Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 02 November 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_2_-_November_2nd
Present
Eric Prud'hommeaux, Sandro Hawke, Raúl García Castro, Nandana Mihindukulasooriya, Richard Cyganiak, Steve Speicher, Bart van Leeuwen, Kevin Page, Alexandre Bertails, Arnaud Le Hors, Ashok Malhotra, Henry Story, Serena Villata, Olivier Berger, Antonis Loizou, Armin Haller, Steve Battle
Guests
Ivan Herman (W3C), Jonathan Dray, Fabien Gandon, Tim Berners-Lee, Norman Richter, Nathan Rixham, Melvin Carvalho
Remote
Yves Lafon, John Arwe, Andy Seaborne, Ted Thibodeau
Scribe
Kevin Page, Nandana Mihindukulasooriya, Raúl García Castro, Steve Speicher
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Make the containers in the spec be about Strong Composition, then accept proposals for how to do weak aggregation. And separate proposals for paging, etc. link
  2. Close ISSUE-25 link
  3. Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server link
  4. Work to get the UC&R document closer to what is found in docs like http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-use-cases/, moving other parts to Primer, Test Cases, spec analysis, etc. link
Topics
  1. Admin, Protocol

    The group should avoid bikeshedding, and the Chair will try to speed up discussion.

  2. WG Note on Access Control

    Discussion of the scope and format of this deliverable. The focus should be on UC&R for access control. Ashok will set up a wiki page.

  3. ISSUE-25 and ISSUE-7 — Containers, Composition, Aggregation

    Long discussion of (strong) composition versus (weak) aggregation. The group resolves that LDP containers are for strong aggregation. The question what exactly this means for deletion of containers remains unresolved. Various uses for weak aggregation, such as paging, ordering and linking/unlinking resources, are to be treated as separate issues. ACTIONs are taken to raise and refactor some issues accordingly. The group mostly rejects the idea that composition requires URIs to be in a hierarchy.

  4. Agenda Adjustments

  5. Timeline for Access Control Note

    A draft will be available by November 12th, and the WG has until November 26th to submit material for an initial draft.

  6. Client Implementations

    The group identifies different kinds of client implementation, and Sandro takes an action to start a public wiki page to collect implementations.

  7. Test Suite and Validator

    The group discusses Behaviour-Driven Development, EARL, the HTTP-in-RDF vocabulary, options for hosting a validator, and other aspects of testing and validation. Alexandre will set up a wiki page where proposals are to be collected; deadline for proposals is November 26th.

  8. LDP Implementations Wiki Page

    Sandro claims victory on his action to create an LDP Implementations wiki page.

  9. Use Cases and Requirements Document

    The group tries without much success to sort out the terminology around User Stories, Use Cases, Requirements and so on. Consensus is that the current UC&R draft is too detailed, and some material should be moved to Test Cases.

  10. Primer

    Discussion of purpose and audience of Primer. Olivier and SteveS agree to help move the Primer along and consider who wants to really drive/own it later.

  11. Deployment Guide

    Richard takes an action to set up a wiki page to collect deployment best practices and anti-patterns. Time permitting, this might become a WG Note.

  12. Wrap-up

<sandro> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group F2F1 (Day 2)
<sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_2_-_November_2nd
<sandro> Guest: Ivan Herman, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Jonathan Dray
<cygri> guest: Fabien Gandon
<cygri> guest: Tim (timbl) Berners-Lee
<cygri> guest: Norman Richter
<sandro> guest: Nathan (webr3) Rixham
<sandro> Guest: Melvin (melvster) Carvalho
<sandro> Present: Eric, Sandro, Raúl, Nandana, Cygri, Steves, Bart, Kevin, Alexandre, Arnaud, Ashok, Henry, Serena, Olivier, Antonis, Armin, SteveB
<sandro> Around the table: TimBL, Eric, Ivan, Sandro, Raúl, Nandana, Cygri, Steves, Bart, Kevin, Alexandre, Arnaud, Ashok, Henry, ?, Fabien, Serena, Olivier, Jonathan, Antonis, Armin, SteveB

Sandro Hawke: Around the table: TimBL, Eric, Ivan, Sandro, Raúl, Nandana, Cygri, Steves, Bart, Kevin, Alexandre, Arnaud, Ashok, Henry, ?, Fabien, Serena, Olivier, Jonathan, Antonis, Armin, SteveB

<sandro> Remote: Yves, Arwe, AndyS, macted
07:58:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc

07:58:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public

07:58:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP

07:58:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()2:30AM scheduled to start 88 minutes ago

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()2:30AM scheduled to start 88 minutes ago

07:58:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
07:58:23 <trackbot> Date: 02 November 2012
08:03:58 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone?

08:03:58 <Zakim> SW_LDP()2:30AM has not yet started, Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()2:30AM has not yet started, Arnaud

08:03:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see jonathandray, Zakim, RRSAgent, antonis, Arnaud, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, LeeF, trackbot, tpacbot, webr3, Yves, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see jonathandray, Zakim, RRSAgent, antonis, Arnaud, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, LeeF, trackbot, tpacbot, webr3, Yves, sandro, ericP

08:05:39 <sandro> Zakim, call Saint_Claire_3b

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, call Saint_Claire_3b

08:05:39 <Zakim> I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for Saint_Claire_3b

Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for Saint_Claire_3b

08:05:43 <sandro> Zakim, call SaintClaire_3b

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, call SaintClaire_3b

08:05:43 <Zakim> I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire_3b

Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire_3b

08:05:47 <sandro> Zakim, call SaintClaire3b

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, call SaintClaire3b

08:05:47 <Zakim> I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire3b

Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire3b

08:05:53 <sandro> Zakim, call SaintClaire3B

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, call SaintClaire3B

08:05:53 <Zakim> I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire3B

Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire3B

08:05:57 <sandro> Zakim, call Saint_Claire3B

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, call Saint_Claire3B

08:05:57 <Zakim> I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for Saint_Claire3B

Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for Saint_Claire3B

08:06:31 <sandro> zakim, call St_Clair_3B

Sandro Hawke: zakim, call St_Clair_3B

08:06:31 <Zakim> ok, sandro; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; the call is being made

08:06:32 <Zakim> SW_LDP()2:30AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()2:30AM has now started

08:06:33 <Zakim> +St_Clair_3B

Zakim IRC Bot: +St_Clair_3B

08:07:06 <Zakim> -St_Clair_3B

Zakim IRC Bot: -St_Clair_3B

08:07:07 <Zakim> SW_LDP()2:30AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()2:30AM has ended

08:07:07 <Zakim> Attendees were St_Clair_3B

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were St_Clair_3B

08:07:31 <sandro> zakim, call St_Clair_3B

Sandro Hawke: zakim, call St_Clair_3B

08:07:31 <Zakim> ok, sandro; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; the call is being made

08:07:32 <Zakim> SW_LDP()2:30AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()2:30AM has now started

08:07:32 <Zakim> +St_Clair_3B

Zakim IRC Bot: +St_Clair_3B

08:11:00 <cygri> scribe: krp

(Scribe set to Kevin Page)

08:11:00 <topic> topic: Admin, Protocol

1. Admin, Protocol

Summary: The group should avoid bikeshedding, and the Chair will try to speed up discussion.

08:11:46 <krp> Arnaud: added the primer to the agenda for this afternoon

Arnaud Le Hors: added the primer to the agenda for this afternoon

08:12:46 <krp> Arnaud: yesterday first f2f, ramping up, but feedback to try and speed up discussions

Arnaud Le Hors: yesterday first f2f, ramping up, but feedback to try and speed up discussions

08:13:26 <krp> ... status quo is the spec as is

... status quo is the spec as is

08:13:48 <krp> ... burden is on those who have issue with spec to explain what that is

... burden is on those who have issue with spec to explain what that is

08:14:29 <krp> ... discussion centred around: 1. what the problems is (ensuring everyone understands it) 2. how to solve it (proposals)

... discussion centred around: 1. what the problems is (ensuring everyone understands it) 2. how to solve it (proposals)

08:15:48 <krp> ... make sure we are talking about a specific problem and specific problem rather than debating in the round

... make sure we are talking about a specific problem and specific problem rather than debating in the round

08:15:49 <oberger> btw, http://bikeshed.org/ for those who don't know

Olivier Berger: btw, http://bikeshed.org/ for those who don't know

08:16:34 <krp> ... all exercise some self discipline... don't repeat what others have already say... remove yourself from queue if this happens... then we'll straw poll

... all exercise some self discipline... don't repeat what others have already say... remove yourself from queue if this happens... then we'll straw poll

08:16:45 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

08:17:13 <krp> oberger: we can only discuss issues where the person who raised it is present?

Olivier Berger: we can only discuss issues where the person who raised it is present?

08:18:02 <krp> arnaud: if no one present can defend the position we should just skip it. but e.g. yesterday others managed to represent the view

Arnaud Le Hors: if no one present can defend the position we should just skip it. but e.g. yesterday others managed to represent the view

08:18:10 <cygri> summary: The group should avoid bikeshedding, and the Chair will try to speed up discussion.
08:18:12 <krp> TOPIC: WG Note on Access Control

2. WG Note on Access Control

Summary: Discussion of the scope and format of this deliverable. The focus should be on UC&R for access control. Ashok will set up a wiki page.

08:18:20 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/charter

Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/charter

08:18:42 <sandro> " The Working Group will not produce a Recommendation specifying solutions for access control and authentication for Linked Data. However the Working Group may identify, based on a set of real world use cases, requirements for authentication and authorization technologies for use with Linked Data. " -- the charter

Sandro Hawke: " The Working Group will not produce a Recommendation specifying solutions for access control and authentication for Linked Data. However the Working Group may identify, based on a set of real world use cases, requirements for authentication and authorization technologies for use with Linked Data. " -- the charter

08:19:32 <krp> arnaud: when discussing charter two positions: shouldn't do access control as it's a bigger problem; or that how could we not consider the topic

Arnaud Le Hors: when discussing charter two positions: shouldn't do access control as it's a bigger problem; or that how could we not consider the topic

08:20:07 <krp> ... compromise in the charter: a note. Need to figure out what will be in it, who will be editors

... compromise in the charter: a note. Need to figure out what will be in it, who will be editors

08:20:14 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

08:20:18 <krp> ... we need to define what we want to do

... we need to define what we want to do

08:20:22 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

08:20:26 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

08:20:54 <krp> bblfish: identify those interested in distributed access control. I wish to implement this... who else?

Henry Story: identify those interested in distributed access control. I wish to implement this... who else?

08:21:12 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

08:21:28 <FabGandon> Present+FabGandon

Fabien Gandon: Present+FabGandon

08:21:56 <SteveBattle> q+

Steve Battle: q+

08:21:59 <sandro> q+ to talk about W3C member-access as a user story

Sandro Hawke: q+ to talk about W3C member-access as a user story

08:22:23 <Arnaud> ack steveb

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb

08:22:23 <krp> betehess: first access control, then distributed access control. Need to split the issues. Identity, authorisation. Don't want to do anything on auth?

Alexandre Bertails: first access control, then distributed access control. Need to split the issues. Identity, authorisation. Don't want to do anything on auth?

08:22:36 <sandro> betehess, I think this is 100% about authorization

Sandro Hawke: betehess, I think this is 100% about authorization

08:22:44 <krp> stevebattle: is there anything in the spec incompatible with ACLs etc.?

Steve Battle: is there anything in the spec incompatible with ACLs etc.?

08:22:44 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+

Ashok Malhotra: q+

08:22:49 <bblfish> here is an interesting thing: http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl

Henry Story: here is an interesting thing: http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl

08:22:58 <nmihindu> present+ Nandana_Mihindukulasooriya

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: present+ Nandana_Mihindukulasooriya

08:23:10 <Arnaud> ack sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro

08:23:10 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about W3C member-access as a user story

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about W3C member-access as a user story

08:23:12 <bblfish> that is what betehess means by WebACL

Henry Story: that is what betehess means by WebACL

08:23:19 <BartvanLeeuwen> present+ BartvanLeeuwen

Bart van Leeuwen: present+ BartvanLeeuwen

08:23:23 <krp> betehess: so far nothing in spec. For WebACL just need to provide ontologies.

Alexandre Bertails: so far nothing in spec. For WebACL just need to provide ontologies.

08:23:41 <antonis> present+ AntonisLoizou

Antonis Loizou: present+ AntonisLoizou

08:23:54 <rgarcia> present+ Raul_Garcia-Castro

Raúl García Castro: present+ Raul_Garcia-Castro

08:24:10 <bblfish> +1 there is a requirement for a distributed authentication

Henry Story: +1 there is a requirement for a distributed authentication

08:24:14 <krp> sandro: W3C member access control... get to say employees of members to access parts of W3C site... this could be use case for LDP, delegating the access to member orgs

Sandro Hawke: W3C member access control... get to say employees of members to access parts of W3C site... this could be use case for LDP, delegating the access to member orgs

08:24:14 <oberger> sandro, would you add it to the UCR ?

Olivier Berger: sandro, would you add it to the UCR ?

08:24:16 <svillata> present+ Serena Villata

Serena Villata: present+ Serena Villata

08:24:18 <Arnaud> ack ashok

Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok

08:24:18 <jonathandray> present+ Jonathan_Dray

Jonathan Dray: present+ Jonathan_Dray

08:24:22 <betehess> sandro, that use-case is definitely what people call "decentralized" here

Alexandre Bertails: sandro, that use-case is definitely what people call "decentralized" here

08:24:29 <oberger> present+Olivier_Berger

Olivier Berger: present+Olivier_Berger

08:24:37 <SteveS> present+ Steve_Speicher

Steve Speicher: present+ Steve_Speicher

08:24:39 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

08:24:40 <oberger> present+ Olivier_Berger

Olivier Berger: present+ Olivier_Berger

08:24:45 <cygri> present+ Richard Cyganiak

Richard Cyganiak: present+ Richard Cyganiak

08:25:09 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

08:25:11 <sandro> present+ Sandro Hawke

Sandro Hawke: present+ Sandro Hawke

08:25:17 <SteveS> sandro, good use case should it be added to issue tracker or in minutes enough?

Steve Speicher: sandro, good use case should it be added to issue tracker or in minutes enough?

08:25:18 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

08:25:22 <betehess> present+ Alexandre_Bertails

Alexandre Bertails: present+ Alexandre_Bertails

08:25:39 <krp> ashok: typically access control is based on underlying storage engine. I can help edit.

Ashok Malhotra: typically access control is based on underlying storage engine. I can help edit.

08:25:54 <svillata> q?

Serena Villata: q?

08:26:27 <sandro> q+ to ask about possible requirement -- do resources have different representations for different-access users?

Sandro Hawke: q+ to ask about possible requirement -- do resources have different representations for different-access users?

08:26:27 <oberger> q+

Olivier Berger: q+

08:26:30 <krp> bblfish: at the RESTful layer need to expose the metadata... the ACLs for a file... the identity needs to be global for an LDP system that is global and interoperable, automatically distributing

Henry Story: at the RESTful layer need to expose the metadata... the ACLs for a file... the identity needs to be global for an LDP system that is global and interoperable, automatically distributing

08:26:36 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

08:26:42 <betehess> http://presbrey.mit.edu/

Alexandre Bertails: http://presbrey.mit.edu/

08:27:12 <bblfish> presbrey built http://data.fm/

Henry Story: presbrey built http://data.fm/

08:27:22 <krp> betehess: let's be concrete (see link)... first implementation of linked data server... let's start by reviewing this

Alexandre Bertails: let's be concrete (see link)... first implementation of linked data server... let's start by reviewing this

08:27:45 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

08:27:48 <Zakim> +Yves

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yves

08:28:17 <Arnaud> ack sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro

08:28:17 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about possible requirement -- do resources have different representations for different-access users?

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to ask about possible requirement -- do resources have different representations for different-access users?

08:28:33 <krp> arnaud: to clarify, we're not going to develop a spec that solves this problem. but want to know what people think. create a wiki page for this to develop the ucr for this.

Arnaud Le Hors: to clarify, we're not going to develop a spec that solves this problem. but want to know what people think. create a wiki page for this to develop the ucr for this.

08:29:30 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

08:29:31 <krp> sandro: do you want to get different triples dependent on who you are identified as? Is there consensus to this approach? Can we clarify when this is reasonable to do?

Sandro Hawke: do you want to get different triples dependent on who you are identified as? Is there consensus to this approach? Can we clarify when this is reasonable to do?

08:29:44 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

08:29:48 <krp> oberger: are people interested in oauth? is there anything to say about it?

Olivier Berger: are people interested in oauth? is there anything to say about it?

08:29:58 <betehess> q+ to comment on other technologies

Alexandre Bertails: q+ to comment on other technologies

08:30:05 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

08:30:07 <krp> ... it can delegate tokens to applications to do things on you behalf

... it can delegate tokens to applications to do things on you behalf

08:30:48 <oberger> oberger: interesting use case : delegating "tokens" to apps to act on your behalf, in oauth

Olivier Berger: interesting use case : delegating "tokens" to apps to act on your behalf, in oauth [ Scribe Assist by Olivier Berger ]

08:31:06 <krp> cygri: as someone who would like a ready-made solution that I'd like to take of the shelf... most useful in the note for me would be use case and requirements

Richard Cyganiak: as someone who would like a ready-made solution that I'd like to take of the shelf... most useful in the note for me would be use case and requirements

08:31:25 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

08:31:49 <oberger> sandro, I think the point you raised is interesting to the group indeed

Olivier Berger: sandro, I think the point you raised is interesting to the group indeed

08:31:54 <krp> ... vs. we can't recommend particular tech anyway, so a laundry list of different technologies doesn't seem to be what we're chartered to do

... vs. we can't recommend particular tech anyway, so a laundry list of different technologies doesn't seem to be what we're chartered to do

08:31:55 <bblfish> Cygri, is right. 0ne does not need to list all the technologies up. There are parts that remain open.

Henry Story: Cygri, is right. 0ne does not need to list all the technologies up. There are parts that remain open.

08:32:11 <oberger> sandro, worth an issue ?

Olivier Berger: sandro, worth an issue ?

08:32:25 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

08:32:25 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to comment on other technologies

Zakim IRC Bot: betehess, you wanted to comment on other technologies

08:32:34 <krp> arnaud: per the charter, it ought to be ucr. however, if there are those in the group who are interested, don't want to stop that... as long as it doesn't get in the way of the ucr

Arnaud Le Hors: per the charter, it ought to be ucr. however, if there are those in the group who are interested, don't want to stop that... as long as it doesn't get in the way of the ucr

08:33:43 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

08:34:02 <krp> betehess: if you tell people the note will just be about listing stuff it will be a waste of time... so maybe better not to make a note? what happens if someone comes with a specific proposal, do we turn away?

Alexandre Bertails: if you tell people the note will just be about listing stuff it will be a waste of time... so maybe better not to make a note? what happens if someone comes with a specific proposal, do we turn away?

08:34:15 <krp> arnaud: not here to revisit charter

Arnaud Le Hors: not here to revisit charter

08:34:37 <krp> ... the question is not whether we should do it (the note)

... the question is not whether we should do it (the note)

08:34:47 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+

Bart van Leeuwen: q+

08:35:25 <betehess> does "Deliverables - Not Recommendation Track" even mean that we need to deliver a NOTE? whyh not just a wiki page?

Alexandre Bertails: does "Deliverables - Not Recommendation Track" even mean that we need to deliver a NOTE? whyh not just a wiki page?

