15:50:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
15:50:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-irc
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15:56:10 <addison> rrsagent, set logs world
15:56:29 <addison> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:56:48 <addison> rrsagent, set logs world
15:57:12 <addison> Meeting: 2014 TPAC Internationalization WG
15:57:21 <addison> rrsagent, make minutes
15:57:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:57:22 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #i18n
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16:00:18 <addison> scribenick:addison
16:01:05 <addison> addison: I said something :-)
16:01:28 <AndyF> AndyF has joined #i18n
16:01:33 <DennisTan> DennisTan has joined #i18n
16:01:36 <addison> scribenick: AndyF
16:02:34 <AndyF> Addison: welcomes attendees and notes agenda needs to be created
16:02:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:03:32 <AndyF> Introductions by attendees
16:03:38 <addison> Present: Leandro, Felix, Addison, Richard, Bobby, AndyF (observer), Dennis
16:03:50 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
16:03:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:06:36 <AndyF> addison - requests update from Richard on HTML group
16:07:29 <AndyF> Richards: Handle conversation with Rick Dotie offline. Suggest we participate in HTML5 group and have list of topics.
16:08:18 <Leandro> Leandro has joined #i18n
16:08:19 <AndyF> Richard:Touch base with Bobby tomorrow morning about work he is doing with Chinese language. Angel Lee would like to participate in the discussion.
16:08:37 <AndyF> Robert - Cindy ? would also like to participate
16:09:15 <AndyF> s/Robert/Richard/
16:09:52 <AndyF> Richard: Felix wants  to talk about ITS. Will give five minute summary
16:10:10 <AndyF> Richard: Request of Dennis to talk about IDNs.
16:10:19 <AndyF> Dennis: Bounce ideas around
16:10:36 <AndyF> Richard: we should do update on URL spec
16:11:02 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/community/bpmlod/wiki/Best_practises
16:11:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:12:28 <AndyF> Felix: usage of URIs versus URNs
16:12:41 <fsasaki> s/URNs/IRIs/
16:12:48 <AndyF> Richard: interact with Privacy group to give them hints and tips
16:12:57 <fsasaki> felix: plus other aspects of multilingual linked data
16:14:29 <AndyF> Andy: Malicious activities related to multinational character sets
16:15:07 <AndyF> Addison: mentioned security group work on this topic. A concern within the W3C space as a whole
16:15:22 <AndyF> Richard: we should review what the group is working on.
16:16:07 <AndyF> Addison: things we are working on (see Agenda document he was creating interactively)
16:16:59 <AndyF> Addison: checklist, ChartMod, Reviews, XPath
16:17:48 <AndyF> Richard: Suggest looking at HTML groups list
16:17:52 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda
16:18:35 <AndyF> note: Richard is r12a
16:19:26 <bobtung> dpub agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC2014-F2F
16:19:51 <AndyF> Richard: a number of people approached him about internationalization issues
16:20:35 <AndyF> Addison: 5.1 last call to be looked at due to it having input from the group.
16:21:32 <AndyF> Addison: looks like they are doing a big chunk of accessibility. Also a 4 pm to 5 pm with CSS group. Is this of interest?
16:22:35 <AndyF> Addison: should we interact with the HTML group today?
16:23:04 <AndyF> Richard: to ping Robin of the HTML group
16:25:21 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar
16:26:11 <AndyF> Addison: Summary for those new to the group... Start with status
16:26:58 <AndyF> Addison: group reviews other specs for internationalization stuff. Reviewed schedule of reviews for the Internationalization group (see wiki)
16:28:17 <AndyF> Addison: mentioned a few specific drafts to review. Discussed need for best-practices document. Mentioned need for tracking CSV group
16:29:53 <AndyF> Addison: Some of things we work on: best practices, documents about internationalization, Richard does a lot of the writing. Testing is another area the group does. Encoding incoming and outgoing test need more coverage to exit CR and got forward
16:30:46 <AndyF> Leandro: offers to help with testing
16:31:16 <AndyF> Richard: suggest reviewing the groups site
16:32:32 <AndyF> Richard: reviews the elements on the wiki page - Group pages area - points to pages related to specific groups
16:32:54 <AndyF> Richard: reviewed typical page and elements on it.
16:34:21 <AndyF> Richard: suggest doing Indie Layout task force review
16:34:28 <addison> s/Indie/Indic/
16:35:33 <AndyF> Richard: There is an existing document. Not sure of participation in it. He has commented on it and requests others to do so.
