See also: IRC log
Addison: welcomes attendees and notes agenda needs to be created
Introductions by attendees
addison - requests update from Richard on HTML group
Richards: Handle conversation with Nick Doty offline. Suggest we participate in HTML5 group and have list of topics.
Richard: Touch base with Bobby tomorrow morning about work he is doing with Chinese language. Angel Li would like to participate in the discussion.
Richard - Cindy would also like to participate
Richard: Felix wants to talk
about ITS. Will give five minute summary
... Request of Dennis to talk about IDNs.
Dennis: Bounce ideas around
Richard: we should do update on URL spec
<fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/community/bpmlod/wiki/Best_practises
Felix: usage of URIs versus IRIs
Richard: interact with Privacy group to give them hints and tips
<fsasaki> felix: plus other aspects of multilingual linked data
Andy: Malicious activities related to multinational character sets
Addison: mentioned security group work on this topic. A concern within the W3C space as a whole
Richard: we should review what the group is working on.
Addison: things we are working on
(see Agenda document he was creating interactively)
... checklist, ChartMod, Reviews, XPath
Richard: Suggest looking at HTML groups list
<r12a> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda
note: Richard is r12a
<bobtung> dpub agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F
Richard: a number of people approached him about internationalization issues
Addison: 5.1 last call to be
looked at due to it having input from the group.
... looks like they are doing a big chunk of accessibility.
Also a 4 pm to 5 pm with CSS group. Is this of interest?
... should we interact with the HTML group today?
Richard: to ping Robin of the HTML group
<addison> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar
Addison: Summary for those new to
the group... Start with status
... group reviews other specs for internationalization stuff.
Reviewed schedule of reviews for the Internationalization group
(see wiki)
... mentioned a few specific drafts to review. Discussed need
for best-practices document. Mentioned need for tracking CSV
group
... Some of things we work on: best practices, documents about
internationalization, Richard does a lot of the writing.
Testing is another area the group does. Encoding incoming and
outgoing test need more coverage to exit CR and got forward
Leandro: offers to help with testing
Richard: suggest reviewing the
groups site
... reviews the elements on the wiki page - Group pages area -
points to pages related to specific groups
... reviewed typical page and elements on it.
... suggest doing Indic Layout task force review
... There is an existing document. Not sure of participation in
it. He has commented on it and requests others to do so.
<addison> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/indic-layout/
<addison> http://www.w3.org/International/groups/indic-layout/
Richard: Has had some conversation with the Indic
office
... will catch up with them after returning to UK.
... Requests comments sooner rather than later
Addison: Make it good enough for first public rev. Wonders if there is an active editor. It is an important document to him and want it to go forward quickly
<addison> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/
Richard: Japanese layer task
force originally driven by a members in Japan. Working
through their own list. English list also for wider feedback.
Now Public list that takes place of the English list. CJK list
inherited members from English list. Also have a Korean layout
reqs list.
... Hopes Chines work will get wider review. Beneift of CJK
list is it has needed membership
... Japanese task force formally discontinued but hanging
around.
... what is not there is the Chinese list. Next step is to take
charter from chinese task force to W3C review. Then Chinese review.
Then back to W3C for further review. To happen in near
future.
... to include Chinese, Mongolian, Tibeten,. Uyghur
<addison> Uyghur
Richard: Add links to groups we are talking about
<addison> ACTION:richard: add links to linked data, its, etc. related groups to home page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
Richard: Internationalization
checker to be talked about
... Brings up page for W3C Internationalization
Checker...
... Setting up an office. Request them to do Arabic
work.
... in Oman, near Saudi Arabia.
... demos the Internationalization Checker....
... what you get is page that give info about the page, the
http header, the language of the page, meta-data related to
internationalization.
... The checker tells you if you have done something wrong,
what the problem is, what to do about it, and pointer at info
on how to do it.
