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15:46:27 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/10/08-pwg-irc
15:46:28 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:46:28 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:46:28 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:46:28 <ivan> Date: 2018-10-08
15:46:28 <ivan> Regrets+ matt, garth, gpellegrino, rachel, marisa, vlad, Juan_Corona, Josh
15:46:28 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Oct/0008.html
15:46:29 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting 2018-10-08: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2018Oct/0008.html
15:50:10 <ivan> regrets+ wendyreid
15:53:00 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pwg
15:53:02 <dauwhe> Oh gosh... Hachette sends us the email announcing the holiday "toast" (we can't afford a party anymore) on a federal holiday where we have to be at work
15:55:42 <dauwhe> S and C are home :)
15:56:09 <tzviya> present+
15:56:44 <dauwhe> present+
15:57:41 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:58:43 <jbuehler> jbuehler has joined #pwg
15:58:44 <ivan> I am in alone?
15:58:53 <ivan> now closed, too
15:59:08 <cmaden2> cmaden2 has joined #pwg
15:59:21 <bigbluehat> present+ Benjamin_Young
15:59:45 <ivan> present+
15:59:53 <david_stroup> david_stroup has joined #pwg
16:00:06 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
16:00:46 <Teenya> Teenya has joined #pwg
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16:01:18 <ivan> present+ teenya
16:01:22 <ivan> present+ george
16:01:28 <Teenya> Teenya has joined #pwg
16:01:29 <tzviya> zakim, pick a victim
16:01:29 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose dauwhe
16:01:31 <ivan> present+ jbuehler
16:01:42 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
16:01:43 <Teenya> present+
16:01:44 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pwg
16:02:12 <ivan> present+ deborah
16:02:14 <George> George has joined #pwg
16:02:23 <dauwhe> Zakim, do you accept bribes?
16:02:23 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dauwhe.
16:02:27 <Avneesh> present+
16:02:30 <lsullam> lsullam has joined #pwg
16:02:30 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pwg
16:02:30 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #pwg
16:02:32 <ivan> present+ bigbluehat
16:02:35 <dauwhe> topic: minutes
16:02:37 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2018/2018-10-01-pwg.html
16:02:41 <dauwhe> tzviya: any comments?
16:02:41 <laurentlemeur> present+ laurent
16:02:46 <lsullam> present+
16:02:53 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #pwg
16:02:53 <laudrain> present+
16:02:54 <dauwhe> ... minutes approved
16:02:58 <ivan> present+ lsullam
16:03:08 <ivan> resolved: last week's minutes accepted
16:03:33 <dauwhe> ... we'll discuss the issues of use cases next week
16:03:41 <dauwhe> ... let's dive into issue 271
16:03:48 <ivan> present+ clapierre
16:03:52 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/271
16:03:59 <rkwright> rkwright has joined #pwg
16:04:16 <rkwright> present+
16:04:29 <dauwhe> ... what happens what happens if one opens a WP in a non-WP-aware user agent (aka "browser")
16:04:31 <ivan> Topic: WP Rendering in non WP aware browsers
16:04:43 <dauwhe> ... if this all boils down to affordances, we need to move back to affordances
16:04:55 <ivan> regrets+ franco
16:04:59 <dauwhe> ... Franco has volunteered to help with use cases
16:05:16 <dauwhe> ... that was a short topic
16:05:22 <ivan> Topic:Navigation elements beyond the ToC
16:05:29 <dauwhe> ... issue 223
16:05:32 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/223
16:05:33 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/223
16:05:36 <dauwhe> ... navigational objects beyond the TOC
16:05:44 <dauwhe> ... Avneesh, are you on the call?
