

<trackbot> action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN


<bill-looby> Issue 8 ?

<tantek> issue-8

<trackbot> issue-8 -- Test suite for activity streams 2.0 -- open


<Loqi> Alehors made 1 edit to Socialwg

bblfish (Henry Story): re: Issue 8 ..

<elf-pavlik> bblfish, can you add note to ISSUE or ACTION in tracker?

<hhalpin> bblfish can add it to tracker

bblfish: discussion about how to test Activity Streams
... need to test logic of ontology
... do classes clash with each other?
... <other examples>
... these are things one can created tests for

Tantek: can you make some of these tests for us?

<elf-pavlik> bblfish,

bblfish: yes

<jasnell> no

<jasnell> the owl and json-ld context files have not been published correctly yet

<jasnell> but they are available

<bblfish> ACTION: testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [recorded in [[1]|]]]

<trackbot> Error finding 'testing'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.

<bblfish> ACTION: bblfish to testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [recorded in [[2]|]]]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-45 - Testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [on Henry Story - due 2015-03-17].


<elf-pavlik> jasnell++

<jasnell> (the owl is really a ttl file)

<Loqi> jasnell has 6 karma

<bblfish> Action-45?

<trackbot> Action-45 -- Henry Story to Testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN



<elf-pavlik> action-15

<trackbot> action-15 -- James Snell to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN


bill-looby: Action 15 needs to be transferred to me

<jasnell> unfortunately I need to drop now

<jasnell> will be back on next week

<Loqi> I added a countdown for 3/16 10:34am (#5649)

<hhalpin> Where are the links?

<elf-pavlik> trackbot, status



<hhalpin> if so, email

<elf-pavlik> action-15

<trackbot> action-15 -- Bill Looby to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN


<elf-pavlik> done!


<hhalpin> he should be automatically added

<hhalpin> maybe there is a database/nickname issue

<elf-pavlik> action-15

<trackbot> action-15 -- James Snell to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN


<tantek> still shows James Snell

<confusion about how bill-looby gets added to tracker>

<now think maybe he just needed to log in>

<elf-pavlik> action-15

<trackbot> action-15 -- Bill Looby to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN


<elf-pavlik> shows Bill Looby ^

<aaronpk> scribenick: aaronpk

hhalpin: there was a concern from w3c about lack of participation of opensocial members

<tantek> scribenick: aaronpk

hhalpin: an email to the list clarifying the situation would be helpful

<tantek> is this regarding ?

hhalpin: we realize SAP has left the WG and thus no plans to harmonize the social business product
... ibm would like to know if harmonization is planned with other businesses

<tantek> action-29

<trackbot> action-29 -- James Snell to Reach out to open social foundation participants to invite them to join the w3c social web wg -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN


tantek: is this related to action 29?

hhalpin: this could be related

tantek: was there a specific concern you had related to that action?

hhalpin: yes, is there any existing business you know using the connections API and is there a dependency on LDAP or others?

<tantek> this sounds like a new issue

<tantek> the "is anyone else" part in particular

hhalpin: the the previous APIs were ATOM based so they are not likely to be changed overnight

<bblfish> what is the connections API?

tantek: i thought i heard what sounds like a new issue
... is anyone else besides IBM going to implement or support this API and/or any related APIs?

<hhalpin> Basically, right now we have a number of opensource developers and one social business product (IBM Connections). We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between LDP and OpenSocial planned in the future?

<tantek> new issue?

<tantek> what is the tracker-foo for creating a new issue?

<hhalpin> Let's get them involved!


<AdamB> we do plan to implement AS 2.0

<tantek> Issue: We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between LDP and OpenSocial planned in the future?

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-18 - We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between ldp and opensocial planned in the future?. Please complete additional details at <>.

<bblfish> yes, like which space is it?

<tantek> ACTION: hhalpin to add details to issue-18 [recorded in [[3]|]]]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-46 - Add details to issue-18 [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-17].

<hhalpin> From W3C's perspective, it appears OpenSocial has all dropped out, we'd like to see that situation addressed.

