16:00:47 RRSAgent has joined #social 16:00:47 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc 16:00:49 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:00:49 Zakim has joined #social 16:00:51 Zakim, this will be SOCL 16:00:51 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 60 minutes 16:00:52 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 16:00:52 Date: 10 March 2015 16:00:55 Well, alright, blogposts work too 16:01:08 an hour in advance? ;) 16:02:02 and for those not priviledged enough to be able to set up a blog, lengthy facebook status updates 16:03:02 rhiaro: in fact, for public email list posts, better to blog them first on your own domain, and then just POSSE them to the email list. http://indiewebcamp.com/email_list#POSSE_to_an_email_list 16:03:35 that's a good idea 16:03:45 rhiaro: it's just as easy to setup a personal withknown.com site as it is a FB sign-in. and withknown won't even force you to use your "real name" or add a phone number or any of that other privacy invasive stuff 16:04:16 with the current withknown.com we have crossed the "onboarding" barrier as compared to any silo 16:04:19 hey, you know I'm sold on it - but my non-tech friends don't believe me 16:04:27 working on it though! 16:05:01 rhiaro: have them try signing up on withknown.com on their mobile device (smartphone, iPad etc.) - it's quite slick 16:05:12 having said that, most of my non-tech friends also can't handle email reply-all, they're entirely slaves to facebook 16:05:13 pretty much as simple as tumblr 16:05:30 I'm not sure anyone knows how to properly "handle" email reply-all 16:05:36 it's a fundamentally broken feature 16:06:15 is there a reader/aggregator for known? 16:11:49 rhiaro: the preposition you're looking for is "in", not "for" 16:11:57 what, then, is your preferred "full" communication system, Tantek? ... IRC with a logging tool, blog posts, and personal web site? 16:12:15 s/for/in 16:12:28 the notion of a separate reader/aggregator is an out of date UI concept dating back to legacy feed file readers of the early 2000s, and is largely obsolete / abandoned compared to integrated reading/posting UIs of modern social networks 16:12:50 I meant is there a way to pick up the known posts of everyone you care to follow in one place? 16:13:08 AnnB - my comms systems are continuously evolving for efficiency 16:13:29 I gather 16:13:39 currently IRC is the best for discussions, even better with logging and bots. 16:13:59 I appreciate you seek efficiencies and new paths, but I am not quite there with you yet 16:14:07 personal site notes are a good way to post a few sentences, and blog posts are better for a few paragraphs or more. 16:14:32 I like IRC a lot for sort of short discussions (as Amy said above), but not for longer more thoughtful discussion 16:14:36 for me, reading everyone's blog posts is unrealistic 16:14:40 not into it at all 16:14:44 AnnB, the best way to force the pursuit of efficiencies is to focus on building/creating rather than chatting/talking/discussing. 16:15:09 whereas those that focus on discussions will stay stuck in whatever discussion app/forum/software/site they get comfortable with 16:15:18 Or "imaginary" software :) 16:15:24 I understand the spirit of that statement, and to some extent applaud .. but also disagree in some ways 16:15:25 not realizing that comms are a means, not an ends 16:15:29 with purported and non-existent users 16:15:34 which is typically what we have in some WGs. 16:15:51 seems self-centered to me 16:15:51 hhalpin, it's ok, implementers have learned ot ignore those who talk about imaginary software 16:15:57 These sorts of efforts should be "research" and not in a standards bodies. 16:16:06 hhalpin, do you know what format the opensocial blog posts are in? I could probably look at getting them online at some point 16:16:18 They are in a SQL drupal setup. Email greg for a copy 16:16:30 rhiaro: ironic that the opensocial blog pX were never available themselves via any form of opensocial API 16:16:30 okay! 16:16:37 perfect example of a failure to selfdogfood 16:17:05 I don't know much about open social 16:17:17 if you're not using your own "social" system/API/platform for your own notes and blog posts, you're doing it wrong, and no one should pay any attention to your social system/API/platform 16:17:32 rhiaro: and now that they and W3C broke all the opensocial permalinks, no one else does either 16:17:33 but, Tantek, not all of us are geeks 16:17:34 our chance to selfdogfood - https://www.w3.org/community/webzakim/ 16:17:44 not all of us are going to build our own system .. 16:17:46 AnnB - that's a misframed misconception 16:17:51 oh well 16:17:54 AnnB - from Kindergarten, we are all taught to be creatives 16:18:06 I'd say I'm plenty creative 16:18:15 it is society and limiting statements like "not all of us are geeks" that destroy people's creative expression 16:18:26 so I categorically reject such statements 16:18:31 but not necessarily in YOUR specific ways .. 16:18:34 because they are (self)-limiting and unproductive 16:18:35 I think you're great 16:18:49 but am I wrong if I don't do things your way 16:18:53 ? 16:19:02 that's how those statements come across 16:19:05 to me 16:19:24 Tantek, at some point see emails 16:19:35 re microformat 16:19:46 and W3C RFF. 16:19:50 AnnB - it's not my way 16:19:54 it's a common expression 16:20:00 the difference between doers/builders and talkers 16:20:05 I didn't make that up\ 16:20:09 I only adopted it 16:21:15 hhalpin - are there any emails from actual implementers that I should look at? or is it mostly watercooler whining? (what I remember from FedSocWebIG list etc.) 16:21:22 this may be where the brevity of IRC fails me ... I find this thread to be kind of distressing and depressing 16:21:31 No, its from our legal staff 16:21:42 Re the suitability of OWFa licensing and W3C RFF 16:22:15 I'm signing off on this conversation re microformats as a normative reference, it's gone up to TimBL :) 16:22:49 Re "self-dog-fooding", W3C is interested in members implementing products as well, so AnnB, if Boeing supports the specs, I think that would be great 16:23:46 I'm all for self-dog-fooding, for those who have the skills and the ya-yas to do it 16:24:14 I'm just saying that the vast majority of the world doesn't ... and shouldn't be dissed for not 16:24:43 I'm in awe of the effort the IndieWeb folks make, actually 16:24:47 AnnB, I was about to go on to list the advantages I see to email, but you know what, maybe I'll write a blog post about it ;) 16:24:49 AnnB - the dissing is not for lack of selfdogfooding, it is for open-ended and unrealistic complex demands 16:25:08 selfdogfooding is merely one way that anyone can see the flaws is most demands 16:25:25 blog posts generally just don't work for me ... for various reasons 16:26:15 AnnB, have you tried withknown.com ? 16:26:17 not totally sure what you mean, Tantek, re: "open-ended and unrealistic complex demands" ... I just want to communicate with people and discuss things 16:26:23 which is darn hard 16:26:28 no 16:26:31 AnnB - most of the user stories are open-ended and unrealistic complex demands 16:26:32 but I'll go look 16:26:37 by non-implementers 16:26:52 oh, you're ref'ing user stories 16:27:06 and past mailling list posts / threads 16:27:11 which are *even worse* 16:27:12 I guess that's the classic issue with "users" ... they're danged humans! 