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09:02:19 <fsasaki> meeting: MLW-LT WG
09:02:21 <fsasaki> chair: felix
09:02:35 <fsasaki> agenda: http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Madrid_November_2013_f2f#Monday_25th
09:02:44 <fsasaki> presence: many, many, people
09:03:13 <fsasaki> topic: review prep
09:03:20 <fsasaki> action: felix to check M24 report - also one for whole project needed?
09:03:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-571 - Check m24 report - also one for whole project needed? [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-12-02].
09:03:29 <fsasaki> action: felix to nudge to get C forms filled by 15 January
09:03:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-572 - Nudge to get c forms filled by 15 january [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-12-02].
09:03:35 <fsasaki> action: felix to nudge everybody to make M24 report updates by Dec. 15, in word doc sent around Mo. 25 November, with change marked and send it to felix
09:03:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-573 - Nudge everybody to make m24 report updates by dec. 15, in word doc sent around mo. 25 november, with change marked and send it to felix [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-12-02].
09:03:41 <fsasaki> action: felix to reserve preparation meeting room
09:03:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-574 - Reserve preparation meeting room [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-12-02].
09:03:58 <fsasaki> date will be 26 feb, review prep meeting starting 25 noon
09:04:04 <fsasaki> physical attend: dave, david / reinhard, jirka, tadej, stephan / somebody from cocomore, pedro, felix
09:04:07 <fsasaki> remote: jan, yves, arle (possible physical attendance)
09:04:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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09:04:24 <Ankit> present+ Ankit
09:04:40 <Milan> present+ Milan
09:04:46 <fsasaki> present: many, many, people
09:04:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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09:05:13 <Yves_> present+ Yves
09:05:14 <omstefanov> present+ omstefanov
09:05:24 <pedro> pedro has joined #mlw-lt
09:07:05 <fsasaki> slides + agenda from M12 review are here http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Rome-lux-prep#Agenda_for_Luxembourg
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09:09:40 <fsasaki> felix: align review prep with m24 report: people responsible for a WP will prepare slides and gather input from people responsible for a task
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09:10:43 <fsasaki> WP1 - felix WP2 - Dave WP3 - Cocomore WP4 - Pedro WP5 - Ankit / John WP6 - Arle+Felix+Nieves
09:13:07 <fsasaki> WP1 (30 min) WP2 (15) WP3 (1 hour)
09:13:31 <fsasaki> dave: when writing the M24 report make sure you have addressed all the comments from M12 review
09:16:25 <fsasaki>  WP4 (40 min) WP5 (30) WP6 (23 1/2 min)
09:16:59 <fsasaki> s/WP3 .1/WP3 (1.5)
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09:17:18 <fsasaki> WP2 - XLIFF mapping, ITS ontology
09:17:37 <fsasaki> s/WP2 .15)/WP2 (30)
09:18:11 <fsasaki> s/WP6 (23/WP6 .30
09:18:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:18:47 <fsasaki> slide template for review v
09:18:49 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/att-0156/slides-template-v1.pptx
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09:19:46 <swalter> present+ swalter
09:19:49 <fsasaki> dave: slot for wrap up: liaisons with other projects, uptake of ITS2, sustainability of work
09:19:59 <fsasaki> .. will cover the ITS IG in WP2
09:21:10 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/logos/Overview.html
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09:24:50 <fsasaki> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/multilingualweb-lt-partners/2013Nov/0013.html
09:24:50 <fsasaki> topic: lt-web deliverables
09:24:51 <daveL> present+ davelewis
09:26:31 <fsasaki> david: update of D3.1.2 and D5.1.2 by end of next week
09:26:52 <Ankit_> Ankit_ has joined #mlw-lt
09:27:59 <fsasaki> pedro: D3.2.2 is done
09:28:19 <Ankit> Ankit has joined #mlw-lt
09:28:22 <fsasaki> .. D3.2.3 needs input from phil
09:28:57 <fsasaki> .. D3.2.1 again phil
09:29:30 <fsasaki> action: felix to check with phil about D3.2.1 and D3.2.3 and to submit D3.2.2
09:29:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-575 - Check with phil about d3.2.1 and d3.2.3 and to submit d3.2.2 [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-12-02].