Demos with amazon.com
Richard: notes he wrote the
original checker, gave it to W3C. Plans to translate into almost100
languages. Microsoft provided` tool for looking at page and
determining language
... originally written in PHP, then rewritten in Java.
Andy: there is a Perl lib for language detection
Dennis: evaluating whether Verisign tools are applicable to W3C needs
Richard: need tools for assisting authors
Dennis: tools to look at links
Richard: like find punicode
... The checker is part of suite W3C offers. Orgs can pay to
use suite of three tools against their whole site.
... reviewed "Article" page and the "Handling characters in
CSS" tutorial....
... provide quick answers and also more details
... requests we provide suggestions for us to do work.
Addsion: welcomes actual text!
Richard: Articles focused on question and answer with tight focus. There are more general articles too.
<bobtung> https://medium.com/@bobtung/best-practice-in-chinese-layout-f933aff1728f
Richard: describes process for article authoring by the group, series of review and edits
Addison: Mentions that the group is public. It has a large subscriber list internationally. Hoping to recruit more people by being active and doing useful open activities
Richard: reviews various drafts and the state they are in
<addison> http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod-resid/
<addison> addison: counter styles extracted from CSS counter styles
<addison> ... supports many languages
<addison> ... just use the CSS from our note in your document
<addison> richard: (demos a counter style)
<addison> richard: demos the cjk-decimal style
<addison> ... abiliyt to use different names
<addison> richard: here's earthly-branch
<AndyF_> Richard: demos tool for editing and testing CSS
<AndyF_> Richard: notes that Firefox now supports natively
<AndyF_> Noted that only certain browsers work now and support the spec
<addison> richard: always looking for more styles/languages for predefined counter styles
<AndyF_> Richard: looking for more styles and feedback on existing styles
<addison> leandro: will work on generating lists from cldr data
<addison> ... for example latin script languages
<AndyF_> Leandro: about automating the creation.
<AndyF_> Leandro: need to check the data
<AndyF_> Richard: do people use sequence of counters for counting. In French do they use counters or just ASCII
<AndyF_> Addison: impact on organizing index and for lists. Impact on building a table of contents might inspire one use
<AndyF_> Richard: what to put in there to inspire usage
<AndyF_> Leandro: needing to spend more time analyzing. Was looking at Estonian. Waiting for response from publishers of Estonian style guide.
<AndyF_> Addison: action Leandro about this... Group may want to talk to the CLDR group about owning this
<AndyF_> Richard: Knows they are working on Hebrew and that this should be coordinated. Doesn't know exactly what they were working on.
<addison> ACTION: leandro: work on converting CLDR alphabetic index data to CSS predefined counter styles using automatic means, evaluating suitability of the data, and report back to WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-356 - Work on converting cldr alphabetic index data to css predefined counter styles using automatic means, evaluating suitability of the data, and report back to wg [on Leandro Reis - due 2014-11-06].
<addison> http://www.w3.org/standards/techs/i18n#w3c_all
<AndyF_> Richard: Metadata for Mulitlingual Web - Usage Scenarios = what is this
<AndyF_> Leandro: Felix: keep it open
<AndyF_> Richard: give Felix action to update on status of document
<addison> ACTION: felix: consider status of Metadata for Multilingual Web usage scenarios document and report back to WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-357 - Consider status of metadata for multilingual web usage scenarios document and report back to wg [on Felix Sasaki - due 2014-11-06].
<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/itsreq/
<AndyF_> Richard: turn Requierments for ITS 2.0 into a document
<AndyF_> Richard: it was obsoleted
<AndyF_> Felix: Doesn't have the status of the document
<AndyF_> Felix: sometimes documents fulfill a purpose but are not finished.
<AndyF_> Richard: should we retire it?
<AndyF_> Felix: suggest what to do and gets action item
<addison> ACTION: felix: retire Requirements for ITS 2.0 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-358 - Retire requirements for its 2.0 [on Felix Sasaki - due 2014-11-06].
