15:40:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwg
15:40:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/10/23-pwg-irc
15:40:42 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:40:42 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:40:42 <ivan> Chair: tzviya
15:40:42 <ivan> Date: 2017-10-23
15:40:42 <ivan> Regrets+ Vlad, Evan_Owens, clapierre, ReinaldoFerraz
15:40:42 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2017Oct/0037.html
15:40:43 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2017-20-23: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2017Oct/0037.html
15:50:44 <ivan> regrets+ NickRuffilo
15:54:22 <leonardr> leonardr has joined #pwg
15:54:26 <leonardr> present+ Leonard
15:54:42 <tzviya> present+
15:54:58 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:55:50 <wolfgang> Is gotomeeting already active?
15:56:17 <wolfgang> *welcome back, leonard!
15:56:20 <josh> josh has joined #pwg
15:56:20 <leonardr> Thanks @dauwhe - good to see me too!!
15:56:29 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pwg
15:57:37 <baldurbjarnason> baldurbjarnason has joined #pwg
15:58:27 <tzviya> scribenick: rachel
15:58:49 <Avneesh> present+
15:58:54 <rachel> present+
15:58:55 <cmaden2> cmaden2 has joined #pwg
15:59:01 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #pwg
15:59:04 <baldurbjarnason> present+
15:59:08 <josh> present+
15:59:12 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
15:59:13 <laudrain> present+ Luc
15:59:43 <mattg> present+
15:59:54 <JunGamo> JunGamo has joined #pwg
16:00:00 <ivan> present+
16:00:02 <rdeltour> present+
16:00:13 <cmaden2> present+ Chris_Maden
16:00:14 <lsullam> lsullam has joined #pwg
16:00:35 <evan> evan has joined #pwg
16:00:42 <JunGamo> present+ JunGamo
16:00:49 <jeffp> jeffp has joined #pwg
16:01:19 <lsullam> present+ Lillian Sullam
16:01:25 <evan> present+ Evan Yamanishi
16:01:32 <jeffp> present+ Jeff Printy
16:01:47 <laudrain> @Dave so impressve
16:02:24 <wolfgang> *looks quite dangerous to me @dauwhe!
16:02:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pwg
16:02:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:02:52 <garth> garth has joined #pwg
16:02:59 <garth> present +Garth
16:03:00 <laudrain> for sure !
16:03:03 <garth> Presnet+ George
16:03:05 <dauwhe> present+ George
16:03:11 <garth> present+ Garth
16:03:12 <rkwright> rkwright has joined #pwg
16:03:37 <rkwright> present+
16:03:53 <HeatherF> HeatherF has joined #pwg
16:04:05 <timCole> timCole has joined #pwg
16:04:31 <pkra> pkra has joined #pwg
16:04:33 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pwg
16:04:36 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2017/2017-10-16-minutes.html
16:04:43 <rachel> topic: last week's minutes
16:04:45 <Hadrien> present+
16:04:50 <ivan> RESOLVED: Meeting minutes approved
16:05:04 <laurentlemeur> laurentlemeur has joined #pwg
16:05:07 <rachel> tzviya: new members?
16:05:17 <laurentlemeur> presnet +
16:05:21 <laurentlemeur> present +
16:05:22 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pwg
16:05:34 <rachel> Topic: Packaging
16:05:40 <HeatherF> present+ Heather_Flanagan
16:05:43 <rachel> tzviya: this is on the agenda for TPAC
16:05:58 <marisa_demeglio> marisa_demeglio has joined #pwg
16:06:09 <rachel> ...security is not on the agenda for TPAC (confirmed by leonardr)
16:06:14 <duga> duga has joined #pwg
16:06:20 <duga> present+
16:06:26 <rachel> ... packaging and web packaging are due in a few weeks
16:06:38 <rachel> ...we hould define what our requirements are
16:06:41 <tzviya> q?
16:06:50 <rachel> ...we can have a discussion or start a google doc
16:06:55 <leonardr> q+
16:07:01 <garth> q?
