Publishing Working Group Telco — Minutes

Date: 2018-10-08

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log

Attendees

Present: Wolfgang Schindler, Tzviya Siegman, Dave Cramer, Jeff Buehler, Chris Maden, Benjamin Young, Ivan Herman, David Stroup, Teenya Franklin, Luc Audrain, George Kerscher, Avneesh Singh, Deborah Kaplan, Lillian Sullam, Hadrien Gardeur, Laurent Le Meur, Charles LaPierre, Ric Wright, Bill Kasdorf, Marisa DeMeglio, Tim Cole, Brady Duga, Romain Deltour, Murata Makoto

Regrets: matt, Garth Conboy, Gregorio Pellegrino, Rachel Comerford, Marisa DeMeglio, Vladimir Levantovsky, Juan Corona, Joshua Pyle, Wendy Reid, Franco Alvarado, Ben Walters

Guests:

Chair: Tzviya Siegman

Scribe(s): Dave Cramer, Benjamin Young

Content:

1. minutes

Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-10-01-pwg.html

Tzviya Siegman: any comments?
… minutes approved

Resolution #1: last week’s minutes accepted

Tzviya Siegman: we’ll discuss the issues of use cases next week
… let’s dive into issue 271

2. WP Rendering in non WP aware browsers

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/271

Tzviya Siegman: what happens what happens if one opens a WP in a non-WP-aware user agent (aka “browser”)
… if this all boils down to affordances, we need to move back to affordances
… Franco has volunteered to help with use cases
… that was a short topic

3. Navigation elements beyond the ToC

Ivan Herman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/223

Tzviya Siegman: navigational objects beyond the TOC
… Avneesh, are you on the call?

Avneesh Singh: I have summarized this
… reinforcing what Ivan has mentioned
… following model of toc for pagelist
… pagelist should also be in entry doc

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/223#issuecomment-427001284

Avneesh Singh: we ensure that a non-wp aware browser could present it
… would be identified by DPUB-ARIA 1.1 role
… the link to pagelist can also be provided in manifest
… can be in resources or can be in reading order
… so WP-aware UA can parse manifest to find this, and decide what to do

Tzviya Siegman: if no objections, we can ask matt to update the spec

Ivan Herman: since we discussed this issue
… we found a can of worms around the TOC
… so saying its the same as toc can be complicated
… there are a lot of pending issues around TOC
… how is it the same semantically as toc, and how is it different?

Avneesh Singh: the concept is similar, can be placed in entry doc and referred to by manifest
… other than this we don’t need to follow same rules

Tzviya Siegman: I agree with Avneesh. Other issues are separate.

Ivan Herman: that’s fine
… we introduce into the document another category we call pagelist, with these features?

Tzviya Siegman: yes

Ivan Herman: can we have that recorded as a resolution? it needs to appear in lots of places, such as the webIDL

Tzviya Siegman: let’s vote

Proposed resolution: add a pagelist into the draft, including the webidl, along the way toc is added (Ivan Herman)

Jeff Buehler: +1

Avneesh Singh: +1

Tzviya Siegman: +1

Marisa DeMeglio: +1

Bill Kasdorf: +1

George Kerscher: Avneesh, you mentioned two sets of pagelists?
… wouldn’t there normally be one?

Avneesh Singh: yes

Wolfgang Schindler: +1

Tzviya Siegman: I didn’t understand the question

Dave Cramer: there could certainly be multiple Page-lists
… or multiple pagelists because of varying publications of the same content

Ivan Herman: I put in a proposed resolution
… as an editor, I would like if someone, maybe Avneesh, would send me a paragraph that gives a short and compact description of what the page list is
… can one of you send it to me?

Avneesh Singh: yes

Ivan Herman: I can put it into the text sometime this week

Wolfgang Schindler: pagelist for me presupposes a print edition with pagenumbers
… or it would a paginated view of my html doc, which would require page ids and page numbers in my data
… is that right? a list that relates page numbers to fragment ids?

Avneesh Singh: yes, that’s correct
… the page list means identifying the exact position of the page breaks in print editions

Wolfgang Schindler: using fragment IDs?

Avneesh Singh: yes

Ivan Herman: I understand what Hadrien is saying, it’s not part of the webidl

Ivan Herman: there is another question
… we find pagelist with role=doc-pagelist
… but if we use the same structure for TOC we should have a link relation which we use
… for TOC there is an IANA link relation
… is there one for pagelist, or should we define our own?

Tzviya Siegman: would there be a problem using toc for this, too?
… it is a kind of TOC

Ivan Herman: I would be hesitant, but I don’t know

George Kerscher: to wolfgang’s question, there is also the notion of a virtual page, even if there’s no print equivalent, you can put in these links

Avneesh Singh: regarding IANA entry, I think using TOC may be misleading
… it’s a machine-readable thing
… it’s a different item

Ivan Herman: for the time being I can put in our own URL, like for the cover

Bill Kasdorf: I wanted to stress that a toc and pagelist is different
… one is structural.