<AndyF_> Richard: blast through remainder of list
<AndyF_> Richard: we have to do "Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML
<AndyF_> Richard: offers to take action item on this
<addison> action-113?
<trackbot> action-113 -- Aharon Lanin to Work on tidying up Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML & CSS over coming couple of months -- due 2012-04-11 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/113
<AndyF_> Richard: resolve issues related to Bidi working with HTML5.
<addison> action-113?
<trackbot> action-113 -- Richard Ishida to Work on tidying up Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML & CSS over coming couple of months -- due 2012-04-11 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/113
<AndyF_> Richard: background, problem, solution, what actually happened. This is what the documetn reflects - decisions to be made and what happened
<AndyF_> Richard: Language Tags and Locale Identifiers....
<AndyF_> Addison: document was from dark ages. Felix rejuvenated it. Original reason still exists. Talk about locale identifiers in HTML and ECMAScript
<AndyF_> Richard: Give Addison action to move doc to next stage
<addison> ACTION: addison: revive LTLI (Language Tags and Locale Identifiers) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-359 - Revive ltli (language tags and locale identifiers) [on Addison Phillips - due 2014-11-06].
<addison> park: work on Authoring Techniques for XHTML&HTML
<AndyF_> Richard: Authoring Techniques for XHTML & HTML>.. retire?
<AndyF_> Richard: During break talk to the HTML guys
<AndyF_> Richard: Fix up a time to meet with Privacy guys tomorrow.
<AndyF_> Addison: Say they are available at 3 pm (Seconded by Felix)
<addison> addison: actually, our agenda and previous discussion say 3 pm, should confirm
<addison> ScribeNick: addison
addison: talking to varoius folks
about agendas over next few days
... arranged with HTML to meet at 2:30 PM today
felix: next ML workshop date up
in the air
... maybe talk about potential for ITS 2.1 to support ruby? may
not have vendor support, but should gauge interest
... you'll recall that we removed the ruby materials from 2.0
because HTML5 not ready at that time
(introductions)
bobby: the issue from TW and CN
publishers
... use serif fonts like Ming or Song
... and whhen we quote, the alternative font is Kai
... it is difficult to access Kai in ebooks
... want Kai to be the 'cursive' style
... so font-family: cursive
... will find whatever system font like Kai is selected
richard: that's a family of
fonts, like Kai
... so for quotes, you want a Kai font
... there may be 3-4 fonts like that
bobby: Kai, Shin, Tao...
semi-cursive, more cursive, and cursive
... not necessarily in general operating system
richard: and fangsong is something different
bobby: fangsong means "imitation
song", more writing details
... often used for quotations
... Kai a more general use
... imitation song used in Japanese
... like as italic: sochotai used instead of oblique
... can assign font-style:italic
... but imitation-song not installed for all systems
... example can be like design feature
<bobtung> https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/1600/1*54sLzm-OMOJ6OCt1GWkPEw.png
bobby: here are some
examples
... of what the different fonts look like
... most systems have a Kai font
... like since Win95
xiaoqian: why do css folks think Kai not cursive
richard: that's not built into the system, bobby make the column heads in example
bobby: on osX and ios, Kai is a
default font
... browsers do nothing with 'cursive'
... OSX will choose kai as cursive
<r12a> http://rishida.net/scripts/fontlist/#chinese-s
richard: i have a list
... a page where I go through fonts found on different
platforms by default
... and looked for (for example) S.chinese
... and for Kai fonts, KaiTi
... how does that relate to your table?
<murakami> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_script_styles
murakami: maybe a problem if font
maps to more real cursive font
... display result will be more cursive than desired
richard: how many functional
(semantic) types do we need?
... the five in CSS (serif, sans, cursive, fantasy, monospace)
are enough
... because just the fallback
... is that true? or do we need a finer set of fallbacks
... what happens for other scripts, like arabic, that also have
distincitve features
... and what if browser does not have a mapping/support for new
items
... does it map to original five?