16:07:01 <liisamk> q+
16:07:01 <George> George has joined #pwg
16:07:06 <tzviya> ack lr
16:07:13 <garth> ack leonardr
16:07:28 <timCole> present+ Tim_Cole
16:07:29 <dauwhe> q+
16:07:33 <George> George now on IRC
16:07:35 <rachel> leonardr: the trick to packaging is that we're looking at this as a "package neutral" approach
16:07:50 <rachel> ...anything we write up, we want to continue that approach
16:07:50 <tzviya> ack li
16:07:59 <ivan> q+
16:08:03 <rachel> liisamk: one requirement is that the pkg can be quite large
16:08:12 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15oig71-ybZDt7G-C0CGmf7KG9k35y0ggu7sXLRadH2k/edit?usp=sharing
16:08:16 <tzviya> ack da
16:08:19 <rachel> ...audio is a good reason for this
16:08:28 <Dave_Stroup> Dave_Stroup has joined #pwg
16:08:40 <baldurbjarnason> q+
16:08:46 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #pwg
16:08:54 <tzviya> q?
16:09:12 <rachel> dauwhe: I hope we're not proposing making our own pkg system. I would mention that the impact of existing pkging has an impact on our spec including manifest and other elements
16:09:16 <tzviya> q?
16:09:17 <garth> q+
16:09:20 <tzviya> ack iv
16:09:28 <rachel> tzviya: we are hoping not to create something new
16:09:35 <pkra> pkra has joined #pwg
16:09:41 <pkra> present+ pkra
16:10:02 <laudrain> q+
16:10:18 <rachel> ivan: there is similar work to be done as we did for wp in terms of requirements gathering. Some notes in WP might be better suited for PWP.
16:10:43 <rachel> ...one thing we discussed is essential vs nonessential resources which is relevant for offlining and packaging
16:11:02 <tzviya> q?
16:11:07 <dauwhe> Notes we have formal requirements! http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/index.html#pwp
16:11:08 <rachel> ...some of the security and integrity issues may be different when we talk about packaging and web packaging
16:11:34 <rachel> ...we must make it clear in the draft that it is not the goal of the group to create a new packaging format
16:11:40 <tzviya> q?
16:11:44 <tzviya> ack bald
16:12:00 <baldurbjarnason> For some reason Gotomeeting isn’t unmuting
16:12:00 <rachel> baldurbjarnason: [on mute]
16:12:07 <tzviya> ack ga
16:13:02 <rachel> garth: at one time there was rough agreement (I thought it was a good idea) that we would have default reading order and then secondary stuff, that you could take offline
16:13:26 <rachel> ...back to leonardr comment about package neutral, this makes pwp a thin specification
16:13:54 <tzviya> q+ to ask what package neutral means
16:13:55 <mateus> mateus has joined #pwg
16:13:55 <laudrain> they are 2 Baldur ! I don’t which one to help
16:13:59 <mateus> present+
16:14:01 <rachel> ...if pwp is going tobe package neutral we need to also look at the epub4 profile to examine what an actual package will be
16:14:07 <leonardr> q+
16:14:12 <wolfgang> q+
16:15:30 <rachel> baldurbjarnason: in terms of what ivan said in terms of security, we need to support some sort of signing based on the domains.
16:15:38 <dauwhe> +1 to Baldur
16:15:49 <rachel> ...if we want symmetry btwn packaged and unpackaged
16:16:40 <tzviya> q?
16:16:52 <tzviya> ack la
16:16:58 <rachel> ...it needs to be something that can be easily implemented in a single work station. Some dialog with people that manage whatever format we go with to make sure they allow local host resources in packages because otherwise we are looking at a complex deployment with access control which is unmanageable
16:17:13 <tzviya> q-
16:17:26 <leonardr> q-
16:17:46 <rachel> laudrain - I'm  having trouble hearing you; can you add your notes here?
16:17:56 <tzviya> ack wo
16:18:20 <rachel> ???: what do you mean by package neutral in packaging
16:18:29 <ivan> s/???/Wolfgang/
16:18:36 <clapierre> present+
16:18:43 <dauwhe> Unpackaging the Google format is exciting because you have to reverse the HPACK header compression
16:18:56 <Hadrien> q+
16:18:57 <laudrain> pckaging and unpackaging : issues on server side to package (neutrality), and on device side to unpackage (low prerformance devices)
16:19:19 <laudrain> s/pckaging/packaging/
16:19:22 <tzviya> ack ha
16:19:45 <garth> Indeed, seems odd!