16:27:16 it *is* useful to have information pushed to you (perhaps by people you don't know) rather than having to seek it out and follow it yourself 16:27:23 with all their myriad complexities 16:27:25 AnnB - you've seen the car designed by Homer Simpson? 16:27:31 That's the problem we're talking about here 16:27:31 no 16:27:33 which email is good for until we solve The Discovery Problem 16:27:52 rhiaro no that's called spam (information pushed to you) 16:28:01 (by people you don't know) 16:28:37 only if you don't want it 16:29:01 I pick up lots of new and interesting information from mailing lists, sent by people I don't know 16:29:04 rhiaro perhaps 90% of email I receive is stuff I don't want nor need 16:29:10 Probably that's how I found out about this group 16:29:16 opportunity cost for far more intersting things 16:29:31 so what's your vision, Tantek .. use withknown.com to post all my thoughts, pics, whatever? .. then what? 16:29:44 AnnB - it's an improvement on the current state 16:29:55 of Facebook or ...??? 16:29:59 the way you figure out "then what?" is to take incremental steps forward 16:30:06 with each step forward, the next step becomes more clear 16:30:15 if you take no steps forward you will never figure out "then what?" 16:30:15 I'm all for exploration and experimentation 16:30:24 then go for it! 16:30:45 AnnB, are you staying for indiewebcamp after the f2f? :) 16:30:51 at the same time, I'm trying to figure out how to have discussions with a group of people (eg this one) in something more than IRC bits 16:31:06 Yes! but only until ~4pm Thurs 16:31:13 I'm really looking forward to it 16:31:45 awesome :D 16:32:12 I understand your selfdogfood, etc efforts, Tantek ... 16:32:30 .. I'm still trying to understand how you think a group of people should discuss stuff 16:32:32 AnnB - I hate to say it, but you can't really understand selfdogfooding until you start doing it. 16:32:35 That's the point. 16:32:42 ... in more than brief IRC bits 16:32:46 ...?? 16:32:50 You may *think* you understand, but you don't. Just like you can't understand riding a bicycle until you try riding one. 16:32:50 true on trying 16:33:29 in this context, what is selfdogfooding? 16:33:37 writing code to host my own site? 16:33:39 AnnB - indiewebcamp community has been built rapidly and created amazing simple protocols and formats WITHOUT ANY EMAIL LIST 16:33:39 that's the point 16:33:43 we have found the enemy, and the enemy is the medium of email, which encourages talkers instead of doers. 16:33:52 or using a service that does has already written the code? 16:34:03 I see this with my niece, too 16:34:05 AdamB LMGTFY 16:34:06 tantek, I see a Reader and Notifications listed under 'itches' for Known, so that's a pretty big thing missing for people used to a facebook (etc) feed 16:34:16 rhiaro: agreed 16:35:03 regardless, it sounds like you are communicating great with a highly selective group of geeks 16:35:07 http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood 16:35:22 ... how do you communicate with the rest of the world? or do you? 16:35:30 AnnB - no - we are communicating with those that prioritize creating over talking. 16:35:43 I see that 16:35:50 anyone can choose to make that their priority 16:36:00 but most apparently choose not to, for whatever reason 16:36:09 but that sounds like you're saying you do not communicate with others 16:36:24 i think that definition is unrealistic for the world .... 99% of people can not build their own creations 16:36:33 "my/our way or the highway" is how that comes across 16:36:34 AnnB, no it is a matter of prioritization and maximizing signal to noise ratio. 16:36:56 AdamB - see above about Kindergarten vs. later socialization. 16:37:11 AnnB - it doesn't matter, talkers on email lists will never build anything 16:37:23 so the question is, do you want tools you can use? or do you want endless conversations about future tools?" 16:37:56 hmm .. maybe the gap here is that I was thinking about general discussion adn communication, and you're talking about "building" 16:38:05 AnnB - without building, there are no tools. 16:38:17 for indieweb this makes sense, but I think not so much for this group - to some extent, sure, but there are also a lot of people participating who *have* a lot of experience *building* and *doing* in earlier years, who are maybe doing something else right now without so much capacity to be on the bleeding edge, but who still have valuable contributions to make, and can do so most easily via email 16:38:45 rhiaro: I question "valuable contributions" in the context of social web if they're not actually *doing it* on the social web. 16:38:53 Augier has joined #social 16:39:08 the valuable contributions could be finding out what doesn't work 16:39:08 which is why the email list is ignorable if you're a builder 16:39:15 what hasn't worked in the past 16:39:22 rhiaro: the only you find out what doesn't work, is by building it, and finding its limitations 16:39:29 otherwise it's all handwaving talk 16:39:37 surely it's useful to learn from other peoples' experiences on that front? 16:39:38 the only *way you find out... 16:39:45 rather than reinventing the misshappen wheel over and over 16:39:47 rhiaro: actually, most of the time no 16:39:56 sometimes we succeed because we don't know that we can fail 16:40:02 Shudson made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-10]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82751&oldid=82745 16:40:28 rhiaro: it's also how simpler things get invented, by completely ignoring the complex overdesign crap of the past 16:40:31 there's a balance between being held back by other peoples' failures, and failing to stand on their shoulders to progress further 16:40:32 tantek: are you talking about average people with your "builders" or about people in the tech/standards space ? 16:40:50 AdamB - I'm talking about all creatives. Did you Google selfdogfood yet? 16:41:01 yep 16:41:02 because that's certainly a tool that average people use 16:41:48 alright, enough meta-talk, I'm going to work on action 26 a bit 16:41:50 Action 26 16:41:56 Issue 26 16:42:01 action-26 16:42:01 action-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats due jan 14, 2015 -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN 16:42:01 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/26 16:42:07 trackbot, where is your source? 16:42:07 Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, where is your source?'. Please refer to for help. 16:42:23 trackbot, where do we submit pull requests for you? 16:42:23 Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, where do we submit pull requests for you?'. Please refer to for help. 16:43:04 AnnB: try setting up a withknown.com and then we can more concrete conversations about this stuff. 