16:05:53 <dauwhe> Avneesh: I have summarized this
16:05:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg
16:06:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:06:01 <dauwhe> ... reinforcing what Ivan has mentioned
16:06:12 <dauwhe> ... following model of toc for pagelist
16:06:19 <marisa> marisa has joined #pwg
16:06:22 <dauwhe> ... pagelist should also be in entry doc
16:06:23 <marisa> present+
16:06:24 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/223#issuecomment-427001284
16:06:36 <dauwhe> ... we ensure that a non-wp aware browser could present it
16:06:47 <dauwhe> ... would be identified by DPUB-ARIA 1.1 role
16:07:13 <dauwhe> ... the link to pagelist can also be provided in manifest
16:07:19 <timCole> timCole has joined #pwg
16:07:20 <dauwhe> ... can be in resources or can be in reading order
16:07:43 <dauwhe> ... so WP-aware UA can parse manifest to find this, and decide what to do
16:08:11 <ivan> q+
16:08:14 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:08:15 <dauwhe> tzviya: if no objections, we can ask matt to update the spec
16:08:16 <duga> duga has joined #pwg
16:08:28 <duga> present+
16:08:34 <dauwhe> ivan: since we discussed this issue
16:08:43 <dauwhe> ... we found a can of worms around the TOC
16:08:57 <dauwhe> ... so saying its the same as toc can be complicated
16:09:00 <MURATA> MURATA has joined #pwg
16:09:13 <dauwhe> ... there are a lot of pending issues around TOC
16:09:17 <Avneesh> q+
16:09:31 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
16:09:31 <dauwhe> ... how is it the same semantically as toc, and how is it different?
16:09:52 <dauwhe> Avneesh: the concept is similar, can be placed in entry doc and referred to by manifest
16:10:00 <dauwhe> ... other than this we don't need to follow same rules
16:10:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: I agree with Avneesh. Other issues are separate.
16:10:11 <dauwhe> ivan: that's fine
16:10:33 <dauwhe> ... we introduce into the document another category we call pagelist, with these features?
16:10:45 <dauwhe> tzviya: yes
16:11:06 <dauwhe> ivan: can we have that recorded as a resolution? it needs to appear in lots of places, such as the webIDL
16:11:20 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's vote
16:11:23 <jbuehler> +1
16:11:24 <Avneesh> +1
16:11:27 <tzviya> +1
16:11:28 <marisa> +1
16:11:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:11:41 <dauwhe> George: Avneesh, you mentioned two sets of pagelists?
16:11:46 <dauwhe> ... wouldn't there normally be one?
16:11:48 <dauwhe> Avneesh: yes
16:12:11 <wolfgang> +1
16:12:14 <dauwhe> q+
16:12:26 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:12:27 <dauwhe> tzviya: I didn't understand the question
16:12:40 <bigbluehat> scribenick: bigbluehat
16:12:40 <ivan> q+
16:12:48 <bigbluehat> dauwhe: there could certainly be multiple ToC's
16:13:10 <bigbluehat> ...or multiple pagelists because of varying publications of the same content
16:13:15 <wolfgang> q+
16:13:16 <tzviya> s/ToC's/Page-lists
16:13:22 <bigbluehat> scribenick: dauwhe
16:13:23 <ivan> proposed: add a pagelist into the draft, including the webidl, along the way toc is added
16:13:24 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:13:35 <dauwhe> ivan: I put in a proposed resolution
16:14:02 <dauwhe> ... as an editor, I would like if someone, maybe Avneesh, would send me a paragraph that gives a short and compact description of what the page list is
16:14:16 <dauwhe> ... can one of you send it to me?
16:14:18 <dauwhe> Avneesh: yes
16:14:29 <dauwhe> ivan: I can put it into the text sometime this week
16:14:37 <tzviya> ack wolfgang
16:14:55 <dauwhe> wolfgang: pagelist for me presupposes a print edition with pagenumbers
16:15:05 <Avneesh> q+
16:15:20 <dauwhe> ... or it would a paginated view of my html doc, which would require page ids and page numbers in my data
16:15:31 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
16:15:32 <dauwhe> ... is that right? a list that relates page numbers to fragment ids?
