14:59:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
14:59:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/29-lvtf-irc
14:59:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:59:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #lvtf
14:59:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:59:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:59:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:18 <trackbot> Date: 29 September 2016
14:59:25 <shawn> Chair: AWK
14:59:30 <shawn> Regrets: JimA
14:59:53 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
14:59:59 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
15:02:15 <alastairc> ah, thanks
15:02:24 <AWK_> AWK_ has joined #lvtf
15:03:40 <shawn> s/ah, thanks//
15:03:42 <AWK_> zakim, who is on the call?
15:03:42 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
15:03:45 <AWK_> +AWK
15:03:54 <AWK_> regrets+ jallan
15:03:57 <AWK_> Chair: AWK
15:04:07 <shawn> present+ Shawn, Alastair, ScottM, Wayne
15:04:10 <AWK_> Agenda+​ review TPAC minutes https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Sep/0060.html https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Sep/0062.html
15:04:19 <AWK_> Agenda+ Deadline for proposing NEW SCs Nov 4
15:04:28 <AWK_> Agenda+ Any Proposals for DEFERRING browser specific SCs from current SC list  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page
15:05:50 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
15:06:49 <shawn> present+ Laura
15:07:03 <alastairc> present+ alastairc
15:07:05 <laura> + Laura
15:07:11 <Wayne> present+ Wayne
15:07:38 <AWK_> Scribe: Laura
15:07:50 <AWK_> Zakim, take up item 1
15:07:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "​ review TPAC minutes https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Sep/0060.html
15:07:52 <Zakim> ... https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Sep/0062.html" taken up [from AWK_]
15:09:08 <laura> AWK: Some people called into TPAC. It can be challenging.
15:09:23 <laura> …did people review the minutes?
15:09:29 <laura> Wayne: yes.
15:10:08 <laura> …We were not making user agent requests in any of our SCs.
15:10:25 <laura> …for example, Size.
15:10:47 <laura> …I thought we were really clear.
15:11:15 <laura> …Glad I didn’t attend. Disappointing.
15:11:21 <shawn> q+
15:11:44 <laura> …Don't be disheartened. We will need to educate.
15:12:01 <laura> AWK: …Don't be disheartened. We will need to educate.
15:12:05 <alastairc> q+
15:12:16 <shawn> q- last
15:12:32 <laura> …it is going to be challenging.
15:12:55 <laura> Wayne: I understand.
15:13:03 <shawn> q- later
15:13:16 <AWK_> ack al
15:13:39 <laura> AC: Sent an email to the list.
15:14:28 <laura> …has reviwed SCs. Some SCs can be done now.
15:14:36 <Wayne> q+
15:14:44 <laura> …some SCs appear to be achievable in browsers now.
15:15:03 <laura> …some SCs appear to require user-agent functionality.
15:15:20 <laura> …some may be a huge burden.
15:15:38 <Wayne> q-
15:15:58 <laura> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Sep/0063.html
15:16:07 <AWK_> ack shawn
15:16:43 <laura> Shawn: don’t be disheartened yet.
15:17:38 <shawn> s/don’t be disheartened yet./agree with Andrew. don’t be disheartened yet -- I think it was a positive tone overall.
15:17:55 <Wayne> q+
15:18:42 <laura> AWK: When we submit an sc we may need to be more basic. and just present the problem.
15:18:53 <laura> …need to move the needle forward.
15:19:31 <AWK_> ack wa
15:19:39 <shawn> q+ to say very cautious about "not WCAAG 2.1, will do later"
15:20:24 <laura> wayne: we have to make clear that we want to remove obstructions.
15:21:00 <laura> …screen magnifiers can't solve the problem.
