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Derived from RRSAgent minutes


See also: IRC log


jasnell, Arnaud, rhiaro, elf-pavlik, tantek, +1.514.554.aaaa, evanpro, +972.3.645.aabb, jessica_lily, Sandro, +1.314.705.aacc, wilkie, Lloyd_Fassett_, AdamB, +, dromasca, bblfish, hhalpin, Ann, +1.773.614.aaee, ShaneHud_, aaronpk, +1.773.614.aaff, tiborKatelbach, Doug_Schepers
harry, ShaneHud_


RESOLVED: Approve minutes of 18 November 2014


<trackbot> Date: 25 November 2014

<jasnell> zakim?

<jasnell> sorry… how do I check to see if I’m on zakim again?

<cwebber2> dialing in

<cwebber2> I’m having trouble connecting

<cwebber2> trying again

<ShaneHudson> So am I

<cwebber2> I can connect but I get no prompt

<ShaneHudson> Same thing here, no one is saying “you have connected to..”

<cwebber2> I think SIP is screwed up

<cwebber2> is anyone else in on SIP succesfully?

<jessica_lily> I’m on sip

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, me

<cwebber2> hm :\

<elf-pavlik> jessica_lily, no +

<jessica_lily> oh

<jessica_lily> every week >.<

<cwebber2> I can dial in to other services

<ShaneHudson> Still nothing here :(

<Loqi> *sniff*

<Loqi> harry: tantek left you a message on 11/21 at 12:08pm: I hear you’re doing a good job of nudging WG mailing list discussions to be more on-topic and in-scope.

<bblfish> thanks Arnaud

<ShaneHudson> doesn’t seem to be responding

<elf-pavlik> ShaneHudson, it took me 2 tries

<ShaneHudson> elf-pavlik: I’ve tried about 20 so far lol

<Arnaud> ShaneHudson: are you joining?

<ShaneHudson> harry: I will scribe if I can get in. Currently can’t join, not sure why

<harry> scribe: harry

<evanpro> Thanks harry

<ShaneHudson> harry: No, using the telephone app. Normally works fine

<ShaneHudson> It is called Telephone

<Arnaud> PROPOSED: approve minutes of 18 November 2014

<evanpro> +1


<wilkie> +1

<elf-pavlik> +1

<ShaneHudson> +1

<jessica_lily> +1

<Arnaud> RESOLVED: approve minutes of 18 November 2014

<cwebber2> +1

Arnaud: Next meeting Dec 2nd
… a word about editing minutes
… I understand its painful
… RRSAgent generates minutes
… we’d always have to go through Team Contact to get raw text
… an ability to edit minutes via HTTP PUT might work
… still experimental


<dromasca> ??P14 is me

Arnaud: what we are doing now to generate minutes is too much hassle

<Loqi> Arnaud has 1 karma

Arnaud: re putting HTML to wiki-page
… but we must have to a proper record
… we need to clean, as scribe can’t do a perfect job

<scribe> … in process of handing geekiness

We could ask RRSagent to generate wikipages via PanDoc?

tantek: Wikis are pretty easy, might be easier than HTTP PUT
… that would allow anyone to fix small problems

pandoc is pretty good!

<cwebber2> last one is me

<ShaneHud_> Right I’m in. Had a VPN issue. Had to reconnect IRC too

<cwebber2> hm

Arnaud: But cutting and pasting
… the wikipage is too painful

<elf-pavlik> where do we find code for rrsagent?

How about using RRSAgent to produce native wiki-pages?

Arnaud: Systeam is busy, couldn’t hurt



<ShaneHud_> harry: Yeah sure, do I just do scribe: shane?

<scribe> scribe: ShaneHud_

<scribe> scribenick: ShaneHud_

<AnnBassetti> Pandoc:

<harry> EvanPro: Done with mine

<harry> tantek: I’m done with mine

Arnaud: Actions 4 and 13 can be closed

<elf-pavlik> evanpro, can you add link to ?

(Correct me if I get names wrong)


jasnell: Can close once people have reviewed the draft, plan to review next week

<evanpro> elf-pavlik, you mean add a link to the Twitter API page?


<elf-pavlik> yes, so everyone can just follow nose…

<jasnell> People can check out the extended vocabulary changes by cloning the repo from github and checking out the “extended-vocabulary” branch.

Arnaud: Issue 11 should not be currently raised, what needs to happen?