08:35:32 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

08:35:38 <oberger> betehess, it's too soon to discuss that IMHO

Olivier Berger: betehess, it's too soon to discuss that IMHO

08:35:55 <oberger> let's see UC and needs of the group more explicited

Olivier Berger: let's see UC and needs of the group more explicited

08:35:57 <krp> ... but implementers need to know how to solve this... see this as a starting point to define the problem... leading to solutions and maybe, eventually, a later process for a recommendation

... but implementers need to know how to solve this... see this as a starting point to define the problem... leading to solutions and maybe, eventually, a later process for a recommendation

08:36:04 <cygri> betehess, oberger, the charter clearly says "Working Group Note on Use Cases and Requirements for access control and authentication mechanisms needed for this work."

Richard Cyganiak: betehess, oberger, the charter clearly says "Working Group Note on Use Cases and Requirements for access control and authentication mechanisms needed for this work."

08:36:20 <oberger> cygri, ack

Olivier Berger: cygri, ack

08:36:32 <cygri> betehess, oberger, whether that's a good thing or not, i don't know :-)

Richard Cyganiak: betehess, oberger, whether that's a good thing or not, i don't know :-)

08:36:47 <oberger> cygri, we'll see while doing

Olivier Berger: cygri, we'll see while doing

08:37:00 <betehess> cygri, yeah, just saw that (I wasn't the one who added that in the charter :-)

Alexandre Bertails: cygri, yeah, just saw that (I wasn't the one who added that in the charter :-)

08:37:01 <Arnaud> ack bart

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bart

08:37:06 <krp> bblfish: in order to test interop we'll need to have something there. but don't need to fully dive into the "identity pit hole of hell" to do this. but we need to have something there to get acceptance from gov etc.

Henry Story: in order to test interop we'll need to have something there. but don't need to fully dive into the "identity pit hole of hell" to do this. but we need to have something there to get acceptance from gov etc.

08:37:50 <SteveS> q+

Steve Speicher: q+

08:38:18 <krp> bart: discussing things that potentially could go wrong with spec. why don't we have implementers trying this to find the problems? does this make it easier to spot the issues rather than discussing all possible issues

Bart van Leeuwen: discussing things that potentially could go wrong with spec. why don't we have implementers trying this to find the problems? does this make it easier to spot the issues rather than discussing all possible issues

08:38:18 <Arnaud> ack steves

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves

08:38:42 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

08:39:05 <krp> steves: not sure what we need to standardise to grant access to individuals, we can do that today in several different ways, do we need to standardise?

Steve Speicher: not sure what we need to standardise to grant access to individuals, we can do that today in several different ways, do we need to standardise?

08:39:07 <cygri> SteveS++

Richard Cyganiak: SteveS++

08:39:17 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

08:39:20 <timbl_> RRSAgent, pointer?

Tim Berners-Lee: RRSAgent, pointer?

08:39:20 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc#T08-39-20

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc#T08-39-20

08:39:21 <krp> ... seems like we should get the wiki page up to start getting input

... seems like we should get the wiki page up to start getting input

08:40:26 <krp> betehess: for many people the success of ldp will be including some standardisation for problems like access control so that it comes with ldp

Alexandre Bertails: for many people the success of ldp will be including some standardisation for problems like access control so that it comes with ldp

08:40:54 <krp> steves: not saying isn't useful to standardise

Steve Speicher: not saying isn't useful to standardise

08:41:13 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

08:41:15 <timbl_> q+ to suggest that the art of launching th system is about both having a clean consistent vision and also connecting it to th existing things people are now using.

Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to suggest that the art of launching th system is about both having a clean consistent vision and also connecting it to th existing things people are now using.

08:41:21 <krp> arnaud: whole point of note is to gather this information: what to you need from access control?

Arnaud Le Hors: whole point of note is to gather this information: what to you need from access control?

08:41:28 <Arnaud> ack timbl

Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl

08:41:28 <Zakim> timbl_, you wanted to suggest that the art of launching th system is about both having a clean consistent vision and also connecting it to th existing things people are now using.

Zakim IRC Bot: timbl_, you wanted to suggest that the art of launching th system is about both having a clean consistent vision and also connecting it to th existing things people are now using.

08:42:42 <bblfish> Arnaud: note is a way to gather information together about what people would like to do

Arnaud Le Hors: note is a way to gather information together about what people would like to do [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ]

08:42:46 <krp> timbl: to get system off the ground needs clear consistent system, but also bringing in those who are tied into existing systems so they will accept  future solution. in ideal world finding a clear conversion from existing sys to rdf would be nice.

Tim Berners-Lee: to get system off the ground needs clear consistent system, but also bringing in those who are tied into existing systems so they will accept future solution. in ideal world finding a clear conversion from existing sys to rdf would be nice.

08:43:40 <SteveS> Think access control is important to success of LDP in long term, just not sure a minimal requirement….impls will impose access restrictions regardless of what we say

Steve Speicher: Think access control is important to success of LDP in long term, just not sure a minimal requirement….impls will impose access restrictions regardless of what we say

08:43:56 <krp> arnaud: ashok to create and structure wiki page to gather use cases and requirements

Arnaud Le Hors: ashok to create and structure wiki page to gather use cases and requirements

08:44:04 <cygri> ACTION: Ashok to set up wiki page on Access Control

ACTION: Ashok to set up wiki page on Access Control

08:44:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Set up wiki page on Access Control [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2012-11-09].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-21 - Set up wiki page on Access Control [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2012-11-09].

08:44:23 <bblfish> +1

Henry Story: +1

08:44:25 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

08:44:26 <krp> ... everyone add your ucr, please check whether there's already something there... modify/add rather than duplicate

... everyone add your ucr, please check whether there's already something there... modify/add rather than duplicate

08:44:27 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

08:44:30 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

08:44:43 <ericP> Ashok_Malhotra, i already started by dropping an example into http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/AccessControl

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Ashok_Malhotra, i already started by dropping an example into http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/AccessControl

08:44:46 <krp> ... a reasonable approach?

... a reasonable approach?

08:45:05 <ericP> i can continue with a couple others

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i can continue with a couple others

08:45:19 <krp> ... I think that's all we need to do on this today

... I think that's all we need to do on this today

08:45:55 <timbl_> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl

Tim Berners-Lee: http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl

08:46:17 <krp> ericP: already have a starting page in place http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl

Eric Prud'hommeaux: already have a starting page in place http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl

08:46:38 <oberger> ericP, could you explicit the syntax of the example ?

Olivier Berger: ericP, could you explicit the syntax of the example ?

08:47:17 <krp> ashok: what does this syntax mean?

Ashok Malhotra: what does this syntax mean?

08:47:32 <krp> arnaud: eric, could you give more explanation of this example?

Arnaud Le Hors: eric, could you give more explanation of this example?

08:49:00 <krp> arnaud: call for which issues to discuss and defend

Arnaud Le Hors: call for which issues to discuss and defend

08:49:00 <cygri> summary: Discussion of the scope and format of this deliverable. The focus should be on UC&R for access control. Ashok will set up a wiki page.
08:49:14 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

08:49:18 <krp> TOPIC: ISSUE-25 and ISSUE-7 — Containers, Composition, Aggregation

3. ISSUE-25 and ISSUE-7 — Containers, Composition, Aggregation

Summary: Long discussion of (strong) composition versus (weak) aggregation. The group resolves that LDP containers are for strong aggregation. The question what exactly this means for deletion of containers remains unresolved. Various uses for weak aggregation, such as paging, ordering and linking/unlinking resources, are to be treated as separate issues. ACTIONs are taken to raise and refactor some issues accordingly. The group mostly rejects the idea that composition requires URIs to be in a hierarchy.

08:49:31 <bblfish> Issue-25?

Henry Story: ISSUE-25?

08:49:31 <trackbot> ISSUE-25 -- Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-25 -- Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers -- open

08:49:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/25

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/25

08:49:43 <cygri> q-

Richard Cyganiak: q-

08:51:12 <krp> stevebattle: ldp spec introduces issue of containers. when you think about these you'd normally consider the strength of these. aggregation is weak with a focus on membership, composition is stronger and considers the lifecycle e.g. deleting resource when container is deleted

Steve Battle: ldp spec introduces issue of containers. when you think about these you'd normally consider the strength of these. aggregation is weak with a focus on membership, composition is stronger and considers the lifecycle e.g. deleting resource when container is deleted

08:52:12 <krp> oberger: addition of something to container would be a good subject to consider this

Olivier Berger: addition of something to container would be a good subject to consider this

08:52:25 <krp> arnaud: Steve, do you have a proposal as how to modify spec?

Arnaud Le Hors: Steve, do you have a proposal as how to modify spec?

08:53:01 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+

Ashok Malhotra: q+

08:53:05 <SteveS> q+

Steve Speicher: q+

08:53:07 <krp> stevebattle: proposal is to use hierarchical URIs to represent containment

Steve Battle: proposal is to use hierarchical URIs to represent containment

08:53:24 <oberger> q+

Olivier Berger: q+

08:54:26 <krp> arnaud: aggregation vs. composition, but the spec isn't clear? do you want it to do one or the other?

Arnaud Le Hors: aggregation vs. composition, but the spec isn't clear? do you want it to do one or the other?

08:54:49 <krp> stevebattle: to do both but be clear when it is doing which

Steve Battle: to do both but be clear when it is doing which

08:55:46 <krp> q+

q+

08:55:57 <Arnaud> ack ashok

Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok

08:55:58 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

08:56:13 <Arnaud> ack steves

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves

08:56:27 <krp> ashok: when you add a container to a container is it hierarchical?

Ashok Malhotra: when you add a container to a container is it hierarchical?

08:56:31 <krp> stevebattle: yes

Steve Battle: yes

08:57:44 <krp> steves: not sure how the uri structure is related to containment, not sure the spec should specify uri structure.

Steve Speicher: not sure how the uri structure is related to containment, not sure the spec should specify uri structure.

08:57:48 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

08:58:00 <cygri> SteveBattle, please phrase a proposal on IRC

Richard Cyganiak: SteveBattle, please phrase a proposal on IRC

08:58:00 <bblfish> but the solution seems simple to me: why not just have a class of containers that seperates the two cases ?

Henry Story: but the solution seems simple to me: why not just have a class of containers that seperates the two cases ?

08:58:37 <bblfish> -1 for adding new verbs, only a last resort

Henry Story: -1 for adding new verbs, only a last resort

08:58:45 <krp> oberger: not entirely clear what a container is in terms of semantics. we need to define what actions we can perform on containers, then map to GET/PUT/POST/DELETE

Olivier Berger: not entirely clear what a container is in terms of semantics. we need to define what actions we can perform on containers, then map to GET/PUT/POST/DELETE

08:58:50 <sandro> so POST might be CREATE + ADD-TO-CONTAINER ?

Sandro Hawke: so POST might be CREATE + ADD-TO-CONTAINER ?

08:59:23 <SteveBattle> a single container might support both aggregation and composition so I'm not sure we can do it by container type.

Steve Battle: a single container might support both aggregation and composition so I'm not sure we can do it by container type.

08:59:34 <ericP> q+ to resolve issue-25 adding a Container property called "deletesMembers" which applies regardless of the URI structure

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to resolve ISSUE-25 adding a Container property called "deletesMembers" which applies regardless of the URI structure

08:59:34 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

09:00:11 <Arnaud> ack krp

Arnaud Le Hors: ack krp

09:00:14 <sandro> krp: I'm a little confused about the proposal.   You want the client to understand whether it's containment?

Kevin Page: I'm a little confused about the proposal. You want the client to understand whether it's containment? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:01:29 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q-

09:01:57 <cygri> PROPOSAL: DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else.

PROPOSED: DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else.

09:02:05 <timbl_> q?

Tim Berners-Lee: q?

09:02:17 <sandro> Arnaud: I'm hearing people want to know what the server is going to do when a container is deleted, as far as deleting the contained resources.

Arnaud Le Hors: I'm hearing people want to know what the server is going to do when a container is deleted, as far as deleting the contained resources. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:02:21 <antonis> q+

Antonis Loizou: q+

09:02:27 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

09:02:28 <timbl_> Thius syetm must have rigidly defined and simple semantics. Think unix file syetm.

Tim Berners-Lee: Thius syetm must have rigidly defined and simple semantics. Think unix file syetm.

09:02:35 <SteveBattle> q+

Steve Battle: q+

09:02:39 <oberger> q+

Olivier Berger: q+

09:02:52 <timbl_> q+

Tim Berners-Lee: q+

09:02:52 <krp> bblfish: proposal to have two type of containers specified

Henry Story: proposal to have two type of containers specified

09:02:52 <antonis> q-

Antonis Loizou: q-

09:03:19 <sandro> bblfish: I propose to rdf:types of containers.   One type deletes its contained resources when it's deleted; the other type does not.

Henry Story: I propose two rdf:types of containers. One type deletes its contained resources when it's deleted; the other type does not. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:03:27 <sandro> +1 I rather like that.

Sandro Hawke: +1 I rather like that.

09:03:35 <SteveBattle> I like cygri's wording - very concise.

Steve Battle: I like cygri's wording - very concise.

09:03:37 <nmihindu> q+

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: q+

09:03:39 <sandro> s/to r/two r/
09:03:46 <krp> ... so when client does a GET it knows whether it's an aggregation or container and what the behaviour is when DELETE

... so when client does a GET it knows whether it's an aggregation or container and what the behaviour is when DELETE

09:04:00 <cygri> SteveBattle, note, not intended to be spec text, just a design to be turned into spec text by the editor

Richard Cyganiak: SteveBattle, note, not intended to be spec text, just a design to be turned into spec text by the editor

09:04:36 <rgarcia> q+ to say why don't we define two membership properties, one for weak and another for strong aggregation

Raúl García Castro: q+ to say why don't we define two membership properties, one for weak and another for strong aggregation

09:05:05 <krp> oberger: do the different types map to the two examples in the spec

Olivier Berger: do the different types map to the two examples in the spec

09:05:07 <SteveS> Like what cygri, though instead requiring uri hierarchy structure why not say something like "and any resources managed by the same server as the container"

Steve Speicher: Like what cygri, though instead requiring uri hierarchy structure why not say something like "and any resources managed by the same server as the container"

09:05:20 <ericP> rgarcia, i've typed a proposal like that at 9:59:34

Eric Prud'hommeaux: rgarcia, i've typed a proposal like that at 9:59:34

09:05:25 <oberger> q-

Olivier Berger: q-

09:05:27 <Arnaud> ack eric

Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric

09:05:27 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to resolve issue-25 adding a Container property called "deletesMembers" which applies regardless of the URI structure

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to resolve ISSUE-25 adding a Container property called "deletesMembers" which applies regardless of the URI structure

09:06:18 <bblfish> agree that I don't think that speaking of URL hierachies is useful

Henry Story: agree I don't think that speaking of URL hierachies is useful

09:06:50 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+

Bart van Leeuwen: q+

09:06:56 <krp> if URL hierarchies are useful, it is only for implementation on the server (where to me it doesn't seem useful, but hey)

if URL hierarchies are useful, it is only for implementation on the server (where to me it doesn't seem useful, but hey)

09:06:56 <bblfish> s/that I/I/
09:07:07 <Arnaud> ack steveb

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb

09:07:11 <krp> it is not a sufficient mechanism to inform the client

it is not a sufficient mechanism to inform the client

09:07:33 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+

Ashok Malhotra: q+

09:08:07 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

09:08:09 <Arnaud> ack timbl

Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl

09:08:12 <krp> stevebattle: don't believe the typing proposal works... can't add same resources to multiple containers but can to aggregations

Steve Battle: don't believe the typing proposal works... can't add same resources to multiple containers but can to aggregations

09:08:35 <ericP> what if we just give up on DELETE delting any members? any use cases which motivate this complexity?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: what if we just give up on DELETE delting any members? any use cases which motivate this complexity?

09:09:45 <Ashok_Malhotra> q-

Ashok Malhotra: q-

09:10:11 <krp> timbl: don't agree that we can make it a general case, sets and lists are different. containment seems like a clear implementation to a filesystem structure and how a service is likely to be implemented

Tim Berners-Lee: don't agree that we can make it a general case, sets and lists are different. containment seems like a clear implementation to a filesystem structure and how a service is likely to be implemented

09:10:40 <krp> ... so group should focus on containers. other forms of aggregation are described by a number of different ontologies.

... so group should focus on containers. other forms of aggregation are described by a number of different ontologies.

09:11:04 <cygri> PROPOSAL: DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else.

PROPOSED: DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else.

09:11:42 <timbl_>  Clarification: Does the URI path match the containership at all times?

Tim Berners-Lee: Clarification: Does the URI path match the containership at all times?

09:12:04 <Arnaud> ack nmihindu

Arnaud Le Hors: ack nmihindu

09:12:09 <SteveS> q+

Steve Speicher: q+

09:12:10 <krp>  clarification: can there be any members *not* under the path hierarchy?

clarification: can there be any members *not* under the path hierarchy?

09:12:31 <SteveBattle> Ah, cygri, your definition says nothing about the URIs created in POST.

Steve Battle: Ah, cygri, your definition says nothing about the URIs created in POST.

09:12:54 <BartvanLeeuwen> q-

Bart van Leeuwen: q-

09:12:54 <Arnaud> ack rgarcia

Arnaud Le Hors: ack rgarcia

09:12:55 <cygri> SteveBattle, do you want to rephrase it?

Richard Cyganiak: SteveBattle, do you want to rephrase it?

09:12:56 <Zakim> rgarcia, you wanted to say why don't we define two membership properties, one for weak and another for strong aggregation

Zakim IRC Bot: rgarcia, you wanted to say why don't we define two membership properties, one for weak and another for strong aggregation

09:13:37 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

09:14:09 <krp> rgarcia: define two membership properties

Raúl García Castro: define two membership properties

09:14:10 <timbl_> PROPOSAL: The group drop discussion of the aggregation model as that does not require mutual understanding between client and server, only between client and client.

PROPOSED: The group drop discussion of the aggregation model as that does not require mutual understanding between client and server, only between client and client.

09:14:39 <SteveBattle> "DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else. POST on a container creates a new resource URI hierarchically below the container."

Steve Battle: "DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else. POST on a container creates a new resource URI hierarchically below the container."

09:14:47 <bblfish> we forgot timbls proposal: the container of the spec is/(should be?) the agregation type of container with the propoerty that if you delete it you delete all sub-resources, managed by that server. Weak agregation could be done using other ontologies by just publishing information in an rdf resource

Henry Story: we forgot timbls proposal: the container of the spec is/(should be?) the agregation type of container with the propoerty that if you delete it you delete all sub-resources, managed by that server. Weak agregation could be done using other ontologies by just publishing information in an rdf resource

09:14:53 <krp> cygri: spec allows domain specific subclassing and this will quickly get complicated with two properties

Richard Cyganiak: spec allows domain specific subclassing and this will quickly get complicated with two properties

09:15:21 <antonis>  ldp:compositionPredicate rdfs:subClassOf ldp:memberhiPredicate . ldp:aggregationPredicate rdfs:subClassOf ldp:memberhiPredicate .

Antonis Loizou: ldp:compositionPredicate rdfs:subPropertyOf ldp:memberhiPredicate . ldp:aggregationPredicate rdfs:subPropertyOf ldp:memberhiPredicate .

09:15:28 <krp> .. do need to support both cases (strong and weak aggregation). container as designed seems to be about strong

.. do need to support both cases (strong and weak aggregation). container as designed seems to be about strong

09:15:28 <antonis> ?

