<AWK_> +AWK

<AWK_> Chair: AWK

+ Laura

<AWK_> Scribe: Laura

AWK: Some people called into TPAC. It can be challenging.
... did people review the minutes?

Wayne: yes.
... We were not making user agent requests in any of our SCs.
... for example, Size.
... I thought we were really clear.
... Glad I didn’t attend. Disappointing.
... Don't be disheartened. We will need to educate.

AWK: …Don't be disheartened. We will need to educate.
... it is going to be challenging.

Wayne: I understand.

AC: Sent an email to the list.
... has reviwed SCs. Some SCs can be done now.
... some SCs appear to be achievable in browsers now.
... some SCs appear to require user-agent functionality.
... some may be a huge burden.

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Sep/0063.html

Shawn: agree with Andrew. don’t be disheartened yet -- I think it was a positive tone overall.

AWK: When we submit an sc we may need to be more basic. and just present the problem.
... need to move the needle forward.

wayne: we have to make clear that we want to remove obstructions.
... screen magnifiers can't solve the problem.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say very cautious about "not WCAAG 2.1, will do later"

Shawn: cautious when I hear something won't get in 2.1. that may be all there is in some cases for many years. agree not to "cover" user agents. however, "a mechanism is available" is appropriate in many cases

AWK: User Agents are not part of 2.1

AC: May need to rephrase some SCs so they are not about User Agents

Shawn: If using standard HTML you are covered by browser functionality. For other technology, if not in the user agents, then you need to provide a mechanism.

Wayne: SCs need to be stated in a positve way. Can be difficult.
... content developers need to make there content available.
... may need an alternative format.

AC: example?
... non-html environment.

AWK: a lot of discussion on personalization at TPAC.

<shawn> +1 to figuring out a way to minimize # of new SCs! and coordinating personalization between COGA & LVTF & others

AWK: Number of SC was a topic. Not worried about it.
... we will work it out.

Deadline for proposing NEW SCs Nov 4

<shawn> timeline https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Time_Line!!

Shawn: Jim was trying to set stakes in the ground.

AWK: Dec 1 have everything done.
... we have 7 thursdays left not counting Thanksgiving.
... we will stat running out of time.
... anything new should be started before Nov 1.

Wayne: are we ready for a freeze?

AWK: not me

Wayne: not comfortable. but we have covered essentials

AC: not yet. may want to condense.
... would like to ask questions at end of agenda.

Any Proposals for DEFERRING browser specific SCs from current SC list https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page

AWK: Jim suggested some may be browser specific SCs.

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Tracking_Success_Criteria_Progress

<shawn> Content picks up all relevant user settings, such as ...

Shawn: feels like content.

awk: how would you do this?

Shawn: I don’t know.

Wayne: Will check it out this week.

awk: how would an author conform or not conform?

wayne: are there any of ouside the scope?
... may not need this one.

AC: nothing for an author to do. Already done by the user agent or may be customisation

<shawn> Shawn: so maybe if all the important elements are covered by our other SC, then don't need this as a separate SC

AWK: no SC text for this one.

wayne: postioning can be a problem.

<shawn> Shawn: general comment: I think just because something is already done in HTML & browsers, doesn't mean we shouldn't include it -- esp. considering non-html content

awk: we have an sc for that.

<AWK_> Definitely agree with that comment Shawn.

<shawn> [choosing high contrast option in OS is a good example to think about]

<ScottM> Windows High Contrast removes all background images as does printing by default

wayne: background images are a problem. Breaks pages.

AC: I think windows 10 has fixed HCM and background images.

wayne: content needs to be flexible.

<shawn> thanks to Wayne for working more on this!

awk: let this one set for a bit.

AC: maybe a repsect user settings SCs.

AWK: Element Level Customization may be another one.

SC: why is is separtate?

wayne: Programing perspective at the parse level. They can be identified.

<shawn> +1 for looking at consolidating. issue is overall for blocks of text, vs. *element-level*

wayne: size can be a poor indicator for low vision.
... we authors should use proper semantics.