Tzviya Siegman: I think we’re dTOC with this issue, we have details like the rel value to work out

Resolution #2: add a pagelist into the draft, including the webidl, along the way toc is added

Wolfgang Schindler: +1 to BillK’s description of the difference

Tzviya Siegman: we’ve agreed to ivan’s proposal above, now it’s editorial
… and Hadrien will open an issue about the webidl

4. incubation

Tzviya Siegman: benjamin emailed pointed out that we have an outstanding issue about a space for incubation
… so when people have implementations or experiments to share
… there was a proposal to go through the WICG

Tzviya Siegman: https://discourse.wicg.io/search?q=dpub

Ivan Herman: it was hardly discussed, it was at the end of a call

Tzviya Siegman: if you go to the above url, there is a DPUB category
… WICG is a very public place
… . where should new ideas go?

Dave Cramer: I do have some concerns around how the WICG is operating right now
… there seems to be two major threads in the discussion there
… first, it seems to be partly folks working with browsers–notably employees at Google–where they make announcements around things they’re already doing elsewhere
… second, there are random people who post ideas around things they’d like and ultimately get shot down by the people who work for browsers
… it’s not really a healthy place
… and the topic area is really broad, so it doesn’t feel like a good place for thought experiments

Tzviya Siegman: you should share those concerns with Brian
… I mentioned such things to Brian and he was shocked

Deborah Kaplan: there’s a lot of people there who aren’t aware of what happens outside of HTML and the big-name working groups
… I’ve been in conversations there, and people are VERY confident about the part of the elephant they see :)
… you get shot down with great confidence, when they have no context around our industry

Deborah Kaplan: speaking up with confidence there when being shot down by high-authority tech people who don’t understand the issues

Benjamin Young: I would plus one Dave and Deborah
… I think we should have a Publishing Community Group
… I think every working group should have a matching CG
… it’s worked well in my experience
… the lack of one has hurt us, I think

Charles LaPierre: +1 on Publishing CG

Benjamin Young: we need to explore things that might be out of charter
… lots of innovation gets left on the floor
… Annotations groups have done this, as have JSON-LD

Romain Deltour: I agree with Benjamin
… we could use our own CG and WICG
… we could work on things in PCG and then bring to WICG
… the most challenging issue is always finding resources

George Kerscher: I like this idea a lot for political reasons
… we’ve been criticized for a WG being so tight-knit and not having other people having input
… and great place to incubate software and approaches

Marisa DeMeglio: big plus one million to all this
… I’ve experienced what Deborah talked about
… people at DBW wanted to know what was going on with ebook standards

Tzviya Siegman: this was not what I was expecting, but we all were agreeing on a CG

Romain Deltour: the risk with a CG is that it’s more difficult to break out of our silo
… that’s a big challenge
… if you want to incubate web tech we have to reach out to the broader web context, especially browser vendors
… but the timing is key, reaching out to these people early
… with a CG we can’t keep working in isolation

Tzviya Siegman: we seem to be in a violent agreement
… having the CG is a great idea
… there are lots of logistics
… if any wants to volunteer to chair the CG
… we can take this offline
… it’s in keeping with how the rest of the w3c works
… lots of people here have great ideas
… and it would be good to have a place to speak up

Benjamin Young: I’m not volunteering to chair :)
… can we start the CG space before we have chairs?
… just starting a CG gives us some useful infrastructure

Ivan Herman: yes and no
… yes, you can set up a CG without chairs
… but somebody has to write a concise paragraph describing what the CG is all about
… that person can start the CG process
… they get some infrastructure automatically, like a mailing list
… they must convince me and ralph to set up a repo in w3c space
… and then there’s the possibility to publish reports under the w3c name
… the question is what to do

Benjamin Young: I can volunteer to write a paragraph

Ivan Herman: then start the process

Benjamin Young: I can fill out the form and launch things

Ivan Herman: we have the first step

Tzviya Siegman: thank you benjamin

George Kerscher: benjamin, were you planning to circulate the paragraph here? I would love to take a look and help edit

Benjamin Young: or you can write it :)
… the PWG is seeking a space to collaborate on innovation and experiments…

George Kerscher: I’d like to add relationships to WG, BG, the EPUB3 CG, etc.

Benjamin Young: anyone can propose a CG
… this only gets this much discussion because we’re sharing a name with PWG

Dave Cramer: don’t let the BG interfere :)

Tzviya Siegman: let’s get this started

5. TPAC agenda

Tzviya Siegman: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mt9PTcOdmrCwIsgfxbGMGjwHlUsySU01I0D4oBkSbcA/edit?usp=sharing

Tzviya Siegman: we’re still moving things around for the tpac agenda
… let us know if you have questions
… let us know if you’re coming to dinner monday night
… looks like we’ll be paying for our own meal
… it’s two weeks away :)

6. AOB

Tzviya Siegman: now, is there any other business?

Tzviya Siegman: next week we’ll talk about use cases and affordances.
… thanks everyone!

7. Resolutions