Antonis Loizou: ?

09:15:33 <rgarcia> q+ to say that if we don't have both membership properties then we are forcing that domain-specific membership properties are always weak aggregation ones

Raúl García Castro: q+ to say that if we don't have both membership properties then we are forcing that domain-specific membership properties are always weak aggregation ones

09:16:03 <SteveBattle> Ughh- that's going to get ugly PRETTY quickly (ld composition predicates)

Steve Battle: Ughh- that's going to get ugly PRETTY quickly (ld composition predicates)

09:16:04 <bblfish> +1 for how to do weak agregation sounds good.

Henry Story: +1 for how to do weak agregation sounds good.

09:16:22 <krp> ... but we need to be clear how to do weak aggregation

... but we need to be clear how to do weak aggregation

09:16:32 <betehess> can somebody gives a use-case for weak-aggregation?

Alexandre Bertails: can somebody gives a use-case for weak-aggregation?

09:16:38 <timbl_> q+ to suggest that the group separate out into separate sections of the document the client-server protocol (includes containers, ACL) and the client-client protocol (data types, preferred vocabulary, aggregation membership).

Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to suggest that the group separate out into separate sections of the document the client-server protocol (includes containers, ACL) and the client-client protocol (data types, preferred vocabulary, aggregation membership).

09:17:02 <antonis> s/rdfs:subClassOf/rdfs:subPropertyOf/
09:17:11 <ericP> lastlog propos

Eric Prud'hommeaux: lastlog propos

09:17:15 <timbl_> q?

Tim Berners-Lee: q?

09:17:21 <krp> oberger: we need to decide which way container is, and whether we need the other

Olivier Berger: we need to decide which way container is, and whether we need the other

09:17:34 <Arnaud> ack steves

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves

09:17:36 <SteveBattle> q+

Steve Battle: q+

09:18:35 <cygri> oberger++

Richard Cyganiak: oberger++

09:18:36 <krp> steves: say that instead of a hierarchy of uris say a resource  hierarchy managed by that server

Steve Speicher: say that instead of a hierarchy of uris say a resource hierarchy managed by that server

09:19:51 <Arnaud> ack timbl

Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl

09:19:51 <Zakim> timbl_, you wanted to suggest that the group separate out into separate sections of the document the client-server protocol (includes containers, ACL) and the client-client

Zakim IRC Bot: timbl_, you wanted to suggest that the group separate out into separate sections of the document the client-server protocol (includes containers, ACL) and the client-client

09:19:54 <Zakim> ... protocol (data types, preferred vocabulary, aggregation membership).

Zakim IRC Bot: ... protocol (data types, preferred vocabulary, aggregation membership).

09:21:16 <krp> timbl: separate client-client protocol from client-server. allow clients to build new kinds of structure and the server doesn't need to be away. server needs to be aware of things like managing the stored resources and backing to (file)storage

Tim Berners-Lee: separate client-client protocol from client-server. allow clients to build new kinds of structure and the server doesn't need to be away. server needs to be aware of things like managing the stored resources and backing to (file)storage

09:21:29 <krp> ... go through spec and consider "does the server need to be aware of this"

... go through spec and consider "does the server need to be aware of this"

09:22:05 <Arnaud> ack rgarcia

Arnaud Le Hors: ack rgarcia

09:22:05 <Zakim> rgarcia, you wanted to say that if we don't have both membership properties then we are forcing that domain-specific membership properties are always weak aggregation ones

Zakim IRC Bot: rgarcia, you wanted to say that if we don't have both membership properties then we are forcing that domain-specific membership properties are always weak aggregation ones

09:22:38 <cygri> PROPOSAL: We need containers for both composition and aggregation. Container-created resources is composition. �It's good practice but not required that URI hierarchy match composition.

PROPOSED: We need containers for both composition and aggregation. Container-created resources is composition. �It's good practice but not required that URI hierarchy match composition.

09:23:23 <FabGandon> ack SteveBattle

Fabien Gandon: ack SteveBattle

09:23:42 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

09:24:01 <krp> stevebattle: Tim is correct, the LDP is primarily about containment. but we do need aggregation.

Steve Battle: Tim is correct, the LDP is primarily about containment. but we do need aggregation.

09:24:26 <SteveS> +1 to cygri 10:22 proposal

Steve Speicher: +1 to cygri 10:22 proposal

09:24:32 <timbl_> q+ to point out hierarchical URIs connect with WebDav and also give locality of reference with relative URIs.

Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to point out hierarchical URIs connect with WebDav and also give locality of reference with relative URIs.

09:24:35 <oberger> q+ to know why rdfs:Container isn't reused

Olivier Berger: q+ to know why rdfs:Container isn't reused

09:24:35 <krp> ... other precedents for hierarchical URIs

... other precedents for hierarchical URIs

09:25:00 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

09:25:01 <SteveBattle> I'd still prefer the use of hierarchical URIs.

Steve Battle: I'd still prefer the use of hierarchical URIs.

09:25:23 <SteveS> oberger, could also look at skos:Collection as the type to indicate aggregation

Steve Speicher: oberger, could also look at skos:Collection as the type to indicate aggregation

09:25:34 <Arnaud> ack timbl

Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl

09:25:34 <Zakim> timbl_, you wanted to point out hierarchical URIs connect with WebDav and also give locality of reference with relative URIs.

Zakim IRC Bot: timbl_, you wanted to point out hierarchical URIs connect with WebDav and also give locality of reference with relative URIs.

09:25:37 <sandro> I have a hard time imagining it's okay to delete /foo and still have /foo/bar exist.

Sandro Hawke: I have a hard time imagining it's okay to delete /foo and still have /foo/bar exist.

09:25:53 <SteveBattle> TOTALLY agree

Steve Battle: TOTALLY agree

09:26:21 <ahaller2> sandro++

Armin Haller: sandro++

09:26:54 <Yves> +1 to sandro

Yves Lafon: +1 to sandro

09:27:19 <betehess> agree with tim, we're conflating different problems and solutions here

Alexandre Bertails: agree with tim, we're conflating different problems and solutions here

09:27:26 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

09:27:30 <sandro> +1 timbl: paging large agregates is something you need with any kind of large RDF Graph

Sandro Hawke: +1 timbl: paging large agregates is something you need with any kind of large RDF Graph

09:28:08 <krp> cygri: consider a container with a common relationship to lots of resources, which the container has not control over, but facilities such as paging are still useful

Richard Cyganiak: consider a container with a common relationship to lots of resources, which the container has not control over, but facilities such as paging are still useful

09:28:10 <SteveBattle> paging is currently tied to the aggregation - I think that's right.

Steve Battle: paging is currently tied to the aggregation - I think that's right.

09:28:13 <Yves> a POST on a container /foo MAY create  multiple resources under /foo, DELETE on a container /foo MUST delete all its underlying resources

Yves Lafon: a POST on a container /foo MAY create multiple resources under /foo, DELETE on a container /foo MUST delete all its underlying resources

09:28:26 <krp> timbl: that sounds like an RDF graph. can we not have paging on all RDF graphs?

Tim Berners-Lee: that sounds like an RDF graph. can we not have paging on all RDF graphs?

09:28:43 <bblfish> +1 to follow up on looking at separating paging more clearly

Henry Story: +1 to follow up on looking at separating paging more clearly

09:28:50 <betehess> Yves: that's an analysis or a proposal?

Yves Lafon: that's an analysis or a proposal? [ Scribe Assist by Alexandre Bertails ]

09:28:51 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

09:28:51 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to know why rdfs:Container isn't reused

Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to know why rdfs:Container isn't reused

09:28:55 <cygri> cygri: we call it "container" even though it's really a controller for a subject-predicate pair

Richard Cyganiak: we call it "container" even though it's really a controller for a subject-predicate pair [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ]

09:29:11 <Yves> betehess, an analysis of what people seems to want

Yves Lafon: betehess, an analysis of what people seems to want

09:29:14 <krp> oberger: proposed to use rdfs:member, but I also see rdfs: container

Olivier Berger: proposed to use rdfs:member, but I also see rdfs: container

09:29:23 <timbl_> PROPOSAL: the paging functionality be applied to any subject for any property, and that be separated in the spec from containment, and it apply to containment as a example with no further design.

PROPOSED: the paging functionality be applied to any subject for any property, and that be separated in the spec from containment, and it apply to containment as a example with no further design.

09:29:33 <Yves> and it seems logical too ;)

Yves Lafon: and it seems logical too ;)

09:29:39 <krp> ... so maybe we shouldn't call it container?

... so maybe we shouldn't call it container?

09:29:41 <SteveBattle> But we can also use skos:Collection - don't overload refs:Container

Steve Battle: But we can also use skos:Collection - don't overload refs:Container

09:29:52 <cygri> +1 to timbl's proposal

Richard Cyganiak: +1 to timbl's proposal

09:30:15 <krp> arnaud: good time to have a break?

Arnaud Le Hors: good time to have a break?

09:30:19 <betehess> +1 to timbl

Alexandre Bertails: +1 to timbl

09:30:29 <sandro> +1 timbl's

Sandro Hawke: +1 timbl's

09:30:38 <rgarcia> +1 to timbl's

Raúl García Castro: +1 to timbl's

09:30:56 <ericP>  Proposals:

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Proposals:

09:30:56 <ericP> .. hierarchical URIs represent containment (and delelete members) (stevebattle)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. hierarchical URIs represent containment (and delelete members) (stevebattle)

09:30:56 <ericP> .. class type specifies whether members are contained (bblfish)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. class type specifies whether members are contained (bblfish)

09:30:56 <ericP> .. { <SomeContainer> ldp:deletesMembers true } deletes members regardless of URI (ericP)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. { <SomeContainer> ldp:deletesMembers true } deletes members regardless of URI (ericP)

09:30:59 <ericP> .. the membership property specifies containment (rgarcia)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. the membership property specifies containment (rgarcia)

09:31:02 <ericP> .. all containers delete members (timbl)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. all containers delete members (timbl)

09:31:04 <ericP> .. all created (by POST) resources are contained

Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. all created (by POST) resources are contained

09:31:26 <timbl_> PROPOSAL:  separate client-client protocol from client-server. allow clients to build new kinds of structure and the server doesn't need to be away. server needs to be aware of things like managing the stored resources and backing to (file)storage.  the paging functionality be applied to any subject for any property, and that be separated in the spec from containment, and it apply to containment as a example with no further design.

PROPOSED: separate client-client protocol from client-server. allow clients to build new kinds of structure and the server doesn't need to be away. server needs to be aware of things like managing the stored resources and backing to (file)storage. the paging functionality be applied to any subject for any property, and that be separated in the spec from containment, and it apply to containment as a example with no further design.

09:34:48 <SteveBattle> Clarification neede: Does this separation imply that we drop ldp:membershipPredicate or not?

Steve Battle: Clarification neede: Does this separation imply that we drop ldp:membershipPredicate or not?

09:48:25 <Zakim> -Yves

(No events recorded for 13 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yves

09:59:57 <sandro> JohnArwe, we are returning from break now.

(No events recorded for 11 minutes)

Sandro Hawke:

10:00:29 <oberger> q+ to question the role of dc:creator for ownership wrt DELETE

Olivier Berger: q+ to question the role of dc:creator for ownership wrt DELETE

10:00:37 <Zakim> +JohnArwe

Zakim IRC Bot: +JohnArwe

10:00:38 <Zakim> -JohnArwe

Zakim IRC Bot: -JohnArwe

10:00:38 <Zakim> +JohnArwe

Zakim IRC Bot: +JohnArwe

10:02:56 <oberger> q-

Olivier Berger: q-

10:03:26 <betehess> s/JohnArwe, we are returning from break now.//
10:04:02 <ahaller2> ISSUE-25

Armin Haller: ISSUE-25

10:04:19 <oberger> JohnArwe, we have wandered a bit far from the issue

Olivier Berger: JohnArwe, we have wandered a bit far from the issue

10:04:20 <nmihindu> scribe: nmihindu

(Scribe set to Nandana Mihindukulasooriya)

10:04:34 <sandro> "Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers"

Sandro Hawke: "Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers"

10:05:07 <nmihindu> Arnaud: We are talking about many issues within this issues

Arnaud Le Hors: We are talking about many issues within this issues

10:05:26 <cygri> STRAWPOLL: Do we need weak aggregation in the spec?

STRAWPOLL: Do we need weak aggregation in the spec?

10:05:30 <sandro> Arnaud: I take for granted that we need Strong Compisition.  Any objection?  ...  none ...

Arnaud Le Hors: I take for granted that we need Strong Compisition. Any objection? ... none ... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:05:37 <nmihindu> Arnaud: do we need to have weak aggregation ?

Arnaud Le Hors: do we need to have weak aggregation ?

10:05:38 <cygri> +1 Yes we need it

Richard Cyganiak: +1 Yes we need it

10:05:41 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1

Bart van Leeuwen: +1

10:05:41 <ahaller2> +1

Armin Haller: +1

10:05:41 <antonis> +1

Antonis Loizou: +1

10:05:42 <rgarcia> +1

Raúl García Castro: +1

10:05:44 <oberger> +1

Olivier Berger: +1

10:05:44 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

10:05:50 <betehess> +1

Alexandre Bertails: +1

10:05:52 <bblfish> +1

Henry Story: +1 but in other terms

10:05:54 <SteveBattle> would like to hear what Time had to say before I vote

Steve Battle: would like to hear what Tim had to say before I vote

10:06:00 <nmihindu> Arnaud: do we need aggregation ?

Arnaud Le Hors: do we need aggregation ?

10:06:01 <SteveBattle> s/Time/Tim
10:06:11 <sandro> +0  apps need it, but I don't think *we* necessarily need to spec anything

Sandro Hawke: +0 apps need it, but I don't think *we* necessarily need to spec anything

10:06:13 <bblfish> +0

Henry Story: +0

10:06:20 <Zakim> +Yves

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yves

10:06:21 <timbl_> -1

Tim Berners-Lee: -1

10:06:23 <betehess> s/+1/+1 but in other terms/
10:06:23 <nmihindu> Arnaud: aggregation is weak composition

Arnaud Le Hors: aggregation is weak composition

10:06:28 <oberger> I'm not sure I understand what "need" means

Olivier Berger: I'm not sure I understand what "need" means

10:06:48 <Yves> +0 we might provision for it, but not define it

Yves Lafon: +0 we might provision for it, but not define it

10:06:54 <nmihindu> Arnaud: do we need to address weak aggregation in this spec ?

Arnaud Le Hors: do we need to address weak aggregation in this spec ?

10:06:59 <JohnArwe> what is composition as you're using the term, since I need to understand that in order to parse your definition of aggregation as weak comp

John Arwe: what is composition as you're using the term, since I need to understand that in order to parse your definition of aggregation as weak comp

10:06:59 <bblfish> I am not sure

Henry Story: I am not sure

10:07:07 <bblfish> I need to implement it

Henry Story: I need to implement it

10:07:21 <nmihindu> oberger: do paging is included in this ?

Olivier Berger: do paging is included in this ?

10:08:26 <antonis> strong composition: when a container is deleted, all contained resources are also deleted

Antonis Loizou: strong composition: when a container is deleted, all contained resources are also deleted

10:08:41 <nmihindu> timbl: why does the server have to know those arcs have to do with aggregation ?

Tim Berners-Lee: why does the server have to know those arcs have to do with aggregation ?

10:08:53 <antonis> weak aggregation: when a container is deleted, resources under it are not

Antonis Loizou: weak aggregation: when a container is deleted, resources under it are not

10:08:54 <SteveBattle> +1

Steve Battle: +1

10:08:56 <betehess> as a developer, I have no need at all for weak aggregation as I have RDF graphs already, but I see value in paging for any kind of resource

Alexandre Bertails: as a developer, I have no need at all for weak aggregation as I have RDF graphs already, but I see value in paging for any kind of resource

10:09:07 <krp> Do we need weak aggregation for *anything other than paging*? (if not, we can split out the paging issue)

Kevin Page: Do we need weak aggregation for *anything other than paging*? (if not, we can split out the paging issue)

10:09:16 <sandro> +1 timbl: general aggregation is something clients to can, without knowledge/support from the server.   but LDP servers should provide paging of that data, if necessary.

Sandro Hawke: +1 timbl: general aggregation is something clients to can, without knowledge/support from the server. but LDP servers should provide paging of that data, if necessary.

10:09:17 <bblfish> So one should consider other methods one can use to do the same. Eg. Post an rdf:Collection to a ldp:Collection, then one can use some form of SPARQL update on the collection when making changes

Henry Story: So one should consider other methods one can use to do the same. Eg. Post an rdf:Collection to a ldp:Collection, then one can use some form of SPARQL update on the collection when making changes

10:09:25 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

10:09:42 <nmihindu> SteveS: aggregation is important for ordering

Steve Speicher: aggregation is important for ordering

10:10:19 <sandro> subtopic? What does the server need to implement about aggregation?

Sandro Hawke: subtopic? What does the server need to implement about aggregation?

10:10:30 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

10:10:31 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

10:10:39 <cygri> q+ to say we need aggregation to associate two existing� resources

Richard Cyganiak: q+ to say we need aggregation to associate two existing� resources

10:10:41 <SteveBattle> I agree the spec doesn't NEED weak aggregation - it's a convenience.

Steve Battle: I agree the spec doesn't NEED weak aggregation - it's a convenience.

10:10:53 <svillata> q?

Serena Villata: q?

10:11:15 <cygri> q+ to say we need something aggregation-like in the client-server protocol to associate two existing resources

Richard Cyganiak: q+ to say we need something aggregation-like in the client-server protocol to associate two existing resources

10:11:24 <SteveS> wondering if using RDF collections to specify ordering in the model across pages will impose inserting stuff in graph

Steve Speicher: wondering if using RDF collections to specify ordering in the model across pages will impose inserting stuff in graph

10:11:39 <nmihindu> bblfish: if we have use cases for this, we can see how they fit

Henry Story: if we have use cases for this, we can see how they fit

10:11:42 <timbl_> Hmmm …. SPARQL updates for adding things to a list are something we do not have right now, we have to replace the list.

Tim Berners-Lee: Hmmm …. SPARQL updates for adding things to a list are something we do not have right now, we have to replace the list.

10:12:08 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

10:12:10 <krp> +q

Kevin Page: +q

10:12:13 <nmihindu> Arnaud: we are not sure what are the requirements are and what problems we need to solve

Arnaud Le Hors: we are not sure what are the requirements are and what problems we need to solve

10:13:22 <nmihindu> betehess: I need to have composition for resources I created and rest I can do in my application

Alexandre Bertails: I need to have composition for resources I created and rest I can do in my application

10:14:13 <timbl_> ?

Tim Berners-Lee: ?

10:14:19 <nmihindu> Arnaud: we need to see whether we have a UC for weak aggregation

Arnaud Le Hors: we need to see whether we have a UC for weak aggregation

10:14:54 <bblfish> which issue?

Henry Story: which issue?

