Publishing Working Group Telco — Minutes
See also the Agenda and the IRC Log
Present: Deborah Kaplan, Toshiaki Koike, Laura Brady, Jeff Buehler, Dave Cramer, Tzviya Siegman, Ivan Herman, Chris Maden, Wolfgang Schindler, Mateus Teixeira, Lillian Sullam, Peter Krautzberger, Teenya Franklin, Jasmine Mulliken, Charles LaPierre, Garth Conboy, Evan Owens, Vladimir Levantovsky, Bill Kasdorf, Luc Audrain, Marisa DeMeglio, George Kerscher, Hadrien Gardeur, Benjamin Young, Brady Duga, Mustapha Lazrek, Ben Schroeter, Zheng Xu, Jun Gamou, Tim Cole, Bill McCoy, Avneesh Singh, Matt Garrish
Regrets: Evan Owens, Ric Wright, Romain Deltour, Joshua Pyle, Nick Ruffilo, Gregorio Pellegrino, Laurent Le Meur
Chair: Tzviya Siegman
Scribe(s): Dave Cramer
- 1. F2F Logistics
- 2. Task force plans
- 3. Issues proposed for closure
- 3.1. Issue 1 (i18n of metadata values, in case JSON is chosen as a serialization format)
- 3.2. issue 2 (Navigating a web publication)
- 3.3. issue 9 (Machine-Readable navigation)
- 3.4. issue 13 (Associating a manifest with publication resources)
- 3.5. issue 22 (manifest: requirements for offline)
- 3.6. issue 23 (MUST the manifest include information about secondary resources or not?)
- 3.7. issue 39 (Do all documents in the reading order have to be reachable from the ToC)
- 3.8. issue 69 (Naming the media overlay work)
- 3.9. issue 70 (Relationship to the Web Animation work)
- 3.10. issue 72 (MathML and WPUB)
- 3.11. issue 74 (the infoset should not include specialised metadata ???)
- 3.12. issue 121 (Working out the manifest life cycle)
- 3.13. issue 124 (Expressing metadata in multiple scripts/languages)
- 4. Issues that may be closed
- 5. Misc
- 6. Resolutions
Tzviya Siegman: shall we approve the minutes?
Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minu5-tes/2018/2018-03-05-minutes
Tzviya Siegman: minutes approved
… anyone new joining the call this week?
1. F2F Logistics
Tzviya Siegman: let’s review some F2F logistics/agenda stuff
Tzviya Siegman: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Qe8Q8wMC1LKy_-JO-UCy8bFw4D4VN0si1Q5EPW9c-rY/edit#
Tzviya Siegman: here’s a link to F2F info
… please propose agenda items there
… please add your name if you’re attending
… Wendy said she will send a link so we can book on our own, but that hasn’t happened yet
… but we need to talk about the agenda
… we need to think of deliverables for before the F2F
… one of the goals of the task forces was for them to accomplish something before the F2F
2. Task force plans
Tzviya Siegman: Jasmine/Mateus, can you give us an overview of what you hope to accomplish before the F2F?
Mateus Teixeira: one of our goals is to review open issues, and identify ones that can close
… and then look at tech requirements for open issues
… and then have a draft towards completion of the affordances section
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/labels/topic%3Aaffordances
Mateus Teixeira: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Atopic%3Aaffordances
Jasmine Mulliken: and we hope to do a call this week
Mateus Teixeira: we have a few times that might work
… having a call this week would make sense, Tuesday or Wednesday
Ivan Herman: I am supposed to set up a webex?
Mateus Teixeira: yes, I’ll confirm with you
Tzviya Siegman: there were problems with doodle and DST
Benjamin Young: the WAM task force will work on anything tagged with that label
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/labels/topic%3Amanifest
Benjamin Young: we’re mostly focusing on direct requests
… especially things that have applicability outside publishing
Ivan Herman: did I miss a call for timing?
Benjamin Young: there’s a doodle poll; there will be an email about a call soon
… we’ll go through the list on the first call
… then work on github, then a follow-up call
Tzviya Siegman: anything else as a deliverable?