16:43:09 this is both a fascinating and a frustrating thread ... I feel like we're going around and around 16:43:31 I look forward to seeing you in person next week! 16:43:39 AnnB - exactly as most email lists do - go around and around, and don't actually create or build anything, and why implementers are learning to ignore them. 16:43:40 maybe then I'll understand 16:43:45 AnnB I look forward to seeing your withknown.com! 16:43:49 OR maybe you'll consider my points 16:43:53 (dreaming .. ) 16:44:02 AnnB - make your points on a blog post on your withknown.com and send me the URL 16:44:14 dreaming++ 16:44:16 dreaming has 1 karma 16:44:19 email the url to the wg group ;) 16:44:32 or paste it in IRC since it's only one line ;) 16:44:38 oh tantek, you are dedicated to your version of the truth ... few have your passion 16:44:49 AnnB - it's not my vision, it predates me 16:44:55 do, don't just chat 16:45:28 I'm still trying to understand how you choose to communicate about 'normal' stuff that's not about 'building' 16:45:40 brb 16:49:25 ok slowly making progress on action-26 16:54:41 tilgovi has joined #social 16:54:42 opened a github issue on AS spec to track specifics: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/83 16:54:53 this is going to take a lot of pull requests to fix 16:54:53 tantek++ 16:54:56 tantek has 161 karma 16:55:32 SimonTennant1 has joined #social 16:58:43 pfefferle_ has joined #social 16:59:29 elf, that only works when the meeting has been started 16:59:42 T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started 16:59:49 + +1.971.275.aaaa 16:59:55 Zakim: aaaa is aaronpk 16:59:56 +AdamB 16:59:59 Zakim, aaaa is aaronpk 16:59:59 +aaronpk; got it 17:00:04 ugh who decided on comma syntax 17:00:11 trackbot, start meeting 17:00:13 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:00:15 Zakim, this will be SOCL 17:00:15 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now 17:00:16 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 17:00:16 Date: 10 March 2015 17:00:36 hmm - Zakim is not answering again 17:00:41 zakim, who's on the phone? 17:00:41 I notice T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has restarted 17:00:42 On the phone I see aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud 17:00:42 +[IPcaller] 17:00:44 + +1.401.305.aabb 17:00:47 lol restarted 17:00:59 Zakim, aabb is me 17:00:59 +ben_thatmustbeme; got it 17:01:01 +??P5 17:01:03 Zakim, mute me 17:01:03 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 17:01:05 wow so much noise 17:01:14 -??P5 17:01:19 +bblfish 17:01:35 +Lloyd_Fassett 17:02:01 +Ann 17:02:10 weird, my phone is on mute 17:02:22 +??P7 17:02:24 zakim, ??p7 is me 17:02:24 +tantek; got it 17:02:39 aarokpk, could be the line, I don't trust phone mutes 17:03:01 elf-pavlik: nope 17:03:10 +??P9 17:03:17 bill-looby has joined #social 17:03:21 Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social 17:03:21 elf, do you hear anything besides music? 17:03:32 w3c doesn't usually have music when on hold 17:03:39 how would you describe the music? 17:03:49 (can you imagine the discussions on which music to play?) 17:03:53 AnnB++ 17:03:56 AnnB has 6 karma 17:04:02 haha 17:04:06 +??P10 17:04:09 Zakim, ??P10 is me 17:04:09 +rhiaro; got it 17:04:13 music: the first interoperable social standard 17:04:27 Lloyd ++ 17:04:35 +Sandro 17:04:45 Zakim, ??P9 is me 17:04:45 +bill-looby; got it 17:04:48 and the snow is melting up here 17:04:54 chair: tantek 17:05:05 its been a beautiful 40 17:05:30 agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-10 17:05:35 yak trax .. fantastic for ice 17:05:46 Zakim, who is here? 17:05:46 On the phone I see aaronpk, AdamB, Arnaud, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, bill-looby, rhiaro (muted), Sandro 17:05:49 On IRC I see Lloyd_Fassett, bill-looby, pfefferle, SimonTennant1, Zakim, RRSAgent, hhalpin, tantek, AdamB, AnnB, Arnaud, bblfish, elf-pavlik, the_frey, shepazu, Loqi, nickstenn, 17:05:49 ... melvster, wilkie, aaronpk, KevinMarks, oshepherd, wseltzer, ElijahLynn, ben_thatmustbeme, mattl, JakeHart, bret, dwhly, bigbluehat, rhiaro, rektide, trackbot 17:06:04 +??P12 17:06:13 Zakim, ??P12 is me 17:06:13 +bret; got it 17:06:19 Zakim, mute me 17:06:19 bret should now be muted 17:06:40 Hi AnnB 17:06:41 trackbot, start meeting 17:06:43 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:06:45 Zakim, this will be SOCL 17:06:45 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 6 minutes ago 17:06:46 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 17:06:46 Date: 10 March 2015 17:06:54 scribenick: aaronpk 17:06:58 chair: tantek 17:06:59 agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-10 17:07:06 Zakim, code? 17:07:06 the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), hhalpin 17:07:20 tantek: next week there is no telcon because of f2f 17:07:28 ... any objections to telcon for the week after? 17:07:38 ... next telcon is schedule for the 24th as usual unless there are any objections 17:07:57 TOPIC: minutes from last week 17:08:09 tantek: any problems/suggestions for the minutes? 17:08:14 +1 17:08:16 ... anyone want to expliclty express support? 17:08:19 +1 17:08:27 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-03-minutes 17:08:43 ... not hearing objections and some support, declare minutes approved 17:08:45 TOPIC: f2f meeting 17:08:53 tantek: please review the f2f wiki page 17:08:56 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17 17:09:13 ... lots of description there for how to get to the venue 17:09:19 ... looks li ke 13 participants and 3 additional observers 17:09:34 ... in particular a couple observers fro mthe annotations WG, hope to get good cross-collaboration 17:09:40 ... if you have specific items for the agenda, feel free to add them 17:09:51 ... if you think you know what larger topic they fall under add them as a sublist 17:10:00 ... please sign your agenda item so we know who is responsible for the discussion 17:10:08 ... sandro, did you have any other suggestions? 17:10:13 jasnell has joined #social 17:10:32 sandro++ 17:10:32 Arnaud: food is provided by sandro, courtesy of a grant by ___ 17:10:33 sandro has 1 karma 17:10:39 sandro++ 17:10:41 sandro has 2 karma 17:10:52 s/___/QCRI/ 17:10:53 tantek: meeting is at 9am, are we feeding ourselves for breakfast? 17:10:57 Zakim mute me 17:11:05 sandro: we could order a fruit platter and coffee 17:11:16 Zakim, mute me 17:11:16 sorry, jasnell, I don't know what conference this is 17:11:16 tantek: that would be a great minimum viable breakfast, let's do that and set it at 8:30 17:11:18 minimumviablebreakfast has 1 karma 17:11:28 lol 17:11:37 sandro: i'll make sure everything is ready at 8 17:11:49 AnnB: would be hlepful if people get there at 8:30 to start setting up their stuff 17:12:24 +1 food from Sandro's grant!! 17:12:27 tantek: great, looking forward to seeing everyone at 8:30, dress warmly! 17:13:05 topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues 17:13:08 TOPIC: open issues 17:13:25 q+ 17:13:31 tantek: will open to the floor to address any open issues 17:13:36 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/pendingreview 17:13:39 q+ 17:13:39 q? 17:13:39 ack hhalpin 17:13:43 action-5 17:13:43 action-5 -- Harry Halpin to See if bradfitz did sign on off w3c owf licensing. -- due 2014-11-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:13:43 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/5 17:13:45 hhalpin: i'd like to close out all my actions except for 14 17:13:47 action-12 17:13:47 action-12 -- Harry Halpin to Get clarification on PubSubHubbub -- due 2014-11-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:13:48 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/12 17:13:56 action-31 17:13:56 action-31 -- Harry Halpin to Will ask w3c systeam about prospect for archiving osf blog posts and perhaps other content -- due 2015-01-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:13:56 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/31 17:14:01 ... basically brad fitzpatrick has not signed off on w3c licensing so pubsubhubbub cannot be normatively referenced 17:14:04 is that because google wont let them? 17:14:06 action-40 17:14:06 action-40 -- Harry Halpin to Invite annotations wg -- due 2015-03-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:14:06 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/40 17:14:08 ... we asked explicltly in november and he said no 17:14:12 elf-pavlik: please slow down 17:14:13 ... i don't think it's worth me pursuing 17:14:17 let's take them one at a time 17:14:28 ... w3c said no they won't host the opensocial blog 17:14:30 action-5 completed - no agreement to license. 