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to discuss what happened with opensocial permalinks

tantek: I thought I heard you say that the w3c decided to not work on them

hhalpin: correct, the w3c does notwant to support a drupal database

<tantek> action-30

<trackbot> action-30 -- James Snell to Ask opensocial folks about w3c archiving their blog posts -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED


<bret> heh, makes sense

<KevinMarks> can't you wget it all

hhalpin: if someone wants to re-setup the drupal instance and snapshot the HTML we would be happpy to add links to them
... the systems team does not have time to do that

<elf-pavlik> action-31

<trackbot> action-31 -- Harry Halpin to Will ask w3c systeam about prospect for archiving osf blog posts and perhaps other content -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED


tantek: w3c has the database...

hhalpin: no, opensocial has the database

<KevinMarks> who set up the drupal? it was google sites before

hhalpin: contact is on the email list

tantek: let's stop referring to opensocial since they don't exist. greg wallace has the database

bblfish: they don't care because it's too much work to set up the database, but are they willing to host html pages?

hhalpin: no they don't want to host the html either
... they don't want to put any time into this

tantek: it sounds like your'e saying the systems team doesn't even have a copy of the database

hhalpin: correct, that was not part of the deal, the deal was a domain redirect

<KevinMarks> seems to have crawled it:

hhalpin: systems team claims they do not have the database nor the resources to maintain

<elf-pavlik> can someone who cares about those broken links just follow up on ?

tantek: greg is willing to share the database is my understanding
... think we could put out an open call for someone to extract teh DB and provide a static snapshot?

hhalpin: if someone wants to do it that would be great

<KevinMarks> might be easier to unmung it from

<elf-pavlik> tantek++

<Loqi> tantek has 162 karma

tantek: certainly i think it makes sense to put out an open ca


tantek: i didn't realize putting up a static copy would be so difficult

hhalpin: you'd have to reinstall drupal, import the SQL database, then snapshot every page
... then probably redo any permalinks

<KevinMarks> database antipattern in action

<bret> sounds like a bit of work

hhalpin: it's non-trivial amount of work

tantek: harry would it be reasonable to make the minor request of you to acquire a copy of the SQL dump from greg?

hhalpin: i think anyone who wants to do it can contact greg directly
... that person can email greg if they want to volunteer

<rhiaro> I'll get a copy of the db dump from Greg

tantek: do we have any volunteers to acquire a SQL dump?

<rhiaro> And see if I can convert the SQL into something more useful

<KevinMarks> o_O

<elf-pavlik> sandro++

<rhiaro> I'll upload it somewhere ;)

sandro: and then mail it to the mailing list so that it's in a copy of the acrhives

<Loqi> sandro has 3 karma

<tantek> rhiaro++

<Loqi> rhiaro has 16 karma

tantek: i can't tell how serious you're being sandro

<ben_thatmustbeme> rhiaro++

sandro: me either, depends on how big it is

<KevinMarks> rhiaro++

<Loqi> rhiaro has 17 karma

<Loqi> rhiaro has 18 karma


<Loqi> rhiaro has 19 karma

<tantek> ACTION: rhiaro to acquire SQLdump of OpenSocial site database and upload somewhere [recorded in [[4]|]]]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Acquire sqldump of opensocial site database and upload somewhere [on Amy Guy - due 2015-03-17].

tantek: okay that gets us one step closer to not having everything lost forever
... i had an update on action 26


<trackbot> action-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats due jan 14, 2015 -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN


scribe: i've started the apparently lenghty process of going through the examples
... i'll be upfront, there are some serious issues with them
... i've opene a github issue to start to document the classes of issues i'm encountering
... while trying to fix the examples

<elf-pavlik> PR++

<Loqi> PR has 3 karma

scribe: my approach is to document the patterns of problems as well as try to at least issue an incremental pull reuqest to fix a few examples at a time
... so that they can be reviewed by james and anyone else so that we're heading in a good direction

<elf-pavlik> i do same for RDFa

scribe: i'd rather do it incrementally instead of 900 at once


<elf-pavlik> and did for Turtle

scribe: if anyone else would like to help out with this task i strongly encourage you to jump in and contribute to the detailsi nt he github issue

<KevinMarks> did james make the examples by hand or form the JSON-LD?

scribe: because i'd rather make sure we have good analysius of how we are fixing the issues

AnnB: example sof which?

tantek: microformats examples in AS 2.0 spec

<elf-pavlik> KevinMarks, JSON-LD normative - microformats just an informative

<bret> AnnB:

tantek: i want to be very deliberate about fixing them, hopefully so we can acquire more comunity knowledge about how to do html markup for activity streams