16:15:44 <dauwhe> Avneesh: yes, that's correct
16:16:06 <dauwhe> ... the page list means identifying the exact position of the page breaks in print editions
16:16:12 <ivan> q+
16:16:12 <dauwhe> wolfgang: using fragment IDs?
16:16:16 <dauwhe> Avneesh: yes
16:16:35 <dauwhe> ivan: I understand what he's saying, it's not part of the webidl
16:16:37 <George> q+
16:16:52 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:16:56 <dauwhe> ivan: there is another question
16:17:06 <dauwhe> ... we find pagelist with role=doc-pagelist
16:17:20 <dauwhe> ... but if we use the same structure for TOC we should have a link relation which we use
16:17:29 <dauwhe> ... for TOC there is an IANA link relation
16:17:39 <dauwhe> ... is there one for pagelist, or should we define our own?
16:17:54 <dauwhe> tzviya: would there be a problem using toc for this, too?
16:17:57 <Avneesh> q+
16:17:58 <dauwhe> ... it is a kind of TOC
16:18:05 <tzviya> ack George
16:18:06 <dauwhe> ivan: I would be hesitant, but I don't know
16:18:30 <dauwhe> George: to wolfgang's question, there is also the notion of a virtual page, even if there's no print equivalent, you can put in these links
16:18:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:18:45 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
16:19:01 <dauwhe> Avneesh: regarding IANA entry, I think using TOC may be misleading
16:19:18 <dauwhe> ... it's a machine-readable thing
16:19:24 <dauwhe> ... it's a different item
16:19:37 <dauwhe> ivan:  for the time being I can put in our own URL, like for the cover
16:19:45 <tzviya> ack ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:20:00 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:20:04 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I wanted to stress that a toc and pagelist is different
16:20:26 <dauwhe> ... one is structural.
16:20:40 <dauwhe> tzviya: I think we're done with this issue, we have details like the rel value to work out
16:20:46 <ivan> resolved: add a pagelist into the draft, including the webidl, along the way toc is added
16:20:52 <wolfgang> +1 to BillK's description of the difference
16:20:53 <dauwhe> ... we've agreed to ivan's proposal above, now it's editorial
16:21:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/one/TOC/
16:21:04 <dauwhe> ... and Hadrien will open an issue about the webidl
16:21:06 <romain> romain has joined #pwg
16:21:33 <dauwhe> tzviya: benjamin emailed pointed out that we have an outstanding issue about a space for incubation
16:21:39 <ivan> Topic: incubation
16:21:45 <dauwhe> ... so when people have implementations or experiments to share
16:21:57 <dauwhe> ... there was a proposal to go through the WICG
16:22:03 <tzviya> https://discourse.wicg.io/search?q=dpub
16:22:08 <dauwhe> ivan: it was hardly discussed, it was at the end of a call
16:22:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: if you go to the above url, there is a DPUB category
16:22:38 <dauwhe> ... WICG is a very public place
16:22:43 <dauwhe> q+
16:23:00 <dauwhe> .... where should new ideas go?
16:23:03 <bigbluehat> scribenick: dauwhe
16:23:04 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:23:05 <bigbluehat> ack dauwhe
16:23:20 <bigbluehat> dauwhe: I do have some concerns around how the WICG is operating right now
16:23:28 <bigbluehat> ...there seems to be two major threads in the discussion there
16:23:53 <bigbluehat> ...first, it seems to be partly folks working with browsers--notably employees at Google--where they make announcements around things they're already doing elsewhere
16:24:12 <bigbluehat> ...second, there are random people who post ideas around things they'd like and ultimately get shot down by the people who work for browsers
16:24:17 <bigbluehat> ...it's not really a healthy place
16:24:34 <MURATA> Bye, too sleepy.