17:14:37 ... annotations wg we already have people joining 17:14:59 action-12 same as action-5 17:15:01 ... just finished talkign with wendy and tim about normaitve referecning of microformats and schema 17:15:02 hhalpin++ 17:15:04 hhalpin has 1 karma 17:15:07 ... it's on their agenda to have an official response 17:15:23 hhalpin++ that was a lot 17:15:27 hhalpin has 2 karma 17:15:27 ... tim and whitney will be around during the f2f 17:15:33 s/whitney/wendy 17:16:09 -bblfish 17:16:15 bblfish has joined #social 17:16:49 close action-5 17:16:49 Closed action-5. 17:16:49 Basically, the question over normative references to non-W3C specs 17:16:52 +bblfish 17:16:55 close action-12 17:16:55 Closed action-12. 17:16:56 for the case of both microformats and schema.org 17:17:02 is currently being pursued by W3M 17:17:07 I asked about whether it had to do with openstand 17:17:08 close action-40 17:17:08 Closed action-40. 17:17:09 ShaneHudson has joined #social 17:17:15 in particular, the question is compatibility of microformats with OpenStand (should not be a problem) 17:17:20 close action-31 17:17:20 Closed action-31. 17:17:28 but there may be a legal issue around patent non-asserts (OWFa) and W3C royalty-free 17:17:34 I think Wendy will give that some cycles 17:17:45 I am not a lawyer so I can't answer that type of question. 17:17:51 q+ re: action-34 add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples 17:19:24 tantek: loop me in specifically on any discussion of Microformats licensing, as i specifically discussed that with Mozilla legal 17:19:30 Basically, my non-legal opinion is OWFa seems in same space as Note Well from IETF 17:19:40 and thus should probably be OK (it would *not* be OK if there was no patent commits) 17:19:47 but I'm not a lawyer 17:19:59 tantek: I think the issue harry notices is when w3c can and should reference things developed outside the w3c 17:20:02 so I think looping in Mozilla legal with Wendy Seltzer and W3C may be a good idea 17:20:02 Alehors made 4 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82756&oldid=82749 17:20:19 ... it means that each individual WG has to go through this and ask these questions 17:20:29 ... i'm really thankful to harry for going through it 17:20:31 hhalpin++ 17:20:34 hhalpin has 3 karma 17:20:48 ... it's important for a w3c grouip to be able to reference rather than monolithincally bring everything into the w3c 17:20:59 thanks for the overview 17:21:25 I think here is current policy: 17:21:26 http://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references 17:21:43 But determining if a single spec matches that is hard sometimes 17:21:46 dont forget AnnB's q 17:21:52 s/monolithincally /monolithically/ 17:21:52 tantek: so that leaves us with just the one open action for you? 17:22:03 hhalpin: yes because i don't ersonally work with CONNEG (issue-14) 17:22:12 thanks, bret; Tantek's overview answered it 17:22:12 ... 14 is open, everything else should be closed 17:22:14 i just closed most of them! 17:22:18 ah ok 17:22:22 ... 41 we can say pending review 17:22:26 https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/pendingreview 17:22:37 ... do note there is a normative reference policy wich I dropped the link to 17:22:51 action-37 17:22:51 action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/8 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN 17:22:51 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/37 17:22:52 action-37 17:22:52 action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/8 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN 17:22:52 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/37 17:23:00 ... the question was how do you test a data format 17:23:27 ... the answer was effectively the testing team said if you ahve an API that consumes then test the APIs 17:23:42 ... if we *can* test a precise wayt he w3c appreciates it 17:23:48 q+ 17:23:58 tantek: presumably the way to test s data format is to write a validator, we have that with html and css, was that option considered? 17:24:14 hhalpin: a validator would be sufficient if there were rules we could put into a w3c validator 17:24:29 ... the w3c validation team only has so much time, so if we wrote our own validation rules they could do that 17:24:44 +1 17:24:44 tantek: could you add that option expliciltly? the WG sould consider writing a validator for activitystreams 17:24:45 i can check with Gregg about http://linter.structured-data.org/ 17:24:54 q+ to discuss what happened with opensocial permalinks 17:24:56 q? 17:24:58 q+ 17:25:04 ack elf-pavlik 17:25:04 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss action-34 add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples 17:25:17 action-34 17:25:17 action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:25:18 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/34 17:25:18 ya sounds good 17:26:07 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax#Activity_Streams_2.0 17:26:20 will make pull request to AS2.0 spec 17:26:40 elf-pavlik, I don't understand how https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mixing_HTML_Data_Formats applies to the spec so I'll await to see your pull request. 17:26:40 Guest has joined #social 17:26:42 -aaronpk 17:26:42 q? 17:26:43 Action 15 complete just need someone ro reassign it to me from James Snell (page created here ->https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/IBM_Connections_API) 17:26:44 Error finding '15'. You can review and register nicknames at . 17:27:10 +aaronpk 17:27:12 scribenick: AnnB 17:27:13 tantek, please comment directly in W3C tracker, i'll keep it 'Pending Reveiw' 17:27:24 I heard elf very well though he spoke quickly 17:27:25 sure 17:27:25 q? 17:27:34 ack bblfish 17:28:25 action-37 17:28:25 action-37 -- Harry Halpin to Put forth the test suite plan using standard js tools https://www.w3.org/social/track/issues/8 -- due 2015-02-10 -- OPEN 17:28:25 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/37 17:28:49 Issue 8 ? 17:28:57 issue-8 17:28:57 issue-8 -- Test suite for activity streams 2.0 -- open 17:28:57 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/8 17:30:03 Alehors made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82757&oldid=82684 17:30:06 bblfish (Henry Story): re: Issue 8 .. 17:30:41 bblfish, can you add note to ISSUE or ACTION in tracker? 17:31:00 bblfish can add it to tracker 17:31:22 bbfish: discussion about how to test Activity Streams 17:31:30 ... need to test logic of ontology 17:31:46 ... do classes clash with each other? 17:31:51 ... 17:31:59 .. these are things one can created tests for 17:32:09 s/bbfish/bblfish/ 17:32:10 Tantek: can you make some of these tests for us? 17:32:16 bblfish, http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#non-normative-ontology-definition 17:32:16 bblfish: yes 17:32:19 no 17:32:32 the owl and json-ld context files have not been published correctly yet 17:32:40 but they are available 17:32:47 Action: testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level 17:32:47 Error finding 'testing'. You can review and register nicknames at . 