Publishing Working Group Telco — Minutes

Date: 2018-03-12

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log

Attendees

Present: Deborah Kaplan, Toshiaki Koike, Laura Brady, Jeff Buehler, Dave Cramer, Tzviya Siegman, Ivan Herman, Chris Maden, Wolfgang Schindler, Mateus Teixeira, Lillian Sullam, Peter Krautzberger, Teenya Franklin, Jasmine Mulliken, Charles LaPierre, Garth Conboy, Evan Owens, Vladimir Levantovsky, Bill Kasdorf, Luc Audrain, Marisa DeMeglio, George Kerscher, Hadrien Gardeur, Benjamin Young, Brady Duga, Mustapha Lazrek, Ben Schroeter, Zheng Xu, Jun Gamou, Tim Cole, Bill McCoy, Avneesh Singh, Matt Garrish

Regrets: Evan Owens, Ric Wright, Romain Deltour, Joshua Pyle, Nick Ruffilo, Gregorio Pellegrino, Laurent Le Meur

Guests:

Chair: Tzviya Siegman

Scribe(s): Dave Cramer

Content:

Tzviya Siegman: shall we approve the minutes?

Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minu5-tes/2018/2018-03-05-minutes

Tzviya Siegman: minutes approved
… anyone new joining the call this week?

1. F2F Logistics

Tzviya Siegman: let’s review some F2F logistics/agenda stuff

Tzviya Siegman: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Qe8Q8wMC1LKy_-JO-UCy8bFw4D4VN0si1Q5EPW9c-rY/edit#

Tzviya Siegman: here’s a link to F2F info
… please propose agenda items there
… please add your name if you’re attending
… Wendy said she will send a link so we can book on our own, but that hasn’t happened yet
… but we need to talk about the agenda
… we need to think of deliverables for before the F2F
… one of the goals of the task forces was for them to accomplish something before the F2F

2. Task force plans

2.1. Affordances

Tzviya Siegman: Jasmine/Mateus, can you give us an overview of what you hope to accomplish before the F2F?

Mateus Teixeira: one of our goals is to review open issues, and identify ones that can close
… and then look at tech requirements for open issues
… and then have a draft towards completion of the affordances section

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/labels/topic%3Aaffordances

Mateus Teixeira: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Atopic%3Aaffordances

Jasmine Mulliken: and we hope to do a call this week

Mateus Teixeira: we have a few times that might work
… having a call this week would make sense, Tuesday or Wednesday

Ivan Herman: I am supposed to set up a webex?

Mateus Teixeira: yes, I’ll confirm with you

Tzviya Siegman: there were problems with doodle and DST

2.2. WAM

Benjamin Young: the WAM task force will work on anything tagged with that label

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/labels/topic%3Amanifest

Benjamin Young: we’re mostly focusing on direct requests
… especially things that have applicability outside publishing

Ivan Herman: did I miss a call for timing?

Benjamin Young: there’s a doodle poll; there will be an email about a call soon
… we’ll go through the list on the first call
… then work on github, then a follow-up call

Tzviya Siegman: anything else as a deliverable?

Dave Cramer: (silence)

3. Issues proposed for closure

Tzviya Siegman: last week, ivan put together a list of issues that were closable
… we can spend the rest of the meeting closing issues

Tzviya Siegman: https://gist.github.com/iherman/581247543c670faa30f1ab89ff1c11eb

Ivan Herman: the low-number issues were the ones that led to long discussions
… my tendency would be to close those

Tzviya Siegman: I don’t think it’s a good use of time to read through every comment of issue 1 :)

Peter Krautzberger: I’ve been following on github so I assume I have.

Tzviya Siegman: I don’t think it’s a good use of time to read through the list

Garth Conboy: or do we want to close them and wait for complaints?

Tzviya Siegman: I don’t think it’s productive for me to read issues

Dave Cramer: https://gist.github.com/iherman/581247543c670faa30f1ab89ff1c11eb

Garth Conboy: read the issues not the topics?

3.1. Issue 1 (i18n of metadata values, in case JSON is chosen as a serialization format)

Dave Cramer: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/1

Tzviya Siegman: Issue 1; do we agree to close it?

Tzviya Siegman: the other issue is PR 129???

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/pull/129

Deborah Kaplan: ivan has made notes about why these are closable

Hadrien Gardeur: Ivan and myself has introduced new language in the draft to deal with this

Tzviya Siegman: I’m seeing agreement to close #1

Brady Duga: do all these issues have your summaries?

