See also: IRC log
presence: many, many, people
<scribe> ACTION: felix to check M24 report - also one for whole project needed? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
<scribe> ACTION: felix to nudge to get C forms filled by 15 January [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]
<scribe> ACTION: felix to nudge everybody to make M24 report updates by Dec. 15, in word doc sent around Mo. 25 November, with change marked and send it to felix [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]
<scribe> ACTION: felix to reserve preparation meeting room [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04]
date will be 26 feb, review prep meeting starting 25 noon
physical attend: dave, david / reinhard, jirka, tadej, stephan / somebody from cocomore, pedro, felix
remote: jan, yves, arle (possible physical attendance)
slides + agenda from M12 review are here http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Rome-lux-prep#Agenda_for_Luxembourg
felix: align review prep with m24 report: people responsible for a WP will prepare slides and gather input from people responsible for a task
WP1 - felix WP2 - Dave WP3 - Cocomore WP4 - Pedro WP5 - Ankit / John WP6 - Arle+Felix+Nieves
WP1 (30 min) WP2 (15) WP3 (1 hour)
dave: when writing the M24 report make sure you have addressed all the comments from M12 review
WP4 (40 min) WP5 (30) WP6 .30 1/2 min)
s/WP3 .1/WP3 (1.5)
WP2 - XLIFF mapping, ITS ontology
s/WP2 .15)/WP2 (30)
slide template for review v
dave: slot for wrap up: liaisons with other projects, uptake of ITS2, sustainability of work
... will cover the ITS IG in WP2
http://www.w3.org/International/logos/Overview.html
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/multilingualweb-lt-partners/2013Nov/0013.html
david: update of D3.1.2 and D5.1.2 by end of next week
pedro: D3.2.2 is done
... D3.2.3 needs input from phil
... D3.2.1 again phil
<scribe> ACTION: felix to check with phil about D3.2.1 and D3.2.3 and to submit D3.2.2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action05]
<scribe> ACTION: felix to submit D5.1.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action06]
felix: subcontractors are also done, just bluegriffon needs final output and apperance in public bluegriffon release
http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-mlw-metadata-us-impl-20130307/
felix: is it OK with everybody to contineu work on that in the interest group?
dave: makes sense, otherwise we have to finish it
discussion on how to continue with http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-mlw-metadata-us-impl-20130307/ - have only wiki and not publish a new version of the doc, or continue to work on it in IG
<scribe> ACTION: felix to check process of moving document mlw-metadata from WG to IG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action07]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Madrid_November_2013_f2f#Monday_25th
christian joines the meeting
christian: usage doc is valuable, we need to make sure that the status is well known
... as of writing it was a snapshot
... two ways of moving forward:
1) say it is historic
2) make it a living doc, which goes modified when implementations are changed
3) make it a versioned doc. saying: now that its2 is out we see what is valid for its2
scribe: and in 2014 we target an additional update
<jnelson> +
olaf-michael: living doc mai be useful
... now there will be naturally a let down of activity
... in one year or so peopel will go back and say "what is happening"
... for that a living doc is good
dave: building it up on the wiki and visibily publish in "tr" space
... how often would we generate the "tr" doc?
felix: depends on the group
serge: do you plan to extend implementation scope for its2?
... look for further implementations?
... at this point the industry needs to understand: how can its2 be implemented?
... we could run the implementation "discovery" project in CRISP
... to connect research with actual production work
serge: crisp is a program in gala
... idea of crisp is to involve people as experts
... the industry is short on r&d effort
... experts figh with day 2 day work vs. research
... crisp should give the opportunity on how to implement new technology in their work
... surveys are about sharing knowledge
... crisp is something differently
... idea is to engage people
... e.g. to provide people with info about new technologies that they can use in their work
... crisp is about to connect research and real world
... I will run an implementation project - discovery to find the place of new technology in the day2day work
... we could do dissamination not only be announcements
... saying "how about thinking to use it"
... it is really starting to get tracktion
... on ISO work 20 people have been spending time to provide feedback
... so crisp really works
tadej: is this related to LT advisory platform?
serge: lt advisory is just one of the projects
<chriLi> +q
serge: crisp is a bridge for people, industry players etc. to get engaged
... w3c and oasis are concerned with too many industries
... crisp is particualry engaged for companies to safe on r&d
... lt advisory is one of the projects
dave: a link to the ITS IG
... between the IG and crisp
... having some documentation, more details for use cases doc
serge: for its2 there is a community, very lifely
... does not make sense to create another forum
... but crisp can be used to create another forum for its2
... the LSPs don't know what its2 and w3c are
... no need to dubplicate the groups IMO
dave: how would that work?
serge: an "implementation discovery" project
... saying: there has been work done: x,y,z
... do you think that this is applicable with your clients?