17:33:02 Action bblfish: testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level 17:33:03 Created ACTION-45 - Testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [on Henry Story - due 2015-03-17]. 17:33:09 http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/activitystreams2.owl 17:33:14 jasnell++ 17:33:15 (the owl is really a ttl file) 17:33:17 jasnell has 6 karma 17:33:33 Action-45? 17:33:33 Action-45 -- Henry Story to Testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN 17:33:33 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/45 17:33:39 q? 17:33:39 q? 17:33:40 http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/activitystreams2-context.jsonld 17:33:44 ack bill-looby 17:34:07 action-15 17:34:07 action-15 -- James Snell to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN 17:34:07 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15 17:34:29 q+ 17:34:30 bill-looby: Action 15 needs to be transferred to me 17:34:35 unfortunately I need to drop now 17:34:38 -Lloyd_Fassett 17:34:41 will be back on next week 17:34:42 I added a countdown for 3/16 10:34am (#5649) 17:34:45 -jasnell 17:35:06 Where are the links? 17:35:11 +Lloyd_Fassett 17:35:14 trackbot, status 17:35:17 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15 17:35:30 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users 17:35:44 if so, email sysreq@w3.org 17:36:06 action-15 17:36:06 action-15 -- Bill Looby to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN 17:36:06 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15 17:36:10 done! 17:36:21 https://www.w3.org/Social/track/users 17:36:26 he should be automatically added 17:36:41 maybe there is a database/nickname issue 17:36:50 action-15 17:36:50 action-15 -- James Snell to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN 17:36:50 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15 17:36:56 https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15 still shows James Snell 17:37:10 17:37:21 17:37:23 action-15 17:37:23 action-15 -- Bill Looby to Expand on IBM Connection's Social APIs -- due 2014-12-02 -- OPEN 17:37:23 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/15 17:37:30 shows Bill Looby ^ 17:37:48 scribenick: aaronpk 17:37:54 + +1.408.335.aacc 17:37:59 q? 17:38:18 zakim, aacc is KevinMarks 17:38:18 +KevinMarks; got it 17:38:25 ack hhalpin 17:38:27 sandro has joined #social 17:38:41 hhalpin: there was a concern from w3c about lack of participation of opensocial members 17:38:49 scribenick: aaronpk 17:39:07 ... an email to the list clarifying the situation would be helpful 17:39:17 is this regarding https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/29 ? 17:39:19 ...we realize SAP has left the WG and thus no plans to harmonize the social business product 17:39:39 ... ibm would like to know if harmonization is planned with other businesses 17:39:41 action-29 17:39:41 action-29 -- James Snell to Reach out to open social foundation participants to invite them to join the w3c social web wg -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN 17:39:41 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/29 17:39:48 tantek: is this related to action 29? 17:39:58 hhalpin: this could be related 17:40:12 tantek: was there a specific concern you had related to that action? 17:40:30 hhalpin: yes, is there any existing business you know using the connections API and is there a dependency on LDAP or others? 17:40:37 this sounds like a new issue 17:40:48 the "is anyone else" part in particular 17:40:52 ... the the previous APIs were ATOM based so they are not likely to be changed overnight 17:40:58 what is the connections API? 17:40:59 tantek: i thought i heard what sounds like a new issue 17:41:16 ... is anyone else besides IBM going to implement or support this API and/or any related APIs? 17:41:20 Basically, right now we have a number of opensource developers and one social business product (IBM Connections). We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between LDP and OpenSocial planned in the future? 17:41:51 new issue? 17:42:00 what is the tracker-foo for creating a new issue? 17:42:10 Let's get them involved! 17:42:13 http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc 17:42:20 we do plan to implement AS 2.0 17:42:39 Issue: We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between LDP and OpenSocial planned in the future? 17:42:40 Created ISSUE-18 - We need to know if there are any other products in this space and if there are any dependencies between ldp and opensocial planned in the future?. Please complete additional details at . 17:42:59 yes, like which space is it? 17:43:04 Action hhalpin: add details to issue-18 17:43:04 Created ACTION-46 - Add details to issue-18 [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-17]. 17:43:07 From W3C's perspective, it appears OpenSocial has all dropped out, we'd like to see that situation addressed. 17:43:39 q? 17:43:56 ack tantek 17:43:56 tantek, you wanted to discuss what happened with opensocial permalinks 17:44:12 tantek: I thought I heard you say that the w3c decided to not work on them 17:44:20 q? 17:44:20 hhalpin: correct, the w3c does notwant to support a drupal database 17:44:23 q? 17:44:23 action-30 17:44:23 action-30 -- James Snell to Ask opensocial folks about w3c archiving their blog posts -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED 17:44:23 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/30 17:44:26 q+ 17:44:26 heh, makes sense 17:44:32 can't you wget it all 17:44:46 hhalpin: if someone wants to re-setup the drupal instance and snapshot the HTML we would be happpy to add links to them 17:44:53 ... the systems team does not have time to do that 17:45:02 action-31 17:45:02 action-31 -- Harry Halpin to Will ask w3c systeam about prospect for archiving osf blog posts and perhaps other content -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED 17:45:02 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/31 17:45:04 tantek: w3c has the database... 17:45:07 hhalpin: no, opensocial has the database 17:45:08 who set up the drupal? it was google sites before 17:45:18 ... contact is on the email list 17:45:31 tantek: let's stop referring to opensocial since they don't exist. greg wallace has the database 17:45:57 ___: they don't care because it's too much work to set up the database, but are they willing to host html pages? 17:46:04 hhalpin: no they don't want to host the html either 17:46:08 ... they don't want to put any time into this 17:46:18 tantek: it sounds like your'e saying the systems team doesn't even have a copy of the database 17:46:19 s/___:/bblfish/ 17:46:28 hhalpin: correct, that was not part of the deal, the deal was a domain redirect 17:46:31 archive.org seems to have crawled it: https://web.archive.org/web/20140228134017/http://opensocial.org/ 17:46:37 ... systems team claims they do not have the database nor the resources to maintain 17:46:40 can someone who cares about those broken links just follow up on https://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/31 ? 17:46:48 s/bblfish they/bblfish: they/ 17:46:59 tantek: greg is willing to share the database is my understanding 17:47:12 ... think we could put out an open call for someone to extract teh DB and provide a static snapshot? 