Publishing Working Group Telco — Minutes

Date: 2017-10-23

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log


Present: Leonard Rosenthol, Tzviya Siegman, Wolfgang Schindler, Avneesh Singh, Rachel Comerford, Baldur Bjarnason, Joshua Pyle, Dave Cramer, Luc Audrain, Matt Garrish, Ivan Herman, Romain Deltour, Chris Maden, JunGamo, Lillian Sullam, Evan Yamanishi, Jeff Printy, Bill Kasdorf, Garth Conboy, George Kerscher, Ric Wright, Hadrien Gardeur, Laurent Le Meur, Heather Flanagan, Marisa DeMeglio, Brady Duga, Tim Cole, Peter Krautzberger, Mateus Teixeira, Charles LaPierre, Deborah Kaplan

Regrets: Vladimir Levantovsky, Evan Owens, Reinaldo Ferraz, Nick Ruffilo


Chair: Tzviya Siegman

Scribe(s): Rachel Comerford


Wolfgang Schindler: *welcome back, leonard!

1. last week’s minutes

Tzviya Siegman:

Resolution #1: Meeting minutes approved

Tzviya Siegman: new members?

2. Packaging

Tzviya Siegman: this is on the agenda for TPAC
… security is not on the agenda for TPAC (confirmed by leonardr)
… packaging and web packaging are due in a few weeks
… we should define what our requirements are
… we can have a discussion or start a google doc

Leonard Rosenthol: the trick to packaging is that we’re looking at this as a “package neutral” approach
… anything we write up, we want to continue that approach

Tzviya Siegman:

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: one requirement is that the package can be quite large
… audio is a good reason for this

Dave Cramer: I hope we’re not proposing making our own pkg system. I would mention that the impact of existing pkging has an impact on our spec including manifest and other elements

Tzviya Siegman: we are hoping not to create something new

Ivan Herman: there is similar work to be done as we did for wp in terms of requirements gathering. Some notes in WP might be better suited for PWP.
… one thing we discussed is essential vs nonessential resources which is relevant for offlining and packaging

Dave Cramer: Notes we have formal requirements!

Ivan Herman: some of the security and integrity issues may be different when we talk about packaging and web packaging
… we must make it clear in the draft that it is not the goal of the group to create a new packaging format

Garth Conboy: at one time there was rough agreement (I thought it was a good idea) that we would have default reading order and then secondary stuff, that you could take offline
… back to leonardr comment about package neutral, this makes pwp a thin specification
… if pwp is going to be package neutral we need to also look at the epub4 profile to examine what an actual package will be

Baldur Bjarnason: in terms of what ivan said in terms of security, we need to support some sort of signing based on the domains.

Dave Cramer: +1 to Baldur

Baldur Bjarnason: if we want symmetry between packaged and unpackaged
… it needs to be something that can be easily implemented in a single work station. Some dialog with people that manage whatever format we go with to make sure they allow local host resources in packages because otherwise we are looking at a complex deployment with access control which is unmanageable

Rachel Comerford: Wolfgang what do you mean by package neutral in packaging

Dave Cramer: Unpackaging the Google format is exciting because you have to reverse the HPACK header compression

Luc Audrain: packaging and unpackaging : issues on server side to package (neutrality), and on device side to unpackage (low prerformance devices)

Garth Conboy: Indeed, seems odd!

Hadrien Gardeur: are we trying to have a single solution or are we considering multiple formats
… I don’t think we’d be able to do epub and a packaging format for the web at the same time. They are mutually exclusive

Dave Cramer: can you explain why the google packaging format would not work for epub?

Hadrien Gardeur: some of Jeffrey Yasskin’s answers made it clear that these would not work, including signing

Tzviya Siegman: we’re listing requirements not making decisions
… please add this as a requirement

Leonard Rosenthol: we should consider as a part of the process, on the PWP document - building a profile in real life will clearly help us see what’s generic vs profile specific

Garth Conboy: +1 Hadrien’s — the EPUB profile needs to support building publication that were never on the Web

Leonard Rosenthol: I can show the work we’ve done on pdf

Tzviya Siegman:

Tzviya Siegman: we haven’t agreed on generic packaging, this is a suggested requirements - let’s get these all down

Garth Conboy: Dave: no doubt, not disagreeing.

3. Archiving

Tzviya Siegman: we talked about including archiving as a part of one of these specs. Which spec does this belong to?

Hadrien Gardeur: this sounds related to pwp but I’m not sure it is. There will be requirements around versioning - which goes beyond pwp.

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I wonder if you can clarify what you mean by archiving

Tzviya Siegman: I have clarification from the digital publishing interest group

Leonard Rosenthol: example - the US national archives announced that as of 2022 they will not longer accept physical material for archiving, digital only

Ivan Herman: +1 to leonardr

Wolfgang Schindler: +1 to Leonard

Tzviya Siegman: DPUB IG archiving

George Kerscher: on a a call with Bill, we were told there was an ISO group working on archiving of epub3
… we should make sure we’re in sync

Luc Audrain: I’m not aware of this ISO work. I wanted to say that for legal reasons there is a project in France to archive ebooks in the national library.