Dave Cramer: (silence)
3. Issues proposed for closure
Tzviya Siegman: last week, ivan put together a list of issues that were closable
… we can spend the rest of the meeting closing issues
Tzviya Siegman: https://gist.github.com/iherman/581247543c670faa30f1ab89ff1c11eb
Ivan Herman: the low-number issues were the ones that led to long discussions
… my tendency would be to close those
Tzviya Siegman: I don’t think it’s a good use of time to read through every comment of issue 1 :)
Peter Krautzberger: I’ve been following on github so I assume I have.
Tzviya Siegman: I don’t think it’s a good use of time to read through the list
Garth Conboy: or do we want to close them and wait for complaints?
Tzviya Siegman: I don’t think it’s productive for me to read issues
Dave Cramer: https://gist.github.com/iherman/581247543c670faa30f1ab89ff1c11eb
Garth Conboy: read the issues not the topics?
3.1. Issue 1 (i18n of metadata values, in case JSON is chosen as a serialization format)
Dave Cramer: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/1
Tzviya Siegman: Issue 1; do we agree to close it?
Tzviya Siegman: the other issue is PR 129???
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/pull/129
Deborah Kaplan: ivan has made notes about why these are closable
Hadrien Gardeur: Ivan and myself has introduced new language in the draft to deal with this
Tzviya Siegman: I’m seeing agreement to close #1
Brady Duga: do all these issues have your summaries?
Ivan Herman: yes
Resolution #1: close issue 1
3.2. issue 2 (Navigating a web publication)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/2
Tzviya Siegman: navigating a web pub; this is obsoleted by the current infoset and the affordances discussion
… it’s covered in our doc
Ivan Herman: proposed closing
Resolution #2: close issue 2
3.3. issue 9 (Machine-Readable navigation)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/9
Tzviya Siegman: machine readable navigation
… the comments lost focus, let’s close and create more focused issues
… we should look more closely
… Avneesh, could you look at this and see if it needs new issues
Rachel Comerford: +1 to closing issue and opening specific tickets
Avneesh Singh: it has grown in too many directions
Benjamin Young: there’s still tension about where things come from
… the machine-readable-navigation things
… some like nav stuff from HTML, others want it expressed in JSON
Tzviya Siegman: that has been picked up in other issues around webidl
Benjamin Young: I’ll try to link back
Mateus Teixeira: +1 to closing 9 & reopening focused issues or moving discussions to other open issues
Resolution #3: close 9 and open new issues if needed
3.4. issue 13 (Associating a manifest with publication resources)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/13
Tzviya Siegman: associating manifest with pub resources
Proposed resolution: close the issue (Ivan Herman)
Tzviya Siegman: any comments?
Resolution #4: close issue 13
3.5. issue 22 (manifest: requirements for offline)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/22
Tzviya Siegman: manifest requirements for offline
… the issue has lost focus
… we should go through and make sure everything necessary is covered
… jasminemulliken, can this be part of the affordances task force
Jasmine Mulliken: I don’t see why not
Resolution #5: issue 22 will be closed by Jasmine, and if necessary new issues opened
3.6. issue 23 (MUST the manifest include information about secondary resources or not?)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/23
Tzviya Siegman: must manifest include secondary resources?
Ivan Herman: the secondary resources are part of the infoset
Resolution #6: close issue 23
3.7. issue 39 (Do all documents in the reading order have to be reachable from the ToC)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/39
Tzviya Siegman: do all docs in reading order have to be reachable from TOC
… this is covered in our current draft
Tzviya Siegman: any comments about closing this issue?
Resolution #7: close issue 39
3.8. issue 69 (Naming the media overlay work)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/69
Tzviya Siegman: this is now a separate CG for Media Overlays
… marisa, can you drop a link to the CG?
Resolution #8: close issue 69
Marisa DeMeglio: https://www.w3.org/community/sync-media-pub/
Luc Audrain: I’m in and not a DAISY member…
3.9. issue 70 (Relationship to the Web Animation work)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/70
Tzviya Siegman: this is also part of the CG for Media Overlays
Resolution #9: close issue 70
3.10. issue 72 (MathML and WPUB)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/72
Tzviya Siegman: mathml and web publications
… the issues of math are not in scope for this WG
Bill Kasdorf: I would suggest MathML is a best practices issue
Tim Cole: I agree with closing it, but am concerned with the language
… mathML being a problem is the implication
… it sounds like it’s being closed with prejudice
Tzviya Siegman: timCole, can you add a comment to the issue?