15:21:07 <AWK_> ack shawn
15:21:07 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say very cautious about "not WCAAG 2.1, will do later"
15:21:11 <alastairc> q+
15:21:53 <laura> Shawn: cautious when I hear something won't get in 2.1
15:21:54 <AWK_> ack ala
15:22:31 <laura> AWK: User Agents are not part of 2.1
15:23:02 <shawn> s/cautious when I hear something won't get in 2.1/cautious when I hear something won't get in 2.1. that may be all there is in some cases for many years. agree not to "cover" user agents. however, "a mechanism is available" is appropriate in many cases
15:23:15 <laura> AC: May need to rephrase some SCs so they are not about User Agents
15:23:18 <Wayne> q+
15:24:32 <laura> Shawn: If using standard HTML you are covered. If not need to provide a mechanism.
15:24:34 <AWK_> ack w
15:25:29 <laura> Wayne: SCs need to be stated in a positve way. Can be difficult.
15:26:10 <laura> …content developers need to make there content available.
15:26:30 <laura> …may need an alternative format.
15:26:40 <laura> AC: example?
15:27:31 <laura> …non-html environment.
15:28:12 <laura> AWK: a lot of discussion on personalization at TPAC.
15:28:15 <shawn> s/covered. If not need to provide a mechanism./covered by browser functionality. For other technology, if not in the user agents, then you need to provide a mechanism.
15:29:03 <shawn> +1 to figuring out a way to minimize # of new SCs! and coordinating personalization between COGA & LVTF & others
15:29:22 <laura> AWK: Number of SC was a topic. Not worried about it.
15:30:01 <laura> …we will work it out.
15:30:28 <AWK_> Zakim, close item 1
15:30:28 <Zakim> agendum 1, ​ review TPAC minutes https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Sep/0060.html
15:30:30 <Zakim> ... https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Sep/0062.html, closed
15:30:30 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:30:30 <Zakim> 2. Deadline for proposing NEW SCs Nov 4 [from AWK_]
15:30:42 <AWK_> Zakim, take up item 2
15:30:42 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Deadline for proposing NEW SCs Nov 4" taken up [from AWK_]
15:31:41 <shawn> timeline https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Time_Line!!
15:32:08 <laura> Shawn: Jim was trying to set stakes in the ground.
15:32:47 <laura> AWK: Dec 1 have everything done.
15:33:32 <laura> AWK: we have 7 thursdays left not counting Thanksgiving.
15:33:46 <laura> …we will stat running out of time.
15:34:12 <laura> …anything new should be started before Nov 1.
15:34:33 <laura> Wayne: are we ready for a freeze?
15:34:38 <alastairc> q+
15:34:43 <laura> AWK: not me
15:34:58 <AWK_> ack al
15:35:20 <laura> Wayne: not comfortable. but we have covered essentials
15:35:27 <AWK_> zakim, agenda?
15:35:27 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
15:35:28 <Zakim> 2. Deadline for proposing NEW SCs Nov 4 [from AWK_]
15:35:28 <Zakim> 3. Any Proposals for DEFERRING browser specific SCs from current SC list  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page [from AWK_]
15:35:41 <laura> AC: not yet. may want to condense.
15:35:51 <shawn> agenda+ Alastair questions :-)
15:35:52 <AWK_> Zakim, close item 2
15:35:52 <Zakim> agendum 2, Deadline for proposing NEW SCs Nov 4, closed
15:35:53 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:35:53 <Zakim> 3. Any Proposals for DEFERRING browser specific SCs from current SC list  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page [from AWK_]
15:35:57 <laura> …would like to ask questions at end of agenda.
15:35:58 <AWK_> Zakim, take up item 3
15:35:58 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Any Proposals for DEFERRING browser specific SCs from current SC list  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page" taken up [from AWK_]
15:38:08 <laura> AWK: Jim suggested some may be browser specific SCs.
15:38:20 <shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Tracking_Success_Criteria_Progress
15:40:32 <shawn> Content picks up all relevant user settings, such as ...
15:40:43 <laura> Shawn: feels like content.
15:40:56 <laura> awk: how would you do this?
15:41:22 <laura> Shawn: I don’t know.
15:41:38 <laura> Wayne: Will check it out this week.
15:42:08 <laura> awk: how would an author conform or not conform?
15:42:17 <alastairc> q+
15:42:52 <laura> wayne: are there any of ouside the scope?
15:43:18 <AWK_> ack a
15:43:22 <laura> …may not need this one.
