12:58:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
12:58:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-rdfa-irc
12:58:12 <Steven> rssagent, make log public
12:58:20 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #rdfa
12:58:22 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
12:58:30 <Steven> zakim, this will be rdfa
12:58:30 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
12:58:45 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly RDFa Taskforce teleconference
12:58:48 <Steven> Chair: Ben
12:58:53 <Steven> Regrets: Ralph
12:59:17 <wing> wing has joined #rdfa
12:59:30 <wing> zakim, code
12:59:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', wing
12:59:32 <wing> zakim, code?
12:59:32 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), wing
12:59:59 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has now started
13:00:06 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
13:00:40 <Zakim> +[IBMCambridge]
13:00:44 <wing> zakim, IBMCambridge is wing
13:00:44 <Zakim> +wing; got it
13:00:44 <markbirbeck> running a couple of minutes late....sorry
13:00:52 <markbirbeck> be there shortly
13:01:31 <Zakim> +McCarron
13:02:05 <mhausenblas> zakim, who is on the call?
13:02:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, wing, McCarron
13:02:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:02:19 <Simone> Zakim, Ipcaller is me
13:02:19 <Zakim> +Simone; got it
13:02:59 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:02:59 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:03:01 <Zakim> +Steven
13:03:04 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:03:59 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
13:04:46 <Zakim> -Simone
13:05:42 <Zakim> +??P9
13:05:52 <Simone> Zakim, P9 i ms
13:05:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'P9 i ms', Simone
13:05:59 <Simone> Zakim, P9 is me
13:05:59 <Zakim> sorry, Simone, I do not recognize a party named 'P9'
13:06:08 <Simone> Zakim, ??P9 is me
13:06:08 <Zakim> +Simone; got it
13:07:09 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/
13:08:49 <Zakim> +MarkB
13:10:45 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:10:50 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
13:11:08 <wing> elias should be along in a few minutes as well; he got stuck in traffic
13:11:18 <benadida> zakim, pick a victim
13:11:18 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Simone
13:11:39 <benadida> zakim, pick a victim
13:11:39 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Steven
13:11:45 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
13:12:23 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Apr/0037.html
13:13:19 <Steven> -> Previous minutes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Apr/0015.html
13:13:21 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/XMLLiteral an inital step XMLLiteral
13:13:39 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:13:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
13:13:54 <Steven> Topic: Action items
13:14:19 <Steven> ACTION: Ben to add issue to issues list and start discussion with previous reference and issue reference [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
13:14:24 <Steven> -- Done
13:14:31 <Steven> s/Done/Pending/
13:14:44 <Steven> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
13:14:51 <Steven> -- Pending
13:15:00 <Steven> ACTION: Ben to include agenda item for approval of existing tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
13:15:02 <Steven> --Done
13:15:07 <Steven> s/--/-- /
13:15:16 <Steven> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
13:15:25 <Steven> -- Pending
13:15:37 <Steven> ACTION: Elias to look for cases where plain literal is more of a common use. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]
13:15:41 <Steven> -- Pending
13:15:51 <Steven> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
13:15:55 <Steven> -- Pending
13:16:03 <Zakim> +??P15
13:16:04 <Zakim> -McCarron
13:16:05 <Steven> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
13:16:09 <Steven> -- Pending
13:16:14 <ShaneM> zakim, ??P15 is ShaneM 
13:16:14 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
13:16:20 <Steven> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
13:16:27 <Steven> -- Pending
13:16:38 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:16:40 <Steven> -- Ongoing
13:16:49 <Steven> ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
13:17:07 <Steven> -- Pending
13:17:20 <Steven> ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]
13:17:31 <Steven> -- Ongoing
13:18:14 <Steven> Topic: Test cases
13:18:37 <Steven> zakim, mute me
13:18:37 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
13:18:53 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Apr/0013 RDFa TC status
13:19:03 <Steven> Mh: Still need some time to finalize
13:19:04 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Apr/0013 RDFa TC status
13:19:29 <Steven> ... happy for feedback
13:19:40 <Steven> Ben: The partitioning is great
13:19:55 <Steven> ... great to partition along host language types
13:20:23 <Steven> ... might need a grid HTML4/XHTML 1.1/XHTML 2.0
13:20:36 <Steven> ... and SVG might be another column in time
13:21:15 <Steven> Shane: I think partitioning is great, I have an SGML DTD for HTML 4.01
13:21:26 <Steven> Mh: Public available?