09:30:34 <fsasaki> action: felix to submit D5.1.1
09:30:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-576 - Submit d5.1.1 [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-12-02].
09:33:46 <fsasaki> felix: subcontractors are also done, just bluegriffon needs final output and apperance in public bluegriffon release
09:34:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
09:34:23 <leroy> present+ leroy
09:34:50 <fsasaki> topic: usage scenarios doc
09:35:04 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-mlw-metadata-us-impl-20130307/
09:36:25 <fsasaki> felix: is it OK with everybody to contineu work on that in the interest group?
09:36:36 <fsasaki> dave: makes sense, otherwise we have to finish it
09:42:32 <fsasaki> discussion on how to continue with http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-mlw-metadata-us-impl-20130307/ - have only wiki and not publish a new version of the doc, or continue to work on it in IG
09:43:30 <fsasaki> action: felix to check process of moving document mlw-metadata from WG to IG
09:43:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-577 - Check process of moving document mlw-metadata from wg to ig [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-12-02].
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10:25:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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10:30:22 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Madrid_November_2013_f2f#Monday_25th
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10:32:38 <fsasaki> christian joines the meeting
10:32:56 <fsasaki> christian: usage doc is valuable, we need to make sure that the status is well known
10:32:56 <pnietoca> present+ pnietoca
10:33:06 <fsasaki> .. as of writing it was a snapshot
10:33:11 <fsasaki> .. two ways of moving forward:
10:33:22 <fsasaki> 1) say it is historic
10:33:44 <fsasaki> 2) make it a living doc, which goes modified when implementations are changed
10:34:09 <fsasaki> 3) make it a versioned doc. saying: now that its2 is out we see what is valid for its2
10:34:25 <fsasaki> .. and in 2014 we target an additional update
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10:34:57 <fsasaki> present+ felix
10:35:04 <JohnJ> present+
10:35:12 <pedro> present+ pedro
10:35:15 <JohnJ> present+ John
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10:35:31 <mdelolmo> present+ mdelolmo
10:35:36 <Ankit> present+ Ankit
10:35:42 <jnelson> +
10:35:46 <fsasaki> olaf-michael: living doc mai be useful
10:35:53 <fsasaki> present+ jan
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10:36:04 <jnelson> present +
10:36:14 <Milan> present+ Milan
10:36:21 <fsasaki> olaf-michael: now there will be naturally a breakdown of activity
10:36:40 <fsasaki> .. in one year or so peopel will go back and say "what is happening"
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10:36:49 <fsasaki> .. for that a living doc is good
10:36:59 <fsasaki> s/breakdown/let down/
10:38:08 <fsasaki> dave: building it up on the wiki and visibily publish in "tr" space
10:38:27 <fsasaki> .. how often would we generate the "tr" doc?
10:39:16 <fsasaki> felix: depends on the group
10:39:32 <fsasaki> serge: do you plan to extend implementation scope for its2?
10:39:41 <fsasaki> .. look for further implementations?
10:40:01 <fsasaki> .. at this point the industry needs to understand: how can its2 be implemented?