10:15:03 <betehess> the issue may not be describing the UC very well

Alexandre Bertails: the issue may not be describing the UC very well

10:15:07 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

10:15:07 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say we need aggregation to associate two existing� resources and to say we need something aggregation-like in the client-server protocol to associate two

Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to say we need aggregation to associate two existing� resources and to say we need something aggregation-like in the client-server protocol to associate two

10:15:08 <ahaller2> example use case: a web form at /foo, data for this form at /foo/bar1 and /foo/bar2, but I want to keep these instances when I delete /foo, because the instances are independent resources of the web form

Armin Haller: example use case: a web form at /foo, data for this form at /foo/bar1 and /foo/bar2, but I want to keep these instances when I delete /foo, because the instances are independent resources of the web form

10:15:10 <Zakim> ... existing resources

Zakim IRC Bot: ... existing resources

10:15:12 <nmihindu> Arnaud: we need to decide whether this a requirement we need address

Arnaud Le Hors: we need to decide whether this a requirement we need address

10:15:21 <SteveBattle> weak aggregation was indirectly raised in issue 7

Steve Battle: weak aggregation was indirectly raised in ISSUE-7

10:16:00 <nmihindu> cygri: rdf triple by default is weak aggregation

Richard Cyganiak: rdf triple by default is weak aggregation

10:16:02 <bblfish> Issue-7?

Henry Story: ISSUE-7?

10:16:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open

10:16:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7

10:16:21 <betehess> I'm not sure if people here agee with cygri's definition of weak aggregation

Alexandre Bertails: I'm not sure if people here agree with cygri's definition of weak aggregation

10:16:36 <betehess> s/agee/agree/
10:16:38 <SteveBattle> I do

Steve Battle: I do

10:16:40 <bblfish> q?

Henry Story: q?

10:16:42 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

10:16:46 <nmihindu> cygri: I need some mechanism for doing paging and may be we can weak aggregation for this

Richard Cyganiak: I need some mechanism for doing paging and may be we can weak aggregation for this

10:17:06 <betehess> SteveBattle, care to put down in words definitions for weak and strong?

Alexandre Bertails: SteveBattle, care to put down in words definitions for weak and strong?

10:17:07 <bblfish> so my question is why can the weakly agregated collection not be just a document that contains links to other resources?

Henry Story: so my question is why can the weakly agregated collection not be just a document that contains links to other resources?

10:17:41 <nmihindu> sandro: whether PATCH will solve this problem ?

Sandro Hawke: whether PATCH will solve this problem ?

10:18:01 <bblfish> mhh. I thought we were going to have patch

Henry Story: mhh. I thought we were going to have patch

10:18:01 <nmihindu> cygri: it might

Richard Cyganiak: it might

10:18:03 <timbl_> q+

Tim Berners-Lee: q+

10:18:22 <bblfish> or something like it - ie sending a SPARQL update type of message to a resource

Henry Story: or something like it - ie sending a SPARQL update type of message to a resource

10:18:55 <betehess> I'm hearing timbl_'s proposal I believe

Alexandre Bertails: I'm hearing timbl_'s proposal I believe

10:19:43 <Arnaud> ack krp

Arnaud Le Hors: ack krp

10:19:52 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

10:19:53 <sandro> I actually think we should offer basic graph operations -- single triple match, and paging -- standard on all resources.

Sandro Hawke: I actually think we should offer basic graph operations -- single triple match, and paging -- standard on all resources.

10:19:53 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

10:20:07 <nmihindu> cygri: there are two main things related to containers 1) management of properties 2) creating new resources

Richard Cyganiak: there are two main things related to containers 1) management of properties 2) creating new resources

10:20:32 <Arnaud> ack timbl

Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl

10:20:46 <nmihindu> krp: concrete use case for weak aggregation

Kevin Page: concrete use case for weak aggregation

10:20:58 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

10:22:10 <bblfish> timple makes a strong case for PATCH

Henry Story: timbl makes a strong case for PATCH

10:22:13 <nmihindu> timbl: with PATCH this issue can be handled

Tim Berners-Lee: with PATCH this issue can be handled

10:22:13 <betehess> I thought that some kind of PATCH was a given

Alexandre Bertails: I thought that some kind of PATCH was a given

10:22:35 <JohnArwe> s/timple/timbl/
10:22:39 <SteveS> q+

Steve Speicher: q+

10:22:53 <nmihindu> timbl: did you make decision to make PATCH optional ?

Tim Berners-Lee: did you make decision to make PATCH optional ?

10:23:37 <Arnaud> ack steves

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves

10:23:57 <nmihindu> Arnaud: We can make patch mandatory how if we define how it will work

Arnaud Le Hors: We can make patch mandatory how if we define how it will work

10:24:16 <Yves> we need a patch format...

Yves Lafon: we need a patch format...

10:24:47 <nmihindu> SteveS: we will not reinvent the wheel but point to existing solutions

Steve Speicher: we will not reinvent the wheel but point to existing solutions

10:25:12 <SteveBattle> Composition is a 'part-of' relationship; the lifecycle of the subordinate resource is tied to the container. Aggregation is a 'member-of' relation; and the lifecycle of the subordinate object is not linked to the container.

Steve Battle: Composition is a 'part-of' relationship; the lifecycle of the subordinate resource is tied to the container. Aggregation is a 'member-of' relation; and the lifecycle of the subordinate object is not linked to the container.

10:25:23 <nmihindu> SteveS: we didn't include the PATCH as we couldn't agree on a PATCH format etc.

Steve Speicher: we didn't include the PATCH as we couldn't agree on a PATCH format etc.

10:26:02 <krp> For our application we need weak aggregation, but I believe this can be handled in the domain model. If I wanted to manipulate this membership through LDP, rather than manipulating the wider graph, then the membership triples could be an explicit separate resource that can be manipulated (e.g. DELETE). Strong containers are the distinct case where we would want to be explicit that the server attempt to recursively delete members.

Kevin Page: For our application we need weak aggregation, but I believe this can be handled in the domain model. If I wanted to manipulate this membership through LDP, rather than manipulating the wider graph, then the membership triples could be an explicit separate resource that can be manipulated (e.g. DELETE). Strong containers are the distinct case where we would want to be explicit that the server attempt to recursively delete members.

10:26:29 <betehess> krp, +1

Alexandre Bertails: krp, +1

10:26:30 <nmihindu> Arnaud: We first make spec address strong aggregation and then take a look at weak aggregation issue

Arnaud Le Hors: We first make spec address strong aggregation and then take a look at weak aggregation issue

10:26:39 <sandro> PROPOSAL: Make the containers in the spec be about Strong Composition, then accept proposals for how to do weak aggregation.   And separate proposals for paging, etc.

PROPOSED: Make the containers in the spec be about Strong Composition, then accept proposals for how to do weak aggregation. And separate proposals for paging, etc.

10:26:45 <SteveBattle> A given resource may both contain and aggregate many objects.

Steve Battle: A given resource may both contain and aggregate many objects.

10:26:49 <krp> +1

Kevin Page: +1

10:27:01 <SteveBattle> +1

Steve Battle: +1

10:27:04 <rgarcia> +

Raúl García Castro: +

10:27:04 <cygri> +

Richard Cyganiak: +

10:27:05 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

10:27:05 <antonis> +1

Antonis Loizou: +1

10:27:06 <rgarcia> +1

Raúl García Castro: +1

10:27:06 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

10:27:07 <betehess> +1

Alexandre Bertails: +1

10:27:08 <bblfish> +1

Henry Story: +1

10:27:10 <nmihindu> +1

+1

10:27:15 <timbl_> +1

Tim Berners-Lee: +1

10:27:16 <SteveBattle> q+

Steve Battle: q+

10:27:17 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

10:27:17 <svillata> +1

Serena Villata: +1

10:27:20 <Yves> +!

Yves Lafon: +!

10:27:21 <ahaller2> +1

Armin Haller: +1

10:27:24 <Yves> +1

Yves Lafon: +1

10:27:27 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

10:27:27 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1

Bart van Leeuwen: +1

10:27:30 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

10:27:30 <oberger> +1

Olivier Berger: +1

10:27:43 <sandro> RESOLVED: Make the containers in the spec be about Strong Composition, then accept proposals for how to do weak aggregation.   And separate proposals for paging, etc.

RESOLVED: Make the containers in the spec be about Strong Composition, then accept proposals for how to do weak aggregation. And separate proposals for paging, etc.

10:27:55 <Arnaud> ack steveb

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb

10:28:32 <nmihindu> SteveBattle: Do you mean the spec as it is or with changes ?

Steve Battle: Do you mean the spec as it is or with changes ?

10:28:58 <cygri> q+ to say that's a client-client issue

Richard Cyganiak: q+ to say that's a client-client issue

10:29:00 <nmihindu> SteveBattle: I am against using rdfs:member for composition

Steve Battle: I am against using rdfs:member for composition

10:29:15 <JohnArwe> I thought the resolution was, if you will, at the conceptual level.  Agreeing on that concept might imply that spec changes are a consequence.

John Arwe: I thought the resolution was, if you will, at the conceptual level. Agreeing on that concept might imply that spec changes are a consequence.

10:29:19 <bblfish> I understand the issue with rdfs:member being perhaps not precise enough.

Henry Story: I understand the issue with rdfs:member being perhaps not precise enough.

10:29:33 <bblfish>  ldp:member

Henry Story: ldp:member

10:29:36 <cygri> q?

Richard Cyganiak: q?

10:29:48 <timbl_> q+

Tim Berners-Lee: q+

10:29:48 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

10:29:49 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say that's a client-client issue

Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to say that's a client-client issue

10:30:02 <JohnArwe> ...i.e., if we agree the spec *should* be describing strong composition and we find cases where it is not, well that's what comments are for.

John Arwe: ...i.e., if we agree the spec *should* be describing strong composition and we find cases where it is not, well that's what comments are for.

10:30:33 <SteveBattle> I still think that overloads rdfs:member

Steve Battle: I still think that overloads rdfs:member

10:30:36 <krp> Though while I think weak composition can/should be done in the domain model, I think this approach will need explanation through example (e.g. in a primer)

Kevin Page: Though while I think weak composition can/should be done in the domain model, I think this approach will need explanation through example (e.g. in a primer)

10:30:49 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_member 5.1.6 rdfs:member

Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_member 5.1.6 rdfs:member

10:30:49 <oberger>  rdfs:member is an instance of rdf:Property that is a super-property of all the container membership properties i.e. each container membership property has an rdfs:subPropertyOf relationship to the property rdfs:member.

Olivier Berger: rdfs:member is an instance of rdf:Property that is a super-property of all the container membership properties i.e. each container membership property has an rdfs:subPropertyOf relationship to the property rdfs:member.

10:30:55 <nmihindu> cygri: we are not using rdfs:member for composition but the ldp container class

Richard Cyganiak: we are not using rdfs:member for composition but the ldp container class

10:31:05 <betehess> please no sub-properties

Alexandre Bertails: please no sub-properties

10:31:16 <Arnaud> ack timbl

Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl

10:32:05 <oberger> are we done with issue 25 ?

Olivier Berger: are we done with ISSUE-25 ?

10:32:40 <nmihindu> timbl_: SPARQL update is the clear choice for PATCH

Tim Berners-Lee: SPARQL update is the clear choice for PATCH

10:32:46 <SteveBattle> I proposed changesets as a PATCH format :(

Steve Battle: I proposed changesets as a PATCH format :(

10:32:46 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

10:32:50 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

10:33:52 <nmihindu> Arnaud: I don't think we can close the ISSUE 25

Arnaud Le Hors: I don't think we can close the ISSUE-25

10:34:13 <bblfish> so we need to open a new issue on patch

Henry Story: so we need to open a new issue on patch

10:34:41 <bblfish> +1

Henry Story: +1

10:34:48 <cygri> ISSUE-7?

Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-7?

10:34:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open

10:34:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7

10:34:48 <nmihindu> cygri: we need to answer the four points of the ISSUE 25, if PATCH is there is solves the issue. If it is not there we need to address those.

Richard Cyganiak: we need to answer the four points of the ISSUE-25, if PATCH is there is solves the issue. If it is not there we need to address those.

10:34:58 <cygri> ISSUE-17?

Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-17?

10:34:58 <trackbot> ISSUE-17 -- changesets as a recommended PATCH format -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-17 -- changesets as a recommended PATCH format -- open

10:34:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/17

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/17

10:35:05 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

10:35:39 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q-

10:35:41 <nmihindu> sandro: Issue 17 is related to PATCH, may be we should rename it to handle PATCH

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-17 is related to PATCH, may be we should rename it to handle PATCH

10:36:15 <timbl_> Arnaud's  division above separates the paging and patch be defined independently of containers is wise, and does require new issues about defining PATCH and generalizing paging.

Tim Berners-Lee: Arnaud's division above separates the paging and patch be defined independently of containers is wise, and does require new issues about defining PATCH and generalizing paging.

10:36:34 <timbl_> q?

Tim Berners-Lee: q?

10:36:37 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

10:36:41 <sandro> Arnaud: Close issue-25 but make sure we have open ones on Patch and General-Paging

Arnaud Le Hors: Close ISSUE-25 but make sure we have open ones on Patch and General-Paging [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:36:44 <nmihindu> Arnaud: We need an issue about aggregation, and issue 17 will handle PATCH

Arnaud Le Hors: We need an issue about aggregation, and ISSUE-17 will handle PATCH

10:36:51 <BartvanLeeuwen> Issue-7?

Bart van Leeuwen: ISSUE-7?

10:36:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open

10:36:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7

10:37:03 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

10:37:09 <AndyS> FWIW - Changesets can be translated directly to a SPARQL Update (a DELETE DATA and a INSERT DATA) mechanically.

Andy Seaborne: FWIW - Changesets can be translated directly to a SPARQL Update (a DELETE DATA and a INSERT DATA) mechanically.

10:37:29 <sandro> cygri: If we define a required patch format, then that solves issue-25, yes.

Richard Cyganiak: If we define a required patch format, then that solves ISSUE-25, yes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:38:32 <nmihindu> Arnaud: we should have an issue on paging

Arnaud Le Hors: we should have an issue on paging

10:38:41 <oberger> issue-17?

Olivier Berger: ISSUE-17?

10:38:41 <trackbot> ISSUE-17 -- changesets as a recommended PATCH format -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-17 -- changesets as a recommended PATCH format -- open

10:38:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/17

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/17

10:38:48 <cygri> ISSUE-18?

Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-18?

10:38:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-18 -- container membership and robust pagination -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-18 -- container membership and robust pagination -- open

10:38:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/18

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/18

10:39:01 <nmihindu> oberger: do we need more used cases for aggregation ?

Olivier Berger: do we need more use cases for aggregation ?

10:39:17 <nmihindu> cygri: we already have one

Richard Cyganiak: we already have one

10:39:37 <nmihindu> s/used/use
10:39:45 <SteveS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Sep/0089.html

Steve Speicher: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Sep/0089.html

10:40:11 <SteveBattle> I believe that all any's scenarios are covered in UC&R

Steve Battle: I believe that all andy's scenarios are covered in UC&R

10:40:19 <SteveBattle> s/any/andy
10:40:20 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to open an issue on paging

ACTION: cygri to open an issue on paging

10:40:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Open an issue on paging [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-09].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-22 - Open an issue on paging [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-09].

10:42:22 <nmihindu> Arnaud: we need to close some issue and open more granular ones that addresses the raised points

Arnaud Le Hors: we need to close some issue and open more granular ones that addresses the raised points

10:43:11 <bblfish> AndyS: hi

Andy Seaborne: hi [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ]

10:43:13 <SteveBattle> Are you there Andy?

Steve Battle: Are you there Andy?

10:43:16 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

10:43:32 <AndyS> Hello

Andy Seaborne: Hello

10:43:36 <krp> +1 to clearly scoped narrower issues

Kevin Page: +1 to clearly scoped narrower issues

10:43:46 <AndyS> On IRC

Andy Seaborne: On IRC

10:44:12 <AndyS> (can phone in but need time to move room and dial-in).

Andy Seaborne: (can phone in but need time to move room and dial-in).

10:44:28 <BartvanLeeuwen> AndyS, just read along

Bart van Leeuwen: AndyS, just read along

10:44:41 <cygri> AndyS, I'm going to create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7

Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, I'm going to create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7

10:44:46 <sandro> AndyS, it's not clear what we're about to talk about next.

Sandro Hawke: AndyS, it's not clear what we're about to talk about next.

10:44:52 <AndyS> I am :-) Fascinating.

Andy Seaborne: I am :-) Fascinating.

10:45:12 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7; PATCH might be one way to do it

ACTION: cygri to create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7; PATCH might be one way to do it

10:45:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7; PATCH might be one way to do it [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-09].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-23 - Create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7; PATCH might be one way to do it [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-09].

10:45:35 <SteveBattle> Resources under the same authority can be distributed across many servers.

Steve Battle: Resources under the same authority can be distributed across many servers.

10:45:39 <timbl_> ISSUE: Should the PATCH method be used, as oppose t POST with a given mime type?   What systems can support PATCH easily? (tabulator uses POST but could change of course)

ISSUE: Should the PATCH method be used, as oppose t POST with a given mime type? What systems can support PATCH easily? (tabulator uses POST but could change of course)

10:45:39 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-27 - Should the PATCH method be used, as oppose t POST with a given mime type?   What systems can support PATCH easily? (tabulator uses POST but could change of course) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/27/edit .

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-27 - Should the PATCH method be used, as oppose t POST with a given mime type? What systems can support PATCH easily? (tabulator uses POST but could change of course) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/27/edit .

10:45:39 <rgarcia> oberger, that is one problem of having strong aggregation using  an URI schema. I we don't do it there should not be

Raúl García Castro: oberger, that is one problem of having strong aggregation using an URI schema. I we don't do it there should not be

10:45:59 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

10:46:02 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

10:46:23 <betehess> PROPOSAL: close #25

PROPOSED: close #25

10:46:30 <nmihindu> Arnaud: can we close ISSUE 25 now ?

Arnaud Le Hors: can we close ISSUE-25 now ?

10:46:57 <nmihindu> cygri: with the two actions created I think we can close the issue

Richard Cyganiak: with the two actions created I think we can close the issue

10:47:05 <bblfish> +1

Henry Story: +1

10:47:06 <betehess> +1

Alexandre Bertails: +1

10:47:09 <rgarcia> +1

Raúl García Castro: +1

10:47:09 <krp> +1

Kevin Page: +1

10:47:10 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

10:47:10 <svillata> +1

Serena Villata: +1

10:47:11 <nmihindu> +1

+1

10:47:11 <oberger> +1

Olivier Berger: +1

10:47:14 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

10:47:21 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

10:47:22 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1

Bart van Leeuwen: +1

10:47:23 <SteveBattle> +1

Steve Battle: +1

10:47:34 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

10:47:37 <antonis> +1

Antonis Loizou: +1

10:47:41 <betehess> APPROVED: close #25

Alexandre Bertails:

10:47:55 <betehess> RESOLVED: close #25

Alexandre Bertails:

10:48:11 <betehess> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-25

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-25

10:48:19 <betehess> s/APPROVED: close #25//
10:48:25 <betehess> s/RESOLVED: close #25//
10:48:30 <oberger> q+ to know if we need to create an issue on examples only using resources on same server ans subpaths for (strong) composition

Olivier Berger: q+ to know if we need to create an issue on examples only using resources on same server ans subpaths for (strong) composition

10:48:45 <timbl_> Ooops  I didn't mean to create an issue in the system.   it let me create an issue but not edit it.

Tim Berners-Lee: Ooops I didn't mean to create an issue in the system. it let me create an issue but not edit it.

10:48:46 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

10:48:46 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to know if we need to create an issue on examples only using resources on same server ans subpaths for (strong) composition

Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to know if we need to create an issue on examples only using resources on same server ans subpaths for (strong) composition

10:49:28 <timbl_> q+

Tim Berners-Lee: q+

10:49:30 <SteveBattle> Isn't this kind of federation an implementation issue?