16:35:48 <addison> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/indic-layout/
16:36:03 <addison> http://www.w3.org/International/groups/indic-layout/
16:36:41 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/indic-layout/
16:37:19 <addison> Present+ Kenny
16:37:26 <AndyF> Richard: comments on re-org and other comments. Has had some conversation with the Indic office
16:37:43 <AndyF> Richard: will catch up with them next week.
16:38:06 <AndyF> Richard: Requests comments sooner rather than later
16:38:47 <Kenny> Kenny has joined #i18n
16:39:42 <AndyF> Addison: Make it good enough for first public rev. Wonders if there is an active editor. It is an important document to him and want it to go forward quickly
16:40:35 <AndyF> Richard: don't go to link for Japanese task force. Wonders if it is closed. Mentions some interaction with them
16:41:32 <addison> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/
16:41:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:42:21 <AndyF> Richard: Japanese layer task force originally driven by a few members in Japan. Working through their own list. English list also for wider feedback. Now Public list that takes place of the English list. CJK list inherited members from English list. Also have a Korean layer reqs list.
16:43:00 <AndyF> Richard: Hopes Chines work will get wider review. Beneift of CJK list is it has needed membership
16:43:25 <AndyF> Richard: Japanese task force formally discontinued but hanging around.
16:44:37 <AndyF> Richard: what is not there is the Chinese list. Next step is to take doc from chinese task force to W3C review. Then Chinese review. Then back to W3C for further review. To happen in near future.
16:45:04 <AndyF> Richard: to include Chinese, Mongolian, Tibeten,. Ingor
16:45:25 <addison> Uyghur
16:46:02 <addison> s/Ingor/Uyghur/
16:46:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:47:17 <AndyF> Richard: Add links to groups we are talking about
16:47:31 <addison> action:richard: add links to linked data, its, etc. related groups to home page
16:47:43 <AndyF> Richard: Internationalization checker to be talked about
16:48:30 <AndyF> Richard: Brings up page for W3C Internationalization Checker...
16:50:08 <AndyF> Richard: Setting up an office (where?). Request them to do Arabic work.
16:50:36 <AndyF> Richard: in Oman, near Saudi Arabia.
16:51:54 <AndyF> Richard: demos the Internationalization Checker....
16:53:29 <AndyF> Richard: what you get is page that give info about the page, the http header, the language of the page, meta-data related to internationalization.
16:54:18 <AndyF> Richard: The checker tells you if you have done something wrong, what the problem is, what to do about it, and pointer at info on how to do it.
16:54:41 <AndyF> Demos with amazon.com
16:58:27 <AndyF> Richard: notes he wrote the original checker, gave it to W3C. Plans to do in in 100 languages. Microsoft to provide tool for looking at page and determining language
16:59:04 <AndyF> Richard: originally written in PHP, then rewritten in Java.
16:59:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
17:00:24 <AndyF> Andy: there is a Perl lib for language detection
17:01:13 <AndyF> Dennis: evaluating whether Verisign tools are applicable to W3C needs
17:01:28 <AndyF> Richard: need tools for assisting authors
17:01:45 <AndyF> Dennis: tools to look at links
17:01:59 <AndyF> Richard: like find punicode
17:02:54 <AndyF> Richard: The checker is part of suite W3C offers. Orgs can pay to use suite of three tools against their whole site.
17:03:38 <AndyF> Richard: reviewed "Article" page and the "Handling characters in CSS" tutorial....
17:04:23 <AndyF> Richard: provide quick answers and also more details
17:04:48 <AndyF> Richard: requests we provide suggestions for us to do work.
17:05:01 <AndyF> Addsion: welcomes actual text!
17:06:05 <AndyF> Richard: Articles focused on question and answer with tight focus. There are more general articles too.