10:40:23 <fsasaki> .. we could run the implementation "discovery" project in CRISP
10:40:31 <fsasaki> .. to connect research with actual production work
10:41:18 <fsasaki> s/21/2/
10:41:23 <fsasaki> topic: crisp and its21
10:41:26 <fsasaki> serge: crisp is a program in gala
10:41:38 <fsasaki> .. idea of crisp is to involve people as experts
10:41:45 <fsasaki> .. the industry is short on r&d effort
10:41:59 <fsasaki> .. experts figh with day 2 day work vs. research
10:42:17 <fsasaki> .. crisp should give the opportunity on how to implement new technology in their work
10:42:37 <fsasaki> .. surveys are about sharing knowledge
10:42:44 <fsasaki> .. crisp is something differently
10:42:52 <fsasaki> .. idea is to engage people
10:43:09 <fsasaki> .. e.g. to provide people with info about new technologies that they can use in their work
10:43:23 <fsasaki> .. crisp is about to connect research and real world
10:43:45 <fsasaki> .. I will run an implementation project - discovery to find the place of new technology in the day2day work
10:44:01 <fsasaki> .. we could do dissamination not only be announcements
10:44:10 <fsasaki> .. saying "how about thinking to use it"
10:44:23 <fsasaki> .. it is really starting to get tracktion
10:44:40 <fsasaki> .. on ISO work 20 people have been spending time to provide feedback
10:44:44 <fsasaki> .. so crisp really works
10:44:53 <fsasaki> tadej: is this related to LT advisory platform?
10:45:09 <fsasaki> serge: lt advisory is just one of the projects
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10:45:41 <fsasaki> q+ chriLi
10:45:58 <chriLi> +q
10:46:34 <fsasaki> serge: crisp is a bridge for people, industry players etc. to get engaged
10:46:44 <fsasaki> .. w3c and oasis are concerned with too many industries
10:46:57 <fsasaki> .. crisp is particualry engaged for companies to safe on r&d
10:47:16 <fsasaki> .. lt advisory is one of the projects
10:47:33 <fsasaki> dave: a link to the ITS IG
10:47:51 <fsasaki> .. between the IG and crisp
10:48:09 <fsasaki> .. having some documentation, more details for use cases doc
10:48:20 <fsasaki> serge: for its2 there is a community, very lifely
10:48:30 <fsasaki> .. does not make sense to create another forum
10:48:47 <fsasaki> .. but crisp can be used to create another forum for its2
10:48:58 <fsasaki> .. the LSPs don't know what its2 and w3c are
10:49:07 <fsasaki> .. no need to dubplicate the groups IMO
10:49:12 <fsasaki> dave: how would that work?
10:49:22 <fsasaki> serge: an "implementation discovery" project
10:49:32 <fsasaki> .. saying: there has been work done: x,y,z
10:49:50 <fsasaki> .. do you think that this is applicable with your clients?
10:49:57 <fsasaki> .. this will be a win win situation for everybody
10:50:17 <fsasaki> tadej: how is the process to make this work?
10:50:35 <fsasaki> serge: first step: formulate its2 "core" info that is understandable for production people
10:50:57 <fsasaki> ..  put "its2" into a plane language for head of production, solution architects, ...
10:51:58 <fsasaki> felix: is that like the white paper material that pedro mentioned?
10:52:06 <fsasaki> pedro: yes, but there are three levels of communication:
10:52:10 <fsasaki> 1) business persons
10:52:31 <Milan> Milan has left #mlw-lt
10:52:39 <fsasaki> 2) explaining why its2 is useful. we discussed about making a series of short articles. maybe we can do the same approach here
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10:53:07 <fsasaki> pedro: maybe we can send initial information, e.g. short description of every data category every week
10:53:16 <fsasaki> .. that can be published on the web site
10:53:21 <fsasaki> .. the spec itself is hard to read
10:53:51 <fsasaki> 3) supporting for implementers. Once the decision maker goes for this and 2) understand the implementations, the implementers need technical support
10:54:11 <fsasaki> tadej: for the 1st level, maybe not even talk about data categegories
10:54:17 <fsasaki> ack chr
10:54:45 <fsasaki> chriLi: serge, did explanation of crisp
10:55:00 <fsasaki> .. saying "do we plan to extend implementation scope for its2"
10:55:12 <fsasaki> .. my understanding is: now we want to get more and more implementations
10:55:20 <fsasaki> .. thinking is correlated
10:55:42 <fsasaki> .. e.g. okapi and other impl. that have been created via EU funding: they are pretty cool, the impl. only needs to be used
10:55:49 <fsasaki> .. there is only adoption needed
10:55:58 <fsasaki> .. in addition we would benefit from new implementations
10:56:10 <fsasaki> .. e.g. in more content creation environments
10:56:30 <fsasaki> .. the discussion you had after serge's initial question was: how do we get here?