<KevinMarks> that wasn't the question, elf-pavlik

<elf-pavlik> KevinMarks, i think by hand from JSON-LD

<KevinMarks> is there a way to transform the supposedly normative version in LD to the others


tantek: next subject AS 2.0

<elf-pavlik> yes

Activity Streams 2.0

<elf-pavlik> issue-14

<trackbot> issue-14 -- as:Link adds a lot of complexity, if we keep it we need to clarify consequences of using it instead of as:Object -- open


elf-pavlik: AS allows for more values to be the object or link, and i found it complicating the spec a lot

<elf-pavlik> action-42

<trackbot> action-42 -- Pavlik elf to MediaObject - gather options for its social syntax on a wiki page -- due 2015-03-10 -- OPEN


elf-pavlik: at this moment, the link is used mostly for images, to say for this image this is the media type and sizes
... there are a few intentions of the Link
... one is to describe the versions of images you can get for a resources
... the second one seems to be -----
... my main concern is it is expressing the same information in multiple ways
... i want to encourage everyone to consider AS Link and we can discuss in the f2f

<elf-pavlik> seperate

tantek: okay that convers the first action,

<tantek> action-44

<trackbot> action-44 -- Pavlik elf to Collection - compare AS2 design with LDP, Hydra, etc. -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN


elf-pavlik: currently AS defines its own way of doing collections
... we also ahve the LD platform and hydra working with collections
... i would like to compare all of them
... by f2f I will have a more deep comparison
... to clarify how to do collections
... collections are very important, i think it wuould be good to give it a good thoguht to implement it correctly
... i'd encourage everyone to take al ook at the issue about collections
... hopefuly at the f2f we can cdiscuss it

tantek: you mentioned there is ome discussion about collections in the Hydra group
... and you also mentioned implementing.
... do you have any references to implemenations of the converstaions

elf-pavlik: i think harry and sandro can point us to some, i wil check about hydra, i don't know about activitystreams

tantek: okay, specifically the request is for references to implementations, or even better, a public collection or container post

<elf-pavlik> wilco!

tantek: that shows the structure of it. so if you can provide a permalink for how those systems publish a collection that will help with the analysis
... as a comparison, i can show you that there are folks in the indieweb community posting collections


tantek: here is a list of permalinks of collection posts
... so see ifyou can find similar collection post with the other approaches

elf-pavlik: maybe someone from indieweb can add examples from the indiewebcamp list

tantek: you can simply add that URL and keep it as a reference


sandro: i'll take a look at what you did there and add a parallel for LDP

tantek: we have one additional agenda item

participation in mailing list conversations

tantek: how much time do you need for this issue

bblfish: i've been told that not everyone is following or commenting on the mailing list

<KevinMarks> can you use the Wiki?

bblfish: the qyuestion is where is discussion happening if not the mailing list

tantek: discussion is certainly happening in the telcon and also in IRC
... to provide some background, which has been minuted,
... when harry reached out to myself and evan to co-chair the WG and ask us to bring our perspectives
... specifically for me to bring the indieweb perspective and processes

<bret> i watch the email list, but I dont post very much

tantek: i made the point that all the progress we've made was done without a mailing list
... part of the culture was to focus on showing by building instead of email discussions
... so I told harry i'd help co-chari but deliberately not participate in the mailing list so that I can provide the specific cultuer you asked us to bring to the WG

<bret> i can bridge anything from the mailing to to IRC, if anyone feels the opposite about IRC

<elf-pavlik> bret++

<Loqi> bret has 55 karma

bblfish: i think we should ask the group to take a few more ___ I can't followyou around to have a discussion
... i dont think this is a reasonable thing to ask or a reasonable way to work
... idon't see how else to have a discussion
... i'm going to say we start to voteon the mailing list

<KevinMarks> vote on having a mailing list?

bblfish: i don't know the indieweb, i don't know what they do, i heard the make al ot of noise
... i'm not sure they've done anything useful
... i don't know what they're doing because you're not in a disucssion

<KevinMarks> why not sue the isuses process?

bblfish: i can put an example in an email and be clear and have links, what is better? a blog? a tweet?

tantek: to answer your qeustion, the answer is yes, put it on your personal site
... and by providing that pushback, we have found two groups, people who want to discuss in email, and people who want to take up the challenge and put things on their site
... with that focus, that's what we've been able to achieve

<melvster> could I suggest a public mailing list in addition to the closed one this group has ... that worked well with LDP ... and would be more "social"

tantek: if you want a quick summary, we have p2p comments, replies, reposts, rsvps, invitations, all working across domains, across implementaions with numerous implementations
... that's something i understand no other group has been able to achieve

bblfish: but now i have to use the indieweb protocol to communicate with you

tantek: that's a strawman
... i just gave you a summary of what you've done

bblfish: so you have an API for pinging and such, so you require i implement opensocial

tantek: i don't know of anyone who is using opensocial

bblfish: oh i meant indieweb

hhalpin: it's clear people prefer different comm channels, I do unsuccessfully try to track email wiki and irc
... i know other people try to do all three