Steve Battle: Isn't this kind of federation an implementation issue?

10:49:38 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

10:49:41 <nmihindu> oberger: we should make explicit or provide examples that resources can be all over the world even with composition

Olivier Berger: we should make explicit or provide examples that resources can be all over the world even with composition

10:50:00 <bblfish> +1 for cygri: strong composition means you have to go through the container to create the resource.

Henry Story: +1 for cygri: strong composition means you have to go through the container to create the resource.

10:50:40 <nmihindu> cygri: strong composition usually implies it is created by the container on the same server

Richard Cyganiak: strong composition usually implies it is created by the container on the same server

10:51:18 <nmihindu> oberger: disagree, it could be possible to have something similar to factories in OOP

Olivier Berger: disagree, it could be possible to have something similar to factories in OOP

10:51:42 <webr3> how do you make an LDPC?

Nathan Rixham: how do you make an LDPC?

10:51:42 <betehess> q-

Alexandre Bertails: q-

10:52:07 <sandro> sandro: When you POST to create a resource in a container, it might be given a URL on a different host, yes.     eg posting to api.example.com might make resources show up on {username}.example.com based on who did the post.

Sandro Hawke: When you POST to create a resource in a container, it might be given a URL on a different host, yes. eg posting to api.example.com might make resources show up on {username}.example.com based on who did the post. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:52:16 <nmihindu> Arnaud: oberger does not want the strong composition to imply the resources are on the same server

Arnaud Le Hors: oberger does not want the strong composition to imply the resources are on the same server

10:53:01 <JohnArwe> I think all olivier is asking for it to make at least one EXAMPLE show a container whose "output" member URI has no visible relationship to the container URI

John Arwe: I think all olivier is asking for it to make at least one EXAMPLE show a container whose "output" member URI has no visible relationship to the container URI

10:53:17 <nmihindu> oberger: The spec does not say that but people might have a misunderstanding without an explicit example

Olivier Berger: The spec does not say that but people might have a misunderstanding without an explicit example

10:53:19 <SteveBattle> A container SHOULD NOT manage resources under a different authority.

Steve Battle: A container SHOULD NOT manage resources under a different authority.

10:53:22 <rgarcia> +1 to having an example

Raúl García Castro: +1 to having an example

10:53:53 <cygri> PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server

PROPOSED: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server

10:53:58 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

10:53:59 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

10:54:00 <nmihindu> +1

+1

10:54:00 <rgarcia> +1

Raúl García Castro: +1

10:54:02 <oberger> +1

Olivier Berger: +1

10:54:02 <svillata> +1

Serena Villata: +1

10:54:03 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

10:54:04 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1

Bart van Leeuwen: +1

10:54:05 <krp> +1

Kevin Page: +1

10:54:06 <SteveBattle> -0

Steve Battle: -0

10:54:09 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

10:54:09 <cygri> +0.2 sure why not

Richard Cyganiak: +0.2 sure why not

10:54:12 <JohnArwe> +1

John Arwe: +1

10:54:13 <webr3> +1

Nathan Rixham: +1

10:54:13 <betehess> +1

Alexandre Bertails: +1

10:54:51 <timbl_> q+

Tim Berners-Lee: q+

10:55:12 <nmihindu> SteveBattle: with my early proposal, they should be strictly in the same hierarchy

Steve Battle: with my early proposal, they should be strictly in the same hierarchy

10:55:17 <Arnaud> ack timbl

Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl

10:55:19 <sandro> SteveBattle: I like having the contained-item URLs be in the hierarchy under the container URLs

Steve Battle: I like having the contained-item URLs be in the hierarchy under the container URLs [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

10:55:57 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

10:56:05 <nmihindu> timbl: at some point we need to have the concept of ownership

Tim Berners-Lee: at some point we need to have the concept of ownership

10:56:28 <SteveBattle> Yes - I admit it - I do look at URL's - I don't always wear the opaque glasses.

Steve Battle: Yes - I admit it - I do look at URL's - I don't always wear the opaque glasses.

10:56:36 <bblfish> so the point is one of domain name ownership.

Henry Story: so the point is one of domain name ownership.

10:57:06 <krp> q+ So is there an issue that with strong containers deletion of a container deletes the members, but the client is not informed which member resources have been successfully deleted - it has to assume or guess?

Kevin Page: q+ So is there an issue that with strong containers deletion of a container deletes the members, but the client is not informed which member resources have been successfully deleted - it has to assume or guess?

10:57:14 <SteveBattle> I also like slugs.

Steve Battle: I also like slugs.

10:57:27 <rgarcia> +q to say that the directory structure can mislead clients when differentiating between paths and resources

Raúl García Castro: +q to say that the directory structure can mislead clients when differentiating between paths and resources

10:57:36 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

10:57:43 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

10:57:48 <krp> q+

Kevin Page: q+

10:57:52 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+

Ashok Malhotra: q+

10:58:50 <Arnaud> ack sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro

10:59:32 <JohnArwe> q+ to say coming from highly robust implementation background, making the members owned by the container's implementation does *improve your odds* but it is NOT an iron-clad guarantee against inconsistent results due to failures in underlying code layers

John Arwe: q+ to say coming from highly robust implementation background, making the members owned by the container's implementation does *improve your odds* but it is NOT an iron-clad guarantee against inconsistent results due to failures in underlying code layers

10:59:37 <bblfish> PROPOSAL: perhaps the example in the spec should be something close to the livesjournal example

PROPOSED: perhaps the example in the spec should be something close to the livesjournal example

10:59:43 <Arnaud> ack rgarcia

Arnaud Le Hors: ack rgarcia

10:59:43 <Zakim> rgarcia, you wanted to say that the directory structure can mislead clients when differentiating between paths and resources

Zakim IRC Bot: rgarcia, you wanted to say that the directory structure can mislead clients when differentiating between paths and resources

10:59:44 <cygri> sandro++

Richard Cyganiak: sandro++

11:00:04 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

11:00:31 <Arnaud> ack krp

Arnaud Le Hors: ack krp

11:00:35 <nmihindu>  rgarcia: in the url, can we assume every part of it is a resource ?

rgarcia: in the url, can we assume every part of it is a resource ?

11:00:50 <Ashok_Malhotra> q-

Ashok Malhotra: q-

11:00:50 <nmihindu> cygri: no

Richard Cyganiak: no

11:01:01 <timbl_> q+

Tim Berners-Lee: q+

11:01:32 <svillata> q?

Serena Villata: q?

11:01:35 <cygri> webr3, all containers are resources too. if there are conflicts, it's a bug.

Richard Cyganiak: webr3, all containers are resources too. if there are conflicts, it's a bug.

11:02:17 <SteveBattle> Nothing to stop you using a PUT to create a container, or a POST if you have another container.

Steve Battle: Nothing to stop you using a PUT to create a container, or a POST if you have another container.

11:02:23 <timbl_> q+ to say that from client app point ov view, it is important to keep local data in sync with data in the LDP server, so please restrict results to "Your delete of the  container worked" or "failed completely" but not "may be in any half-deleted state".

Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to say that from client app point ov view, it is important to keep local data in sync with data in the LDP server, so please restrict results to "Your delete of the container worked" or "failed completely" but not "may be in any half-deleted state".

11:02:52 <nmihindu> Arnaud: where do you stand in this proposal ?

Arnaud Le Hors: where do you stand in this proposal ?

11:03:00 <krp> with strong containers when the container is deleted the members should be deleted, but this isn't always possible (not on server, access control). This could be clarified by returning to the client the resources that have actually successfully been deleted (which may not be all members after all)

Kevin Page: with strong containers when the container is deleted the members should be deleted, but this isn't always possible (not on server, access control). This could be clarified by returning to the client the resources that have actually successfully been deleted (which may not be all members after all)

11:03:29 <Ashok_Malhotra> Tim is asking for transactions!

Ashok Malhotra: Tim is asking for transactions!

11:03:43 <webr3> +20 to transactions!

Nathan Rixham: +20 to transactions!

11:03:45 <JohnArwe> ...distributed trxns no less

John Arwe: ...distributed trxns no less

11:03:50 <sandro> tim: I'm okay with this proposal as long as it's clear the client can't just add something across the web to the "strong Container" and expect it too be deleted when the container is deleted!

Tim Berners-Lee: I'm okay with this proposal as long as it's clear the client can't just add something across the web to the "strong Container" and expect it too be deleted when the container is deleted! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

11:05:16 <rgarcia> cygri, yes, my only comment was that it can be misleading for clients

Raúl García Castro: cygri, yes, my only comment was that it can be misleading for clients

11:05:34 <oberger> q+ to ask if there's something wrong with 5.6.1

Olivier Berger: q+ to ask if there's something wrong with 5.6.1

11:05:51 <nmihindu> timbl: I prefer the make sure the delete happens or say it is forbidden to delete

Tim Berners-Lee: I prefer the make sure the delete happens or say it is forbidden to delete

11:05:56 <Arnaud> ack john

Arnaud Le Hors: ack john

11:05:56 <Zakim> JohnArwe, you wanted to say coming from highly robust implementation background, making the members owned by the container's implementation does *improve your odds* but it is NOT

Zakim IRC Bot: JohnArwe, you wanted to say coming from highly robust implementation background, making the members owned by the container's implementation does *improve your odds* but it is NOT

11:05:59 <Zakim> ... an iron-clad guarantee against inconsistent results due to failures in underlying code layers

Zakim IRC Bot: ... an iron-clad guarantee against inconsistent results due to failures in underlying code layers

11:06:16 <melvster> hi all ... just following remotely :) melvster == Melvin Carvalho

Melvin Carvalho: hi all ... just following remotely :) melvster == Melvin Carvalho

11:06:58 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

11:06:58 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

11:07:02 <sandro> issue-28?

Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-28?

11:07:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-28 -- transaction/rollback when deleting resources from a LDPC -- raised

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-28 -- transaction/rollback when deleting resources from a LDPC -- raised

11:07:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/28

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/28

11:07:11 <Arnaud> ack timbl

Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl

11:07:11 <Zakim> timbl_, you wanted to say that from client app point ov view, it is important to keep local data in sync with data in the LDP server, so please restrict results to "Your delete of

Zakim IRC Bot: timbl_, you wanted to say that from client app point ov view, it is important to keep local data in sync with data in the LDP server, so please restrict results to "Your delete of

11:07:14 <Zakim> ... the  container worked" or "failed completely" but not "may be in any half-deleted state".

Zakim IRC Bot: ... the container worked" or "failed completely" but not "may be in any half-deleted state".

11:07:21 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

11:07:43 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

11:07:53 <krp> for the server to guarantee it can fully delete the container and all members, it must restrict the members it accepts to those it would be able to delete?

Kevin Page: for the server to guarantee it can fully delete the container and all members, it must restrict the members it accepts to those it would be able to delete?

11:08:10 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

11:08:10 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to ask if there's something wrong with 5.6.1

Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to ask if there's something wrong with 5.6.1

11:08:16 <timbl_> kip, the server never :"accep[ts" members -- it creates them

Tim Berners-Lee: krp, the server never :"accep[ts" members -- it creates them

11:08:29 <timbl_> so it can control them

Tim Berners-Lee: so it can control them

11:08:40 <nmihindu> oberger: Is there an issue with 5.6.1 ?

Olivier Berger: Is there an issue with 5.6.1 ?

11:08:41 <timbl_> s/kip/krp/
11:08:48 <sandro> earlier mostly-resolved:  <cygri> PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server

Sandro Hawke: earlier mostly-resolved: <cygri> PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server

11:09:24 <timbl_> but point out that the resources will all be under the direct control of the same system.

Tim Berners-Lee: but point out that the resources will all be under the direct control of the same system.

11:09:25 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

11:09:42 <nmihindu> Arnaud: should we amend the proposal ?

Arnaud Le Hors: should we amend the proposal ?

11:09:48 <timbl_>  PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server but point out that the resources will all be under the direct control of the same system.

Tim Berners-Lee: PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server but point out that the resources will all be under the direct control of the same system.

11:09:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

11:10:14 <nmihindu> bblfish: we can add an example to the spec with a concrete case

Henry Story: we can add an example to the spec with a concrete case

11:10:18 <sandro> PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even have the same "host" part of the URL.    Try to have example that motivates it, such as livejournal cross-origin issue

PROPOSED: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even have the same "host" part of the URL. Try to have example that motivates it, such as livejournal cross-origin issue

11:10:23 <betehess> can we just decouple creation from deletion for now?

Alexandre Bertails: can we just decouple creation from deletion for now?

11:10:57 <SteveBattle> My concern is that I'm a fan of human readable URIs - which kind of implies hierarchy <vhttp://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/114>

Steve Battle: My concern is that I'm a fan of human readable URIs - which kind of implies hierarchy <vhttp://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/114>

11:11:24 <nmihindu> krp: direct control potion of timl is important

Kevin Page: direct control potion of timl is important

11:11:46 <sandro> SteveBattle, I think that's a Best Practice, not something we should mandate.

Sandro Hawke: SteveBattle, I think that's a Best Practice, not something we should mandate.

11:12:28 <SteveBattle> Yeah - I'm happy with that 'MUST' in the proposal.

Steve Battle: Yeah - I'm happy with that 'MUST' in the proposal.

11:12:44 <sandro> +1 cygri since the server had the power to CREATE the resource, presumably it has the power to DELETE it.

Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri since the server had the power to CREATE the resource, presumably it has the power to DELETE it.

11:12:55 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

11:13:02 <nmihindu> cygri: if the container has the power to create a resource probably it has the power to delete it

Richard Cyganiak: if the container has the power to create a resource probably it has the power to delete it

11:13:10 <cygri> How about this: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server

Richard Cyganiak: How about this: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server

11:13:29 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

11:13:33 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1

Bart van Leeuwen: +1

11:13:35 <rgarcia> +1

Raúl García Castro: +1

11:13:36 <SteveBattle> +1

Steve Battle: +1

11:13:48 <JohnArwe> hold on, the server creates it under the access controls of the authenticated user.  ditto delete.  those are different requests, potentially coming from different principals, and there may be method-level permissions involved.

John Arwe: hold on, the server creates it under the access controls of the authenticated user. ditto delete. those are different requests, potentially coming from different principals, and there may be method-level permissions involved.

11:13:57 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

11:14:00 <svillata> +1

Serena Villata: +1

11:14:22 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

11:14:23 <krp> the "direct control" part is more important for deletion. I think Tim's point was that we make deleting a (strong) container clear by putting the requirement on the server to control those resources - and it controls that from creation

Kevin Page: the "direct control" part is more important for deletion. I think Tim's point was that we make deleting a (strong) container clear by putting the requirement on the server to control those resources - and it controls that from creation

11:14:31 <nmihindu> Ashok: do you need to follow up it with the information about delete ?

Ashok Malhotra: do you need to follow up it with the information about delete ?

11:14:37 <SteveBattle> Just checking - does that mean 'subordinate resources'. We can still create stand-alone resources some other way - yes?

Steve Battle: Just checking - does that mean 'subordinate resources'. We can still create stand-alone resources some other way - yes?

11:14:52 <timbl_> The server takes on responsibility for being able to efficiently delete the new resource when the container is deleted.

Tim Berners-Lee: The server takes on responsibility for being able to efficiently delete the new resource when the container is deleted.

11:15:09 <nmihindu> cygri: The follow up with create a long discussion it is better to stick with this

Richard Cyganiak: The follow up will create a long discussion it is better to stick will this

11:15:18 <cygri> JohnArwe, absolutely anything can fail due to access control

Richard Cyganiak: JohnArwe, absolutely anything can fail due to access control

11:15:23 <nmihindu> s/with/will
11:15:29 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server

PROPOSED: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server

11:15:32 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

11:15:34 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

11:15:34 <rgarcia> +1

Raúl García Castro: +1

11:15:35 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

11:15:36 <svillata> +1

Serena Villata: +1

11:15:36 <nmihindu> +1

+1

11:15:36 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

11:15:37 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

11:15:37 <betehess> +1

Alexandre Bertails: +1

11:15:37 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1

Bart van Leeuwen: +1

11:15:37 <krp> +1

Kevin Page: +1

11:15:39 <bblfish> +1

Henry Story: +1

11:15:40 <oberger> +1

Olivier Berger: +1

11:15:43 <ahaller2> +1

Armin Haller: +1

11:15:44 <SteveBattle> ???

Steve Battle: ???

11:15:47 <JohnArwe> +1

John Arwe: +1

11:15:48 <antonis> +1

Antonis Loizou: +1

11:15:49 <timbl_> +1

Tim Berners-Lee: +1

11:15:53 <Yves> =0

Yves Lafon: =0

11:16:15 <SteveBattle> +1

Steve Battle: +1

11:16:25 <nmihindu> SteveBattle: is this just taking about the resources created by a container ?

Steve Battle: is this just taking about the resources created by a container ?

11:16:35 <nmihindu> cygri: yes

Richard Cyganiak: yes

11:16:54 <SteveBattle> "resources are created ONLY through the container" - what's the scope of that?

Steve Battle: "resources are created ONLY through the container" - what's the scope of that?

11:17:04 <JohnArwe> I do seem to remember existing text saying that containers were allowed to add members through other means outside the spec, so "created only through the container" MIGHT conflict with that.

John Arwe: I do seem to remember existing text saying that containers were allowed to add members through other means outside the spec, so "created only through the container" MIGHT conflict with that.

11:17:28 <nmihindu> RESOLVED: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server

RESOLVED: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server

11:18:09 <nmihindu> Arnaud: Do we need to change the text in 5.6.1 in the spec ?

Arnaud Le Hors: Do we need to change the text in 5.6.1 in the spec ?

11:18:12 <SteveBattle> Can we have minuted clarification of that last point?

Steve Battle: Can we have minuted clarification of that last point?

11:18:42 <nmihindu> SteveS: yes, it is an editorial change.

Steve Speicher: yes, it is an editorial change.

11:18:43 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

11:18:43 <cygri> q?

Richard Cyganiak: q?

11:18:47 <sandro> looks like 5.6.1 turns int o a MUST.         Deleting a container means MUST delete containted resources.

Sandro Hawke: looks like 5.6.1 turns int o a MUST. Deleting a container means MUST delete containted resources.

11:18:53 <rgarcia> +q to remark JohnArwe 's comment

Raúl García Castro: +q to remark JohnArwe 's comment

11:19:32 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

11:19:45 <bblfish> MUST does not mean it cannot fail

Henry Story: MUST does not mean it cannot fail

11:19:48 <krp> +q to say some of these are errors

Kevin Page: +q to say some of these are errors

11:20:20 <nmihindu> cygri: MUST not be possible for various reasons, we can change it to SHOULD or say the server must notify if something bad happens

Richard Cyganiak: MUST not be possible for various reasons, we can change it to SHOULD or say the server must notify if something bad happens

11:20:30 <betehess> but these things are already defined in HTTP!

Alexandre Bertails: but these things are already defined in HTTP!