10:56:37 <fsasaki> .. serge offered crisp for supporting that
10:56:48 <fsasaki> .. that is great
10:57:01 <fsasaki> .. my hope would be that we would be able to realize possible synergies
10:57:21 <fsasaki> .. e.g. if gala runs an intro section - gala would contact someone from the ig e.g. about re-use of material
10:57:38 <fsasaki> serge: sure, we are in agreement
10:58:09 <fsasaki> .. a pretty common implementation discovery project
10:58:17 <fsasaki> .. obtaining material, providing business like explanations etc.
10:58:43 <fsasaki> dave: pedro broke it down well and the three lines of action
10:59:08 <fsasaki> pedro: we have a lot of material, this is about compiling the material
10:59:29 <fsasaki> .. many LSPs use third party things
10:59:43 <fsasaki> .. so LSPs will implement ITS2 if their clients demand it
11:00:11 <fsasaki> .. compiling the deliverables, presentations, ... we have good material here
11:01:02 <fsasaki> olaf-michael: for a real success there will be 20, 30, ... LSPs finding some benefit in implementing ITS2
11:01:14 <fsasaki> .. it helps to see: other implementers have implemented things
11:01:28 <fsasaki> pedro: a pitty that phil Ritchie is not here
11:01:42 <fsasaki> .. he gave me in bled he gave me a real use case of ITS2
11:01:58 <fsasaki> .. they had some problems with a client. They suggested to solve the problem with ITS2
11:02:16 <fsasaki> .. that is effective for production people. They need to see how they can use it for real clients
11:02:36 <fsasaki> .. if the final client does not annotate content with ITS2, we won't achieve nothing
11:02:54 <fsasaki> serge: software developers and CMS implementers are targets for ITS2 implementations
11:03:03 <fsasaki> .. there are at least 1200 CMS developers
11:03:16 <fsasaki> .. next step would be: why should CMS developers implement ITS2?
11:03:40 <fsasaki> .. they are well-known to be reluctant to implement things related to translation?
11:03:47 <fsasaki> .. after that others will follow
11:03:59 <fsasaki> stephan: cat tool side is as important
11:04:18 <fsasaki> serge: CMS is the primary area of interest
11:04:32 <fsasaki> dave: does crisp have visibility and influence on this?
11:04:36 <fsasaki> serge: yes
11:05:10 <fsasaki> .. but we need the language for these people
11:05:26 <fsasaki> pedro: we discussed this in the FEISGILT event
11:05:46 <fsasaki> .. one conclusion was: for CMS people, multilingual is just a feature
11:05:54 <fsasaki> .. we may have to break down the feature
11:06:36 <fsasaki> david: need to be possible in content formats like DocBook or DITA
11:07:08 <fsasaki> .. if DITA has a standard usage of ITS2 it is more likely to get implementations
11:08:15 <fsasaki> pedro: some digestable information that is not only about ITS2, but about multilingual CMS in general
11:09:02 <fsasaki> serge: can we say: if you do not use ITS2, you are not compliant to HTML5?
11:09:14 <fsasaki> david: you would have to say "not HTML5+ITS2 compliant"
11:09:33 <fsasaki> tadeJ: say: don't hack something yourself
11:09:47 <chriLi> I have to leave ...
11:10:20 <fsasaki> david: CMS producers are both big guys but also small companies
11:11:10 <fsasaki> pedro: big actors need to lead the process
11:11:26 <fsasaki> .. small actors don't have the bandwidth to introduce more complexity
11:11:40 <fsasaki> .. game first with the big guys
11:12:05 <fsasaki> stephan: in CMS world, people don't see that translation is a process
11:12:27 <fsasaki> .. we need to point out that translation is a process, not the multilingual feature
11:13:10 <fsasaki> stephan: what would be the benefit for the decision maker if you don't talk about translation process?