16:19:54 <rachel> Hadrien: are we trying to have a single solution or are we considering multiple formats
16:20:59 <dauwhe> q?
16:21:01 <dauwhe> q+
16:21:06 <leonardr> q+
16:21:08 <tzviya> ack da
16:21:15 <rachel> ...I don't think we'd be able to do epub and a packaging format for the web at the same time. They are mutually exclusive
16:21:38 <rachel> dauwhe: can you explain why the google packaging format would not work for epub?
16:21:59 <rachel> Hadrien: some of ??? answers made it clear that these would not work, including signing
16:22:11 <tzviya> s/???/Jeffrey Yasskin
16:22:33 <tzviya> q?
16:22:45 <rachel> tzviya: we're listing requirements not making decisions
16:23:18 <rachel> ... please add this as a requirement
16:23:19 <tzviya> ack le
16:24:12 <rachel> leonardr: we should consider as a part of the process, on the PWP document - building a profile in real life will clearly help us see what's generic vs profile specific
16:24:13 <garth> +1 Hadrien’s — the EPUB profile needs to support building publication that were never on the Web
16:24:23 <rachel> ...I can show the work we've done on pdf
16:25:01 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15oig71-ybZDt7G-C0CGmf7KG9k35y0ggu7sXLRadH2k/edit?usp=sharing
16:25:03 <tzviya> q?
16:25:05 <rachel> tzviya: we haven't agreed on generic packaging, this is a suggested requirements - let's get these all down
16:25:24 <rachel> Topic: Archiving
16:25:24 <ivan> Topic: archiving
16:25:27 <garth> Dave: no doubt, not disagreeing.
16:25:44 <tzviya> q?
16:25:47 <Hadrien> q+
16:25:51 <tzviya> ack ha
16:25:53 <liisamk> q+
16:25:54 <rachel> tzviya: we talked about including archiving as a part of one of these specs. Which spec does this belong to?
16:26:15 <George> q+
16:26:24 <rachel> Hadrien: this sounds related to pwp but I'm not sure it is. There will be requirements around versioning - which goes beyond pwp.
16:26:27 <tzviya> ack li
16:26:37 <rachel> liisamk: I wonder if you can clarify what you mean by archiving
16:27:00 <laudrain> q+
16:27:04 <rachel> tzviya: I have clarification from the digital publishing interest group
16:27:32 <rachel> leonardr: example - the national archives announced that as of 2022 they will not longer accept physical material for archiving, digital only
16:27:42 <ivan> +1 to leonardr
16:27:42 <tzviya> ack ge
16:27:53 <wolfgang> +1 to Leonard
16:28:09 <ivan> q+
16:28:16 <tzviya> DPUB IG archiving https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/archival
16:28:16 <rachel> George: on a a call with Bill, we were told there was an ISO group working on archiving of epub3
16:28:26 <rachel> ...we should make sure we're in synch
16:28:27 <ivan> q-
16:28:34 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has joined #pwg
16:28:38 <tzviya> ack la
16:28:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:29:07 <ivan> q+
16:29:12 <Hadrien> q+
16:29:14 <tzviya> ack bill
16:29:15 <rachel> laudrain: I'm not aware of this ISO work. I wanted to say that for legal reasons there is a project in france to archive ebooks in the national library.
16:29:17 <leonardr> I have not heard anything about archival EPUB3 and I chair the relevant ISO SC (TC171SC2) where this would be expected to happen.
16:30:04 <rachel> Bill_Kasdorf: A NISO proposal was sent out to members
16:30:46 <tzviya> q?