11:20:52 <rgarcia> +1 to indicate that the server must notify the client when something wrong happens

Raúl García Castro: +1 to indicate that the server must notify the client when something wrong happens

11:21:13 <nmihindu> Arnaud: it is common case for many issues, though it is a MUST, errors can happen

Arnaud Le Hors: it is common case for many issues, though it is a MUST, errors can happen

11:22:00 <cygri> summary: Long discussion of (strong) composition versus (weak) aggregation. The group resolves that LDP containers are for strong aggregation. The question what exactly this means for deletion of containers remains unresolved. Various uses for weak aggregation, such as paging, ordering and linking/unlinking resources, are to be treated as separate issues. ACTIONs are taken to raise and refactor some issues accordingly. The group mostly rejects the idea that composition requires URIs to be in a hierarchy.
12:35:00 <cygri> scribenick: rgarcia

(No events recorded for 73 minutes)

(Scribe set to Raúl García Castro)

12:35:00 <cygri> TOPIC: Agenda Adjustments

4. Agenda Adjustments

12:35:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc

12:36:01 <betehess> RRSAgent, please make minutes

Alexandre Bertails: RRSAgent, please make minutes

12:36:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-minutes.html betehess

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-minutes.html betehess

12:36:49 <rgarcia> q?

q?

12:36:57 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer?

12:36:57 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc#T12-36-57

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc#T12-36-57

12:38:03 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone

12:38:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who's on the phone', Arnaud

12:38:13 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?

Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone?

12:38:13 <Zakim> sorry, Arnaud, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Arnaud, I don't know what conference this is

12:38:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see timbl, cygri, nmihindu, RRSAgent, Zakim, svillata, bblfish, rgarcia, AndyS, betehess, oberger, webr3, melvster, krp, antonis, jmvanel, Yves, sandro, Arnaud, ericP,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see timbl, cygri, nmihindu, RRSAgent, Zakim, svillata, bblfish, rgarcia, AndyS, betehess, oberger, webr3, melvster, krp, antonis, jmvanel, Yves, sandro, Arnaud, ericP,

12:38:14 <Zakim> ... ahaller2, JohnArwe, jonathandray, LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: ... ahaller2, JohnArwe, jonathandray, LeeF

12:38:31 <sandro> zakim, this is ldp

Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is ldp

12:38:31 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_LDP()2:30AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_LDP()2:30AM

12:38:39 <sandro> zakim, who is here?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is here?

12:38:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see St_Clair_3B

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see St_Clair_3B

12:38:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see timbl, cygri, nmihindu, RRSAgent, Zakim, svillata, bblfish, rgarcia, AndyS, betehess, oberger, webr3, melvster, krp, antonis, jmvanel, Yves, sandro, Arnaud, ericP,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see timbl, cygri, nmihindu, RRSAgent, Zakim, svillata, bblfish, rgarcia, AndyS, betehess, oberger, webr3, melvster, krp, antonis, jmvanel, Yves, sandro, Arnaud, ericP,

12:38:40 <Zakim> ... ahaller2, JohnArwe, jonathandray, LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: ... ahaller2, JohnArwe, jonathandray, LeeF

12:39:15 <rgarcia> scribenick rgarcia

scribenick rgarcia

12:39:50 <rgarcia> Arnaud: let's talk about the agenda this afternoon

Arnaud Le Hors: let's talk about the agenda this afternoon

12:41:16 <rgarcia> ... we should add a deadline for the ACL note

... we should add a timeline for the ACL note

12:41:35 <rgarcia> s/deadline/timeline/
12:43:35 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

12:44:11 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

12:44:58 <rgarcia> cygri: Also talk about deployment guide (non normative)

Richard Cyganiak: Also talk about deployment guide (non normative)

12:45:09 <oberger> hi BartvanLeeuwen, the discussion on the test suite should start soon, FWIW

Olivier Berger: hi BartvanLeeuwen, the discussion on the test suite should start soon, FWIW

12:45:32 <oberger> BartvanLeeuwen, sorry... confusion with ruben (again ;)

Olivier Berger: BartvanLeeuwen, sorry... confusion with ruben (again ;)

12:46:02 <rgarcia> ... and about potential implementors

... and about potential implementors

12:46:52 <rgarcia> ... such as client libraries or user interfaces

... such as client libraries or user interfaces

12:47:13 <sandro> timbl: Does Tabulator count as this kind of Generic LDP Client?

Tim Berners-Lee: Does Tabulator count as this kind of Generic LDP Client? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:47:35 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

12:47:43 <betehess> q-

Alexandre Bertails: q-

12:48:33 <bblfish> rww giup http://www.w3.org/community/rww/wiki/TPAC-Lyon-2012

Henry Story: rww giup http://www.w3.org/community/rww/wiki/TPAC-Lyon-2012

12:48:37 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/community/rww/

Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/community/rww/

12:48:43 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

12:48:43 <bblfish> we mentioned this group here in our meeting

Henry Story: we mentioned this group here in our meeting

12:49:01 <sandro> tim: Yes, Tabulator should be a generic LDP client, and you may find other clients in the RWW CG

Tim Berners-Lee: Yes, Tabulator should be a generic LDP client, and you may find other clients in the RWW CG [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

12:49:25 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

12:48:00 <rgarcia> TOPIC: Timeline for Access Control Note

5. Timeline for Access Control Note

Summary: A draft will be available by November 12th, and the WG has until November 26th to submit material for an initial draft.

12:49:29 <rgarcia> Arnaud: Ashok, how long it will take you for a first draft?

Arnaud Le Hors: Ashok, how long it will take you for a first draft?

12:49:36 <rgarcia> Ashok_Malhotra: One week

Ashok Malhotra: One week

12:49:41 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/AccessControl

Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/AccessControl

12:50:24 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

12:50:42 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

12:50:49 <rgarcia> Ashok_Malhotra: By November 12th the draft will be ready for review

Ashok Malhotra: By November 12th the draft will be ready for additions

12:50:52 <timbl> Ashok, can you do it in http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl ?

Tim Berners-Lee: Ashok, can you do it in http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl ?

12:51:08 <oberger> rgarcia, I think it's ready for additions, not review ?

Olivier Berger: rgarcia, I think it's ready for additions, not review ?

12:51:12 <ericP> q+ to point out that Chris Bizer has already provided the reading list: http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/SWTSGuide/

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to point out that Chris Bizer has already provided the reading list: http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/SWTSGuide/

12:51:45 <cygri> (Ashok_Malhotra has an action https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/21 )

Richard Cyganiak: (Ashok_Malhotra has an action https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/21 )

12:52:04 <timbl> Pk, I see http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl is not covered by the group patent policy

Tim Berners-Lee: Pk, I see http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl is not covered by the group patent policy

12:52:09 <sandro> action-21?

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-21?

12:52:09 <trackbot> ACTION-21 -- Ashok Malhotra to set up wiki page on Access Control -- due 2012-11-12 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-21 -- Ashok Malhotra to set up wiki page on Access Control -- due 2012-11-12 -- OPEN

12:52:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/21

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/21

12:52:17 <rgarcia> s/ By November 12th the draft will be ready for review/ By November 12th the draft will be ready for additions/
12:52:39 <bblfish>  perhaps we just see how people feel about it

Henry Story: perhaps we just see how people feel about it

12:53:02 <rgarcia> Arnaud: Let's not predict now the effort needed for working in the document

Arnaud Le Hors: Let's not predict now the effort needed for working in the document

12:53:28 <cygri> ericP, the ChrisB resource guide hasn't been updated since 2005

Richard Cyganiak: ericP, the ChrisB resource guide hasn't been updated since 2005

12:53:31 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl

Tim Berners-Lee: http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl

12:53:35 <rgarcia> timbl: There is already a document about the topic

Tim Berners-Lee: There is already a document about the topic

12:53:39 <oberger> I think we should proceed and revise this on 12th

Olivier Berger: I think we should proceed and revise this on 12th

12:54:02 <rgarcia> Arnaud: That is a solution, we need use cases and requirements

Arnaud Le Hors: That is a solution, we need use cases and requirements

12:55:57 <rgarcia> ericP: Taking a look at Bizer's document we can inspire

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Taking a look at Bizer's document we can inspire

12:56:52 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

12:56:52 <rgarcia> Arnaud: By November 26th people must have added their contributions to the draft and we decide what to do  next

Arnaud Le Hors: By November 26th people must have added their contributions to the draft and we decide what to do next

12:57:01 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

12:57:14 <Arnaud> ack eric

Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric

12:57:14 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to point out that Chris Bizer has already provided the reading list: http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/SWTSGuide/

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to point out that Chris Bizer has already provided the reading list: http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/SWTSGuide/

12:58:00 <cygri> summary: A draft will be available by November 12th, and the WG has until November 26th to submit material for an initial draft.
12:58:20 <rgarcia> TOPIC: Client Implementations

6. Client Implementations

Summary: The group identifies different kinds of client implementation, and Sandro takes an action to start a public wiki page to collect implementations.

12:58:32 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

12:58:48 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

12:59:07 <rgarcia> cygri: There are plenty of servers and some people have/will develop clients

Richard Cyganiak: There are plenty of servers and some people have/will develop clients

12:59:25 <SteveS> q+

Steve Speicher: q+

12:59:37 <ericP> q+ to ask about domain-specific implementations

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask about domain-specific implementations

12:59:37 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

12:59:38 <rgarcia> sandro: The validator can do the client part in some ways

Sandro Hawke: The validator can do the client part in some ways

12:59:52 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

13:00:28 <rgarcia> bblfish: Has an implementation with WebID and ACL

Henry Story: Has an implementation with WebID and ACL

13:00:38 <rgarcia> cygri: But that is different

Richard Cyganiak: But that is different

13:01:28 <rgarcia> Arnaud: what's the point of the client? Testing?

Arnaud Le Hors: what's the point of the client? Testing?

13:01:41 <rgarcia> cygri: No, something more useful than simple CURL

Richard Cyganiak: No, something more useful than simple CURL

13:01:43 <oberger> cygri, needs a GUI ?

Olivier Berger: cygri, needs a GUI ?

13:01:45 <bblfish> Tabulator is good for that

Henry Story: Tabulator is good for that

13:02:07 <bblfish> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab.html

Henry Story: http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab.html

13:02:40 <rgarcia> cygri: Something like Tabulator, but wants to know if there will me more similar implementations

Richard Cyganiak: Something like Tabulator, but wants to know if there will me more similar implementations

13:02:48 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

13:03:24 <rgarcia> betehess: for me, a client is a Java library

Alexandre Bertails: for me, a client is a primarily a Java or Scala library, not that much a Web interface

13:03:25 <timbl> Three things:

Tim Berners-Lee: Three things:

13:03:29 <Arnaud> ack steves

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves

13:03:47 <timbl> 1) Fancy UI client like Tabulator

Tim Berners-Lee: 1) Fancy UI client like Tabulator

13:03:56 <timbl> 2) Cmmon client library

Tim Berners-Lee: 2) Cmmon client library

13:04:01 <rgarcia> SteveS: Need some reference implementations

Steve Speicher: Need some reference implementations

13:04:04 <timbl> 3) Test suite for testing srevers

Tim Berners-Lee: 3) Test suite for testing srevers

13:04:06 <betehess> s/ a client is a Java library/ a client is a primarily a Java or Scala library, not that much a Web interface/
13:04:10 <cygri> timbl++

Richard Cyganiak: timbl++

13:04:23 <betehess> yes, what timbl said

Alexandre Bertails: yes, what timbl said

13:04:26 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

13:04:28 <bblfish> Tabulator https://github.com/linkeddata/tabulator

Henry Story: Tabulator https://github.com/linkeddata/tabulator

13:04:31 <BartvanLeeuwen> timbl++

Bart van Leeuwen: timbl++

13:04:40 <Arnaud> ack eric

Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric

13:04:40 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask about domain-specific implementations

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask about domain-specific implementations

13:05:15 <sandro> 4) server validator (implements the server test suite)

Sandro Hawke: 4) server validator (implements the server test suite)

13:05:19 <betehess> what I'm talking about https://github.com/w3c/banana-rdf/blob/master/rdf-test-suite/src/main/scala/LinkedDataStoreTest.scala#L58

Alexandre Bertails: what I'm talking about https://github.com/w3c/banana-rdf/blob/master/rdf-test-suite/src/main/scala/LinkedDataStoreTest.scala#L58

13:05:20 <rgarcia> ericP: there will be generic clients and application-specific clients

Eric Prud'hommeaux: there will be generic clients and application-specific clients

13:05:42 <Arnaud> ack sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro

13:06:12 <SteveS> We have a set of domain specific (ALM/tool integration) at http://eclipse.org/lyo

Steve Speicher: We have a set of domain specific (ALM/tool integration) at http://eclipse.org/lyo

13:06:22 <betehess> sounds likes the current UC&R that we currently have

Alexandre Bertails: sounds like the current UC&R that we currently have

13:06:33 <oberger> SteveS, yes, we have ;)

Olivier Berger: SteveS, yes, we have ;)

13:06:40 <betehess> s/likes/like/
13:06:52 <rgarcia> sandro: The Graphstore protocol is being tested using NL test cases and there is a validator, it could be useful here

Sandro Hawke: The Graphstore protocol is being tested using NL test cases and there is a validator, it could be useful here

13:07:30 <betehess> Arnaud, what do you want to know about implementation???

Alexandre Bertails: Arnaud, what do you want to know about implementation???

13:07:52 <bblfish> where?

Henry Story: where?

13:08:05 <rgarcia> Arnaud: we already have said that we will create a web page for implementations

Arnaud Le Hors: we already have said that we will create a web page for implementations

13:08:10 <BartvanLeeuwen> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Implementations

Bart van Leeuwen: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Implementations

13:08:31 <oberger> q+

Olivier Berger: q+

13:08:57 <rgarcia> SteveS: Talks about Eclipse Lyo

Steve Speicher: Talks about Eclipse Lyo

13:09:01 <oberger> eclipse.org/lyo/

Olivier Berger: eclipse.org/lyo/

13:09:11 <oberger> http://eclipse.org/lyo/

Olivier Berger: http://eclipse.org/lyo/

13:09:21 <betehess> shouldn't we list here implementations that at least claim to comply with LDP? (not only linked data)

Alexandre Bertails: shouldn't we list here implementations that at least claim to comply with LDP? (not only linked data)

13:09:33 <bblfish> is this page public?

Henry Story: is this page public?

13:09:42 <rgarcia> ... includes frontends (ej. to bugzilla)

... includes frontends (ej. to bugzilla)

13:09:44 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

13:09:58 <rgarcia> Arnaud: it is based on OSLC

Arnaud Le Hors: it is based on OSLC

13:10:11 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

13:10:40 <rgarcia> oberger: we contributed a Perl library to Lyo (a REST client compatible with OSLC)

Olivier Berger: we contributed a Perl library to Lyo (a REST client compatible with OSLC)

13:10:45 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

13:11:31 <rgarcia> bblfish: Implementations from outside the group could be added to the implementations page

Henry Story: Implementations from outside the group could be added to the implementations page

13:11:34 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

13:11:56 <oberger> we could use ADMS.SW to fill the page

Olivier Berger: we could use ADMS.SW to fill the page

13:11:58 <rgarcia> sandro: is drafting the minimal content that implementations should provide

Sandro Hawke: is drafting the minimal content that implementations should provide

13:12:24 <oberger> https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/adms_foss/release/release100

Olivier Berger: https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/asset/adms_foss/release/release100

13:12:53 <oberger> BartvanLeeuwen, you too ?

Olivier Berger: BartvanLeeuwen, you too ?

13:13:13 <rgarcia> Arnaud: Are we going to exercise control on the web page?

Arnaud Le Hors: Are we going to exercise control on the web page?

13:13:16 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

13:13:34 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

13:14:01 <rgarcia> betehess: in favour of opening the page but leaving clear that they are LDP implementation

Alexandre Bertails: in favour of opening the page but leaving clear that they are LDP implementations

13:14:08 <Zakim> +Yves

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yves

13:14:10 <rgarcia> s/implementation/implementations/
13:15:21 <oberger> q+ to propose to rename the page to Implementation_plans

Olivier Berger: q+ to propose to rename the page to Implementation_plans

13:15:44 <betehess>  /me wouldn't open the page before we have a test suite

Alexandre Bertails: /me wouldn't open the page before we have a test suite

13:16:11 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

13:16:11 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to propose to rename the page to Implementation_plans

Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to propose to rename the page to Implementation_plans

13:16:26 <rgarcia> oberger: proposes to rename the page to Implementation_plans

Olivier Berger: proposes to rename the page to Implementation_plans

13:16:44 <timbl> Note http://www.w3.org/community/rww/wiki/Main_Page codes not have a pointer to LDP

Tim Berners-Lee: Note http://www.w3.org/community/rww/wiki/Main_Page codes not have a pointer to LDP

13:16:50 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: Linked Data Platform WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_2_-_November_2nd  --  please do add yourself, e.g., [ present+ Alexandre_Bertails ] (NO_SPACE)

Ted Thibodeau: MacTed has changed the topic to: Linked Data Platform WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_2_-_November_2nd -- please do add yourself, e.g., [ present+ Alexandre_Bertails ] (NO_SPACE)

13:17:11 <rgarcia> ACTION: sandro to create a new page open to anyone with a W3C account in the W3C wiki

ACTION: sandro to create a new page open to anyone with a W3C account in the W3C wiki

13:17:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - Create a new page open to anyone with a W3C account in the W3C wiki [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-11-09].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-24 - Create a new page open to anyone with a W3C account in the W3C wiki [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-11-09].

13:17:33 <timbl> ericp, http://www.w3.org/community/rww/wiki/Main_Page

Tim Berners-Lee: ericp, http://www.w3.org/community/rww/wiki/Main_Page

13:17:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Linked Data Platform WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_2_-_November_2nd  --

Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: Linked Data Platform WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_2_-_November_2nd --

13:17:54 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

13:18:29 <timbl> See also: http://www.w3.org/wiki/EditingData has list of implementations

Tim Berners-Lee: See also: http://www.w3.org/wiki/EditingData has list of implementations

13:18:00 <cygri> summary: The group identifies different kinds of client implementation, and Sandro takes an action to start a public wiki page to collect implementations.
13:18:23 <rgarcia> TOPIC: Test Suite and Validator

7. Test Suite and Validator

Summary: The group discusses Behaviour-Driven Development, EARL, the HTTP-in-RDF vocabulary, options for hosting a validator, and other aspects of testing and validation. Alexandre will set up a wiki page where proposals are to be collected; deadline for proposals is November 26th.

13:18:50 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

13:18:53 <rgarcia> Arnaud: what are we going to do in this respect?

Arnaud Le Hors: what are we going to do in this respect?

13:19:23 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

13:19:31 <rgarcia> Arnaud: the examples in the UCR could be included in the test suite

Arnaud Le Hors: the examples in the UCR could be included in the test suite

13:19:50 <rgarcia> timbl: Every time you take a decision, you create a test case for the resolution

Tim Berners-Lee: Every time you take a decision, you create a test case for the resolution

13:19:52 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

13:20:47 <nmihindu> q+ to say BDD would be a nice way to document the test cases

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: q+ to say BDD would be a nice way to document the test cases

13:20:59 <rgarcia> betehess: agrees to start with UCR examples

Alexandre Bertails: agrees to start with UCR examples

13:21:07 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

13:21:23 <oberger> betehess: start with a curl based suite

Alexandre Bertails: start with a curl based suite [ Scribe Assist by Olivier Berger ]

13:21:41 <rgarcia> cygri: it would be worth to have tests in an automatable format

Richard Cyganiak: it would be worth to have tests in an automatable format

13:21:49 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

13:21:57 <nmihindu> BDD frameworks - http://behaviour-driven.org/Implementations

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: BDD frameworks - http://behaviour-driven.org/Implementations

13:22:44 <oberger> SteveS, ^ ?