11:13:21 <fsasaki> pedro: you safe money, you safe time, and you improve quality
11:13:40 <fsasaki> jan: software developers, tool makers - there is some base level
11:13:48 <fsasaki> .. who does that first and creates leadership
11:14:06 <fsasaki> .. if I look at developers in various ecosystems, think about they need to be competitive
11:14:21 <fsasaki> .. a developer wants his product to be locally relevant and reach more markets
11:14:45 <fsasaki> .. if there are leaders who can say: with ITS2 you can reach the markets with more accuracy
11:15:09 <fsasaki> .. having the data re-wrapped which looks like an SDK, it will help to implement
11:15:23 <fsasaki> .. I do believe that there is a business case
11:16:39 <fsasaki> jan: important to get xliff 2.0 finished and then ITS2 aligned
11:17:50 <fsasaki> felix: mapping of xliff 2.0 and ITS2 is an important item
11:18:13 <fsasaki> pedro: EU web sites are an important business case
11:18:55 <fsasaki> olaf-michael: please consider strasbourg april 2014 - meeting of language technology services and EU, in Jamcatt
11:19:15 <fsasaki> .. will be a great place to meet IT people of European bodies involved
11:19:41 <fsasaki> .. 23-25 April, in Strasbourg
11:19:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:21:14 <omstefanov> s/Jamcatt/JIAMCATT/
11:24:08 <fsasaki> topic: distribute work on the three levels of communication discussed
11:24:46 <fsasaki> pedro: as a group we can split the work, e.g. 19 data categories - who can do what?
11:24:56 <fsasaki> .. in Dublin we discussed about training and consultancy
11:25:12 <fsasaki> .. there are people who can even make money with this
11:28:09 <fsasaki> http://www.w3devcampus.com/
11:29:40 <fsasaki> jirka: have some information in the HTML5 course to explain translate attribute etc.
11:29:53 <fsasaki> .. so that people who go to HTML5 course will see the info about ITS2
11:30:09 <fsasaki> .. in that way we can reach each participant of HTML5 course
11:30:21 <fsasaki> .. not sure if people would subscribe in multilingual web course
11:30:37 <fsasaki> .. we should try to approach widest audience possible
11:32:24 <fsasaki> pedro: about CMS etc.
11:32:29 <fsasaki> .. we have a flagship here: okapi
11:32:35 <fsasaki> .. we have to use the flagship
11:32:41 <fsasaki> .. another is drupal
11:32:46 <fsasaki> .. we have to push those
11:32:57 <fsasaki> .. in drupal now there are 77 downloads, that is not bad
11:33:26 <fsasaki> stephan: we have not got much feedback yet from the drupal community
11:33:30 <fsasaki> .. we try to push on that level
11:33:43 <fsasaki> .. from the general drupal community it is specialized
11:33:49 <fsasaki> .. that is there we have to work on
11:34:04 <fsasaki> jan: having a toolkit, SDK, for people to work with
11:34:20 <fsasaki> .. had a video of training - 70k plus views
11:34:34 <fsasaki> .. many people from various language communities
11:34:43 <fsasaki> .. a global community
11:35:15 <fsasaki> .. if I talk about their core dev platform, then make ITS2 part of it
11:35:21 <fsasaki> .. that is a good approach
11:35:28 <fsasaki> .. my community has been aware of XLIFF
11:35:57 <fsasaki> .. there is an opportunity with xliff 2 how it aligns with its2
11:36:09 <fsasaki> .. as a company there is this opportunity
11:36:25 <fsasaki> .. there is a lot of a good work, e.g. the EU web site
11:37:04 <fsasaki> .. my main goal: have the individual developers an easier life
11:37:13 <fsasaki> stephan: that comes back to translation tool developers
11:37:49 <fsasaki> jan: right