George Kerscher: I agree it should be closed
… we may find that the CG on best practices will bring us solutions
Charles LaPierre: DIAGRAM Center is working on this as well as a best practice and will share our solution with you all soon.
Resolution #10: close issue 72 but Tim Cole will add comments
Zheng Xu: so I hope can know where will this problem go?
Zheng Xu: Because we have a lot of problem of supporting MathML
Zheng Xu: done
Bill Kasdorf: my suggestion is that DAISY’s work is relevant, and about to be public, and belongs in the best practices work of the CG
Avneesh Singh: MathML is the current state, it is the best way for a11y, and belongs to EPUB3CG
… for PWG we just need to keep an eye on math in general; this issue can be closed
Tzviya Siegman: I think zheng_xu is speaking as a reading system developer for supporting math ml rather than supplying mathml
Zheng Xu: Yes. Thanks tzviya
Ivan Herman: the point is that, this WG cannot solve this problem
… I agree it’s a major problem, there are discussions outside this WG, I hope they lead somewhere
… but it can’t be this WG’s job to solve the problem. that’s why the issue should be closed.
3.11. issue 74 (the infoset should not include specialised metadata ???)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/74
Tzviya Siegman: infoset should not include specialized metadata
… which was a bit of a misunderstanding?
… we can link to any metadata in our infoset
… any comments?
… the proposal is to close because it is included in our current infoset
Hadrien Gardeur: the concept is that we’ll be linking to other metadata, but we haven’t discussed how
… will it be handled by the manifest? there’s work on how we handle that.
Ivan Herman: correct. but that was not how the issue was raised.
Tzviya Siegman: we need a more specific issue.
Ivan Herman: do we have it yet?
Tzviya Siegman: the issue we’ve been talking about with alternate rendering is similar, but not the same
… if the issue you mentioned isn’t open yet, open one
Hadrien Gardeur: we could use the same element to solve both of them
Tzviya Siegman: let’s open separate issues
Ivan Herman: the one in 74 was in a much more general level, the infoset level
… on that level we have consensus that we can refer to ONIX or whatever
… the details are still to be worked out
… but 74 is not about that
Tzviya Siegman: let’s open a new issue, and to see the problem stated. if there’s a proposed solution it can be a comment
Hadrien Gardeur: yes, but we do need the big picture
Ivan Herman: isn’t that part of the serialization details
Hadrien Gardeur: it’s more related to the infoset
Tzviya Siegman: I would prefer to see the solution separate from the question
Hadrien Gardeur: we’ve said we won’t have specialized metadata, but we haven’t said how to point to the metadata
Deborah Kaplan: I like the separation; hadrien’s concerns can be addressed by linking… “see main justification for this at link X”
Tzviya Siegman: if you want to leave the issue open, leave comments
Hadrien Gardeur: I can open a new one
Resolution #11: close issue 74
Tzviya Siegman: and Hadrien will open a new issue on how to do this
3.12. issue 121 (Working out the manifest life cycle)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/121
Tzviya Siegman: this is in the current draft
Ivan Herman: we should have closed this when the PR for the lifecycle section was accepted
Resolution #12: close 121
3.13. issue 124 (Expressing metadata in multiple scripts/languages)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/124
Tzviya Siegman: expressing metadata in multiple language
Dave Cramer: we’re closing 124 for the same reason as 121?
Ivan Herman: yes
Resolution #13: close issue 124
4. Issues that may be closed
4.1. issue 4 (Who is responsible for a publication’s user interface?)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/4
Tzviya Siegman: this is a precursor to the affordances task force
… we’ve revisited over and over
… I think it’s a good idea to close
… and the affordances TF will make us more comfortable with this; the TF can see if there’s anything useful in here
Jasmine Mulliken: we’ll take a look
Tzviya Siegman: any objections to closing this, and opening new issues as affordances?