<bret> indieweb implementations is not required to participate here. afaict we use: github issues, mailing list, irc and wiki

hhalpin: i underrstnad people have different preferences
... i would prefer it if everyone would try to check all 3 or 4
... but understand if people don't, we can't force peopel to discuss with each other, or answer all questions

bblfish: why do we still have a WG then? we should close it down and wait a year

hhalpin: we have 3 channels and a telcon

<elf-pavlik> bblfish--

<Loqi> bblfish has -1 karma

<AnnB> (bblfish clarified that he misspoke about 'opensocial' .. he meant "IndieWeb")

hhalpin: if you're unhappy with someone you should raise it with that person

<melvster> bblfish++

<Loqi> bblfish has 0 karma

<tantek> elf-pavlik, please let's not -- people

<elf-pavlik> melvster++

<Loqi> melvster has 6 karma

<elf-pavlik> elf-pavlik--

<ben_thatmustbeme> voting of the wiki worked for us on user stories

<Loqi> You can't karma yourself!

<Arnaud> the data shapes WG does vote on the wiki actually :)

<KevinMarks> we did vote on user stories in the wiki

hhalpin: it soundsl ikeoyuh ave problem with tantek not responding to your emails

bblfish: no, he doesn't respond to any emails and doesn't even read them

<KevinMarks> Open issues instead

<Arnaud> and we did too on the stories

bblfish: so this is a problem of communication, he's saying we need to use blogging tools and APIs,

<bret> blogging tool requirement is a miscomunication

<elf-pavlik> AnnB++

<Loqi> too much karma!

hhalpin: you can talk to him on IRC and on the telcon, i would prefer if he would read emails but we can't force him

<bret> we actually have 4 channels... github issues


<bret> arguable the most important... since it actually references the spec directly

<KevinMarks> why not create issues, Henry?

<bret> (4)

<AdamB> might i suggest that if one particular "topic" can't be completed via mailing list that it gets put on the telecon agenda. it will slow the velocity of the team but might be a compromise?

hhalpin: the WG is about producing standards. we have3 channels, irc email and wiki. all three are available as html

bblfish: can we have a list of all the people in the WG refuse to use email?

<hhalpin> There are 3 communication channels: 1) IRC 2) wiki 3) mailing list

bblfish: and we can list all the times on IRC they are available

<hhalpin> that should be enough.

<KevinMarks> Henry: use

<AdamB> maybe do a issue like KevnMarks suggested and discussed on the phone

<ben_thatmustbeme> IRC has !tell, that was stated over email

<ben_thatmustbeme> it performs async and you can link to specific emails

<Arnaud> I sympathize with Henry, it is hard to have one conversation that way

<bret> is harry on irc?

<Arnaud> but I don't expect this problem to go away

<bret> elf-pavlik: other harry

<bret> the one talking

<ben_thatmustbeme> my phone just dropped out

<ben_thatmustbeme> I have to go back to work, i'll be on in IRC only

<bret> ah ok cool

<KevinMarks> o_O

<elf-pavlik> bblfish++

<hhalpin> However, we cannot force people to specific channels or respond to particular messages messages.

<KevinMarks> IRC is logged and has async

<tantek> hhalpin: we cannot force people to use specific channels

<bblfish> I'd like to know who refuses to use some of the channels

<Arnaud> sorry, we're way over time now

tantek: i'm going to put an 11:15 hard stop

<hhalpin> We would prefer it if people tried to check multiple channels

<elf-pavlik> Loqi,

AnnB: the one thing i don't get, i try to log in and follow it,
... henry, that's one thing these guys have brought to this, a way to put something into IRC and alerts someone to follow up

<elf-pavlik> !tell bblfish 'sup

<Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next

<bret> !tell AnnB hi AnnB!

<Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next

AnnB: maybe someone can demonstrate this

<KevinMarks> !tell bblfish how many unread eamial

<Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next

AnnB: i understand the indieweb people don't like to use email, so that "!tell somebody something" is valulable
... how do you accomplish that if not in email?