17:06:39 <bobtung> https://medium.com/@bobtung/best-practice-in-chinese-layout-f933aff1728f
17:06:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
17:08:09 <AndyF> Richard: describes process for article authoring by the group, series of review and edits
17:08:59 <AndyF> Addison: Mentions that the group is public. It has a large subscriber list internationally. Hoping to recruit more people by being active and doing useful open activities
17:10:24 <AndyF> Richard: reviews various drafts and the state they are in
17:11:17 <addison> http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod-resid/
17:13:18 <addison> addison: counter styles extracted from CSS counter styles
17:13:28 <addison> ... supports many languages
17:13:36 <addison> ... just use the CSS from our note in your document
17:13:50 <addison> richard: (demos a counter stylle)
17:13:56 <addison> s/stylle/style/
17:14:45 <addison> richard: demos the cjk-decimal style
17:14:47 <AndyF_> AndyF_ has joined #i18n
17:14:50 <addison> ... abiliyt to use different names
17:15:35 <addison> richard: here's earthly-branch
17:15:51 <AndyF_> Richard: demos tool for editing and testing CSS
17:16:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
17:16:35 <AndyF_> Richard: notes that Firefox supported natively
17:17:18 <AndyF_> Noted that only certain browsers work now and support the spec
17:17:43 <addison> richard: always looking for more styles/languages for predefined counter styles
17:17:46 <AndyF_> Richard: looking for more styles and feedback on existing styles
17:17:59 <addison> leandro: will work on generating lists from cldr data
17:18:29 <addison> ... for example latin script languages
17:19:10 <AndyF_> Leandro: about automating the creation.
17:20:07 <AndyF_> Leandro: need to check the data
17:20:38 <AndyF_> Richard: do people use sequence of counters for counting. In French do they use counters or just ASCII
17:21:29 <AndyF_> Addison: impact on organizing index and for lists. Impact on building a table of contents might inspire one use
17:21:52 <AndyF_> Richard: what to put in there to inspire usage
17:22:47 <AndyF_> Leandro: needing to spend more time analyzing. Was looking at Estonian. Waiting for response from publishers of Estonian style guide.
17:23:38 <AndyF_> Addison: action Leandro about this... Group may want to talk to the CLDR group about owning this
17:24:22 <AndyF_> Richard: Knows they are working on Hebrew and that this should be coordinated. Doesn't know exactly what they were working on.
17:24:33 <addison> action: leandro: work on converting CLDR alphabetic index data to CSS predefined counter styles using automatic means, evaluating suitability of the data, and report back to WG
17:24:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-356 - Work on converting cldr alphabetic index data to css predefined counter styles using automatic means, evaluating suitability of the data, and report back to wg [on Leandro Reis - due 2014-11-06].
17:25:31 <addison> http://www.w3.org/standards/techs/i18n#w33c_all
17:25:33 <AndyF_> Richard: Metadata for Mulitlingual Web - Usage Scenarios = what is this
17:25:59 <addison> s/w33c/w3c/
17:26:03 <AndyF_> Leandro: Felix: keep it open
17:26:27 <AndyF_> Richard: give Felix action to update on status of document
17:26:31 <addison> action: felix: consider status of Metadata for Multilingual Web usage scenarios document and report back to WG
17:26:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-357 - Consider status of metadata for multilingual web usage scenarios document and report back to wg [on Felix Sasaki - due 2014-11-06].
17:26:54 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/itsreq/
17:27:15 <AndyF_> Richard: turn ITS 2.0 into a document
17:27:34 <AndyF_> Richard: it was obsoleted
17:28:00 <AndyF_> Felix: Doesn't have the status of the document
17:28:32 <AndyF_> Felix: sometimes documents fulfill a purpose but are not finished.
17:28:48 <AndyF_> Richard: should we retire it?
17:29:06 <AndyF_> Felix: suggest what to do and gets action item
17:29:07 <addison> action: felix: retire Requirements for ITS 2.0
17:29:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-358 - Retire requirements for its 2.0 [on Felix Sasaki - due 2014-11-06].
17:29:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
17:29:54 <AndyF_> Richard: blast through remainder of list
17:30:25 <AndyF_> Richard: we have to do "Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML
17:30:36 <AndyF_> Richard: offers to take action item on this
17:30:42 <addison> action-113?
17:30:42 <trackbot> action-113 -- Aharon Lanin to Work on tidying up Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML & CSS over coming couple of months -- due 2012-04-11 -- OPEN
17:30:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/113
17:31:08 <AndyF_> Richard: resolve issues related to Bidi working with HTML5.
17:31:44 <addison> action-113?
17:31:44 <trackbot> action-113 -- Richard Ishida to Work on tidying up Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML & CSS over coming couple of months -- due 2012-04-11 -- OPEN
17:31:44 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/113
17:31:55 <addison> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:31:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
17:31:59 <AndyF_> Richard: background, problem, solution, what actually happened. This is what the documetn reflects - decisions to be made and what happened
17:32:23 <AndyF_> Richard: Language Tags and Locale Identifiers....