13:21:32 <Steven> Shane: For small values of public, sure
13:21:49 <ShaneM> html401+rdfa SGML DTD is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/html401-rdfa-1.dtd 
13:22:56 <Steven> Ben: About conformance of existing implementations:
13:23:03 <Steven> ... the bookmarklets are almost uptodate
13:23:19 <Steven> ... Elias's parser is up-to-date
13:23:32 <Steven> s/is/is not/
13:23:57 <Steven> ... but we need to track which implementations are following the latest version
13:25:03 <Steven> Ben: Do we have an XSLY guru on the team?
13:25:08 <Steven> s/Y/T/
13:25:35 <Steven> ... since we could update Fabian's XSLT version
13:25:43 <Steven> Mh: I'd be happy to do it
13:26:19 <Steven> Ben: I'm thrilled!
13:26:40 <Steven> ACTION Michael to update Fabian's XSLT
13:26:56 <Steven> ACTION: Michael to update Fabian's XSLT
13:27:00 <Steven> ack me
13:27:12 <EliasT> EliasT has joined #rdfa
13:27:21 <wing> zakim, wing holds wing, EliasT
13:27:24 <Zakim> +wing, EliasT; got it
13:28:08 <EliasT> Topic: XMLLiteral
13:28:11 <Steven> Topic: XML Literal
13:28:53 <Steven> Ben: Do we agree with the hybrid solution
13:29:00 <Steven> s/tion/tion?/
13:29:36 <Steven> ... where mixed content gives XML Lieteral, otherwise a plain literal
13:29:41 <Steven> ... with an attribute to override
13:29:50 <Steven> s/Liet/Lit/
13:30:22 <Steven> Mark: The hybrid isn't as good as I had originally thought
13:30:33 <Steven> ... for instance the <table> example
13:31:03 <mhausenblas> q+ to ask about the procedure
13:31:18 <Steven> Ben: This is the case with RDFa attribute on the <tr>, and you don't want the <td>s. Isn't the override then the solution?
13:31:22 <Steven> Mark: Yes, could be
13:32:00 <Steven> Mark: The solution has to be consistent
13:32:48 <Steven> Ben: I don't want to reopen the whole issue. I don't see what the problem is with your current example
13:33:44 <Steven> <tr property="foaf:name"><td>Fred</td><td>Bloggs</td></tr>
13:34:07 <Steven> Mark: I would like the markup to be preserved, but the query to work
13:34:10 <EliasT> <> foaf:name "<td>Fred</td><td>Bloggs</td>"^^rdfs:XMLLiteral ?
13:34:13 <Steven> zakim, mute me
13:34:13 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
13:34:34 <Steven> Ben: That's what the hybrid gives us
13:35:06 <Steven> ... I don't get the problem
13:35:46 <Steven> Elias: I agree that you can write the SPARQL queries in a defensive manner
13:35:58 <Steven> ... I don't think it should be a driver for the design of RDFa
13:36:19 <Steven> ... why is the snippet above useful to me?
13:36:30 <mhausenblas> q?
13:36:46 <Steven> Mark: Why is it not useful?
13:37:15 <Steven> Elias: I'm OK with that output
13:37:53 <ShaneM>  zakim, mute me
13:37:53 <Zakim> ShaneM should now be muted
13:38:07 <Steven> ... I don't want to go in cirlces again
13:38:24 <Steven> s/irlc/ircl/
13:38:26 <mhausenblas> ack me
13:38:26 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask about the procedure
13:39:00 <Steven> Mh: I thought we were going to investigate APIs
13:39:07 <Steven> ... I don't see the problem here.
13:39:45 <Steven> Ben: I agree with Mark that RDFa brings in a whole new world of semantic markup
13:40:22 <Steven> Elias: The question is about what should the default be. Plain, or XML literal.
13:40:38 <Steven> ... but the hybrid solution seems to make this question moot
13:41:13 <Steven> Mark: My remaining issue is not with the markup but with the people writing the queries
13:41:33 <Steven> q+
13:42:24 <Steven> ... if we agree that defensive queries is the solution, then I am happy
13:42:27 <Steven> ack me
13:43:13 <EliasT> Ben, could you please write a PROPOSAL text so we can agree on that and have that on the minutes?
13:43:37 <Steven> PROPOSAL: Use the hybrid approach, and query defensivbely
13:43:54 <EliasT> Steven, but I need more explicit text...