17:47:16 hhalpin: if someone wants to do it that would be great 17:47:25 might be easier to unmung it from archive.org? 17:47:26 tantek++ 17:47:29 tantek has 162 karma 17:47:29 tantek: certainly i think it makes sense to put out an open ca 17:47:31 ll 17:47:45 Guest has joined #social 17:47:49 tantek: i didn't realize putting up a static copy would be so difficult 17:48:03 hhalpin: you'd have to reinstall drupal, import the SQL database, then snapshot every page 17:48:07 ... then probably redo any permalinks 17:48:10 database antipattern in action 17:48:11 sounds like a bit of work 17:48:13 ... it's non-trivial amount of work 17:48:27 tantek: harry would it be reasonable to make the minor request of you to acquire a copy of the SQL dump from greg? 17:48:34 hhalpin: i think anyone who wants to do it can contact greg directly 17:48:47 ... that person can email greg if they want to volunteer 17:48:49 I'll get a copy of the db dump from Greg 17:48:53 tantek: do we have any volunteers to acquire a SQL dump? 17:49:00 And see if I can convert the SQL into something more useful 17:49:02 o_O 17:49:08 sandro++ 17:49:09 I'll upload it somewhere ;) 17:49:10 sandro: and then mail it to the mailing list so that it's in a copy of the acrhives 17:49:11 sandro has 3 karma 17:49:13 rhiaro++ 17:49:16 rhiaro has 16 karma 17:49:17 tantek: i can't tell how serious you're being sandro 17:49:19 rhiaro++ 17:49:20 sandro: me either, depends on how big it is 17:49:21 rhiaro++ 17:49:22 rhiaro has 17 karma 17:49:24 rhiaro has 18 karma 17:49:25 rhiaro++ 17:49:28 rhiaro has 19 karma 17:49:29 Action rhiaro: acquire SQLdump of OpenSocial site database and upload somewhere 17:49:29 Created ACTION-47 - Acquire sqldump of opensocial site database and upload somewhere [on Amy Guy - due 2015-03-17]. 17:49:47 tantek: okay that gets us one step closer to not having everything lost forever 17:49:52 tantek: i had an update on action 26 17:49:54 action-26 17:49:54 action-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats due jan 14, 2015 -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN 17:49:54 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/26 17:50:12 ... i've started the apparently lenghty process of going through the examples 17:50:17 ... i'll be upfront, there are some serious issues with them 17:50:26 ... i've opene a github issue to start to document the classes of issues i'm encountering 17:50:30 ...while trying to fix the examples 17:50:38 the_frey has joined #social 17:50:44 PR++ 17:50:47 PR has 3 karma 17:50:49 ... my approach is to document the patterns of problems as well as try to at least issue an incremental pull reuqest to fix a few examples at a time 17:51:00 ... so that they can be reviewed by james and anyone else so that we're heading in a good direction 17:51:06 i do same for RDFa https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/75 17:51:07 ... i'd rather do it incrementally instead of 900 at once 17:51:20 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/83 17:51:21 and did for Turtle https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/70 17:51:22 ... if anyone else would like to help out with this task i strongly encourage you to jump in and contribute to the detailsi nt he github issue 17:51:25 tilgovi has joined #social 17:51:28 did james make the examples by hand or form the JSON-LD? 17:51:33 ... because i'd rather make sure we have good analysius of how we are fixing the issues 17:51:40 AnnB: example sof which? 17:51:46 tantek: microformats examples in AS 2.0 spec 17:51:49 KevinMarks, JSON-LD normative - microformats just an informative 17:51:49 AnnB: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues 17:52:04 ... i want to be very deliberate about fixing them, hopefully so we can acquire more comunity knowledge about how to do html markup for activity streams 17:52:08 that wasn't the question, elf-pavlik 17:52:23 q? 17:52:26 KevinMarks, i think by hand from JSON-LD 17:52:27 ack aaronpk 17:52:39 is there a way to transform the supposedly normative version in LD to the others 17:52:43 q+ 17:52:46 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-10#Activity_Streams_2.0 17:52:46 tantek: next subject AS 2.0 17:52:53 yes 17:52:56 TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0 17:53:00 issue-14 17:53:00 issue-14 -- as:Link adds a lot of complexity, if we keep it we need to clarify consequences of using it instead of as:Object -- open 17:53:00 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/14 17:53:07 ack elf-pavlik 17:53:23 elf-pavlik: AS allows for more values to be the object or link, and i found it complicating the spec a lot 17:53:26 action-42 17:53:26 action-42 -- Pavlik elf to MediaObject - gather options for its social syntax on a wiki page -- due 2015-03-10 -- OPEN 17:53:26 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/42 17:53:43 ... at this moment, the link is used mostly for images, to say for this image this is the media type and sizes 17:54:04 ... there are a few intentions of the Link 17:54:10 ... one is to describe the versions of images you can get for a resources 17:54:29 ... the second one seems to be ----- 17:54:47 ... my main concern is it is expressing the same information in multiple ways 17:55:14 ... i want to encourage everyone to consider AS Link and we can discuss in the f2f 17:55:23 seperate 17:55:25 tantek: okay that convers the first action, 17:55:27 action-44 17:55:27 action-44 -- Pavlik elf to Collection - compare AS2 design with LDP, Hydra, Schema.org etc. -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN 17:55:27 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/44 17:55:37 q? 17:55:38 q+ 17:55:44 ack elf-pavlik 17:55:51 elf-pavlik: currently AS defines its own way of doing collections 17:55:59 ... we also ahve the LD platform and hydra working with collections 17:56:03 ... i would like to compare all of them 17:56:08 ... by f2f I will have a more deep comparison 17:56:15 ... to clarify how to do collections 17:56:47 ... collections are very important, i think it wuould be good to give it a good thoguht to implement it correctly 17:56:54 ... i'd encourage everyone to take al ook at the issue about collections 17:57:02 ... hopefuly at the f2f we can cdiscuss it 17:57:12 tantek: you mentioned there is ome discussion about collections in the Hydra group 17:57:15 ... and you also mentioned implementing. 17:57:24 ... do you have any references to implemenations of the converstaions 17:57:42 elf-pavlik: i think harry and sandro can point us to some, i wil check about hydra, i don't know about activitystreams 17:57:57 tantek: okay, specifically the request is for references to implementations, or even better, a public collection or container post 17:58:12 wilco! 