Olivier Berger: SteveS, ^ ?

13:22:47 <Arnaud> ack nmihindu

Arnaud Le Hors: ack nmihindu

13:22:47 <Zakim> nmihindu, you wanted to say BDD would be a nice way to document the test cases

Zakim IRC Bot: nmihindu, you wanted to say BDD would be a nice way to document the test cases

13:23:26 <rgarcia> nmihindu: test specification + automation can be done using BDD (Behaviour Driven Development)

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: test specification + automation can be done using BDD (Behaviour Driven Development)

13:23:34 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

13:23:38 <rgarcia> ... we are doing that and can provide more information

... we are doing that and can provide more information

13:23:58 <rgarcia> betehess: proposes to have a first version by some weeks

Alexandre Bertails: proposes to have a first version by some weeks

13:24:51 <rgarcia> Arnaud: do we have a test harness that we want to adopt?

Arnaud Le Hors: do we have a test harness that we want to adopt?

13:24:54 <cygri> q+ to mention http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF10/

Richard Cyganiak: q+ to mention http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF10/

13:25:17 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

13:25:19 <SteveS> q+

Steve Speicher: q+

13:25:41 <oberger> nmihindu, any URL for BDD ?

Olivier Berger: nmihindu, any URL for BDD ?

13:25:53 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

13:25:53 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to mention http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF10/

Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to mention http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF10/

13:25:59 <betehess> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior-driven_development

Alexandre Bertails: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior-driven_development

13:26:14 <rgarcia> cygri: HTTP-in-RDF may be relevant for this

Richard Cyganiak: HTTP-in-RDF may be relevant for this

13:26:35 <rgarcia> ... for HTTP interactions in test cases

... for HTTP interactions in test cases

13:26:35 <bblfish> q?

Henry Story: q?

13:27:03 <rgarcia> betehess: that is not enough for our case

Alexandre Bertails: that is not enough for our case

13:27:08 <bblfish> there is also http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-EARL10-20021206/

Henry Story: there is also http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-EARL10-20021206/

13:27:10 <rgarcia> ... and is not an implementation

... and is not an implementation

13:27:19 <bblfish> sorry there is this: http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10/

Henry Story: sorry there is this: http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10/

13:27:25 <ericP> note that EARL is used for the SPARQL tests

Eric Prud'hommeaux: note that EARL is used for the SPARQL tests

13:27:39 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

13:28:13 <rgarcia> bblfish: we should make things clear

Henry Story: we should make things clear

13:28:17 <Arnaud> ack steves

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves

13:28:28 <betehess> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior-driven_development

Alexandre Bertails: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior-driven_development

13:28:44 <oberger> q+

Olivier Berger: q+

13:28:46 <betehess> can people take 2 minutes to read the wikipedia page please?

Alexandre Bertails: can people take 2 minutes to read the wikipedia page please?

13:29:07 <rgarcia> SteveS: need requirements for any of these frameworks

Steve Speicher: need requirements for any of these frameworks

13:29:08 <ericP> SteveS, we had XSLT to pull tests out of the SPARQL spec

Eric Prud'hommeaux: SteveS, we had XSLT to pull tests out of the SPARQL spec

13:29:45 <Arnaud> ack rgarcia

Arnaud Le Hors: ack rgarcia

13:30:08 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

13:30:23 <rgarcia> rgarcia: specification and implementation can be solved through different approaches

Raúl García Castro: specification and implementation can be solved through different approaches

13:30:26 <rgarcia> oberger:

Olivier Berger:

13:30:48 <betehess> q+ to advocate for executable requirements with BDD

Alexandre Bertails: q+ to advocate for executable requirements with BDD

13:31:03 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

13:31:05 <rgarcia> oberger: add anchors (URIs) for requirements to enable traceability

Olivier Berger: add anchors (URIs) for requirements to enable traceability

13:31:12 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

13:31:12 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to advocate for executable requirements with BDD

Zakim IRC Bot: betehess, you wanted to advocate for executable requirements with BDD

13:31:17 <SteveS> ericP, we did same thing with CDF specs…pointer to xslt?

Steve Speicher: ericP, we did same thing with CDF specs…pointer to xslt?

13:31:29 <ericP> oof

Eric Prud'hommeaux: oof

13:31:33 <rgarcia> betehess: requirements and test suite should be the same and in executable format

Alexandre Bertails: requirements and test suite should be the same and in executable format

13:31:57 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

13:32:15 <nmihindu> q+

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: q+

13:32:56 <oberger> q+ to ask whether we have an open source framework reasonably usable that implements BDD (based on EARL ?)

Olivier Berger: q+ to ask whether we have an open source framework reasonably usable that implements BDD (based on EARL ?)

13:33:32 <rgarcia> timbl: A lot of people associates tests with parts of the specifications

Tim Berners-Lee: A lot of people associates tests with parts of the specifications

13:33:52 <cygri> example of UC&R: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-dawg-uc/

Richard Cyganiak: example of UC&R: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-dawg-uc/

13:35:41 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

13:36:30 <Arnaud> ack nmihindu

Arnaud Le Hors: ack nmihindu

13:36:38 <svillata> q?

Serena Villata: q?

13:36:49 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

13:37:05 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

13:37:21 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

13:37:21 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to ask whether we have an open source framework reasonably usable that implements BDD (based on EARL ?)

Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to ask whether we have an open source framework reasonably usable that implements BDD (based on EARL ?)

13:37:28 <rgarcia> nmihindu: there can be a 1-to-many correspondence between requirements and tests that ensures traceability

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: there can be a 1-to-many correspondence between requirements and tests that ensures traceability

13:37:41 <rgarcia> oberger: Anyone knows of a concrete framework?

Olivier Berger: Anyone knows of a concrete framework?

13:37:48 <betehess> I already offered time and energy there

Alexandre Bertails: I already offered time and energy there

13:38:03 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

13:38:20 <nmihindu> there are a lot of open source tools http://behaviour-driven.org/Implementations

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: there are a lot of open source tools http://behaviour-driven.org/Implementations

13:38:23 <oberger> Eclipse Lyo may provide some elements

Olivier Berger: Eclipse Lyo may provide some elements

13:38:32 <betehess> if 2 weeks is ok as schedule for the WG, I volunteer

Alexandre Bertails: if 2 weeks is ok as schedule for the WG, I volunteer

13:38:33 <oberger> based on JUnit ?

Olivier Berger: based on JUnit ?

13:38:40 <rgarcia> cygri: people in the group should provide examples so we can choose

Richard Cyganiak: people in the group should provide examples so we can choose

13:39:07 <rgarcia> ericP: I already have a test

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I already have a test

13:39:39 <ericP> https://github.com/ericprud/SWObjects/blob/sparql11/tests/test_LDP.cpp#L500

Eric Prud'hommeaux: https://github.com/ericprud/SWObjects/blob/sparql11/tests/test_LDP.cpp#L500

13:39:59 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

13:40:13 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

13:40:29 <rgarcia> bblfish: some specs use EARL for describing tests

Henry Story: some specs use EARL for describing tests

13:40:44 <rgarcia> ... then people implements tests in the way that they want

... then people implements tests in the way that they want

13:41:05 <rgarcia> q+

q+

13:41:07 <SteveS> oberger, like the opportunity to do something better if possible but Lyo is a fallback

Steve Speicher: oberger, like the opportunity to do something better if possible but Lyo is a fallback

13:41:21 <oberger> SteveS, yes, thinking bottom->up

Olivier Berger: SteveS, yes, thinking bottom->up

13:41:39 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10/]

Henry Story: http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10/]

13:41:42 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10/

Henry Story: http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10/

13:42:48 <rgarcia> q-

q-

13:43:15 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

13:43:15 <oberger> q+ to ask about validator vs test suite ?

Olivier Berger: q+ to ask about validator vs test suite ?

13:43:27 <Arnaud> ack bblfish

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish

13:43:30 <rgarcia> Arnaud: are we in progress in the test suite or the validator?

Arnaud Le Hors: are we in progress in the test suite or the validator?

13:43:48 <rgarcia> bblfish: we can start with some specifications

Henry Story: we can start with some specifications

13:43:55 <antonis> \me has to leave for the airport soon

Antonis Loizou: \me has to leave for the airport soon

13:43:58 <rgarcia> and later think about the tools

...and later think about the tools

13:44:10 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

13:44:10 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to ask about validator vs test suite ?

Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to ask about validator vs test suite ?

13:44:13 <rgarcia> s/and later think about the tools/...and later think about the tools/
13:44:44 <rgarcia> oberger: how would be the validator?

Olivier Berger: how would be the validator?

13:44:55 <jonathandray> from antonis: flying from geneva

Jonathan Dray: from antonis: flying from geneva

13:45:14 <bblfish> so my point was to write out in english some clear cases of the rules we need to prove . Perhaps we have those allready. That would help work out what expressivity we need.

Henry Story: so my point was to write out in english some clear cases of the rules we need to prove . Perhaps we have those allready. That would help work out what expressivity we need.

13:46:28 <rgarcia> sandro: a validator could be hosted (or proxied) through the W3C

Sandro Hawke: a validator could be hosted (or proxied) through the W3C

13:46:54 <oberger> sandro: the validator could be validating either servers or clients

Sandro Hawke: the validator could be validating either servers or clients [ Scribe Assist by Olivier Berger ]

13:47:10 <rgarcia> Arnaud: All the options are open at this point

Arnaud Le Hors: All the options are open at this point

13:47:23 <sandro> sandro: ... in theory, but I don't know how to do clients

Sandro Hawke: ... in theory, but I don't know how to do clients [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:48:19 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

13:48:19 <rgarcia> q+

q+

13:48:19 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

13:48:28 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

13:48:37 <rgarcia> betehess: I have some concrete proposals

Alexandre Bertails: I'd rather go with concrete proposals

13:49:01 <cygri> betehess++

Richard Cyganiak: betehess++

13:49:13 <betehess> s/I have some/I'd rather go with/
13:49:25 <Arnaud> ack rgarcia

Arnaud Le Hors: ack rgarcia

13:49:29 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

13:49:37 <betehess> we have test cases already

Alexandre Bertails: we have test cases already

13:50:37 <rgarcia> rgarcia: we can go step by step: test definition -> test machine readable -> test automatable

Raúl García Castro: we can go step by step: test definition -> test machine readable -> test automatable

13:50:44 <rgarcia> oberger: or the other way around

Olivier Berger: or the other way around

13:52:24 <oberger> betehess, do you commit to an action ?

Olivier Berger: betehess, do you commit to an action ?

13:53:17 <rgarcia> ACTION: betehess to create a wiki page for the test suite and validator proposals

ACTION: betehess to create a wiki page for the test suite and validator proposals

13:53:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Create a wiki page for the test suite and validator proposals [on Alexandre Bertails - due 2012-11-09].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-25 - Create a wiki page for the test suite and validator proposals [on Alexandre Bertails - due 2012-11-09].

13:54:06 <oberger> sandro, could you provide more details about a REST validator ?

Olivier Berger: sandro, could you provide more details about a REST validator ?

13:54:09 <rgarcia> ... the deadline for this is November 26th

... the deadline for this is November 26th

13:54:19 <oberger> around the same timeframe...

Olivier Berger: around the same timeframe...

13:54:19 <cygri> summary: The group discusses Behaviour-Driven Development, EARL, the HTTP-in-RDF vocabulary, options for hosting a validator, and other aspects of testing and validation. Alexandre will set up a wiki page where proposals are to be collected; deadline for proposals is November 26th.
13:54:20 <cygri> TOPIC: LDP Implementations Wiki Page

8. LDP Implementations Wiki Page

Summary: Sandro claims victory on his action to create an LDP Implementations wiki page.

13:54:30 <sandro> q+ to talk about implemntations page

Sandro Hawke: q+ to talk about implemntations page

13:54:40 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/wiki/LDP_Implementations

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/wiki/LDP_Implementations

13:54:42 <Arnaud> ack sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro

13:54:42 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about implemntations page

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about implemntations page

13:54:57 <cygri> q+ to suggest LDP/Implementations

Richard Cyganiak: q+ to suggest LDP/Implementations

13:55:04 <cygri> q-

Richard Cyganiak: q-

13:55:12 <cygri> sandro, why not /wiki/LDP/Implementations

Richard Cyganiak: sandro, why not /wiki/LDP/Implementations

13:55:34 <webr3> do implementations need to be full implementations, as I'm 95% sure I don't need or want LDPC's

Nathan Rixham: do implementations need to be full implementations, as I'm 95% sure I don't need or want LDPC's

13:55:50 <cygri> (assuming that /wiki/LDP will get content about our work at some point)

Richard Cyganiak: (assuming that /wiki/LDP will get content about our work at some point)

13:57:07 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

13:57:50 <oberger> hi deiu too

Olivier Berger: hi deiu too

13:57:51 <cygri> zakim, ??P6 is webr3

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, ??P6 is webr3

13:57:51 <Zakim> +webr3; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +webr3; got it

13:58:23 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/open

Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/actions/open

13:59:17 <oberger> timbl, is there a DOAP for tabulator ?

Olivier Berger: timbl, is there a DOAP for tabulator ?

13:59:30 <sandro> close action-24

Sandro Hawke: close ACTION-24

13:59:30 <trackbot> ACTION-24 Create a new page open to anyone with a W3C account in the W3C wiki closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-24 Create a new page open to anyone with a W3C account in the W3C wiki closed

13:59:53 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

14:00:00 <cygri> summary: Sandro claims victory on his action to create an LDP Implementations wiki page.
14:00:46 <oberger> sandro, maybe adding a DOAP field ?

Olivier Berger: sandro, maybe adding a DOAP field ?

14:01:42 <rgarcia> Arnaud: we won't add test cases for authentication

Arnaud Le Hors: we won't add test cases for authentication

14:02:37 <sandro> oberger, is there a problem just linking via the Project Homepage URL?

Sandro Hawke: oberger, is there a problem just linking via the Project Homepage URL?

14:02:29 <rgarcia> topic: Use Cases and Requirements Document

9. Use Cases and Requirements Document

Summary: The group tries without much success to sort out the terminology around User Stories, Use Cases, Requirements and so on. Consensus is that the current UC&R draft is too detailed, and some material should be moved to Test Cases.

14:03:17 <rgarcia> Arnaud: is not comfortable with the current state of UC&R

Arnaud Le Hors: is not comfortable with the current state of UC&R

14:03:22 <oberger> sandro, DOAP contains doap:homepage, but I think the 2 are better than only doap for non-semweb people

Olivier Berger: sandro, DOAP contains doap:homepage, but I think the 2 are better than only doap for non-semweb people

14:04:03 <sandro> oberger, I'm saying that given the project homepage, which is on this wiki page, people (and machines) should be able to find the DOAP information.

Sandro Hawke: oberger, I'm saying that given the project homepage, which is on this wiki page, people (and machines) should be able to find the DOAP information.

14:04:22 <SteveS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Nov/0010.html

Steve Speicher: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Nov/0010.html

14:04:46 <oberger> sandro, in principle, yes, that'd be great if all project homepages did :-)

Olivier Berger: sandro, in principle, yes, that'd be great if all project homepages did :-)

14:05:39 <rgarcia> Arnaud: talks about the proposed timeline for the UC&R document

Arnaud Le Hors: talks about the proposed timeline for the UC&R document

14:05:58 <rgarcia> ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Nov/0010.html

... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Nov/0010.html

14:06:06 <sandro> oberger, I'm just saying that if they're not going to do that, there's not much we can do about.    We *can* make our fancy test-results-driven implementation report get the project info via DOAP.   That'd be cool.

Sandro Hawke: oberger, I'm just saying that if they're not going to do that, there's not much we can do about. We *can* make our fancy test-results-driven implementation report get the project info via DOAP. That'd be cool.

14:06:53 <rgarcia> Arnaud: there are blocker issues and non-blocking issues

Arnaud Le Hors: there are blocker issues and non-blocking issues

14:07:23 <oberger> are we distinguishing user stories from use cases here ?

Olivier Berger: are we distinguishing user stories from use cases here ?

14:08:52 <oberger> q+ to say that user stories are redundant and use cases insufficiant

Olivier Berger: q+ to say that user stories are redundant and use cases insufficiant

14:08:55 <rgarcia> Arnaud: we should agree on which part of the current document should go into the final UC&R document

Arnaud Le Hors: we should agree on which part of the current document should go into the final UC&R document

14:09:06 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

14:09:06 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to say that user stories are redundant and use cases insufficiant

Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to say that user stories are redundant and use cases insufficiant

14:09:25 <rgarcia> oberger: there are too many user stories and too redundant

Olivier Berger: there are too many user stories and too redundant

14:10:43 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+

Ashok Malhotra: q+

14:11:03 <timbl> Sandro, http://tabulator.org/wiki/annnotation/usefulinc.com/ns/doap#id1351864713218

Tim Berners-Lee: Sandro, http://tabulator.org/wiki/annnotation/usefulinc.com/ns/doap#id1351864713218

14:11:41 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

14:11:52 <ericP> PROPOSAL: start with teh current UC&R document, giving the editor time to mark pieces as intended to be moved to another document, with an SOTD indicating that plan

PROPOSED: start with the current UC&R document, giving the editor time to mark pieces as intended to be moved to another document, with an SOTD indicating that plan

14:11:53 <Arnaud> ack ashok

Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok

14:12:02 <rgarcia> Arnaud: we should not ignore what we have already done

Arnaud Le Hors: we should not ignore what we have already done

14:12:41 <rgarcia> Ashok_Malhotra: put requirements on top and in each of them put links to user stories

Ashok Malhotra: put requirements on top and in each of them put links to user stories

14:12:41 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

14:12:50 <rgarcia> cygri: ...

Richard Cyganiak: ...

14:13:21 <rgarcia> ericP: I have drafted a new document structure

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I have drafted a new document structure

14:13:32 <ahaller2> s/teh/the/
14:14:49 <Zakim> -webr3

Zakim IRC Bot: -webr3

14:15:40 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

14:15:43 <rgarcia> Arnaud: Let's keep the current document as the basis for the work

Arnaud Le Hors: Let's keep the current document as the basis for the work

14:16:12 <oberger> q+ to suggest a matrix that points from the UC -> US

Olivier Berger: q+ to suggest a matrix that points from the UC -> US

14:17:08 <cygri> q?

Richard Cyganiak: q?

14:17:25 <rgarcia> oberger: to add pointers from the use cases to the user stories

Olivier Berger: proposes to add pointers from the use cases to the user stories

14:17:35 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

14:17:46 <rgarcia> s/to add pointers from the use cases to the user stories/proposes to add pointers from the use cases to the user stories/
14:17:51 <betehess> cygri++

Alexandre Bertails: cygri++

14:18:08 <rgarcia> cygri: Let's take a look to the UC&R documents in other W3C specifications

Richard Cyganiak: Let's take a look to the UC&R documents in other W3C specifications

14:18:08 <SteveS> q+

Steve Speicher: q+

14:18:15 <oberger> q-

Olivier Berger: q-

14:18:38 <Arnaud> ack steve

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steve

14:19:09 <rgarcia> SteveS: we already talked about this in the past

Steve Speicher: we already talked about this in the past

14:20:23 <rgarcia> Arnaud: Maybe we didn't review in detail the document when we should have

Arnaud Le Hors: Maybe we didn't review in detail the proposed template when we should have

14:20:44 <Arnaud> s/document/proposed template/
14:22:29 <betehess> Arnaud, we set a deadline (Nov 26th) for testing proposals. we didn't say if it was the same for validators/validation as well

Alexandre Bertails: Arnaud, we set a deadline (Nov 26th) for testing proposals. we didn't say if it was the same for validators/validation as well

14:22:29 <oberger> cygri, do you have concrete pointers for better documents ?