Ivan Herman: yes

Resolution #1: close issue 1

3.2. issue 2 (Navigating a web publication)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/2

Tzviya Siegman: navigating a web pub; this is obsoleted by the current infoset and the affordances discussion
… it’s covered in our doc

Ivan Herman: proposed closing

Resolution #2: close issue 2

3.3. issue 9 (Machine-Readable navigation)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/9

Tzviya Siegman: machine readable navigation
… the comments lost focus, let’s close and create more focused issues
… we should look more closely
… Avneesh, could you look at this and see if it needs new issues

Rachel Comerford: +1 to closing issue and opening specific tickets

Avneesh Singh: it has grown in too many directions

Benjamin Young: there’s still tension about where things come from
… the machine-readable-navigation things
… some like nav stuff from HTML, others want it expressed in JSON

Tzviya Siegman: that has been picked up in other issues around webidl

Benjamin Young: I’ll try to link back

Mateus Teixeira: +1 to closing 9 & reopening focused issues or moving discussions to other open issues

Resolution #3: close 9 and open new issues if needed

3.4. issue 13 (Associating a manifest with publication resources)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/13

Tzviya Siegman: associating manifest with pub resources

Proposed resolution: close the issue (Ivan Herman)

Tzviya Siegman: any comments?

Resolution #4: close issue 13

3.5. issue 22 (manifest: requirements for offline)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/22

Tzviya Siegman: manifest requirements for offline
… the issue has lost focus
… we should go through and make sure everything necessary is covered
… jasminemulliken, can this be part of the affordances task force

Jasmine Mulliken: I don’t see why not

Resolution #5: issue 22 will be closed by Jasmine, and if necessary new issues opened

3.6. issue 23 (MUST the manifest include information about secondary resources or not?)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/23

Tzviya Siegman: must manifest include secondary resources?

Ivan Herman: the secondary resources are part of the infoset

Resolution #6: close issue 23

3.7. issue 39 (Do all documents in the reading order have to be reachable from the ToC)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/39

Tzviya Siegman: do all docs in reading order have to be reachable from TOC
… this is covered in our current draft

Tzviya Siegman: any comments about closing this issue?

Resolution #7: close issue 39

3.8. issue 69 (Naming the media overlay work)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/69

Tzviya Siegman: this is now a separate CG for Media Overlays
… marisa, can you drop a link to the CG?

Resolution #8: close issue 69

Marisa DeMeglio: https://www.w3.org/community/sync-media-pub/

Luc Audrain: I’m in and not a DAISY member…

3.9. issue 70 (Relationship to the Web Animation work)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/70

Tzviya Siegman: this is also part of the CG for Media Overlays

Resolution #9: close issue 70

3.10. issue 72 (MathML and WPUB)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/72

Tzviya Siegman: mathml and web publications
… the issues of math are not in scope for this WG

Bill Kasdorf: I would suggest MathML is a best practices issue

Tim Cole: I agree with closing it, but am concerned with the language
… mathML being a problem is the implication
… it sounds like it’s being closed with prejudice

Tzviya Siegman: timCole, can you add a comment to the issue?

George Kerscher: I agree it should be closed
… we may find that the CG on best practices will bring us solutions

Charles LaPierre: DIAGRAM Center is working on this as well as a best practice and will share our solution with you all soon.

Resolution #10: close issue 72 but Tim Cole will add comments

Zheng Xu: so I hope can know where will this problem go?

Zheng Xu: Because we have a lot of problem of supporting MathML

Zheng Xu: done

Bill Kasdorf: my suggestion is that DAISY’s work is relevant, and about to be public, and belongs in the best practices work of the CG

Avneesh Singh: MathML is the current state, it is the best way for a11y, and belongs to EPUB3CG
… for PWG we just need to keep an eye on math in general; this issue can be closed

Tzviya Siegman: I think zheng_xu is speaking as a reading system developer for supporting math ml rather than supplying mathml

Zheng Xu: Yes. Thanks tzviya

Ivan Herman: the point is that, this WG cannot solve this problem
… I agree it’s a major problem, there are discussions outside this WG, I hope they lead somewhere
… but it can’t be this WG’s job to solve the problem. that’s why the issue should be closed.

3.11. issue 74 (the infoset should not include specialised metadata ???)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/74

Tzviya Siegman: infoset should not include specialized metadata
… which was a bit of a misunderstanding?
… we can link to any metadata in our infoset
… any comments?
… the proposal is to close because it is included in our current infoset

Hadrien Gardeur: the concept is that we’ll be linking to other metadata, but we haven’t discussed how
… will it be handled by the manifest? there’s work on how we handle that.

Ivan Herman: correct. but that was not how the issue was raised.

Tzviya Siegman: we need a more specific issue.

Ivan Herman: do we have it yet?