15:44:39 <laura>  AC: nothing for an author to do. Already done by the user agent or may be customisation
15:45:05 <shawn> Shawn: so maybe if all the important elements are covered by our the SC, then don't need this as a separate SC
15:45:25 <shawn> s/our the SC/our other SC
15:45:25 <laura> AWK: no SC text for this one.
15:46:38 <laura> wayne: postioning can be a problem.
15:46:38 <shawn> Shawn: general comment: I think just because something is already done in HTML & browsers, doesn't mean we shouldn't include it -- esp. considering non-html content
15:46:55 <laura> awk: we have an sc for that.
15:47:22 <AWK_> Definitely agree with that comment Shawn.
15:47:34 <shawn> [choosing high contrast option in OS is a good example to think about]
15:47:36 <ScottM> Windows High Contrast removes all background images as does printing by default
15:47:49 <laura> wayne: background images are a problem. Breaks pages.
15:48:13 <shawn> q+
15:48:57 <laura> AC: I think windows 10 has fixed HCM and background images.
15:49:13 <AWK_> ack s
15:49:28 <laura> wayne: content needs to be flexible.
15:50:17 <shawn> thanks to Wayne for working more on this!
15:50:18 <laura> awk: let this one set for a bit.
15:50:47 <laura> AC: maybe a repsect user settings SCs.
15:52:05 <laura> AWK: Element Level Customization may be another one.
15:52:25 <laura> SC: why is is separtate?
15:53:04 <laura> wayne: Programing perspective at the parse level. They can be identified.
15:53:16 <shawn> +1 for looking at consolidating. issue is overall for blocks of text, vs. *element-level*
15:53:38 <laura> …size can be a poor indicator for low vision.
15:55:17 <laura> …we authors should use proper semantics.
15:56:42 <laura> AC: strengthening 1.3.1
15:57:15 <laura> AWK: need to be more specific
15:57:22 <shawn> Shawn: again, good HTML already does this. We still need to say: content is provided in a way that users can do element-level customization
15:58:05 <laura> …for instance controls in Flash.
15:58:26 <shawn> s/…for/AWK: …for
15:58:35 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/29-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
15:58:48 <laura> …enable this in a technolgy independed way.
15:59:58 <laura> s/enable this in a technolgy independed way./AWK: enable this in a technology independent way.
16:00:33 <shawn> agree with AWK, that in some cases the accessibility support may not be available
16:01:09 <laura> AWK: in some cases the accessibility support may not be available
16:02:09 <laura> Shawn: content enables users to do this.
16:02:30 <shawn> q+
16:03:01 <shawn> q+ to say a big thing that we need to make clear is that some of these are already coverd in html
16:03:02 <laura> awk: this is not a UA SC
16:03:03 <shawn> ack m
16:03:03 <AWK_> ack s
16:03:03 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say a big thing that we need to make clear is that some of these are already coverd in html
16:03:38 <laura> shawn: need to make clear it you are doing html you are covered.
16:04:40 <laura> AWK: SVG, PDF, epub needs to consideration.
16:05:15 <laura> …how you accomplish these things today.
16:05:42 <laura> AWK: Let’s talk about the printing one.
16:06:05 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Printing_Customized_Text
16:06:33 <laura> shawn: exactly like the last one.
16:06:58 <laura> AC: print style sheets come into play.
16:07:44 <laura> shawn: an issue of accessibility support.
16:08:21 <laura> AC: may not work with print style sheets.
16:08:44 <laura> …may be able to come up with techniques.
16:10:18 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
16:10:31 <ScottM> Not all browsers support print selection
16:10:32 <laura> …see need for an SC. Mostly coved in HTML.
16:10:53 <AWK_> Scott, unfortunately not, agree
16:11:08 <laura> wayne: overriding issue is structure of HTML
16:12:21 <laura> wayne: there is a matching issue.
16:13:12 <laura> awk: Current SC Text “A mechanism is available to allow users to print page content that matches page presentation changes made by the user. “
16:13:54 <shawn> A mechanism is available to allow users to print page content with the page presentation changes made by the user.