17:58:14 ... that shows the structure of it. so if you can provide a permalink for how those systems publish a collection that will help with the analysis 17:58:33 ... as a comparison, i can show you that there are folks in the indieweb community posting collections 17:58:34 http://indiewebcamp.com/collection#IndieWeb_Examples 17:58:46 ... here is a list of permalinks of collection posts 17:58:54 ... so see ifyou can find similar collection post with the other approaches 17:59:28 elf-pavlik: maybe someone from indieweb can add examples from the indiewebcamp list 17:59:40 tantek: you can simply add that URL and keep it as a reference 17:59:49 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Collection_Comparison 17:59:53 sandro: i'll take a look at what you did there and add a parallel for LDP 18:00:02 tantek: we have one additional agenda item 18:00:12 TOPIC: participation in mailing list conversations 18:00:18 tantek: how much time do you need for this issue 18:00:29 bblfish: i've been told that not everyone is following or commenting on the mailing list 18:00:39 q+ 18:00:39 can you use the Wiki? 18:00:46 ... the qyuestion is where is discussion happening if not the mailing list 18:00:54 tantek: discussion is certainly happening in the telcon and also in IRC 18:01:02 ... to provide some background, which has been minuted, 18:01:03 +Sandro.a 18:01:07 -Sandro 18:01:15 ... when harry reached out to myself and evan to co-chair the WG and ask us to bring our perspectives 18:01:24 ... specifically for me to bring the indieweb perspective and processes 18:01:25 i watch the email list, but I dont post very much 18:01:40 ... i made the point that all the progress we've made was done without a mailing list 18:01:49 ... part of the culture was to focus on showing by building instead of email discussions 18:02:09 ... so I told harry i'd help co-chari but deliberately not participate in the mailing list so that I can provide the specific cultuer you asked us to bring to the WG 18:02:19 i can bridge anything from the mailing to to IRC, if anyone feels the opposite about IRC 18:02:26 bret++ 18:02:29 bret has 55 karma 18:02:38 bblfish: i think we should ask the group to take a few more ___ I can't followyou around to have a discussion 18:02:48 ... i dont think this is a reasonable thing to ask or a reasonable way to work 18:02:53 ... idon't see how else to have a discussion 18:03:02 ... i'm going to say we start to voteon the mailing list 18:03:04 vote on having a mailing list? 18:03:11 ... i don't know the indieweb, i don't know what they do, i heard the make al ot of noise 18:03:16 ... i'm not sure they've done anything useful 18:03:17 q? 18:03:23 ... i don't know what they're doing because you're not in a disucssion 18:03:47 why not sue the issues process? 18:03:47 ... i can put an example in an email and be clear and have links, what is better? a blog? a tweet? 18:03:58 tantek: to answer your qeustion, the answer is yes, put it on your personal site 18:04:01 s/sue/use/ 18:04:20 ...and by providing that pushback, we have found two groups, people who want to discuss in email, and people who want to take up the challenge and put things on their site 18:04:30 ... with that focus, that's what we've been able to achieve 18:04:50 could I suggest a public mailing list in addition to the closed one this group has ... that worked well with LDP ... and would be more "social" 18:04:51 ... if you want a quick summary, we have p2p comments, replies, reposts, rsvps, invitations, all working across domains, across implementaions with numerous implementations 18:05:01 ... that's something i understand no other group has been able to achieve 18:05:14 bblfish: but now i have to use the indieweb protocol to communicate with you 18:05:16 tantek: that's a strawman 18:05:22 ... i just gave you a summary of what you've done 18:05:31 q? 18:05:32 bblfish: so you have an API for pinging and such, so you require i implement opensocial 18:05:38 tantek: i don't know of anyone who is using opensocial 18:05:41 bblfish: oh i meant indieweb 18:05:56 hhalpin: it's clear people prefer different comm channels, I do unsuccessfully try to track email wiki and irc 18:06:01 ... i know other people try to do all three 18:06:06 indieweb implementations is not required to participate here. afaict we use: github issues, mailing list, irc and wiki 18:06:08 ... i underrstnad people have different preferences 18:06:16 ... i would prefer it if everyone would try to check all 3 or 4 18:06:29 ... but understand if people don't, we can't force peopel to discuss with each other, or answer all questions 18:06:42 bblfish: why do we still have a WG then? we should close it down and wait a year 18:06:47 hhalpin: we have 3 channels and a telcon 18:06:49 bblfish-- 18:06:51 bblfish has -1 karma 18:06:52 (bblfish clarified that he misspoke about 'opensocial' .. he meant "IndieWeb") 18:07:00 ... if you're unhappy with someone you should raise it with that person 18:07:05 bblfish++ 18:07:08 bblfish has 0 karma 18:07:10 elf-pavlik, please let's not -- people 18:07:13 melvster++ 18:07:16 melvster has 6 karma 18:07:19 elf-pavlik-- 18:07:19 -Lloyd_Fassett 18:07:19 voting of the wiki worked for us on user stories 18:07:20 You can't karma yourself! 18:07:20 q+ 18:07:28 the data shapes WG does vote on the wiki actually :) 18:07:29 we did vote on user stories in the wiki 18:07:33 hhalpin: it soundsl ikeoyuh ave problem with tantek not responding to your emails 18:07:43 bblfish: no, he doesn't respond to any emails and doesn't even read them 18:07:46 Open issues instead 18:07:46 and we did too on the stories 18:08:01 ... so this is a problem of communication, he's saying we need to use blogging tools and APIs, 18:08:07 blogging tool requirement is a miscomunication 18:08:13 AnnB++ 18:08:14 too much karma! 18:08:19 hhalpin: you can talk to him on IRC and on the telcon, i would prefer if he would read emails but we can't force him 18:08:25 we actually have 4 channels... github issues 18:08:27 OH MY GOD I CANT TYPE THIS FAST 18:08:41 arguable the most important... since it actually references the spec directly 18:08:47 why not create issues, Henry? https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/14 18:08:50 (4) 18:09:04 might i suggest that if one particular "topic" can't be completed via mailing list that it gets put on the telecon agenda. it will slow the velocity of the team but might be a compromise? 18:09:05 hhalpin: the WG is about producing standards. we have3 channels, irc email and wiki. all three are available as html 18:09:15 bblfish: can we have a list of all the people in the WG refuse to use email? 18:09:17 There are 3 communication channels: 1) IRC 2) wiki 3) mailing list 18:09:21 ... and we can list all the times on IRC they are available 18:09:24 that should be enough. 18:09:26 Henry: use https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/ 18:09:30 maybe do a issue like KevnMarks suggested and discussed on the phone 18:09:35 IRC has !tell, that was stated over email 18:09:49 it performs async and you can link to specific emails 18:09:50 -bill-looby 18:09:58 I sympathize with Henry, it is hard to have one conversation that way 18:10:07 is harry on irc? 18:10:09 but I don't expect this problem to go away 18:10:18 q+ to note that re: timezones and indieweb - we have plenty of people in Germany, Australia, and other timezones that are able to have very good productive conversations. 18:10:23 elf-pavlik: other harry 18:10:28 -ben_thatmustbeme 18:10:29 the one talking 18:10:39 my phone just dropped out 18:10:45 I have to go back to work, i'll be on in IRC only 18:10:48 ah ok cool 18:11:01 q+ can we ask Henry to use https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/ instead of email for back adn forth 18:11:13 o_O 18:11:18 q+ 18:11:27 q? 18:11:29 bblfish++ 18:11:30 However, we cannot force people to use particular messages. 