13:43:59 <EliasT> :-)
13:44:05 <ShaneM>  It would be great if the Primer could capture an example of a defensive query
13:44:38 <benadida> PROPOSAL: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands.
13:45:47 <EliasT> <> foaf:name "<td>Elias</td>"
13:45:50 <Steven> s/vb/v/
13:45:56 <EliasT> <> foaf:name "Elias"^^rdfs:XMLLiteral
13:46:04 <Steven> Ben: This is not our problem
13:46:30 <Steven> ... i.e. reserialising RDF triples as X/HTML
13:47:40 <benadida> PROPOSAL: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands. datatype=plain either explicit or by default strips the markup (in some way).
13:47:45 <Steven> Mark: We need to be explicit what happens when mixed content gets recorded as Plain
13:47:47 <ShaneM>  I would like to see whatever the decision is reflected in the description of @datatype in the xhtml-rdfa draft.
13:48:19 <ShaneM>  if there are reserved values in the xhtml namespace for @datatype, we need to ocument those.
13:48:36 <Steven> s/ oc/doc/
13:49:18 <Steven> Ben: We still need to resolve what happens when markup gets stripped
13:49:29 <benadida> PROPOSAL: we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands. datatype?lain either explicit or by default strips the markup (in some way TBD).
13:49:36 <Steven> Mark: I think we need all text nodes to be concatenated
13:49:56 <EliasT> Second
13:49:58 <mhausenblas> +1
13:50:01 <Simone> +1
13:50:02 <wing> +1
13:50:14 <ShaneM>  abstain
13:50:22 <Steven> RESOLVED:  we use a hybrid approach: no markup gives a plain literal by default, markup gives an XMLLiteral by default, and datatype can override it in either direction with shorthands. datatype?lain either explicit or by default strips the markup (in some way TBD).
13:50:24 <ShaneM>  zakim, unmute me
13:50:24 <Zakim> ShaneM should no longer be muted
13:51:01 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28
13:51:05 <Steven> Topic: Approval of raised issues
13:51:25 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28
13:51:31 <Steven> Ben: Opposed?
13:51:34 <Steven> [none]
13:51:44 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/29
13:51:56 <EliasT> +1
13:52:00 <Steven> Ben: Opposed?
13:52:03 <Steven> [None]
13:52:10 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/34
13:52:26 <Steven> Ben: href on all elements. Opposed?
13:52:33 <Steven> [None]
13:52:53 <Steven> ACTION: Ben to update issues list
13:53:26 <Steven> Topic: @src
13:53:26 <Zakim> -ShaneM
13:53:48 <ShaneM>  coming back.... arrgh
13:53:56 <Steven> Ben: an earlier proposal had src representing subject
13:54:01 <Zakim> +??P15
13:54:02 <Steven> ... we rejected this
13:54:11 <ShaneM>  zakim, ??P15 is ShaneM
13:54:11 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
13:54:21 <Steven> ... as an object was another proposal
13:54:43 <Steven> Mark: I sent a private email on this
13:55:03 <Steven> ... the reason src is different, is because the relationship to the document is obvious
13:55:40 <Steven> q+
13:56:57 <Steven> ack me
13:57:24 <ShaneM>  let's debate in e-mail?
13:57:31 <Steven> Ben: We have opened the discussion, we need to discuss it, and should debate in email
13:57:39 <ShaneM>  gotta run - on html call in 3 minutes
13:57:41 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
13:57:44 <Steven> ... no resolution yet6
13:57:47 <Steven> s/6/
13:57:55 <Steven> ADJOURN
13:58:01 <Steven> Meeting next week, Monday
13:58:53 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:00:18 <Zakim> -Steven
14:00:19 <Zakim> -wing
14:00:20 <Zakim> -MarkB
14:00:22 <Zakim> -Simone
14:00:24 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
14:00:27 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
14:00:29 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has ended
14:00:31 <Zakim> Attendees were mhausenblas, McCarron, Simone, Steven, Ben_Adida, MarkB, ShaneM, wing, EliasT
14:01:45 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
14:01:51 <wing> wing has left #rdfa
14:18:16 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #rdfa
14:57:07 <Simone> Simone has left #rdfa
15:00:27 <benadida> benadida has left #rdfa
16:01:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:01:33 <EliasT> EliasT has left #rdfa