... but first item is "do we need fine distinction"?
addison: maybe modify digital
publication?
... to provide additional styles there for publishers needs but
not fix CSS base
xiaoqian: give them another method to match the fonts
richard: be sure there really is a rquirement
an qi: generic font family may satify requirements
addison: 1. is there a best
practice that we should recommend 'cursive' be a Kai-like
font?
... 2. does that sastify the needs of Chinese for web browsers,
etc?
... 3. separately, do publications (like dpub) need additional
styles to satisfy needs of chinese publishers?
richard: these are *questions* that need to go to community, not guidelines/recommenations yet, I think
bobby: okay, other topic.
... cursive label isn't necessary, could make a webfont for
that
... users system doesn't support, should fall back to kai
... OSX will select Kai as cursive font
... will use oblique for italic or emphasis style
... can override
... reported to apple
richard: question is whether
<em> should be overridden
... should be cursive by default?
... would you expect Kai there?
bobby: do nothing
addison: but has to be
visibloe
... if not visible in some way, then breaks page
xiaoqian: could have emphasis dots?
murakami: don't think css should
be changed for style
... <em> element obliqueing natural for JP websites and
such
... and expect oblique
... if change <em> element, then problems
... in japanese, obliquing not good for quality
publishing
... but not problem of HTML or CSS spec
... publisher should specify appropriate style!
addison: emphasis dots look odd in mixed contexts and don't want mixed dots and italics?
(viewing examples of emphasis dot mixing)
bobby: if possible, shouldn't digitally oblique
murakami: making profile for
chinese or japanese would make sense
... maybe not change html or css standard to do that
... make appropriate recommended stylesheet for chinese would
be sufficient
richard: inclined to agree with
murakami-san
... two places could alter
... browser default or in personal stylesheet
... maybe breaks pages if default page changes?
murakami: each UA can define its
own default stylesheet
... for browser or epub reader
... and could apply the right stylesheet
... and maybe different than generic browser
... maybe a change could cause problem for existing page if
removing oblique
(Felix stepping out)
murakami: some css modules define
default stylesheet, like Css text-decoration
... like text underline position
... for japanese, the underline position is on right side
richard: should watch
specifications to make sure default stylesheets take into
account
... is only informative
bobby: user agents are encouraged
to allow users to select custom fonts
... so exposed to user
... (demonstrates that FF doesn't expose cursive)
richard: raise issue with FF to expose it
addison: but help them by suggesting right thing. few users come here
richard: make blog post into an
article
... ?
... put this information into the article
... such as provide info for how to do this
bobby: (showing css fonts)
... put Kai under cursive as example
richard: may face
objections
... from css people
xiaoqian: wikipage shows kai not under cursive?
richard: but that classification
is different from CSS
... john daggett removed from serif
bobby: would like chinese
examples under various other items
... most opentype features are required by japanese but not by
chinese
chunming: find mapping because
hard to change CSS Font spec
... could be an informative document
... to make mapping real
... bobby mentioned emphasis
... chinese or chinese/latin
... it's different
richard: browsers are obliquing
cursive by default
... should stop that
xiaoqian: tell browser vendors?
richard: got Kai removed from
serif
... probably all we can do there now
... can contact browser vendors
... and provide Kai font for cursive by default
... and provide control to allow users to set curssive
... and not oblique fonts by default
... and then provide documentation to users
... about hwo to write style sheet to get Kai
xiaoqian: more related to mobile browser
chunming: prelimiary
discussion
... another scenario
... read discussion from before
... for Song different providers with different names
... seems how do we give hints to publishers
... how to find similar font if the required name not
present
... before TPAC had offline discussion
... could make list of all possible Sung fonts
... to define a "song" family
... is kind of a profile or best practices for content
providers
richard: could be useful
... maybe some issues?