18:11:33 IRC is logged and has async 18:11:37 ack hhalpin 18:11:49 hhalpin: we cannot force people to use specific channels 18:11:53 I'd like to know who refuses to use some of the channels 18:11:54 ack AnnB 18:11:56 sorry, we're way over time now 18:11:56 s/use particular/specific channels or respond to particular messages 18:12:03 tantek: i'm going to put an 11:15 hard stop 18:12:09 We would prefer it if people tried to check multiple channels 18:12:29 Loqi, 18:12:34 AnnB: the one thing i don't get, i try to log in and follow it, 18:12:52 ... henry, that's one thing these guys have brought to this, a way to put something into IRC and alerts someone to follow up 18:12:54 !tell bblfish 'sup 18:12:55 Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next 18:12:55 !tell AnnB hi AnnB! 18:12:56 Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next 18:12:57 ... maybe someone can demonstrate this 18:13:12 !tell bblfish how many unread eamial 18:13:13 Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next 18:13:13 ... i understand the indieweb people don't like to use email, so that "!tell somebody something" is valulable 18:13:38 ... how do you accomplish that if not in email? 18:13:41 we have long conversation on IRC 18:13:43 q? 18:13:51 ack KevinMarks 18:13:53 oops, that should have been minuted 18:13:55 annb: but I am sympathetic to henry's concern, i don't understand how ... it's hard to have a longer conversation 18:14:19 AnnB++ 18:14:22 AnnB: part of it is education for some of us 18:14:24 annb: how is one to have longer detailed conversations on email 18:14:30 bblfish: elf-pavlik left you a message 1 minute ago: 'sup 18:14:34 bblfish: KevinMarks left you a message 1 minute ago: how many unread eamial 18:14:39 In my experience, most developers I know are using a mixture of IRC and git rather than email in open-source projects 18:14:43 its easier to stay on the same page in IRC.. its really easy on email to totally lose someone after the first paragraph. in irc you can address issues imediately rather than 6 paragraphs in 18:14:45 tantek: the short answer is that email can lead to unproductive discussions 18:14:54 Along with regular scrum meetings. 18:14:55 AnnB: we are tryign to learn, but IRC doesn't cut it for anything longer than a couple sentences 18:15:09 tantek: there are plenty of places to put longer content than IRC and then put URLs 18:15:13 webmentions, Ann 18:15:15 Arnaud++ 18:15:20 AnnB: i guess we're going to have to talk about this at the F2F, it's still quite a confusion 18:15:20 you can write a blogpost into an email list, just paste the URL in 18:15:23 email being very unproductive is one of the reasons things like Slack have seen such an update 18:15:25 q+ 18:15:25 AnnB, can you add it to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17 18:15:29 uptake* 18:15:31 AnnB: I don't quite get it yet 18:15:38 tantek: i think there's a lot of folks that would happily help 18:15:41 ack KevinMarks 18:15:57 KevinMarks: i think what henry wants is a formal backand forth that is acknowledged, so if that's what he wants, use the issue tracker 18:15:59 trackbot++ 18:16:02 q? 18:16:06 Tsyesika has joined #social 18:16:06 tantek: we're out of time 18:16:10 ack tantek 18:16:10 tantek, you wanted to note that re: timezones and indieweb - we have plenty of people in Germany, Australia, and other timezones that are able to have very good productive 18:16:13 ... conversations. 18:16:14 AnnB: ask in here 18:16:15 ack hhalpin 18:16:31 how does Issue Tracker work for discussion? 18:16:38 hhalpin: we do want to see check all channels, we understand that 3 channels IRC wiki and mailing list, we understand that may be a lot for people 18:16:39 AnnB: bret left you a message 3 minutes ago: hi AnnB! 18:16:44 I post a question as an issue? and then someone responds? 18:16:53 ... nonetheless, we should all try to communicate with each other, there's nothing we can do to force peopel to communicate with each other 18:16:59 ... weshould assume we're all operating in good faith 18:17:04 that doesn't seem like a discussion 18:17:09 AnnB, please don't use ISSUEs in tracker like that! 18:17:21 ... in terms of mailing list vs non mailing list, it's a factual note that almost all open source projects have been moving away from mailing list onto IRC and tickets 18:17:23 we need to have formal process to open and close them 18:17:25 I thought that's what Kevin proposed 18:17:27 hm 18:17:30 just trying to unders5tand 18:17:31 Most of these tools end up sending e-mails out, so for the moment one ends up with e-mail overflow 18:17:31 ... it's not surprising that over time we're seeing shifts to other mediums, 18:17:39 ... as long as it's documented we're fine with that 18:17:39 gotta end this call 18:17:43 AnnB, let's discuss it next week during face 2 face? 18:17:44 actually it looks like the github issues were what I was lookignat 18:17:52 tantek: thanks for the summary. i'd encourage anyone else who wants to continue this discussion to hang out in IRC 18:17:53 -Arnaud 18:17:54 -bret 18:17:54 -bblfish 18:17:56 -AdamB 18:17:57 -harry 18:17:58 -aaronpk 18:17:59 -elf-pavlik 18:18:01 -Sandro.a 18:18:04 hhalpin: why not make it mandatory for chairs to read the mailing list in a WG ... for example, it's mandatory to send regrets via the mailing list when you cant meet ... surely the chair shoudl be reading that? 18:18:04 -tantek 18:18:05 this https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues 18:18:05 -rhiaro 18:18:05 Again, we understand that three communications channels may be too much. 18:18:13 cc tantek ^ 18:18:14 oh is it over? 18:18:18 already? 18:18:18 -KevinMarks 18:18:31 melvster because it was a condition of becoming a co-chair that we could ignore the mailing list 18:18:34 is better than https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/ 18:18:40 But that we can all try to read the various channels and keep abreast, understanding we have diffierent priorities and styles. 18:18:42 I do want to continue the conversation on this. Sorry to be slow, but I do not think we have a good way for a *discussion* 18:18:46 based on previous *years* of experience that "social web" mailing lists are mostly irrelevant and unproductive 18:18:49 tantek: politics politics :) 18:18:49 W3C process cannot force anyone to read messages. 18:18:52 but it might be that I just do not understand 18:18:55 trackbot: end meeting 18:18:55 Zakim, list attendees 18:18:55 As of this point the attendees have been +1.971.275.aaaa, AdamB, aaronpk, Arnaud, +1.401.305.aabb, elf-pavlik, ben_thatmustbeme, bblfish, Lloyd_Fassett, Ann, tantek, rhiaro, 18:18:58 and counter-evidence that indieweb has succeeded WITHOUT a mailing list 18:18:59 ... Sandro, bill-looby, bret, harry, jasnell, +1.408.335.aacc, KevinMarks 18:19:03 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:19:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-minutes.html trackbot 18:19:04 RRSAgent, bye 18:19:04 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-actions.rdf : 18:19:04 ACTION: testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [1] 18:19:04 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc#T17-32-47 18:19:04 ACTION: bblfish to testing ontology using ontology testing by verifying that there are no inconsistencies at that level [2] 18:19:04 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc#T17-33-02 18:19:04 ACTION: hhalpin to add details to issue-18 [3] 18:19:04 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc#T17-43-04 18:19:04 ACTION: rhiaro to acquire SQLdump of OpenSocial site database and upload somewhere [4] 18:19:04 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-social-irc#T17-49-29 18:19:11 so mailing list is just informal water cooler - purely optional 18:19:16 sorry that I am slower than you tantek .. such is life .. dealing with humans is a challeng 18:19:21 melvster - not politics, but rather focus on building