17:33:13 <AndyF_> Addison: document was from dark ages. Felix rejuvenated it. Original reason still exists. Talk about locale identifiers in HTML and ECMAScript
17:33:44 <AndyF_> Richard: Give Addison action to move doc to next stage
17:34:16 <addison> action: addison: revive LTLI (Language Tags and Locale Identifiers)
17:34:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-359 - Revive ltli (language tags and locale identifiers) [on Addison Phillips - due 2014-11-06].
17:35:05 <addison> park: work on Authoring Techniques for XHTML&HTML
17:35:06 <AndyF_> Richard: Authoring Techniques for XHTML & HTML>..    retire?
17:36:12 <AndyF_> Richard: During break talk to the HTML guys
17:36:34 <AndyF_> Richard: Fix up a time to meet with Privacy guys tomorrow.
17:36:50 <AndyF_> Addison: Say they are available at 3 pm (Seconded by Felix)
17:37:42 <addison> addison: actually, our agenda and previous discussion say 3 pm, should confirm
18:00:58 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #i18n
18:06:58 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18n
18:07:03 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #i18n
18:08:36 <addison> ScribeNick: addison
18:08:42 <addison> rrsagent, make minutes
18:08:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:14:13 <addison> Topic: Coffee Break
18:14:28 <addison> addison: talking to varoius folks about agendas over next few days
18:14:38 <addison> ... arranged with HTML to meet at 2:30 PM today
18:14:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:16:18 <addison> felix: next ML workshop date up in the air
18:16:47 <addison> felix: maybe talk about potential for ITS 2.1 to support ruby? may not have vendor support, but should gauge interest
18:17:09 <addison> ... you'll recall that we removed the ruby materials from 2.0 because HTML5 not ready at that time
18:17:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:19:51 <addison> Present+ Xiaoqian
18:20:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:21:08 <addison> Present+ Takuda-san
18:21:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:22:50 <murakami> murakami has joined #i18n
18:23:59 <addison> Topic: Font issues in CJK
18:25:05 <addison> Present+ An Qi
18:25:25 <addison> (introductions)
18:25:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:25:47 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #i18n
18:28:34 <addison> bobby: the issue from TW and CN publishers
18:28:47 <addison> ... use serif fonts like Ming or Song
18:28:58 <addison> ... and whhen we quote, the alternative font is Kai
18:29:23 <addison> ... it is difficult to access Kai in ebooks
18:29:33 <addison> ... want Kai to be the 'cursive' style
18:29:39 <addison> ... so font-family: cursive
18:29:51 <addison> ... will find whatever system font like Kai is selected
18:29:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:30:07 <addison> richard: that's a family of fonts, like Kai
18:30:25 <addison> ... so for quotes, you want a Kai font
18:30:32 <addison> ... there may be 3-4 fonts like that
18:30:50 <addison> bobby: Kai, Shin, Tao... semi-cursive, more cursive, and cursive
18:31:07 <addison> ... not necessarily in general operating system
18:31:14 <addison> richard: and fangsong is something different
18:31:34 <addison> bobby: fangsong means "imitation song", more writing details
18:31:46 <addison> ... often used for quotations
18:31:54 <addison> ... Kai a more general use
18:32:04 <addison> ... imitation song used in Japanese
18:32:23 <addison> ... like as italic: sochotai used instead of oblique
18:32:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:32:49 <addison> bobby: can assign font-style:italic
18:32:58 <addison> ... but imitation-song not installed for all systems
18:33:14 <addison> ... example can be like design feature
18:33:41 <bobtung> https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/1600/1*54sLzm-OMOJ6OCt1GWkPEw.png
18:33:41 <addison> ... here are some examples
18:33:51 <addison> ... of what the different fonts look like
18:34:07 <addison> ... most systems have a Kai font
18:34:13 <addison> ... like since Win95
18:34:46 <addison> xiaoqian: why do css folks think Kai not cursive
18:35:12 <addison> richard: that's not built into the system, bobby make the column heads in example
18:35:36 <addison> bobby: on osX and ios, Kai is a default font
18:35:47 <addison> ... browsers do nothing with 'cursive'
18:36:08 <addison> ... OSX will choose kai as italic
18:36:16 <addison> s/as italic/as cursive/
18:36:29 <r12a> http://rishida.net/scripts/fontlist/#chinese-s
18:36:29 <addison> richard: i have a list
18:36:41 <addison> ... a page where I go through fonts found on different platforms by default
18:36:51 <addison> ... and looked for (for example) S.chinese
18:37:00 <addison> ... and for Kai fonts, KaiTi
18:37:17 <addison> ... how does that relate to your table?