<harry> Yes, can probably do that

<elf-pavlik> +1 open

evanpro: Since we are working on the namespace, issue 11 should be opened

harry: Assign to me

<harry> No problem, just had issue re Content Negotiation

<harry> and serving the right headers etc last time I did this dance

<harry> so feel free to assign this issue to me and we’ll see if we can make it happen.

Arnaud: The right thing to do may be to close issue 11 and create an action for harry to follow up

<elf-pavlik> sounds good!

<wilkie> rhiaro: :(

<AnnBassetti> Sandro advises that Harry does not need SysTeam to do that; rather, find someone who has done it before .. such as <who was it>

<elf-pavlik> rhiaro, i can give you access to skype account with some credits you could use (firend donated it to me)

<harry> ACTION: hhalpin to set up JSON-LD context for namespace [recorded in]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Set up json-ld context for namespace [on Harry Halpin - due 2014-12-02].

<harry> s/<who was it>/Greg Kellogg

<harry> Of course, I might add this whole dance with conneg and serving media types explains why no actual web developers do this sort of thing.

<harry> Which means, in general, making it normative is usually a bad idea IMHO

<evanpro> I can’t do the 4th and 5th

<harry> but for consistency’s sake it should be done

Dates for f2f

<bblfish> where is this meeting taking place?

<evanpro> Thanks, sorry about that

<AnnBassetti> /

<cwebber2> 4th and 5h of… march was it?

Arnaud: MIT will welcome us. March 10/11/12 may work?

<evanpro> Yes, great for me

<evanpro> It’s SxSW that week

<cwebber2> works for me, the next week though

<cwebber2> is even better

The downsides of not working for a large company is not being able to simply fly to MIT haha

<cwebber2> week of march 15 is even better because it’s the week before libreplanet

<cwebber2> then I don’t have to head to boston twice :)

<wilkie> that would be good for me

Arnaud: Adding second week of March to Doodle poll

tantek: Add week after that?

<harry> How many Europeans would come to a f2f in MIT?

<rhiaro> I would!


Arnaud: evanpro will give us an update on Foursquare

<tantek> who just joined?

evanpro: Not taking good or bad lessons, just trying to understand the APIs
… Foursquare lets users develop relationships with places as well as people
… Uses OAuth2, partially based on Twitter’s mechanism

<jessica_lily> harry: nope, costs too much to fly from UK to boston. I would if it was around the same time as another event (e.g. libreplanet)

evanpro: Concept of user and person, as well as venue and place. Business, restuarants. Outdoors areas, neighbourhoods, airport gates

<cwebber2> jessica_lily and I will probably be in boston for libreplanet, which is the 21-22 of march

<cwebber2> so if it was the previous week

<cwebber2> we could be in for both

evanpro: Users can create tips and lists of places
… Lists managed by individual users
… Mechanisms for special deals at venues
… Link events to venues, play at theatre

<cwebber2> it might be a lot harder us to attend then if the week of the 9th, but week of the 16th is much easier

evanpro: Events have specific time and place
… About 105 endpoints, broad API

<tantek> seems like a common problem - so many endpoints (Twitter, Foursquare)

evanpro: A lot of the same endpoints for different types. Content managed by create/read tips/checkins/lists
… Geographical vocab is created by users

<sandro> tantek, I wonder if they view it as a problem

<tantek> /me welcome back rhiaro

evanpro: Lots of endpoints for managing places
… Each user has a number of feed endpoints for each type of content

<tantek> sandro - as a *developer* - more endpoints = more complexity

<tantek> in both cases, the endpoints were likely accreted over time.

evanpro: Inbox where they can see checkins by friends and people they follow
… Social graph endpoints, partially because it is sensitive it is two way - requires approval between users. Contrast with Twitter’s 1 way social graph

<tantek> still - perhaps there’s an API design anti-pattern here we can learn from

<tantek> and learn to avoid

evanpro: Users can create responses to types of content, comments and likes on most types
… Little bit of resharing but not very common

<tantek> you can also follow humans that have over 1000 “friends”

<sandro> tantek, I agree it seems that way upfront, but it MIGHT be that funneling that complexity through fewer endpoints doesn’t really simplify but just moves it around. (I’m exploring this idea – I don’t really believe it.)

evanpro: Some non-human things, such as following lists or multi venue brand pages like Starbucks or McDonalds

<tantek> or rather, Foursquare turns people into “brands” when they get 1000+ friends

evanpro: Some search endpoints for users and content
… Content reporting endpoints

<tantek> e.g. Scoble

<aaronpk> but Scoble *is* a brand :P

evanpro: Some endpoints for managing, reading and updating user profile
… Brand management endpoints
… Owner of venue can claim and manage venue information. Hours, contact, specials, events etc

<AdamB> there are a lot of diff use cases those end points are suporting

evanpro: Not quite finished looking at that
… Page is up on wiki and I would welcome any edits

<cwebber2> I doubt we’re going to need so many endpoints, since thsi looks like almost all of this probably would work with posting activities

evanpro: Any questions?