16:24:35 <bigbluehat> ...and the topic area is really broad, so it doesn't feel like a good place for thought experiments
16:24:52 <dauwhe> tzviya: you should share those concerns with Brian
16:24:59 <bigbluehat> scribenick: dauwhe
16:24:59 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:24:59 <Zakim> Present: tzviya, dauwhe, wolfgang, Benjamin_Young, ivan, Chris_Maden, teenya, george, jbuehler, deborah, Avneesh, bigbluehat, laurent, lsullam, laudrain, clapierre, rkwright,
16:25:02 <tzviya> q+ dkaplan
16:25:04 <dauwhe> ... I mentioned such things to Brian and he was shocked
16:25:04 <Zakim> ... Bill_Kasdorf, marisa, duga, romain
16:25:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see romain, MURATA, duga, timCole, marisa, Bill_Kasdorf, rkwright, clapierre, laurentlemeur, Hadrien, lsullam, George, Avneesh, Teenya, laudrain, david_stroup, cmaden2,
16:25:04 <Zakim> ... jbuehler, wolfgang, RRSAgent, Zakim, ivan, dauwhe, jyasskin, tzviya, plinss, github-bot, dmitry, bigbluehat, astearns
16:25:07 <ivan> present+ makoto
16:25:11 <tzviya> ack dkaplan
16:25:18 <bigbluehat> q+
16:25:32 <dauwhe> dkaplan: there's a lot of people there who aren't aware of what happens outside of HTML and the big-name working groups
16:25:56 <dauwhe> ... I've been in conversations there, and people are VERY confident about the part of the elephant they see :)
16:26:14 <dauwhe> ... you get shot down with great confidence, when they have no context around our industry
16:26:16 <laudrain> Sorry, I have to leave the call.
16:26:50 <dauwhe> ... speaking up with confidence there when being shot down by high-authority tech people who don't understand the issues
16:26:56 <tzviya> q?
16:27:03 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:27:19 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: I would plus one Dave and Deborah
16:27:28 <dauwhe> ... I think we should have a Publishing Community Group
16:27:37 <dauwhe> ... I think every working group should have a matching CG
16:27:43 <dauwhe> ... it's worked well in my experience
16:27:51 <dauwhe> ... the lack of one has hurt us, I think
16:28:13 <clapierre> +1 on Publishing CG
16:28:13 <romain> q+
16:28:19 <dauwhe> ... we need to explore things that might be out of charter
16:28:28 <dauwhe> ... lots of innovation gets left on the floor
16:28:38 <George> q+
16:28:40 <tzviya> ack romain
16:28:46 <dauwhe> ... Annotations groups have done this, as have JSON-LD
16:28:51 <dauwhe> romain: I agree with Benjamin
16:29:00 <dauwhe> ... we could use our own CG and WICG
16:29:16 <dauwhe> ... we could work on things in PCG and then bring to WICG
16:29:27 <tzviya> ack George
16:29:30 <dauwhe> ... the most challening issue is always finding resources
16:29:39 <dauwhe> George: I like this idea a lot for political reasons
16:29:53 <wolfgang> s/challening/challenging/
16:30:01 <dauwhe> ... we've been criticized for a WG being so tight-knit and not having other people having input
16:30:02 <marisa> q+
16:30:16 <tzviya> ack marisa
16:30:16 <dauwhe> ... and great place to incubate software and approaches
16:30:25 <dauwhe> marisa: big plus one million to all this
16:30:39 <dauwhe> ... I've experienced what Deborah talked about
16:30:56 <dauwhe> ... people at DBW wanted to know what was going on with ebook standards
16:31:02 <romain> q+
16:31:08 <tzviya> ack romain
16:31:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: this was not what I was expecting, but we all were agreeing on a CG
16:31:32 <dauwhe> romain: the risk with a CG is that it's more difficult to break out of our silo
16:31:39 <dauwhe> ... that's a big challenge
16:31:56 <dauwhe> ... if you want to incubate web tech we have to reach out to the broader web context, especially browser vendors
16:32:05 <dauwhe> ... but the timing is key, reaching out to these people early
16:32:22 <dauwhe> ... with a CG we can't keep working in isolation
16:32:34 <dauwhe> tzviya: +1 to what ivan wrote
16:32:40 <dauwhe> ... having the CG is a great idea
16:32:47 <dauwhe> ... there are lots of logistics
16:33:00 <dauwhe> ... if any wants to volunteer to chair the CG
16:33:04 <dauwhe> ... we can take this offline
16:33:11 <bigbluehat> q+
16:33:12 <dauwhe> ... it's in keeping with how the rest of the w3c works
16:33:18 <dauwhe> ... lots of people here have great ideas
16:33:23 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:33:26 <dauwhe> ... and it would be good to have a place to speak up
16:33:32 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: I'm not volunteering to chair :)
16:33:35 <ivan> q+
16:33:42 <dauwhe> ... can we start the CG space before we have chairs?