Leonard Rosenthol: I have not heard anything about archival EPUB3 and I chair the relevant ISO SC (TC171SC2) where this would be expected to happen.

Bill Kasdorf: A NISO proposal was sent out to members

Tim Cole: you also need to know when a pub has changed requiring archiving change of whole or part

Tzviya Siegman: archiving - how to construct a file so it is deconstructable

Deborah Kaplan: archiving - how do we create a file that is preservable

Hadrien Gardeur: even though it’s tempting to look at each countries project, archiving here goes beyond that
… there are a number of groups at each national library that we can talk to. We need to keep both archiving ebooks and archiving the web in mind

Bill Kasdorf: Here’s some explanatory text that was included in the ballot from NISO:

Bill Kasdorf: “New versions of EPUB will be developed in W3C, since International Digital Publishing Forum merged to W3C in January 2017. In ISO, ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34 (Document description and processing languanges) co-ordinates EPUB standardization, but TC 46/SC 4 will for the time being be able to participate in the process due to our involvement in ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34/JWG 7 with JTC 1/SC 34 and IEC TA 100. JWG 7 is developing long term preservation -related spe[CUT]”

Bill Kasdorf: The balance of the quote I pasted in from the NISO ballot is important: “This specification will not be part of EPUB family of standards, but if an archivable version of the format (“EPUB/A”) is developed in the future, the results from JWG 7 can support the process.”

Leonard Rosenthol: back to the original question - are these wp or pwp? I think there are points that need to be on both

Tzviya Siegman: sounds as though we need archiving requirements for WP and PWP

Ivan Herman: we might want to consider having some kind of workshop where we bring together national library representatives to discuss archiving on both levels (WP and PWP)

Hadrien Gardeur: +1 ivan

Ivan Herman: most of the people in this group do not have an archiving background

Luc Audrain: +1 to archiving workshop

Deborah Kaplan: there are a number of people with the expertise from the archivist side in this group
… the same as any niche area within this group such as locators and accessibility

Leonard Rosenthol: PDF Conference being hosted by NARA & LOC -

Leonard Rosenthol: may be worth coordinating with them…

Tzviya Siegman: volunteers to work on archiving requirements
… dkaplan3 volunteers
… I think we can say that archiving requirements are to come

Luc Audrain: We should involve people from National Libraries

Leonard Rosenthol: link to paperless NARA article:

Ivan Herman: if we can do more that’s welcome

Bill Kasdorf: the NISO and ISO project is specifically regarding long term preservation which is one type of archiving

George Kerscher: I can ping Todd Carpenter from NISO and the deputy director of Library services if there’s something we would like to ask of them

Luc Audrain: I’ll contact people from the French National Library who cares about this point

Deborah Kaplan: we don’t need to get into the weeds right now
… there are “tiers” of archiving much like accessibility. There is a lot of research we can pull from to document

Bill Kasdorf: Francis Cave is excellent to work with

Garth Conboy: Tzviya says “quirky” when she might mean something else. :-)

4. Spring Face to Face

Tzviya Siegman:

Leonard Rosenthol: <clap><clap>

Tzviya Siegman: Kobo is hosting us in Toronto in May
… hopefully many of you can come
… thanks Kobo!


Tzviya Siegman:

Tzviya Siegman: we’ve pretty much finalized the agenda. This is your chance for last minute changes.

Avneesh Singh: regarding the accessibility tf meeting has been scheduled with Silver and APA We will talk about incorporating publishing in Silver or WCAG roadmap
… if main group people are interested they are welcome to join
… it’s monday at 3:30 or 4:30

Ivan Herman: send the exact info and I will add to the google doc

Ivan Herman: I’ve seen 2 pending questions/issues
… marcos cannot be at our web manifest meeting. Do we want to switch it to a better time for him?
… we do have a session for transitions, can we invite Samuel Petit
… I’ve said yes but I do not know if it will fit timewise
… we can finalize this wednesday

Hadrien Gardeur: this is a discussion we’re having within EDRLab as well
… we could target something more pragmatic

Ivan Herman: this Wednesday tzviya garth and I will finalize possibly with some minor changes
… garth is on the hook for selecting a restaurant

Leonard Rosenthol: +1 for dinner sounds good…

Luc Audrain: +1

Tzviya Siegman:

6. Open Pull Requests

Tzviya Siegman:

Tzviya Siegman: #87 is a point of clarification from mattg

Ivan Herman: just merge

Peter Krautzberger: thanks.

Wolfgang Schindler: Have a nice afternoon :)

Resolution #2: Merge #87

7. Resolutions