... this will be a win win situation for everybody
tadej: how is the process to make this work?
serge: first step: formulate its2 "core" info that is understandable for production people
... put "its2" into a plane language for head of production, solution architects, ...
felix: is that like the white paper material that pedro mentioned?
pedro: yes, but there are three levels of communication:
1) business persons
2) explaining why its2 is useful. we discussed about making a series of short articles. maybe we can do the same approach here
pedro: maybe we can send initial information, e.g. short description of every data category every week
... that can be published on the web site
... the spec itself is hard to read
3) supporting for implementers. Once the decision maker goes for this and 2) understand the implementations, the implementers need technical support
tadej: for the 1st level, maybe not even talk about data categegories
chriLi: serge, did explanation of crisp
... saying "do we plan to extend implementation scope for its2"
... my understanding is: now we want to get more and more implementations
... thinking is correlated
... e.g. okapi and other impl. that have been created via EU funding: they are pretty cool, the impl. only needs to be used
... there is only adoption needed
... in addition we would benefit from new implementations
... e.g. in more content creation environments
... the discussion you had after serge's initial question was: how do we get here?
... serge offered crisp for supporting that
... that is great
... my hope would be that we would be able to realize possible synergies
... e.g. if gala runs an intro section - gala would contact someone from the ig e.g. about re-use of material
serge: sure, we are in agreement
... a pretty common implementation discovery project
... obtaining material, providing business like explanations etc.
dave: pedro broke it down well and the three lines of action
pedro: we have a lot of material, this is about compiling the material
... many LSPs use third party things
... so LSPs will implement ITS2 if their clients demand it
... compiling the deliverables, presentations, ... we have good material here
olaf-michael: for a real success there will be 20, 30, ... LSPs finding some benefit in implementing ITS2
... it helps to see: other implementers have implemented things
pedro: a pitty that phil Ritchie is not here
... he gave me in bled he gave me a real use case of ITS2
... they had some problems with a client. They suggested to solve the problem with ITS2
... that is effective for production people. They need to see how they can use it for real clients
... if the final client does not annotate content with ITS2, we won't achieve nothing
serge: software developers and CMS implementers are targets for ITS2 implementations
... there are at least 1200 CMS developers
... next step would be: why should CMS developers implement ITS2?
... they are well-known to be reluctant to implement things related to translation?
... after that others will follow
stephan: cat tool side is as important
serge: CMS is the primary area of interest
dave: does crisp have visibility and influence on this?
serge: yes
... but we need the language for these people
pedro: we discussed this in the FEISGILT event
... one conclusion was: for CMS people, multilingual is just a feature
... we may have to break down the feature
david: need to be possible in content formats like DocBook or DITA
... if DITA has a standard usage of ITS2 it is more likely to get implementations
pedro: some digestable information that is not only about ITS2, but about multilingual CMS in general
serge: can we say: if you do not use ITS2, you are not compliant to HTML5?
david: you would have to say "not HTML5+ITS2 compliant"
tadeJ: say: don't hack something yourself
<chriLi> I have to leave ...
david: CMS producers are both big guys but also small companies
pedro: big actors need to lead the process
... small actors don't have the bandwidth to introduce more complexity
... game first with the big guys
stephan: in CMS world, people don't see that translation is a process
... we need to point out that translation is a process, not the multilingual feature
... what would be the benefit for the decision maker if you don't talk about translation process?
pedro: you safe money, you safe time, and you improve quality
jan: software developers, tool makers - there is some base level
... who does that first and creates leadership
... if I look at developers in various ecosystems, think about they need to be competitive
... a developer wants his product to be locally relevant and reach more markets
... if there are leaders who can say: with ITS2 you can reach the markets with more accuracy
... having the data re-wrapped which looks like an SDK, it will help to implement
... I do believe that there is a business case
... important to get xliff 2.0 finished and then ITS2 aligned
felix: mapping of xliff 2.0 and ITS2 is an important item
pedro: EU web sites are an important business case
olaf-michael: please consider strasbourg april 2014 - meeting of language technology services and EU, in JIAMCATT
... will be a great place to meet IT people of European bodies involved
... 23-25 April, in Strasbourg
pedro: as a group we can split the work, e.g. 19 data categories - who can do what?
... in Dublin we discussed about training and consultancy
... there are people who can even make money with this
jirka: have some information in the HTML5 course to explain translate attribute etc.
... so that people who go to HTML5 course will see the info about ITS2
... in that way we can reach each participant of HTML5 course
... not sure if people would subscribe in multilingual web course
... we should try to approach widest audience possible
pedro: about CMS etc.
