Weekly RDFa Taskforce teleconference -- 11 Apr 2007

rssagent, make log public

<markbirbeck> running a couple of minutes late....sorry

<markbirbeck> be there shortly

<wing> elias should be along in a few minutes as well; he got stuck in traffic

<scribe> Scribe: Steven

-> Previous minutes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Apr/0015.html

<mhausenblas> an inital step XMLLiteral

Action items

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to add issue to issues list and start discussion with previous reference and issue reference [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to include agenda item for approval of existing tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [DONE]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Elias to look for cases where plain literal is more of a common use. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action24] [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [ONGOING]

<scribe> ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [ONGOING]

Test cases

<mhausenblas> RDFa TC status

Mh: Still need some time to finalize

<mhausenblas> RDFa TC status

Mh: happy for feedback

Ben: The partitioning is great
... great to partition along host language types
... might need a grid HTML4/XHTML 1.1/XHTML 2.0
... and SVG might be another column in time

Shane: I think partitioning is great, I have an SGML DTD for HTML 4.01

Mh: Public available?

Shane: For small values of public, sure

<ShaneM> html401+rdfa SGML DTD is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/html401-rdfa-1.dtd

Ben: About conformance of existing implementations:
... the bookmarklets are almost uptodate
... Elias's parser is not up-to-date
... but we need to track which implementations are following the latest version
... Do we have an XSLT guru on the team?
... since we could update Fabian's XSLT version

Mh: I'd be happy to do it

Ben: I'm thrilled!

ACTION Michael to update Fabian's XSLT

<scribe> ACTION: Michael to update Fabian's XSLT [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

XMLLiteral

XML Literal

Ben: Do we agree with the hybrid solution?
... where mixed content gives XML Literal, otherwise a plain literal
... with an attribute to override

Mark: The hybrid isn't as good as I had originally thought
... for instance the <table> example

Ben: This is the case with RDFa attribute on the <tr>, and you don't want the <td>s. Isn't the override then the solution?

Mark: Yes, could be
... The solution has to be consistent

Ben: I don't want to reopen the whole issue. I don't see what the problem is with your current example

<tr property="foaf:name"><td>Fred</td><td>Bloggs</td></tr>

Mark: I would like the markup to be preserved, but the query to work

<EliasT> <> foaf:name "<td>Fred</td><td>Bloggs</td>"^^rdfs:XMLLiteral ?

Ben: That's what the hybrid gives us
... I don't get the problem

Elias: I agree that you can write the SPARQL queries in a defensive manner
... I don't think it should be a driver for the design of RDFa
... why is the snippet above useful to me?

Mark: Why is it not useful?

Elias: I'm OK with that output
... I don't want to go in circles again

<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask about the procedure

Mh: I thought we were going to investigate APIs
... I don't see the problem here.

Ben: I agree with Mark that RDFa brings in a whole new world of semantic markup

Elias: The question is about what should the default be. Plain, or XML literal.
... but the hybrid solution seems to make this question moot

Mark: My remaining issue is not with the markup but with the people writing the queries
... if we agree that defensive queries is the solution, then I am happy

<EliasT> Ben, could you please write a PROPOSAL text so we can agree on that and have that on the minutes?

PROPOSAL: Use the hybrid approach, and query defensively

<EliasT> Steven, but I need more explicit text...

<EliasT> :-)

<ShaneM> It would be great if the Primer could capture an example of a defensive query

<benadida> PROPOSAL: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands.

<EliasT> <> foaf:name "<td>Elias</td>"

<EliasT> <> foaf:name "Elias"^^rdfs:XMLLiteral

Ben: This is not our problem
... i.e. reserialising RDF triples as X/HTML

<benadida> PROPOSAL: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands. datatype=plain either explicit or by default strips the markup (in some way).

Mark: We need to be explicit what happens when mixed content gets recorded as Plain

<ShaneM> I would like to see whatever the decision is reflected in the description of @datatype in the xhtml-rdfa draft.

<ShaneM> if there are reserved values in the xhtml namespace for @datatype, we need todocument those.

Ben: We still need to resolve what happens when markup gets stripped

<benadida> PROPOSAL: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands. datatype?lain either explicit or by default strips the markup (in some way TBD).

Mark: I think we need all text nodes to be concatenated

<EliasT> Second

<mhausenblas> +1

<Simone> +1

<wing> +1

<ShaneM> abstain

RESOLUTION: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands. datatype?lain either explicit or by default strips the markup (in some way TBD).

<benadida> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28

Approval of raised issues

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28

Ben: Opposed?

[none]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/29

<EliasT> +1

Ben: Opposed?

[None]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/34

Ben: href on all elements. Opposed?

[None]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to update issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

@src

<ShaneM> coming back.... arrgh

Ben: an earlier proposal had src representing subject
... we rejected this
... as an object was another proposal

Mark: I sent a private email on this
... the reason src is different, is because the relationship to the document is obvious

<ShaneM> let's debate in e-mail?

Ben: We have opened the discussion, we need to discuss it, and should debate in email

<ShaneM> gotta run - on html call in 3 minutes

Ben: no resolution yet

ADJOURN

Meeting next week, Monday

- DRAFT -

Weekly RDFa Taskforce teleconference

11 Apr 2007

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