AC: strengthening 1.3.1

AWK: need to be more specific

<shawn> Shawn: again, good HTML already does this. We still need to say: content is provided in a way that users can do element-level customization

AWK: …for instance controls in Flash.
... AWK: enable this in a technology independent way.

<shawn> agree with AWK, that in some cases the accessibility support may not be available

AWK: in some cases the accessibility support may not be available

Shawn: content enables users to do this.

awk: this is not a UA SC

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say a big thing that we need to make clear is that some of these are already coverd in html

shawn: need to make clear it you are doing html you are covered.

AWK: SVG, PDF, epub needs to consideration.
... how you accomplish these things today.
... Let’s talk about the printing one.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Printing_Customized_Text

shawn: exactly like the last one.

AC: print style sheets come into play.

shawn: an issue of accessibility support.

AC: may not work with print style sheets.
... may be able to come up with techniques.

<ScottM> Not all browsers support print selection

AC: see need for an SC. Mostly coved in HTML.

<AWK_> Scott, unfortunately not, agree

wayne: overriding issue is structure of HTML
... there is a matching issue.

awk: Current SC Text “A mechanism is available to allow users to print page content that matches page presentation changes made by the user. “

<shawn> A mechanism is available to allow users to print page content with the page presentation changes made by the user.

AC: Allow users to print the page with the changes the user has made to the page
... mechanism is available to allow users to print page content with the page presentation changes made by the user.

Shawn: updated wiki.

AWK: do people know what they should be working on?
... we need to do 4 a week.

<AWK_> To review next week:

<AWK_> reflow to single column

<AWK_> element level customization

<AWK_> Printing customized text

<AWK_> and one more TBD

<AWK_> Laura will work on a contrast or interface elements ones.

AC: What is the thinking behind separate SCs for size of all content and text size SCs?

<alastairc> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Possible_wording_from_Jason/David_for_LVTF_re:_zoom_without_horizontal_scroll#Version_4

Wayne: because reading is a huge problem to people with low vision.

AC: is horizonal scrolling a issue.

Wayne: yes.

AC: worked on a wiki page that may cover for size of all content and text size.
... should be able to combine.

wayne: will take a look.

AC: does reflow need to act independently?

wayne: it is very easy for some users to lose content.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Reflow_to_Single_Column

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to comment on large images and to sat replow cognitive & screen mag

wayne: people with tunnel vision can have problems.

shawn: there are use cases for reflow.
... both text size and zoom can be useful.
... text size is more useful.

AC: easier with zoom for developers.
... media queries handles reflow. But everything zooms.
... ems can be used for media queries.
... but still need to reflow at some stage.

Scott: white space can be problematic with reflow with screen magnification.
... tables are an isssue.

wayne: we need to talk about style sheets .
... ways to write AT style sheets.

AWK: Not sure if I will be here next week. Could have a working session.

AC: we would have plenty to talk about.

Shawn: I will be around. And can start WebEx.

AWK: Thanks all.

<AWK_> trackbot, list participants

<trackbot> Sorry, AWK_, I don't understand 'trackbot, list participants'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

trackbot, end meeting

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/ah, thanks//
Succeeded: s/don’t be disheartened yet./agree with Andrew. don’t be disheartened yet -- I think it was a positive tone overall./
Succeeded: s/cautious when I hear something won't get in 2.1/cautious when I hear something won't get in 2.1. that may be all there is in some cases for many years. agree not to "cover" user agents. however, "a mechanism is available" is appropriate in many cases/
Succeeded: s/covered. If not need to provide a mechanism./covered by browser functionality. For other technology, if not in the user agents, then you need to provide a mechanism./
Succeeded: s/our the SC/our other SC/
Succeeded: s/…for/AWK: …for/
Succeeded: s/enable this in a technolgy independed way./AWK: enable this in a technology independent way./
Found Scribe: Laura
Inferring ScribeNick: laura
Default Present: AWK, Shawn, Alastair, ScottM, Wayne, Laura, alastairc
Present: (no one) Shawn Alastair ScottM Wayne Laura alastairc AWK
Regrets: JimA jallan
Found Date: 29 Sep 2016
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/09/29-lvtf-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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