... we have a flagship here: okapi
... we have to use the flagship
... another is drupal
... we have to push those
... in drupal now there are 77 downloads, that is not bad
stephan: we have not got much feedback yet from the drupal community
... we try to push on that level
... from the general drupal community it is specialized
... that is there we have to work on
jan: having a toolkit, SDK, for people to work with
... had a video of training - 70k plus views
... many people from various language communities
... a global community
... if I talk about their core dev platform, then make ITS2 part of it
... that is a good approach
... my community has been aware of XLIFF
... there is an opportunity with xliff 2 how it aligns with its2
... as a company there is this opportunity
... there is a lot of a good work, e.g. the EU web site
... my main goal: have the individual developers an easier life
stephan: that comes back to translation tool developers
jan: right
discussion on XLIFF 2, ITS2, impl. in translation tools
serge: how do reach the W3C communities
... are we sure that w3c members pay attention to its2?
... how to improve outreach to w3c members?
felix: have a "doog fooding" approach
... ask w3c to use its2 in spec development, in IRC etc.
<scribe> ACTION: felix to explore "doog fooding" of its2 in w3c [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action08]
olaf-michael: bring items to lider, e.g. marking up the web site with its2
get its2 checking into the i18n checker / validator suite
serge: its2 compliance
... how about that label
... e.g. oxygen, outlook, ...
discussion about compliance testing
<Arle> arle: I would worry about putting labels on products versus output. In my experience such labels are very tricky (hard to anticipate all cases, version changes, many issues)
discussion of readiness
pedro: IG should concentrate on 2-3 activities
... everything else is not realistic
... if there is an interest to continue work on readiness
... to help the processing of the content
... or to standardize the web service for localization
readiness extension implementation is at http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/ITS_Implementations#GBC_Server_and_PLINT_.28Linguaserve_I.S._S.A..29
http://www.w3.org/TR/its2req/#readiness
pedro: currently everybody has to connect CMS and localization web service by hand
<mdelolmo> Example CMS XHTML source file
mauricio: this is an example that we process in the CMS <> TMS showcase
<itsx:readinessRule ready-at="21/01/2013 13:48:56:000 CET" priority="1/3" complete-by="19/02/2013 16:00:00:000 CET" ready-to-process="hTranslate, reviseQA, hReview, publish"/>
pedro: processing data for localization on the fly - you need information about what processing has been done etc.
leroy: we used CMIS objects to convey that kind of information
pedro: that works in interop, but not in real time systems
... you need the information in the html5 file itself
leroy: we put the info in linked data
<mdelolmo> in the translated file:
<mdelolmo> <itsx:readinessRule complete-by="19/02/2013 16:00:00:000 CET" priority="1/3" ready-at="30/01/2013 17:46:27:744 CET" ready-to-process="hReview, publish"/>
pedro: client cannot work with attached file, for various reasons
... taking automated localization processes into account will make its2 useful for more people
... what, who, when, how
... these need answers
olaf-michael: document the differences?
dave: there are things that are not in either implementation and that need to be addressed?
pedro: a much more general web service can be done with info in the data
dave: pablo sent a version around a while ago
pablo: our client is demanding it
arle: this could contribute nicely to linport
discussion on relation to linport, interop now
xliff 2.0 timeline - best guess would be early summer 2014
felix: should we reserve time to discuss that in the IG or not?
dave: setting the date and timelines is the challenge
pedro: same approach with different data formats possible - CMS < > TMS, web service, ...
... readiness is broader than connecting tms <> cms
... its2 for the moment does not support processes
dave: have a page in the ITS IG so that people can comment on it
felix: sure, can create that page - important is that in the long run you agree on one approach
<scribe> ACTION: felix to prepare pages for outreach action points 1-2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action09]
<scribe> ACTION: pedro with stephan to provide input to "mgmt" overview of its2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action10]
<scribe> ACTION: stephan with pedro to provide input to "mgmt" overview of its2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action11]
messages about data categories (action 2)
dave: send out messages other time
... every two weeks
... "heart beat" like thing
<scribe> ACTION: daveL to group people and data categories for sending out infos about its2 data categories [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action12]
pedro: also do it in several languages
dave will do provenance + terminology
ankit mt confidence
pedro readiness + localization note
for translation and post-editing
localization quality issue - arle
15-20 lines per data category, not more. can be re-used in many fora
yves - domain
allowed characters - stephan
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-translate-flag
translate "yes" - jirka
text analysis - tadej+felix
felix: crisp implementation discovery - how will that happen?
serge: ITS2 needs to be spelled out for constituencies: business people, developers, ...