18:40:15 <murakami> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_script_styles
18:45:10 <addison> murakami: maybe a problem if font maps to more real cursive font
18:45:26 <addison> ... display result will be more cursive than desired
18:48:41 <addison> richard: how many functional (semantic) types do we need?
18:48:57 <addison> ... the five in CSS (serif, sans, cursive, fantasy, monospace) are enough
18:49:01 <addison> ... because just the fallback
18:49:11 <addison> ... is that true? or do we need a finer set of fallbacks
18:49:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
18:49:36 <addison> richard: what happens for other scripts, like arabic, that also have distincitve features
18:49:51 <addison> ... and what if browser does not have a mapping/support for new items
18:49:56 <addison> ... does it map to original five?
18:50:08 <addison> ... but first item is "do we need fine distinction"?
18:51:49 <addison> addison: maybe modify digital publication?
18:53:27 <addison> ... to provide additional styles there for publishers needs but not fix CSS base
18:53:45 <addison> xiaoqian: give them another method to match the fonts
18:53:53 <addison> richard: be sure there really is a rquirement
18:54:25 <addison> an qi: generic font family may satify requirements
19:00:46 <addison> addison: 1. is there a best practice that we should recommend 'cursive' be a Kai-like font?
19:01:16 <addison> ... 2. does that sastify the needs of Chinese for web browsers, etc?
19:01:36 <addison> ... 3. separately, do publications (like dpub) need additional styles to satisfy needs of chinese publishers?
19:01:55 <addison> richard: these are *questions* that need to go to community, not guidelines/recommenations yet, I think
19:02:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
19:02:22 <addison> bobby: okay, other topic.
19:02:43 <addison> ... cursive label isn't necessary, could make a webfont for that
19:03:00 <addison> ... users system doesn't support, should fall back to kai
19:03:25 <addison> bobby: OSX will select Kai as cursive font
19:03:55 <addison> ... will use oblique for italic or emphasis style
19:04:02 <addison> ... can override
19:04:21 <addison> ... reported to apple
19:04:39 <addison> richard: question is whether <em> should be overridden
19:04:45 <addison> ... should be cursive by default?
19:04:50 <addison> ... would you expect Kai there?
19:04:55 <addison> bobby: do nothing
19:05:50 <addison> addison: but has to be visibloe
19:06:09 <addison> ... if not visible in some way, then breaks page
19:07:16 <addison> xiaoqian: could have emphasis dots?
19:07:41 <addison> murakami: don't think css should be changed for style
19:08:10 <addison> ... <em> element obliqueing natural for JP websites and such
19:08:16 <addison> ... and expect oblique
19:08:35 <addison> ... if change <em> element, then problemss
19:08:42 <addison> s/problemss/problems/
19:09:03 <addison> ... in japanese, obliquing not good for quality publishing
19:09:10 <addison> ... but not problem of HTML or CSS spec
19:09:25 <addison> ... publisher should specify appropriate style!
19:10:52 <addison> addison: emphasis dots look odd in mixed contexts and don't want mixed dots and italics?
19:10:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
19:12:33 <addison> (viewing examples of emphasis dot mixing)
19:13:57 <addison> bobby: if possible, shouldn't digitally oblique
19:17:38 <addison> murakami: making profile for chinese or japanese would make sense
19:17:47 <addison> ... maybe not change html or css standard to do that
19:18:02 <addison> ... make appropriate recommended stylesheet for chinese would be sufficient
19:18:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
19:19:03 <addison> richard: inclined to agree with murakami-san
19:19:16 <addison> ... two places could alter
19:19:25 <addison> ... browser default or in personal stylesheet
19:21:21 <addison> ... maybe breaks pages if default page changes?