16:13:55 <laura> AC: Allow users to print the page with the changes the user has made to the page
16:14:11 <laura> AC:  mechanism is available to allow users to print page content with the page presentation changes made by the user.
16:14:31 <laura> Shawn: updated wiki.
16:14:46 <AWK_> zakim, agenda?
16:14:46 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
16:14:47 <Zakim> 3. Any Proposals for DEFERRING browser specific SCs from current SC list  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page [from AWK_]
16:14:47 <Zakim> 4. Alastair questions :-) [from shawn]
16:15:55 <laura> AWK: do people know what they should be working on?
16:16:30 <laura> …we need to do 4 a week.
16:16:35 <AWK_> To review next week:
16:16:43 <AWK_> reflow to single column
16:16:48 <AWK_> element level customization
16:17:31 <AWK_> Printing customized text
16:17:37 <AWK_> and one more TBD
16:18:00 <AWK_> Laura will work on a contrast or interface elements ones.
16:19:24 <laura> AC: What is the thinking behind separate SCs for size of all content and text size SCs?
16:19:57 <alastairc> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Possible_wording_from_Jason/David_for_LVTF_re:_zoom_without_horizontal_scroll#Version_4
16:20:22 <laura> Wayne: because reading is a huge problem to people with low vision.
16:21:07 <laura> AC: is horizonal scrolling a issue.
16:21:18 <laura> Wayne: yes.
16:22:11 <laura> AC: worked on a wiki page that may cover for size of all content and text size.
16:22:48 <shawn> q+
16:22:51 <laura> …should be able to combine.
16:23:01 <laura> wayne: will take a look.
16:23:47 <shawn> q+ to comment on large images
16:23:53 <laura> AC: does reflow need to act independently?
16:23:57 <shawn> q+ to sat replow cognitive & screen mag
16:24:41 <laura> wayne: it is very easy for some users to lose content.
16:25:20 <laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Reflow_to_Single_Column
16:25:41 <shawn> ack me
16:25:41 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to comment on large images and to sat replow cognitive & screen mag
16:26:07 <ScottM> q+
16:26:08 <laura> wayne: people with tunnel vision can have problems.
16:26:21 <AWK_> ack s
16:26:31 <laura> shawn: there are use cases for reflow.
16:27:25 <laura> shawn: both  text size and zoom can be useful.
16:27:57 <laura> …text size is more useful.
16:28:55 <laura> AC: easier with zoom for developers.
16:29:34 <laura> …media queries handles reflow. But everything zooms.
16:30:17 <laura> …ems can be used for media queries.
16:30:38 <Wayne> q+
16:30:56 <AWK_> ack sc
16:30:59 <laura> …but still need to reflow at some stage.
16:31:56 <laura> Scott: white space can be problematic with reflow with screen magnification.
16:32:09 <laura> …tables are an isssue.
16:32:57 <laura> wayne: we need to talk about style sheets .
16:33:32 <laura> …ways to write AT style sheets.
16:34:58 <laura> AWK: Not sure if I will be here next week. Could have a working session.
16:35:19 <laura> AC: we would have plenty to talk about.
16:35:44 <laura> Shawn: I will be around. And can start WebEx.
16:36:22 <laura> AWK: Thanks all.
16:36:51 <AWK_> rrsagent, list participants
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list participants', AWK_.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:37:00 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:37:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/29-lvtf-minutes.html laura
16:37:06 <AWK_> trackbot, list participants
16:37:06 <trackbot> Sorry, AWK_, I don't understand 'trackbot, list participants'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:37:53 <laura> present+ AWK
16:38:04 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:38:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/29-lvtf-minutes.html laura
16:38:46 <AWK_> zakim, list participants
16:38:46 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Shawn, Alastair, ScottM, Wayne, Laura, alastairc
16:39:21 <laura> trackbot, end meeting
16:39:21 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:39:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Shawn, Alastair, ScottM, Wayne, Laura, alastairc
16:39:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:39:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/29-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:39:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:39:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items