16:31:11 <ivan> q-
16:31:35 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:31:35 <Zakim> Present: Leonard, tzviya, wolfgang, Avneesh, rachel, baldurbjarnason, josh, dauwhe, Luc, mattg, ivan, rdeltour, Chris_Maden, JunGamo, Lillian, Sullam, Evan, Yamanishi, Jeff,
16:31:38 <Zakim> ... Printy, Bill_Kasdorf, George, Garth, rkwright, Hadrien, Heather_Flanagan, duga, Tim_Cole, pkra, mateus, clapierre
16:31:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see dkaplan3, mateus, pkra, clapierre, Dave_Stroup, George, duga, marisa_demeglio, liisamk, laurentlemeur, Hadrien, timCole, HeatherF, rkwright, garth, Bill_Kasdorf,
16:31:38 <Zakim> ... jeffp, evan, lsullam, JunGamo, laudrain, cmaden2, baldurbjarnason, Avneesh, josh, leonardr, RRSAgent, Zakim, wolfgang, mattg, ivan, rdeltour, plinss, rachel, tzviya, dauwhe,
16:31:40 <timCole> you also need to know when a pub has changed requiring archiving change of whole or part
16:31:41 <rachel> tzviya: archiving - how to construct a file so it is deconstructable
16:31:42 <Zakim> ... github-bot, dbaron, jyasskin, astearns, bigbluehat, ShaneM, wseltzer
16:31:48 <ivan> present+ dkaplan3
16:31:55 <evan> evan has left #pwg
16:32:02 <rachel> dkaplan3: archiving - how do we create a file that is preservable
16:32:05 <tzviya> ack ha
16:32:15 <leonardr> q+
16:32:19 <evan> evan has joined #pwg
16:32:36 <rachel> Hadrien: even though it's tempting to look at each countries project, archiving here goes beyond that
16:33:06 <ivan> q+
16:33:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> Here's some explanatory text that was included in the ballot from NISO:
16:33:11 <rachel> ...there are a number of groups at each national library that we can talk to. We need to keep both archiving ebooks and archiving the web in mind
16:33:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> New versions of EPUB will be developed in W3C, since International Digital Publishing Forum merged to W3C in January 2017. In ISO, ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34 (Document description and processing languanges) co-ordinates EPUB standardization, but TC 46/SC 4 will for the time being be able to participate in the process due to our involvement in ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34/JWG 7 with JTC 1/SC 34 and IEC TA 100. JWG 7 is developing long term preservation -related spe[CUT]
16:33:13 <tzviya> ack le
16:33:45 <rachel> leonardr: back to the original question - are these wp or pwp? I think there are points that need to be on both
16:33:55 <tzviya> ack iv
16:34:11 <rachel> tzviya: sounds as though we need archiving requirements for WP and PWP
16:34:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> The balance of the quote I pasted in from the NISO ballot is important: "This specification will not be part of EPUB family of standards, but if an archivable version of the format ("EPUB/A") is developed in the future, the results from JWG 7 can support the process."
16:35:11 <rachel> ivan: we might want to consider  having some kind of workshop where we bring together national library representatives to discuss archiving on both levels (WP and PWP)
16:35:23 <Avneesh_> Avneesh_ has joined #pwg
16:35:23 <dkaplan3> q+
16:35:29 <Hadrien> +1 ivan
16:35:29 <tzviya> ack dk
16:35:31 <rachel> ... most of the people in this group do not have an archiving background
16:35:57 <laudrain> +1 to archiving workshop
16:36:23 <rachel> dkaplan3: there are a number of people with the expertise from the archivist side in this group
16:36:42 <rachel> ... the same as any niche area within this group such as locators and accessibility
16:36:51 <tzviya> q?
16:37:26 <leonardr> PDF Conference being hosted by NARA & LOC - https://www.pdfa.org/new/pdf-day-washington-dc-registration-is-now-open/
16:37:34 <leonardr> may be worth coordinating with them...