Olivier Berger: cygri, do you have concrete pointers for better documents ?

14:23:35 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

14:24:20 <betehess> q-

Alexandre Bertails: q-

14:25:08 <rgarcia> Arnaud: we can keep the current timeline in the email

Arnaud Le Hors: we can keep the current timeline in the email

14:26:53 <SteveS> Orignal UCR proposal structure http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Aug/0137.html

Steve Speicher: Orignal UCR proposal structure http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Aug/0137.html

14:26:59 <rgarcia> ... or to shift those dates

... or to shift those dates

14:28:19 <rgarcia> SteveS: will talk with Steve Battle and give feedback on the document

Steve Speicher: will talk with Steve Battle and give feedback on the document

14:28:26 <SteveS> http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-use-cases/

Steve Speicher: http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-use-cases/

14:32:26 <rgarcia> Arnaud: Let's try to figure out how to structure the document

Arnaud Le Hors: Let's try to figure out how to structure the document

14:32:54 <rgarcia> ... or someone takes the action to do so

... or someone takes the action to do so

14:34:56 <rgarcia> cygri: there is some confusion on the use of the term "requirement" in the document

Richard Cyganiak: there is some confusion on the use of the term "requirement" in the document

14:35:20 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+

Ashok Malhotra: q+

14:35:32 <Arnaud> ack ashok

Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok

14:36:15 <bblfish> q+

Henry Story: q+

14:36:41 <bblfish> q-

Henry Story: q-

14:40:43 <SteveS> PROPOSAL: Work to get UCR closer to what is found in docs like http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-use-cases/, moving other parts to primer, test cases, spec analysis, etc

PROPOSED: Work to get UCR closer to what is found in docs like http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-use-cases/, moving other parts to primer, test cases, spec analysis, etc

14:40:58 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

14:41:02 <rgarcia> +1

+1

14:41:03 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

14:41:06 <krp> +1

Kevin Page: +1

14:41:06 <betehess> +1

Alexandre Bertails: +1

14:41:08 <oberger> +1

Olivier Berger: +1

14:41:17 <SteveS> +1

Steve Speicher: +1

14:41:31 <svillata> +1

Serena Villata: +1

14:41:45 <rgarcia> Arnaud: in November 12th we will discuss the timeline

Arnaud Le Hors: in November 12th we will discuss the timeline

14:42:15 <nmihindu> +1

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1

14:42:37 <rgarcia> RESOLVED: Work to get the UC&R document closer to what is found in docs like http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-use-cases/, moving other parts to Primer, Test Cases, spec analysis, etc.

RESOLVED: Work to get the UC&R document closer to what is found in docs like http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-use-cases/, moving other parts to Primer, Test Cases, spec analysis, etc.

14:42:41 <oberger> in the meantime, we don't create issues about the UCR

Olivier Berger: in the meantime, we don't create issues about the UCR

14:43:28 <rgarcia> cygri: it is better to wait until having the new document before adding more content

Richard Cyganiak: it is better to wait until having the new document before adding more content

14:44:02 <rgarcia> ... people can still send things to mailing list

... people can still send things to mailing list

14:44:30 <cygri> summary: The group tries without much success to sort out the terminology around User Stories, Use Cases, Requirements and so on. Consensus is that the current UC&R draft is too detailed, and some material should be moved to Test Cases.
14:45:36 <Zakim> -Yves

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yves

15:05:38 <oberger> cygri, http://www-public.telecom-sudparis.eu/~berger_o/weblog/2012/08/29/debian-package-tracking-system-now-produces-rdf-description-of-source-packages/

(No events recorded for 20 minutes)

Olivier Berger: cygri, http://www-public.telecom-sudparis.eu/~berger_o/weblog/2012/08/29/debian-package-tracking-system-now-produces-rdf-description-of-source-packages/

15:05:47 <oberger> it's not the paper but has links

Olivier Berger: it's not the paper but has links

15:12:21 <betehess> http://www.w3.org/mid/5093E294.2040005@w3.org Gathering Testing and Validation proposals

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Alexandre Bertails: http://www.w3.org/mid/5093E294.2040005@w3.org Gathering Testing and Validation proposals

15:12:22 <SteveS> Scribe: SteveS

(Scribe set to Steve Speicher)

15:12:41 <SteveS> Topic: Primer

10. Primer

Summary: Discussion of purpose and audience of Primer. Olivier and SteveS agree to help move the Primer along and consider who wants to really drive/own it later.

15:12:52 <oberger> q+ to propose looking at http://patterns.dataincubator.org/book/ somehow

Olivier Berger: q+ to propose looking at http://patterns.dataincubator.org/book/ somehow

15:13:57 <SteveS> Arnaud: been talking about it a bunch, need a editor/driver for it, who is the target audience, scope of document

Arnaud Le Hors: been talking about it a bunch, need a editor/driver for it, who is the target audience, scope of document

15:14:55 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:15:14 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

15:15:14 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to propose looking at http://patterns.dataincubator.org/book/ somehow

Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to propose looking at http://patterns.dataincubator.org/book/ somehow

15:15:17 <SteveS> …should it be focused for developers or whatever

…should it be focused for developers or whatever

15:15:53 <Arnaud> ack sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro

15:15:59 <SteveS> oberger: consider looking at http://patterns.dataincubator.org/book/ as motivation for something for spec and primer

Olivier Berger: consider looking at http://patterns.dataincubator.org/book/ as motivation for something for spec and primer

15:16:39 <SteveS> sandro: main spec is really for experts, many people need something different as an on-ramp to the spec and technology

Sandro Hawke: main spec is really for experts, many people need something different as an on-ramp to the spec and technology

15:16:49 <SteveS> PROPOSAL: we should do a primer

PROPOSED: we should do a primer

15:17:00 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:17:41 <oberger> q+

Olivier Berger: q+

15:17:42 <SteveS> Arnaud: don't expect to provide all background but some good intro, the primer might be good as this

Arnaud Le Hors: don't expect to provide all background but some good intro, the primer might be good as this

15:17:46 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

15:17:49 <SteveS> …find a good primer example to follow

…find a good primer example to follow

15:19:01 <SteveS> cygri: wonder if w3c note for primer is worthwhile, maybe some other place would be good, something very focused

Richard Cyganiak: wonder if w3c note for primer is worthwhile, maybe some other place would be good, something very focused

15:19:22 <SteveS> q+

q+

15:20:18 <SteveS> ….primer may be enough but should have supporting and more live document

….primer may be enough but should have supporting and more live document

15:20:30 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

15:20:33 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+

Ashok Malhotra: q+

15:20:42 <SteveS> Arnaud: another options may make sense

Arnaud Le Hors: another options may make sense

15:20:57 <betehess> sandro, Doug said explicitly during the AC that they were focusing on client (browser) technologies

Alexandre Bertails: sandro, Doug said explicitly during the AC that they were focusing on client (browser) technologies

15:21:00 <sandro> sandro: what about webplatform.org for the primer?    I don't know if it's a good fit.

Sandro Hawke: what about webplatform.org for the primer? I don't know if it's a good fit. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:21:09 <SteveS> sandro: could use webplatform.org as well

Sandro Hawke: could use webplatform.org as well

15:21:32 <Arnaud> ack steve

Arnaud Le Hors: ack steve

15:21:33 <SteveS> oberger: be good to have the primer that is executable

Olivier Berger: be good to have the primer that is executable

15:22:01 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

15:22:15 <SteveS> ack me

ack me

15:22:15 <Arnaud> ack ashok

Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok

15:22:15 <oberger> SteveS, or at least that illustrates examples with the Gui that we need to collaborate on

Olivier Berger: SteveS, or at least that illustrates examples with the Gui that we need to collaborate on

15:22:46 <oberger> http://www.webplatform.org/

Olivier Berger: http://www.webplatform.org/

15:23:19 <oberger> BartvanLeeuwen, you want to q+ ?

Olivier Berger: BartvanLeeuwen, you want to q+ ?

15:23:21 <oberger> q?

Olivier Berger: q?

15:23:30 <SteveS> Ashok_Malhotra: RDF not part of webplatform.org yet, need someone to drive it

Ashok Malhotra: RDF not part of webplatform.org yet, need someone to drive it

15:23:51 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

15:24:08 <BartvanLeeuwen> oberger, well I don't have dialin :)

Bart van Leeuwen: oberger, well I don't have dialin :)

15:24:29 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:24:32 <oberger> BartvanLeeuwen, condelances

Olivier Berger: BartvanLeeuwen, condelances

15:24:41 <SteveS> betehess: wonder if it is too soon to talk about this, we could possibly doing something at webplatform.org

Alexandre Bertails: wonder if it is too soon to talk about this, we could possibly doing something at webplatform.org

15:24:44 <Arnaud> ack sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro

15:25:18 <SteveS> sandro: suggest we don't figure out where it ends up, just that we do one and evolve it to where it might be

Sandro Hawke: suggest we don't figure out where it ends up, just that we do one and evolve it to where it might be

15:25:57 <oberger> should we have a blog to start drafting "articles" that could end-up in a primer ?

Olivier Berger: should we have a blog to start drafting "articles" that could end-up in a primer ?

15:26:04 <SteveS> Arnaud: not sure we should rush into it but plan on it, not getting in way of near-term deliverables

Arnaud Le Hors: not sure we should rush into it but plan on it, not getting in way of near-term deliverables

15:26:22 <SteveS> maybe we should have http://LinkedDataPlatform.org

maybe we should have http://LinkedDataPlatform.org

15:26:56 <SteveS> sandro: be good to have a set of materials for various clients

Sandro Hawke: be good to have a set of materials for various clients

15:26:58 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:26:59 <oberger> SteveS, it's there isn't it ?

Olivier Berger: SteveS, it's there isn't it ?

15:27:27 <SteveS> ahaller2: be good to have purpose built for certain audiences and from the wg

Armin Haller: be good to have purpose built for certain audiences and from the wg

15:27:36 <betehess> also worried to ask people to review too many different documents

Alexandre Bertails: also worried to ask people to review too many different documents

15:28:21 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:28:29 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

15:28:38 <SteveS> Arnaud: worry that if published at webplatform.org that it doesn't show that is endorsed by the wg just some authors

Arnaud Le Hors: worry that if published at webplatform.org that it doesn't show that is endorsed by the wg just some authors

15:29:40 <SteveS> cygri: need it to help server implementers and various client applications, so the purpose built client apps may have certain needs

Richard Cyganiak: need it to help server implementers and various client applications, so the purpose built client apps may have certain needs

15:30:28 <Arnaud> ack ivan

Arnaud Le Hors: ack ivan

15:30:49 <SteveS> oberger: asks who went to LD for devs with javascript, may need focused for them

Olivier Berger: asks who went to LD for devs with javascript, may need focused for them

15:31:46 <SteveS> ivan: suggest all SemanticWeb WGs produce primers, even if the primer only good for 2 years it still would be extremely valuable

Ivan Herman: suggest all SemanticWeb WGs produce primers, even if the primer only good for 2 years it still would be extremely valuable

15:32:56 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

15:33:54 <SteveS> Arnaud: think spec is best for server side implementers and primer is for developers

Arnaud Le Hors: think spec is best for server side implementers and primer is for developers

15:34:59 <SteveS> oberger: need to make sure we treat full community client and server developers are equally important

Olivier Berger: need to make sure we treat full community client and server developers are equally important

15:35:21 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

15:35:28 <SteveS> …we often have to talk to community of various existing web service technologies

…we often have to talk to community of various existing web service technologies

15:36:35 <SteveS> betehess: wants to be able to users of client sdk and application, that they would get enough on the concepts and overview of LDP to help them out

Alexandre Bertails: wants to be able to users of client sdk and application, that they would get enough on the concepts and overview of LDP to help them out

15:38:33 <SteveS> Arnaud: since spec touches on client and server

Arnaud Le Hors: since spec touches on client and server

15:38:40 <nmihindu> agrees with betehess. Most of the time implementations of the specs are the middle-ware providers and I expect most of the developers will be using LDP libraries to build LDP applications.

Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: agrees with betehess. Most of the time implementations of the specs are the middle-ware providers and I expect most of the developers will be using LDP libraries to build LDP applications.

15:39:14 <SteveS> oberger and SteveS agree to help move primer along and consider who wants to really drive/own it laterd

oberger and SteveS agree to help move primer along and consider who wants to really drive/own it laterd

15:39:30 <cygri> summary: Discussion of purpose and audience of Primer. Olivier and SteveS agree to help move the Primer along and consider who wants to really drive/own it later.
15:40:01 <SteveS> TOPIC: Deployment Guide

11. Deployment Guide

Summary: Richard takes an action to set up a wiki page to collect deployment best practices and anti-patterns. Time permitting, this might become a WG Note.

15:40:26 <oberger> thx BartvanLeeuwen ;-)

Olivier Berger: thx BartvanLeeuwen ;-)

15:40:32 <SteveS> BartvanLeeuwen, saw it from before, thanks

BartvanLeeuwen, saw it from before, thanks

15:41:07 <BartvanLeeuwen> thx for the confirmation

Bart van Leeuwen: thx for the confirmation

15:41:15 <SteveS> cygri: some guidance on how things are deployed in a common way in that it is probably not a MUST level spec

Richard Cyganiak: some guidance on how things are deployed in a common way in that it is probably not a MUST level spec

15:42:21 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

15:42:32 <SteveS> …proposal to have a separate document to say what is a good idea if you impl a client and server, possibly move some out of the spec to this document

…proposal to have a separate document to say what is a good idea if you impl a client and server, possibly move some out of the spec to this document

15:42:48 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

15:42:55 <SteveS> Ashok_Malhotra: you could also reference this from the spec

Ashok Malhotra: you could also reference this from the spec

15:43:55 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

15:44:42 <oberger> architectural best practices ?

Olivier Berger: architectural best practices ?

15:44:46 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

15:45:12 <SteveS> SteveS: details on deployment guide like what Tim called client-to-client section?

Steve Speicher: details on deployment guide like what Tim called client-to-client section?

15:45:16 <sandro> +1 cygri lets have an LDP Best Practices spec which can include things like suggested datatypes and vocabularies, to maximize interoperability and reuse.

Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri lets have an LDP Best Practices spec which can include things like suggested datatypes and vocabularies, to maximize interoperability and reuse.

15:45:35 <SteveS> cygri: yes like this and overall guide on using LDP

Richard Cyganiak: yes like this and overall guide on using LDP

15:45:59 <SteveS> betehess: agree that be good to follow this overall guideline

Alexandre Bertails: agree that be good to follow this overall guideline

15:46:05 <oberger> q+

Olivier Berger: q+

15:46:35 <Arnaud> ack oberger

Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger

15:47:10 <betehess>  /me notes that this kind of document would make the main spec a lot lighter

Alexandre Bertails: /me notes that this kind of document would make the main spec a lot lighter

15:47:40 <SteveS> oberger: spec includes words about best practices and anti-patterns, suggest that we tweak the text on this

Olivier Berger: spec includes words about best practices and anti-patterns, suggest that we tweak the text on this

15:49:57 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

15:50:50 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

15:51:27 <SteveS> Arnaud: don't want to commit too much wg time to more docs that don't have owners

Arnaud Le Hors: don't want to commit too much wg time to more docs that don't have owners

15:52:01 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

15:52:22 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

15:52:33 <SteveS> oberger: be good to have some expert focus on the primer or such material, instead too much focus on spec

Olivier Berger: be good to have some expert focus on the primer or such material, instead too much focus on spec

15:52:52 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:54:03 <Arnaud> ack cygri

Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri

15:54:18 <SteveS> betehess: need to focus on charter deliverables, be good to start with wiki to gather some of this, use it for education and then make it more formal

Alexandre Bertails: need to focus on charter deliverables, be good to start with wiki to gather some of this, use it for education and then make it more formal

15:54:26 <oberger> deiu, we're almost done here... too late ;)

Olivier Berger: deiu, we're almost done here... too late ;)

15:55:07 <SteveS> cygri: be happy to create a wiki page for the deployment guide

Richard Cyganiak: be happy to create a wiki page for the deployment guide

15:55:43 <SteveS> Arnaud: possible to create task force if we need it, people can go off and do it and don't want to proposal it

Arnaud Le Hors: possible to create task force if we need it, people can go off and do it and don't want to proposal it

15:56:00 <SteveS> …keep it informal to begin with it and have cygri be lead maintainer of it

…keep it informal to begin with it and have cygri be lead maintainer of it

15:56:00 <betehess> q+

Alexandre Bertails: q+

15:56:37 <Arnaud> ack bete

Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete

15:56:40 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to create wiki page for Deployment Guide

ACTION: cygri to create wiki page for Deployment Guide

15:56:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Create wiki page for Deployment Guide [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-09].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-26 - Create wiki page for Deployment Guide [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-09].

15:57:12 <oberger> BartvanLeeuwen, that has been dicsussed a bit

Olivier Berger: BartvanLeeuwen, that has been dicsussed a bit

15:57:19 <Arnaud> bart, no the primer is limited in scope to the spec

Arnaud Le Hors: bart, no the primer is limited in scope to the spec

15:57:31 <Arnaud> the guide would go beyond into best practices

Arnaud Le Hors: the guide would go beyond into best practices

15:57:39 <SteveS> betehess: perhaps we can suggest same for those of interest of access control, best practices in addition if makes sense

Alexandre Bertails: perhaps we can suggest same for those of interest of access control, best practices in addition if makes sense

15:58:58 <Arnaud> q?

Arnaud Le Hors: q?

15:59:00 <cygri> summary: Richard takes an action to set up a wiki page to collect deployment best practices and anti-patterns. Time permitting, this might become a WG Note.
15:59:00 <cygri> TOPIC: Wrap-up

12. Wrap-up

15:59:22 <SteveS> Arnaud: Let's call this done

Arnaud Le Hors: Let's call this done

15:59:49 <SteveS> sandro: applauds Arnaud for chairing for 2 days (room agrees) \o/

Sandro Hawke: applauds Arnaud for chairing for 2 days (room agrees) \o/

16:00:06 <oberger> all applause

Olivier Berger: all applause

16:00:14 <oberger> BartvanLeeuwen, :-)

Olivier Berger: BartvanLeeuwen, :-)

16:00:21 <BartvanLeeuwen> people start staring at you if you do that

Bart van Leeuwen: people start staring at you if you do that

16:01:13 <oberger> we applaude each-other

Olivier Berger: we applaude each-other

16:01:23 <SteveS> Arnaud: meeting closed

Arnaud Le Hors: meeting closed

16:01:55 <SteveS> Arnaud: will have telecom on Monday, 5 November for informal review

Arnaud Le Hors: will have telecom on Monday, 5 November for informal review

16:02:33 <SteveS> sandro: suggest people to review and fixup minutes by editable wiki

Sandro Hawke: suggest people to review and fixup minutes by editable wiki

16:03:10 <SteveS> Arnaud: demos irc logs, editable wiki, ...

Arnaud Le Hors: demos irc logs, editable wiki, ...



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This revision (#10) generated 2012-11-03 18:15:17 UTC by 'rcygania2', comments: 'Added missing guest'