19:21:37 <addison> murakami: each UA can define its own default stylesheet
19:21:58 <addison> ... for browser or epub reader
19:22:06 <addison> ... and could apply the right stylesheet
19:22:13 <bobtung_> bobtung_ has joined #i18n
19:22:14 <addison> ... and maybe different than generic browser
19:22:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
19:23:00 <addison> murakami: maybe a change could cause problem for existing page if removing oblique
19:23:10 <addison> (Felix stepping out)
19:23:55 <addison> murakami: some css modules define default stylesheet, like Css text-decoration
19:24:08 <addison> ... like text underline position
19:24:18 <addison> ... for japanese, the underline position is on right side
19:25:08 <addison> richard: should watch specifications to make sure default stylesheets take into account
19:25:16 <addison> ... is only informative
19:25:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
19:25:57 <addison> bobby: user agents are encouraged to allow users to select custom fonts
19:26:04 <addison> ... so exposed to user
19:26:16 <addison> ... (demonstrates that FF doesn't expose cursive)
19:26:38 <addison> richard: raise issue with FF to expose it
19:26:48 <chunming> chunming has joined #i18n
19:27:00 <addison> addison: but help them by suggesting right thing. few users come here
19:27:17 <addison> richard:  make blog  post into an article
19:27:21 <addison> ... ?
19:27:28 <addison> ... put this information into the article
19:27:41 <addison> ... such as provide info for how to do this
19:28:07 <addison> bobby: (showing css fonts)
19:28:16 <addison> ... put Kai under cursive as example
19:28:35 <addison> richard: may face objections
19:28:41 <addison> ... from css people
19:29:36 <addison> xiaoqian: wikipage shows kai not under cursive?
19:29:50 <addison> richard: but that classification is different from CSS
19:30:07 <addison> ... john daggett removed from serif
19:30:59 <addison> bobby: would like chinese examples under various other items
19:31:20 <addison> ... most opentype features are required by japanese but not by chinese
19:35:38 <addison> chunming: find mapping because hard to change CSS Font spec
19:35:49 <addison> ... could be an informative document
19:35:53 <addison> ... to make mapping real
19:36:02 <addison> chunming: bobby mentioned emphasis
19:36:15 <addison> ... chinese or chinese/latin
19:36:20 <addison> ... it's different
19:36:42 <addison> richard: browsers are obliquing cursive by default
19:36:46 <addison> ... should stop that
19:37:05 <addison> xiaoqian: tell browser vendors?
19:37:11 <addison> richard: got Kai removed from serif
19:37:19 <addison> ... probably all we can do there now
19:37:26 <addison> ... can contact browser vendors
19:37:33 <addison> .. and provide Kai font for cursive by default
19:37:43 <addison> ... and provide control to allow users to set curssive
19:37:53 <addison> ... and not oblique fonts by default
19:38:02 <addison> ... and then provide documentation to users
19:38:15 <addison> ... about hwo to write style sheet to get Kai
19:38:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
19:38:32 <addison> xiaoqian: more related to mobile browser
19:38:43 <addison> chunming: prelimiary discussion
19:38:46 <addison> ... another sscenario
19:38:54 <addison> ... read discussion from before
19:39:04 <addison> ... for Song different providers with different names
19:39:05 <xiaoqian> s/sscenario/scenario
19:39:17 <addison> ... seems how do we give hints to publishers
19:39:30 <addison> ... how to find similar font if the required name not present
19:39:41 <addison> ... before TPAC had offline discussion
19:39:47 <addison> ... could make list of all possible Sung fonts
19:39:52 <addison> ... to define a "sung" family
19:40:05 <addison> ... is kind of a profile or best practices for content providers
19:40:06 <xiaoqian> s/sung/song
19:40:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
19:40:30 <addison> richard: could be useful
19:40:35 <addison> ... maybe some issues?
19:40:46 <addison> ... need to understand what a browser goes through
19:40:53 <addison> ... to select for a given generic font family
19:41:14 <addison> ... maybe browser specific how font selection works
19:41:36 <addison> chunming: if they could find some information on how user defined font styles
19:41:45 <addison> ... if they fail they'll refer to a generic
19:41:52 <addison> ... and on operating system's font management
19:41:56 <addison> ... to get native fonts
19:42:17 <addison> ... to define defaults for each generic font family
19:42:29 <addison> ... second part is OS specific/implementation specifici
19:42:45 <addison> ... first part relies on CSS definition
19:43:33 <addison> richard: problem with making a list is maintenance
19:43:36 <addison> ... had to keep up
19:44:07 <addison> ... only giving a specific guidance on one specific fontg
19:44:14 <addison> s/fontg/font/
19:44:33 <addison> ... and then separately give user control (show how to fix in their browser)
19:45:18 <addison> richard: in summary we had a discussion if there were additional categories that users want
19:45:23 <addison> ... advice so far is no
19:45:44 <addison> ... no requirement currently
19:46:26 <addison> addison: consideration for dpub rather than stock CSS?