<cwebber2> but this is interesting for at least what vocabulary we need

tantek: Did you notice any patterns? So many duplicated endpoints for different content types

evanpro: Really good question, both Twitter and Foursquare API have hundreds of endpoints, some redundant. Suggestions, deprecation etc through APIs
… Version management in API

<elf-pavlik> we could also look at version management of verious APIs

evanpro: Design principle appears to be 85 endpoints makes it easy to just add another
… Instead of restructure entire mechansim

<AdamB> have to keep backwards compatibility if you make changes

<AdamB> so easier to add new ones

sandro: Continuing on, when I see these endpoints I see them as being very simple operations on a data. Each being like 3 lines of code.
… As I try to picture the database, I want to know what the fields are on each of the entities. Maybe not in scope of particular investigation.
… Bits of the data models are bubbling up as endpoints, so to speak
… Are they documented anywhere?

<elf-pavlik> sandro, i want to propose it for IG Vocabulary TF

sandro: Text, venue, date, list of feedback etc

Sorry, missed that bit

<evanpro> ACTION evanpro link to entity description in Foursquare API

<trackbot> Error finding ‘evanpro’. You can review and register nicknames at <>.

<AdamB> none of these systems have simple DBs at all

sandro: Are there any that aren’t actually database operations?

evanpro: Yes, most are CRUD
… Relationship, reading, updating object in system
… Foursquare is not a general purpose API, it is for a very specific geographically oriented social networks. No groups or videos

<evanpro> Arnaud: thanks,s orry

<evanpro> ACTION eprodrom link to entity description in Foursquare API

<trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Link to entity description in foursquare api [on Evan Prodromou - due 2014-12-02].

<sandro> Hmmm, venues/trending is likely more sophisticated than CRUD

bblfish: If you look at these and remove the CRUD things you may be able to reduce by a factor of 6 by a HTTP verb instead of endpoint for each object
… POST on every endpoint, could be using DELETE etc.

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to note Foursquare API does cover “notes” (e.g. attached to a checkin, but used to allow self-standing as “shouts”), “photos” (also attached to a checkin), thus

bblfish: Better caching

<AnnBassetti> (bblfish = Henry Story)

tantek: In watching the evolution of foursquare, the trend is the evolve to be generic.
… Every photo posting service evolves to videos
… Foursquare might add videos
… Pretty clear they are growing their API

<cwebber2> btw, this brings up an important point

<bblfish> if I can summarise: there are a lot of repeating end points such as search, delete, add, search, etc…. This looks like a duplication of what HTTP verbs do. There is POST for create, DELETE for deleting a resource, PATCH for changing, PUT for replacing, and even WebDav SEARCH

tantek: So we should assume that’s their path

<cwebber2> we haven’t really spoken about how to post media

Arnaud: Start specialised then expand

<cwebber2> such as images/video

<bblfish> so one could reduce the endpoints by 5 or 6 probably just by using verbs


<cwebber2> whether or not that would be a separate submission from the activity post

elf-pavlik: Facebook API works in concept of social graph
… Provides HTTP client for explorer tool
… Requires authentication
… Nodes are entities - user, page etc.
… Some have screen names
… 12 digit id or username
… The nodes have edit
… User has events and different edges
… when you access graph api, you use id and each node has a link to the facebook url
… Reminds me of using id and url
… id could be endpoint api, and url could be CDN etc
… You can make requests and return a default set of fields, can define which fields you want
… Embed other resources, top 5 posts for example
… enumerations for vocab