16:34:06 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:34:10 <dauwhe> ... just starting a CG gives us some useful infrastructure
16:34:13 <dauwhe> ivan: yes and no
16:34:22 <dauwhe> ... yes, you can set up a CG without chairs
16:34:45 <dauwhe> ... but somebody has to write a concise paragraph describing what the CG is all about
16:34:47 <bigbluehat> q+
16:34:54 <dauwhe> ... that person can start the CG process
16:35:07 <dauwhe> ... they get some infrastructure automatically, like a mailing list
16:35:18 <dauwhe> ... they must convince me and ralph to set up a repo in w3c space
16:35:37 <dauwhe> ... and then there's the possiblility to publish reports under the w3c name
16:35:43 <dauwhe> ... the question is what to do
16:35:49 <tzviya> ack bigbluehat
16:36:00 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: I can volunteer to write a paragraph
16:36:04 <dauwhe> ivan: then start the process
16:36:15 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: I can fill out the form and launch things
16:36:24 <dauwhe> ivan: we have the first step
16:36:32 <George> q+
16:36:33 <dauwhe> tzviya: thank you benjamin
16:36:40 <tzviya> ack George
16:36:59 <dauwhe> George: benjamin, were you planning to circulate the paragraph here? I would love to take a look and help edit
16:37:05 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: or you can write it :)
16:37:21 <ivan> regrets+ BenWaltersMS
16:37:29 <dauwhe> ... the PWG is seeking a space to collaborate on innovation and experiments...
16:37:45 <dauwhe> George: I'd like to add relationshiops to WG, BG, the EPUB3 CG, etc.
16:38:06 <dauwhe> wq+
16:38:08 <dauwhe> q+
16:38:14 <wolfgang> s/relationshiops/relationships/
16:38:23 <dauwhe> bigbluehat: anyone can propose a CG
16:38:39 <dauwhe> ... this only gets this much discussion because we're sharing a name with PWG
16:38:55 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:39:44 <dauwhe> dauwhe: don't let the BG interfere :)
16:39:51 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's get this started
16:40:27 <ivan> Topic: TPAC agenda
16:40:30 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mt9PTcOdmrCwIsgfxbGMGjwHlUsySU01I0D4oBkSbcA/edit?usp=sharing
16:40:40 <dauwhe> ... we're still moving things around for the tpac agenda
16:41:00 <dauwhe> ... let us know if you have questions
16:41:08 <dauwhe> ... let us know if you're coming to dinner monday night
16:41:29 <dauwhe> ... looks like we'll be paying for our own meal
16:41:36 <dauwhe> ... it's two weeks away :)
16:41:44 <ivan> Topic: AOB
16:41:50 <dauwhe> ... now, is there any other business?
16:42:36 <dauwhe> tzviya: next week we'll talk about use cases and affordances.
16:42:39 <dauwhe> ... thanks everyone!
16:42:52 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:42:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/08-pwg-minutes.html ivan
16:42:52 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:42:52 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:42:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:42:52 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been tzviya, dauwhe, wolfgang, Benjamin_Young, ivan, Chris_Maden, teenya, george, jbuehler, deborah, Avneesh, bigbluehat, laurent,
16:42:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwg
16:42:55 <Zakim> ... lsullam, laudrain, clapierre, rkwright, Bill_Kasdorf, marisa, duga, romain, makoto