Tzviya Siegman: the issue we’ve been talking about with alternate rendering is similar, but not the same
… if the issue you mentioned isn’t open yet, open one

Hadrien Gardeur: we could use the same element to solve both of them

Tzviya Siegman: let’s open separate issues

Ivan Herman: the one in 74 was in a much more general level, the infoset level
… on that level we have consensus that we can refer to ONIX or whatever
… the details are still to be worked out
… but 74 is not about that

Tzviya Siegman: let’s open a new issue, and to see the problem stated. if there’s a proposed solution it can be a comment

Hadrien Gardeur: yes, but we do need the big picture

Ivan Herman: isn’t that part of the serialization details

Hadrien Gardeur: it’s more related to the infoset

Tzviya Siegman: I would prefer to see the solution separate from the question

Hadrien Gardeur: we’ve said we won’t have specialized metadata, but we haven’t said how to point to the metadata

Deborah Kaplan: I like the separation; hadrien’s concerns can be addressed by linking… “see main justification for this at link X”

Tzviya Siegman: if you want to leave the issue open, leave comments

Hadrien Gardeur: I can open a new one

Resolution #11: close issue 74

Tzviya Siegman: and Hadrien will open a new issue on how to do this

3.12. issue 121 (Working out the manifest life cycle)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/121

Tzviya Siegman: this is in the current draft

Ivan Herman: we should have closed this when the PR for the lifecycle section was accepted

Resolution #12: close 121

3.13. issue 124 (Expressing metadata in multiple scripts/languages)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/124

Tzviya Siegman: expressing metadata in multiple language

Dave Cramer: we’re closing 124 for the same reason as 121?

Ivan Herman: yes

Resolution #13: close issue 124

4. Issues that may be closed

4.1. issue 4 (Who is responsible for a publication’s user interface?)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/4

Tzviya Siegman: this is a precursor to the affordances task force
… we’ve revisited over and over
… I think it’s a good idea to close
… and the affordances TF will make us more comfortable with this; the TF can see if there’s anything useful in here

Jasmine Mulliken: we’ll take a look

Tzviya Siegman: any objections to closing this, and opening new issues as affordances?

Resolution #14: close issue 4

4.2. issue 5 (How do we identify a web publication and its components?)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/5

Tzviya Siegman: how to identify a WPUB and its components
… tim handled this with his doc, and there’s stuff in the infoset
… I think we’re covered here?

Tim Cole: I think there are open aspects of this issue, but I don’t think it’s settled

Tzviya Siegman: can you go through this and open new issues?
… over next 2-3 weeks?

Benjamin Young: I’ve been posted related thoughts to PWPUB repo… this identification of the parts as well as the whole matters
… the google web package formats doesn’t provide inter-pub links

Tzviya Siegman: any other comments?

Resolution #15: Tim Cole to review issue 5, and close after perhaps opening new issues

4.3. issue 35 (Proposal: an HTML-first Table of Contents approach to Web Publication)

Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/35

Tzviya Siegman: this does seem to be different than our current proposal

Ivan Herman: dauwhe and bigbluehat started this

Tzviya Siegman: avk bigbluehat

Benjamin Young: I’ve continued to experiment with this in Dave’s html-first repo, on how to enable to have browsers discover this progressively
… it’s helped inform what I’m looking at with the WAM task force
… if we hoist a WP out of an HTML doc
… but HTML is the foundational layer we build on
… with hypermedia as a foundational affordance
… to the issue at hand, that would be the operating understanding expressed in terms of a fallback
… I’d love to explore this more as a group
… we still have yet to touch on DOM affordances, and how a web publication might understand itself and how it might be influenced by JS
… I would like to explore this, and have demos before the F2F

Ivan Herman: what do we do with this issue?

Benjamin Young: I’m ok with closing it
… it’s still a proposal

Benjamin Young: if rebooting with a fresh start would be helpful, than I’m ok with it

Tzviya Siegman: ivan proposes to close, is that OK/

Resolution #16: close issue 35

5. Misc

Garth Conboy: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Qe8Q8wMC1LKy_-JO-UCy8bFw4D4VN0si1Q5EPW9c-rY/edit#

Garth Conboy: the closing homework for non-chair-folk is to comment in the document we looked at initially for agenda items

George Kerscher: I’ll be at Web Accessibility Initiative F2F next week on guidelines 3.0 development
… and I’ll be emailing Avneesh on points we want to get into their roadmap that are important to publishing

5.1. MathML

Zheng Xu: another comment about #72 (MathML)
… I can understand that MathML isn’t in the scope of the wg
… what group or task force should we work with?
… we have lots of publishers using MathML

Dave Cramer: .. we are using JS liberary in Chrome, I would like to see better support in browsers

Zheng Xu: where should this issue go? Which group does this belong to?

Tim Cole: Another Community Group https://w3c.github.io/mathonwebpages/

Hadrien Gardeur: readium take on MathML: we polyfilled with MathJax, in Readium 2 we won’t polyfill, we’lll be limited to what the browser can do
… but this is an issue for web as a whole

Tzviya Siegman: https://mathml.igalia.com/

Avneesh Singh: the screenreaders support MathML, so if browser exposes than JAWS can use
… it’s not only the reading system, it’s the screenreader

Zheng Xu: it’s very slow

Tzviya Siegman: I’ve posted some links. there’s a math CG, etc.
… w3c is aware of the problem

Zheng Xu: maybe there can be a joint task force with other groups

Tzviya Siegman: ivan will pay attention to this
… thanks all. work on the F2F agenda.

6. Resolutions