<Loqi> it’ll be ok

elf-pavlik: I didn’t do much on collections and paging yet

<sandro> Oh, very interesting: backdated_time_granularity(photo): year, month, day, hour, min, none

elf-pavlik: HTTP verbs, GET POST and DELETE
… GET request to API for metadata

<aaronpk> flickr also supports the idea of date granularity

elf-pavlik: Some mismatch between documentation and metadata

<aaronpk> but fewer options: “Y-m-d H:i:s”, “Y-m”, “Y” and “Circa”

elf-pavlik: Lots of entities, linked to pages
… subtypes
… Page categories have main categories and sub categories. Listed 6 groupings, some more details on IG
… A comment or post can have like, comment, share is UI but not API response.
… There is an actions array. Cannot make a POST to submit like
… Looks like an hypermedia attempt, but not fully implemented
… Graph search can let you say “My friends who live in Paris” but API doesn’t provide that
… Examples on wiki such as two people being friends or liking a page
… Start with id of entity followed by the entity type
… Response to events allows POST event with maybe or decline or attending
… You can get edges in multiple ways such as /feed/links or /me/events etc. (did I get that right?)

<tantek> how does “interested” or “saved” show up in the Events API?

<sandro> so great, thank you very much elf-pavlik

<bblfish> Thanks Elf

Arnaud: Thank you Elf and Evan. Out of time now

<AnnBassetti> +1

<evanpro> +1 thanks Arnaud

<tantek> i.e. FB UI has ability to “save” an event, or indicate that you’re interested. wondering how you do that with the API

Arnaud: Move on to Activity Streams

<tantek> jasnell: I’ll try to get those pull-requests to fix the microformats examples etc. in the extended-vocab page sometime today

jasnell: Follow on from conversations about the common implementations of types and verbs



jasnell: I have created the drafts link on github repo
… Significant expansion of object types
… Need basic level of interoperbility
… At this point, does the group feel it is heading in the right direction?

evanpro: I feel it is moving down a great path. One comment regarding keeping synonyms. Does the structure of vocab need us to do that?

<tantek> hmm - people treat favorite & like differently sometimes - experience in IndieWebCamp and analysis of silos

evanpro: There may have been sense in AS1.0 but do we need to keep them for 2.0

<tantek> and sometimes fave & like are treated the same in by people’s sites

evanpro: Posting a blog entry to my blog, the object is the entry and target is the blog
… Like and favourite are often synonyms but naunced differences
… 500px has likes and hearts
… Not clear whether we can collapse it

<Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss IG Vocabulary TF

<tantek> see and for some differences

<tantek> in particular:

<AdamB> we also support “Adam recommended the answer …..”

elf-pavlik: Coordinating with IG, like to work on mapping with alternatives

<oshepherd> While on the subject, As I’ve discussed with tantek (and will E-Mail the list), I’m in favor of dropping the “post” activity in favor of just putting the object there

<tantek> see silo examples here:


<Loqi> cwebber2 has 7 karma

<AdamB> well job on the examples james

jasnell: Microformat examples are currently sketchy. Loose some of the information

<cwebber2> rhiaro: :)

jasnell: Need folks to look at AS and map to Microformats

<AdamB> in addition to like/favorite

tantek: Thank you jasnell, will commit to reviewing the MF examples

<cwebber2> the examples are super nice

<cwebber2> tantek is fading out here

We’ve lost you tantek

<cwebber2> tantek got swallowed by a wave

<elf-pavlik> tantek, can you type it ?

tantek said something about MF not needing the extra info

<tantek> right, in some cases, there is no “loss” per se in converting to microformats, but rather, may be areas where indiewebcamp etc. found “YAGNI” in ActivityStreams - that is, features, properties, aspects that were just unnecessary in practice when posting to the social web.

<tantek> YAGNI:

<cwebber2> great meeting!

<evanpro> Thanks Arnaud!

Arnaud: Closing call, thank you everybody for joining

<cwebber2> and yes thanks ShaneHud_ :)

You’re welcome

<tantek> ShaneHudson++ for minuting!

<Loqi> ShaneHudson has 14 karma

<cwebber2> ShaneHud_: ++

<elf-pavlik> thanks Arnaud++ ShaneHud_++

<wilkie> thanks!

<cwebber2> oh ShaneHud_++

<tiborKatelbach> thanks bye

<tantek> thanks Arnaud!

Thanks. Can anyone point me towards how to sort out the minutes?

<tantek> Shane, pretty sure that’s documented on our wiki page

<tantek> if not, let’s start an FAQ :)

<elf-pavlik> ShaneHud_

<tantek> thanks elf-pavlik !

<Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting

elf-pavlik: cheers

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: hhalpin to set up JSON-LD context for namespace [recorded in]