... should create a project: "implementation discovery" - how can people deploy this to their business
felix: timeline?
serge: we need some material - "the business language"
dave: tie that to istanbul gala?
serge: no need to do that - can engage people independently
<scribe> ACTION: serge to follow up with crisp implementation discovery after the "business language" for its2 is ready [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action13]
serge: we can announce this before christmas and say: next year we will run a number of implementation discovery projects
... "here is the its2 project"
pedro: the 20 pieces of information help here
serge: don't plan a news letter
pedro: this is not a news letter
... you can use this for the crips implmementation discovery too
tadej: this works if each piece is enough
... good strategy to have sustained response
pedro: template should have: how can the data category solve a concrete problem
tadej: use the "story telling" approach
pedro: talk about what problem your solve
... very simple things
... four lines
stephan: who would be reading that?
pedro: this is for production people, not developers or business
... the production guy says: "how can I solve the problem?"
... template can be: description of data cat, motivation from req doc, at the end case you solve
... maybe even 10 lines only
XLIFF 2.0 mappings
<scribe> continues outreach on the lines of 1-2-3
readiness
have a heartbeat, a call every three weeks
call time still be 2 p.m. CET
arle: wikipedia article update needs update
<scribe> ACTION: arle to update its2 wikipedia article [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action14]
<Nieves_> https://www.dropbox.com/home/joint%20projects/LT-Web/ITS%202.0%20Video/SCRIPTS
<Nieves_> link to the doodle (looking for a date for the screencast recording): http://doodle.com/465eaedumkgrivbw
thanks a lot, Nieves_
stephan: feedback welcome until friday
... final version on the 6th
<Nieves_> link to the updated main video script (by volker and sophia) please check also the points on the email they sent: https://www.dropbox.com/home/joint%20projects/LT-Web/ITS%202.0%20Video/SCRIPTS/SCRIPT%20FOR%20THE%20MAIN%20VIDEO
<Arle> General script: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MtIMqf6oCe1SOA5mIHQEvO-iEGy_dLeVt4iVKSd3NR4/edit
<scribe> new version of doc from sophia and volker at https://docs.google.com/document/d/15AoG4D75MWu7v6BzkV4Mj59qr_Xm7udvZacZfcL5QQI/edit?usp=sharing
please make edits now only in https://docs.google.com/document/d/15AoG4D75MWu7v6BzkV4Mj59qr_Xm7udvZacZfcL5QQI/edit
<tadej> http://mentalfloss.com/article/48795/9-little-translation-mistakes-caused-big-problems
<Nieves_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpIOClX1jPE
<Yves_> some mistranslations with pictures: http://www.boredpanda.com/funny-chinese-translation-fails/
<Arle_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U
<Nieves_> https://www.youtube.com/user/W3CITS20
arle: channel can be continued to be filled with videos after the end of the project
... felix and I are admin, others are welcome to do that too
see http://doodle.com/465eaedumkgrivbw
going through doodle and add time
arle will send time proposals to tatiana
script about okapi and ocelot - to be done by felix
script about oxygen - by feli
x
felix: in IG should we review ongoing new techs to have its2 adoption?
dave: doing a json-ld file
... or something like that - equivalent of ITS data categories that people can use that in their technologies
... json-ld serialization of its2
<scribe> ACTION: daveL to work on json-ld mapping of its2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action15]
felix: regular calls about other tecs, like we did with interop now - e.g. xliff 2
david: in january or after, yes
... including work on the mapping
olaf-michael: this friday there will be a presenation on xliff 2 in london
... and pedro talking about its2, both talks on aslib
... bluegriffon and init implementations?
add bluegriffon and init to the IG presentations list
http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/Outreach_material
presentations from meta-forum
<omstefanov> and Pedro's presentation at ASLIB Translating and the Computer 35, 29 Nov 2013 in London, AFTER it is given.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137 of Date: 2012-09-20 20:19:01 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Mirc_Timestamped_Log_Format (score 0.80) FAILED: s/WP3 .1/WP3 (1.5)/ FAILED: s/WP2 .15)/WP2 (30)/ Succeeded: s/WP6 (23/WP6 .30/ Succeeded: s/breakdown/let down/ Succeeded: s/21/2/ Succeeded: s/Jamcatt/JIAMCATT/ Succeeded: s/its2ß/its2?/ Succeeded: s/poste editing/post-editing/ No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: fsasaki Inferring Scribes: fsasaki Present: many many people Yves omstefanov swalter davelewis leroy pnietoca felix pedro John mdelolmo Ankit jan Milan Agenda: http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Madrid_November_2013_f2f#Monday_25th Got date from IRC log name: 25 Nov 2013 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html People with action items: arle davel felix pedro serge stephan with[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]