19:46:39 <addison> xiaoqian: talk to DP tomorrow?
19:47:38 <addison> action: xiaoqian: survey publishers if there are requirements for additional/more specific styles in Chinese e-books
19:47:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-360 - Survey publishers if there are requirements for additional/more specific styles in chinese e-books [on Xiaoqian Wu - due 2014-11-06].
19:49:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
19:49:44 <addison> Topic: Lunch
19:50:53 <addison> richard: PING at 8:46
19:51:00 <addison> ... tomorrow
19:53:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
21:07:00 <addison> s/An Qi/AnQi/
21:07:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
21:10:34 <addison> Topic: What's Going On Review
21:15:33 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #i18n
21:16:28 <addison> Topic: Agenda planning
21:16:30 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18n
21:16:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
21:16:48 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
21:17:58 <Leandro> Leandro has joined #i18n
21:21:54 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Locale-based_forms
21:22:01 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/HTML5TimeZone
21:22:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
21:23:33 <addison> http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/5
21:29:51 <addison> rrsagent, make minutes
21:29:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
21:30:45 <addison> Topic: Meeting with HTML in re HTML.next
21:30:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
21:31:05 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
21:31:20 <addison> chair: we're not in the room currently
21:31:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
21:32:26 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18n
21:54:04 <addison> addison has joined #i18n
21:54:13 <addison> "three wishes for I18N"
21:54:40 <addison> addison: we asked for time zone, locale handling, and a mulligan for inspecting our backlog
21:55:04 <addison> HTML taking notes on HTML.next in https://etherpad.mozilla.org/ep/pad/view/ro.XTkA24aN30J/latest
21:55:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
22:25:27 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #i18n
22:29:54 <addison> Topic: Meeting with Best Practices group
22:29:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
22:30:12 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18n
22:32:41 <addison> in DWBP
22:32:47 <addison> channel is #dwbp
22:34:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
22:36:10 <addison> addison has joined #i18n
22:46:03 <fsasaki> no reply yet
22:46:13 <fsasaki> s/no reply yet//
22:48:06 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
22:50:22 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
22:51:27 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
23:04:32 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #i18n
23:13:03 <aphllip> aphllip has joined #i18n
23:13:19 <aphllip> rrsagent, make minutes
23:13:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html aphllip
23:19:28 <addison> addison has joined #i18n
23:19:47 <addison> rrsagent, make minutes?
23:19:47 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'make minutes'
23:19:55 <addison> rrsagent, make minutes
23:19:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
23:21:10 <addison> action: felix: check status of IDNs in ML data best practices
23:21:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-361 - Check status of idns in ml data best practices [on Felix Sasaki - due 2014-11-06].
23:24:47 <addison> Topic: ITS Summary
23:24:51 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/
23:24:58 <addison> felix: that's the spec
23:25:07 <addison> ... we finished last year in the ITS WG
23:25:16 <addison> ... metadata for translation/localization workflows
23:25:22 <Leandro> Leandro has joined #i18n
23:25:22 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#trans-datacat
23:25:23 <addison> ... one item is in HTML natively
23:25:41 <addison> felix: in ITS you not just attributes
23:25:47 <bobtung> bobtung has joined #i18n
23:25:48 <addison> ... but an XPath mechanism to select several items
23:25:55 <addison> ... which is useful for templating
23:26:03 <addison> ... for localization workflows
23:26:11 <addison> ... the translate attribute is clearly useful
23:26:16 <addison> ... what to translate and what to leave alone
23:26:27 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#datacategory-description
23:26:56 <addison> felix: specify things like language, direction, segmentation, usw.
23:27:04 <addison> ... applicable to HTML and XML
23:27:07 <addison> ... not just XML
23:27:13 <addison> ... more metadata items
23:27:23 <addison> ... many are relevant for machine processing
23:27:26 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#mtconfidence
23:27:30 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
23:27:33 <addison> ... such as "mt confidence"
23:27:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
23:27:54 <addison> felix: this is ITS 2.0 in a nutshell
23:27:57 <addison> ... translators implement
23:28:05 <addison> ... understood by l10n tools
23:28:15 <addison> ... extracting from webcontent, etc.