Resolution #14: close issue 4
4.2. issue 5 (How do we identify a web publication and its components?)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/5
Tzviya Siegman: how to identify a WPUB and its components
… tim handled this with his doc, and there’s stuff in the infoset
… I think we’re covered here?
Tim Cole: I think there are open aspects of this issue, but I don’t think it’s settled
Tzviya Siegman: can you go through this and open new issues?
… over next 2-3 weeks?
Benjamin Young: I’ve been posted related thoughts to PWPUB repo… this identification of the parts as well as the whole matters
… the google web package formats doesn’t provide inter-pub links
Tzviya Siegman: any other comments?
Resolution #15: Tim Cole to review issue 5, and close after perhaps opening new issues
4.3. issue 35 (Proposal: an HTML-first Table of Contents approach to Web Publication)
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/35
Tzviya Siegman: this does seem to be different than our current proposal
Ivan Herman: dauwhe and bigbluehat started this
Tzviya Siegman: avk bigbluehat
Benjamin Young: I’ve continued to experiment with this in Dave’s html-first repo, on how to enable to have browsers discover this progressively
… it’s helped inform what I’m looking at with the WAM task force
… if we hoist a WP out of an HTML doc
… but HTML is the foundational layer we build on
… with hypermedia as a foundational affordance
… to the issue at hand, that would be the operating understanding expressed in terms of a fallback
… I’d love to explore this more as a group
… we still have yet to touch on DOM affordances, and how a web publication might understand itself and how it might be influenced by JS
… I would like to explore this, and have demos before the F2F
Ivan Herman: what do we do with this issue?
Benjamin Young: I’m ok with closing it
… it’s still a proposal
Benjamin Young: if rebooting with a fresh start would be helpful, than I’m ok with it
Tzviya Siegman: ivan proposes to close, is that OK/
Resolution #16: close issue 35
Garth Conboy: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Qe8Q8wMC1LKy_-JO-UCy8bFw4D4VN0si1Q5EPW9c-rY/edit#
Garth Conboy: the closing homework for non-chair-folk is to comment in the document we looked at initially for agenda items
George Kerscher: I’ll be at Web Accessibility Initiative F2F next week on guidelines 3.0 development
… and I’ll be emailing Avneesh on points we want to get into their roadmap that are important to publishing
Zheng Xu: another comment about #72 (MathML)
… I can understand that MathML isn’t in the scope of the wg
… what group or task force should we work with?
… we have lots of publishers using MathML
Dave Cramer: .. we are using JS liberary in Chrome, I would like to see better support in browsers
Zheng Xu: where should this issue go? Which group does this belong to?
Tim Cole: Another Community Group https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/
Hadrien Gardeur: readium take on MathML: we polyfilled with MathJax, in Readium 2 we won’t polyfill, we’lll be limited to what the browser can do
… but this is an issue for web as a whole
Tzviya Siegman: https://mathml.igalia.com/
Avneesh Singh: the screenreaders support MathML, so if browser exposes than JAWS can use
… it’s not only the reading system, it’s the screenreader
Zheng Xu: it’s very slow
Tzviya Siegman: I’ve posted some links. there’s a math CG, etc.
… w3c is aware of the problem
Zheng Xu: maybe there can be a joint task force with other groups
Tzviya Siegman: ivan will pay attention to this
… thanks all. work on the F2F agenda.
- Resolution #1: close issue 1
- Resolution #2: close issue 2
- Resolution #3: close 9 and open new issues if needed
- Resolution #4: close issue 13
- Resolution #5: issue 22 will be closed by Jasmine, and if necessary new issues opened
- Resolution #6: close issue 23
- Resolution #7: close issue 39
- Resolution #8: close issue 69
- Resolution #9: close issue 70
- Resolution #10: close issue 72 but Tim Cole will add comments
- Resolution #11: close issue 74
- Resolution #12: close 121
- Resolution #13: close issue 124
- Resolution #14: close issue 4
- Resolution #15: Tim Cole to review issue 5, and close after perhaps opening new issues
- Resolution #16: close issue 35