16:37:40 <rachel> tzviya: volunteers to work on archiving requirements
16:37:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:38:08 <rachel> ...dkaplan3 volunteers
16:38:18 <tzviya> ack bil
16:38:22 <rachel> ...I think we can say that archiving requirements are to come
16:38:24 <laudrain> We should involve people from National Libraries
16:38:25 <leonardr> link to paperless NARA article: https://fcw.com/articles/2017/08/24/nara-paperless-future-mazmanian.aspx
16:38:29 <George> q+
16:38:32 <rachel> ivan: if we can do more that's welcome
16:38:44 <dkaplan3> q+
16:38:50 <tzviya> ack ge
16:38:58 <rachel> Bill_Kasdorf: the NISO and ISO project is specifically regarding long term preservation which is one type of archiving
16:39:35 <rachel> George: I can ping Todd Carpenter from NISO and the deputy director of Library services if there's something we would like to ask of them
16:39:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:39:46 <laudrain> I’ll contact people form the French National Library who cares about this point
16:40:07 <wolfgang> s/form/from/
16:40:12 <tzviya> ack dk
16:40:36 <rachel> dkaplan3: we don't need to get into the weeds right now
16:41:18 <tzviya> ack bill
16:41:23 <rachel> ...there are "tiers" of archiving much like accessibility. There is a lot of research we can pull from to document
16:41:42 <rachel> Bill_Kasdorf: Frances K is excellent to work with
16:41:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/K/Cave
16:41:57 <dauwhe> s/Frances K/Francis Cave/
16:42:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/Frances/Francis
16:42:14 <garth> Tzviya says “quirky” when she might mean something else.  :-)
16:42:40 <rachel> Topic: Spring Face to Face
16:42:46 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/F2F/2018.05.Toronto
16:42:48 <leonardr> <clap><clap>
16:42:54 <rachel> tzviya: Kobo is hosting us in Toronto in May
16:43:07 <rachel> ...hopefully many of you cn come
16:43:12 <rachel> s/cn/can
16:43:25 <rachel> ... thanks Kobo!
16:43:31 <rachel> Topic: TPAC
16:43:34 <tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12J3Y3bb5fdPh1r2XH9YloINkNSxBJArocKY108sYCZ0/edit?usp=sharing
16:43:56 <Avneesh_> q+
16:44:00 <rachel> tzviya: we've pretty much finalized the agenda. This is your chance for last minute changes.
16:44:00 <ivan> q+
16:44:03 <tzviya> ack av
16:44:51 <rachel> Avneesh_: regarding the accessibility tf meeting has been scheduled with Silver and ???. We will talk about incorporating publishing in Silver or WCAG roadmap
16:45:00 <rdeltour> s/???/APA/
16:45:12 <rachel> ... if main group people are interested they are welcome to join
16:45:20 <rachel> ...it's monday at 3:30 or 4:30
16:45:33 <rachel> ivan: send the exact info and I will add to the google doc
16:45:54 <tzviya> q?
16:46:00 <tzviya> ack iv
16:46:12 <rachel> ivan: I've seen 2 pending questions/issues
16:46:32 <rachel> ...marcos cannot be at our web manifest meeting. Do we want to switch it to a better time for him?
16:47:13 <rachel> ...we do have a session for transitions, can we invite ???
16:47:32 <Hadrien> q+
16:47:37 <rachel> ...I've said yes but I do not know if it will fit timewise
16:47:49 <ivan> s/???/Samuel Petit/
16:47:50 <rachel> ...we can finalize this wednesday
16:47:57 <tzviya> ack ha
16:48:10 <rachel> Hadrien: this is a discussion we're having within EDR as well
16:48:26 <rachel> ...we could target something more pragmatic
16:49:03 <tzviya> q?
16:49:21 <cmaden21> cmaden21 has joined #pwg
16:49:25 <rachel> ivan: this wednesday tzviya garth and I will finalize possibly with some minor changes
16:49:56 <rachel> ...garth is on the hook for selecting a restaurant
16:50:10 <leonardr> +1 for dinner sounds good...
16:50:19 <laudrain> +1
16:50:22 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/publ-loc
16:50:26 <rachel> Topic: Open Pull Requests
16:50:42 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/pull/87
16:51:06 <rachel> tzviya: #87 is a point of clarification from mattg
16:51:12 <rachel> ivan: just merge
16:51:37 <pkra> thanks.
16:51:41 <clapierre> clapierre has left #pwg
16:51:51 <cmaden21> cmaden21 has left #pwg
16:51:54 <evan> evan has left #pwg
16:52:01 <wolfgang> Have a nice afternoon :)
16:52:07 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has left #pwg
16:52:27 <ivan> RESOLVED: Merge #87
16:52:27 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:52:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/23-pwg-minutes.html ivan
16:52:36 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:52:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/10/23-pwg-minutes.html ivan