... need to understand what a browser goes through
... to select for a given generic font family
... maybe browser specific how font selection works
chunming: if they could find some
information on how user defined font styles
... if they fail they'll refer to a generic
... and on operating system's font management
... to get native fonts
... to define defaults for each generic font family
... second part is OS specific/implementation specifici
... first part relies on CSS definition
richard: problem with making a
list is maintenance
... had to keep up
... only giving a specific guidance on one specific font
... and then separately give user control (show how to fix in
their browser)
... in summary we had a discussion if there were additional
categories that users want
... advice so far is no
... no requirement currently
addison: consideration for dpub rather than stock CSS?
xiaoqian: talk to DP tomorrow?
<scribe> ACTION: xiaoqian: survey publishers if there are requirements for additional/more specific styles in Chinese e-books [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-360 - Survey publishers if there are requirements for additional/more specific styles in chinese e-books [on Xiaoqian Wu - due 2014-11-06].
richard: PING at 8:46
... tomorrow
https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Locale-based_forms
https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/HTML5TimeZone
http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/5
<scribe> chair: we're not in the room currently
"three wishes for I18N"
addison: we asked for time zone, locale handling, and a mulligan for inspecting our backlog
HTML taking notes on HTML.next in https://etherpad.mozilla.org/ep/pad/view/ro.XTkA24aN30J/latest
in DWBP
channel is #dwbp
<scribe> ACTION: felix: check status of IDNs in ML data best practices [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-361 - Check status of idns in ml data best practices [on Felix Sasaki - due 2014-11-06].
<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/
felix: that's the spec
... we finished last year in the ITS WG
... metadata for translation/localization workflows
<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#trans-datacat
felix: one item is in HTML
natively
... in ITS you not just attributes
... but an XPath mechanism to select several items
... which is useful for templating
... for localization workflows
... the translate attribute is clearly useful
... what to translate and what to leave alone
<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#datacategory-description
felix: specify things like
language, direction, segmentation, usw.
... applicable to HTML and XML
... not just XML
... more metadata items
... many are relevant for machine processing
<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#mtconfidence
felix: such as "mt
confidence"
... this is ITS 2.0 in a nutshell
... translators implement
... understood by l10n tools
... extracting from webcontent, etc.
... a workflow technology
... when we created this, included all of ITS 1.0
... and that had ruby and directionality
... but those were not stable in HTML5 until recently
... and we couldn't wait
... so we have some potential gaps
... should we have a 2.1 to reflect changes in HTML in
particular
... technical documenntation, DITA, and others
... would benefit from HTML compatible XML grammars
... need to charter to do work
<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#textanalysis
felix: starting to be used for things like generating SEO
dennis: IDNs handled by the
web
... user adoption is a problem
... and apps are not IDA aware
... browsers for example
... initially you'd see punycode instead of Ulabel
... email clients
... gmail has one approach
... MSFT and others hopefully will join in
... update IDNA page in group
... why don't developer want to handle
... one issue is security
... such as spoofing
... reading about best practices
... is like "keep away from IDNs"
<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/IRIStatus
<fsasaki> https://url.spec.whatwg.org/
addison: (natters away for a bit)
<r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/articles/idn-and-iri/
richard: updating the document we have. is it the above?
dennis: yep
... how?
richard: I'm original
author
... have some ideas of what I want to achieve?
... chat about ideas for changes?
addison: different things could
do here
... depends on what to do
richard: both introduce for lay
person
... and also second goal
... bring IDNs and path names togehter in one document
... I spoke to Sam Ruby about the URl spec
... and he was talking about punycode mail addresses
... rather, domain names
... how represented in browser
... sometimes punycode and sometimes ULABEL
... things like whitelists
... and Sam has some tests
... and he pointed out that his tests were inconsistent
... and I pointed out that this was right in some cases
... might need to write down the expecations (and technical
details) about what to expect
... you are also interested in the /path aspect?
dennis: whole path