<bret> we have long conversation on IRC

oops, that should have been minuted

annb: but I am sympathetic to henry's concern, i don't understand how ... it's hard to have a longer conversation

<elf-pavlik> AnnB++

AnnB: part of it is education for some of us

<bblfish> annb: how is one to have longer detailed conversations on email

<Loqi> bblfish: elf-pavlik left you a message 1 minute ago: 'sup

<Loqi> bblfish: KevinMarks left you a message 1 minute ago: how many unread eamial

<hhalpin> In my experience, most developers I know are using a mixture of IRC and git rather than email in open-source projects

<bret> its easier to stay on the same page in IRC.. its really easy on email to totally lose someone after the first paragraph. in irc you can address issues imediately rather than 6 paragraphs in

tantek: the short answer is that email can lead to unproductive discussions

<hhalpin> Along with regular scrum meetings.

AnnB: we are tryign to learn, but IRC doesn't cut it for anything longer than a couple sentences

tantek: there are plenty of places to put longer content than IRC and then put URLs

<KevinMarks> webmentions, Ann

<melvster> Arnaud++

AnnB: i guess we're going to have to talk about this at the F2F, it's still quite a confusion

<bret> you can write a blogpost into an email list, just paste the URL in

<ben_thatmustbeme> email being very unproductive is one of the reasons things like Slack have seen such an update

<elf-pavlik> AnnB, can you add it to

<ben_thatmustbeme> uptake*

AnnB: I don't quite get it yet

tantek: i think there's a lot of folks that would happily help

KevinMarks: i think what henry wants is a formal backand forth that is acknowledged, so if that's what he wants, use the issue tracker

<elf-pavlik> trackbot++

tantek: we're out of time

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to note that re: timezones and indieweb - we have plenty of people in Germany, Australia, and other timezones that are able to have very good productive

<KevinMarks> AnnB: ask in here

<AnnB> how does Issue Tracker work for discussion?

hhalpin: we do want to see check all channels, we understand that 3 channels IRC wiki and mailing list, we understand that may be a lot for people

<Loqi> AnnB: bret left you a message 3 minutes ago: hi AnnB!

<AnnB> I post a question as an issue? and then someone responds?

hhalpin: nonetheless, we should all try to communicate with each other, there's nothing we can do to force peopel to communicate with each other
... weshould assume we're all operating in good faith

<AnnB> that doesn't seem like a discussion

<elf-pavlik> AnnB, please don't use ISSUEs in tracker like that!

hhalpin: in terms of mailing list vs non mailing list, it's a factual note that almost all open source projects have been moving away from mailing list onto IRC and tickets

<elf-pavlik> we need to have formal process to open and close them

<AnnB> I thought that's what Kevin proposed

<KevinMarks> hm

<AnnB> just trying to unders5tand

<bblfish> Most of these tools end up sending e-mails out, so for the moment one ends up with e-mail overflow

hhalpin: it's not surprising that over time we're seeing shifts to other mediums,
... as long as it's documented we're fine with that

<Arnaud> gotta end this call

<elf-pavlik> AnnB, let's discuss it next week during face 2 face?

<KevinMarks> actually it looks like the github issues were what I was lookignat

tantek: thanks for the summary. i'd encourage anyone else who wants to continue this discussion to hang out in IRC

<melvster> hhalpin: why not make it mandatory for chairs to read the mailing list in a WG ... for example, it's mandatory to send regrets via the mailing list when you cant meet ... surely the chair shoudl be reading that?

<KevinMarks> this

<hhalpin> Again, we understand that three communications channels may be too much.

<melvster> cc tantek ^

<Tsyesika> oh is it over?

<Tsyesika> already?

<tantek> melvster because it was a condition of becoming a co-chair that we could ignore the mailing list

<KevinMarks> is better than

<hhalpin> But that we can all try to read the various channels and keep abreast, understanding we have diffierent priorities and styles.

<AnnB> I do want to continue the conversation on this. Sorry to be slow, but I do not think we have a good way for a *discussion*

<tantek> based on previous *years* of experience that "social web" mailing lists are mostly irrelevant and unproductive

<melvster> tantek: politics politics :)

<hhalpin> W3C process cannot force anyone to read messages.

<AnnB> but it might be that I just do not understand

trackbot: end meeting

<tantek> and counter-evidence that indieweb has succeeded WITHOUT a mailing list

<tantek> so mailing list is just informal water cooler - purely optional

<AnnB> sorry that I am slower than you tantek .. such is life .. dealing with humans is a challeng

<tantek> melvster - not politics, but rather focus on building