23:28:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
23:28:32 <addison> ... a workflow technology
23:28:56 <addison> felix: when we created this, included all of ITS 1.0
23:29:02 <addison> ... and that had ruby and directionality
23:29:12 <addison> ... but those were not stable in HTML5 until recently
23:29:23 <addison> ... and we couldn't wait
23:29:29 <addison> ... so we have some potential gaps
23:29:44 <addison> ... should we have a 2.1 to reflect changes in HTML in particular
23:29:57 <addison> ... technical documenntation, DITA, and others
23:30:09 <addison> ... would benefit from HTML compatible XML grammars
23:30:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
23:32:23 <addison> felix: need to charter to do work
23:32:31 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#textanalysis
23:33:35 <addison> felix: starting to be used for things like generating SEO
23:35:02 <addison> Topic: IDNs
23:35:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
23:35:21 <addison> dennis: IDNs handled by the web
23:35:27 <addison> ... user adoption is a problem
23:35:33 <addison> ... and apps are not IDA aware
23:35:40 <addison> ... browsers for example
23:35:54 <addison> ... initially you'd see punycode instead of Ulabel
23:36:08 <addison> ... email clients
23:36:14 <addison> ... gmail has one approach
23:36:27 <addison> ... MSFT and others hopefully will join in
23:36:46 <addison> ... update IDNA page in group
23:36:54 <addison> ... why don't developer want to handle
23:36:59 <addison> ... one issue is security
23:37:17 <addison> ... such as spoofing
23:38:13 <addison> dennis: reading about best practices
23:38:22 <addison> ... is like "keep away from IDNs"
23:41:38 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/IRIStatus
23:46:21 <fsasaki> https://url.spec.whatwg.org/
23:48:13 <addison> addison: (natters away for a bit)
23:48:19 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/articles/idn-and-iri/
23:48:24 <addison> richard: updating the document we have. is it the above?
23:48:41 <addison> dennis: yeup
23:48:46 <addison> s/yeup/yep/
23:48:55 <addison> ... how?
23:49:09 <addison> richard: I'm original author
23:49:20 <addison> ... have some ideas of what I want to achieve?
23:49:41 <addison> ... chat about ideas for changes?
23:50:47 <addison> addison: different things could do here
23:50:58 <addison> ... depends on what to do
23:51:04 <addison> richard: both introduce for lay person
23:51:09 <addison> ... and also second goal
23:51:19 <addison> ... bring IDNs and path names togehter in one document
23:52:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
23:53:09 <addison> richard: I spoke to Sam Ruby about the URl spec
23:53:20 <addison> ... and he was talking about punycode mail addresses
23:53:32 <addison> ... rather, domain names
23:53:37 <addison> ... how represented in browser
23:53:49 <addison> ... sometimes punycode and sometimes ULABEL
23:53:56 <addison> ... things like whitelists
23:54:00 <addison> ... and Sam has some tests
23:54:15 <addison> ... and he pointed out that his tests were inconsistent
23:54:26 <addison> ... and I pointed out that this was right in some cases
23:54:47 <addison> ... might need to write down the expecations (and technical details) about what to expect
23:55:04 <addison> richard: you are also interested in the /path aspect?
23:55:18 <addison> dennis: whole path
23:55:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-i18n-minutes.html addison
23:55:45 <addison> richard: Universal Access issue
23:55:47 <r12a> http://rishida.net/blog/?p=1083
23:55:54 <addison> richard:  that's a blog post I wrote
23:56:43 <addison> ... they are not going to "do much" but track what is going on
23:56:54 <addison> ... hoping Google will take lead on email
23:57:04 <addison> ... but once they've entered space
23:57:13 <addison> ... hope competition will ensue to address
23:57:24 <addison> ... APTLD is hoping that will unblock
23:58:03 <addison> dennis: next meeting is morocco
23:58:12 <addison> richard: how can we help with this?
23:58:21 <addison> ... can't necessarily solve the problem
23:58:25 <addison> ... but want to be helpful
23:58:43 <addison> dennis: be in the community
23:58:49 <addison> ... anbd find the pathways forward
23:58:54 <addison> s/anbd/and/
23:59:02 <addison> ... expose the problems
23:59:47 <addison> richard: will socialize