Derived from RRSAgent minutes
See also: IRC log
- jasnell, Arnaud, rhiaro, elf-pavlik, tantek, +1.514.554.aaaa, evanpro, +972.3.645.aabb, jessica_lily, Sandro, +1.314.705.aacc, wilkie, Lloyd_Fassett_, AdamB, +126.96.36.199.aadd, dromasca, bblfish, hhalpin, Ann, +1.773.614.aaee, ShaneHud_, aaronpk, +1.773.614.aaff, tiborKatelbach, Doug_Schepers
- harry, ShaneHud_
RESOLVED: Approve minutes of 18 November 2014
<trackbot> Date: 25 November 2014
<jasnell> sorry… how do I check to see if I’m on zakim again?
<cwebber2> dialing in
<cwebber2> I’m having trouble connecting
<cwebber2> trying again
<ShaneHudson> So am I
<cwebber2> I can connect but I get no prompt
<ShaneHudson> Same thing here, no one is saying “you have connected to..”
<cwebber2> I think SIP is screwed up
<cwebber2> is anyone else in on SIP succesfully?
<jessica_lily> I’m on sip
<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, me
<cwebber2> hm :\
<elf-pavlik> jessica_lily, no +
<jessica_lily> every week >.<
<cwebber2> I can dial in to other services
<ShaneHudson> Still nothing here :(
<Loqi> harry: tantek left you a message on 11/21 at 12:08pm: I hear you’re doing a good job of nudging WG mailing list discussions to be more on-topic and in-scope.
<bblfish> thanks Arnaud
<ShaneHudson> firstname.lastname@example.org doesn’t seem to be responding
<elf-pavlik> ShaneHudson, it took me 2 tries
<ShaneHudson> elf-pavlik: I’ve tried about 20 so far lol
<Arnaud> ShaneHudson: are you joining?
<ShaneHudson> harry: I will scribe if I can get in. Currently can’t join, not sure why
<harry> scribe: harry
<evanpro> Thanks harry
<ShaneHudson> harry: No, using the telephone app. Normally works fine
<ShaneHudson> It is called Telephone
<Arnaud> PROPOSED: approve minutes of 18 November 2014 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-18-minutes
<Arnaud> RESOLVED: approve minutes of 18 November 2014 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-18-minutes
Arnaud: Next meeting Dec 2nd
… a word about editing minutes
… I understand its painful
… RRSAgent generates minutes
… we’d always have to go through Team Contact to get raw text
… an ability to edit minutes via HTTP PUT might work
… still experimental
<dromasca> ??P14 is me
Arnaud: what we are doing now to generate minutes is too much hassle
<Loqi> Arnaud has 1 karma
Arnaud: re putting HTML to wiki-page
… but we must have to a proper record
… we need to clean, as scribe can’t do a perfect job
<scribe> … in process of handing geekiness
We could ask RRSagent to generate wikipages via PanDoc?
tantek: Wikis are pretty easy, might be easier than HTTP PUT
… that would allow anyone to fix small problems
pandoc is pretty good!
<cwebber2> last one is me
<ShaneHud_> Right I’m in. Had a VPN issue. Had to reconnect IRC too
Arnaud: But cutting and pasting
… the wikipage is too painful
<elf-pavlik> where do we find code for rrsagent?
How about using RRSAgent to produce native wiki-pages?
Arnaud: Systeam is busy, couldn’t hurt
<ShaneHud_> harry: Yeah sure, do I just do scribe: shane?
<scribe> scribe: ShaneHud_
<scribe> scribenick: ShaneHud_
<AnnBassetti> Pandoc: http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/
<harry> EvanPro: Done with mine
<harry> tantek: I’m done with mine
Arnaud: Actions 4 and 13 can be closed
<elf-pavlik> evanpro, can you add link to http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/13 ?
(Correct me if I get names wrong)
jasnell: Can close once people have reviewed the draft, plan to review next week
<evanpro> elf-pavlik, you mean add a link to the Twitter API page?
<elf-pavlik> yes, so everyone can just follow nose…
<jasnell> People can check out the extended vocabulary changes by cloning the repo from github and checking out the “extended-vocabulary” branch.
Arnaud: Issue 11 should not be currently raised, what needs to happen?
<harry> Yes, can probably do that
<elf-pavlik> +1 open
evanpro: Since we are working on the namespace, issue 11 should be opened
harry: Assign to me
<harry> No problem, just had issue re Content Negotiation
<harry> and serving the right headers etc last time I did this dance
<harry> so feel free to assign this issue to me and we’ll see if we can make it happen.
Arnaud: The right thing to do may be to close issue 11 and create an action for harry to follow up
<elf-pavlik> sounds good!
<wilkie> rhiaro: :(
<AnnBassetti> Sandro advises that Harry does not need SysTeam to do that; rather, find someone who has done it before .. such as <who was it>
<elf-pavlik> rhiaro, i can give you access to skype account with some credits you could use (firend donated it to me)
<harry> ACTION: hhalpin to set up JSON-LD context for namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-social-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Set up json-ld context for namespace [on Harry Halpin - due 2014-12-02].
<harry> s/<who was it>/Greg Kellogg
<harry> Of course, I might add this whole dance with conneg and serving media types explains why no actual web developers do this sort of thing.
<harry> Which means, in general, making it normative is usually a bad idea IMHO
<evanpro> I can’t do the 4th and 5th
<harry> but for consistency’s sake it should be done
Dates for f2f
<bblfish> where is this meeting taking place?
<evanpro> Thanks, sorry about that
<cwebber2> 4th and 5h of… march was it?
Arnaud: MIT will welcome us. March 10/11/12 may work?
<evanpro> Yes, great for me
<evanpro> It’s SxSW that week
<cwebber2> works for me, the next week though
<cwebber2> is even better
The downsides of not working for a large company is not being able to simply fly to MIT haha
<cwebber2> week of march 15 is even better because it’s the week before libreplanet
<cwebber2> then I don’t have to head to boston twice :)
<wilkie> that would be good for me
Arnaud: Adding second week of March to Doodle poll
tantek: Add week after that?
<harry> How many Europeans would come to a f2f in MIT?
<rhiaro> I would!
Arnaud: evanpro will give us an update on Foursquare
<tantek> who just joined?
evanpro: Not taking good or bad lessons, just trying to understand the APIs
… Foursquare lets users develop relationships with places as well as people
… Uses OAuth2, partially based on Twitter’s mechanism
<jessica_lily> harry: nope, costs too much to fly from UK to boston. I would if it was around the same time as another event (e.g. libreplanet)
evanpro: Concept of user and person, as well as venue and place. Business, restuarants. Outdoors areas, neighbourhoods, airport gates
<cwebber2> jessica_lily and I will probably be in boston for libreplanet, which is the 21-22 of march
<cwebber2> so if it was the previous week
<cwebber2> we could be in for both
evanpro: Users can create tips and lists of places
… Lists managed by individual users
… Mechanisms for special deals at venues
… Link events to venues, play at theatre
<cwebber2> it might be a lot harder us to attend then if the week of the 9th, but week of the 16th is much easier
evanpro: Events have specific time and place
… About 105 endpoints, broad API
<tantek> seems like a common problem - so many endpoints (Twitter, Foursquare)
evanpro: A lot of the same endpoints for different types. Content managed by create/read tips/checkins/lists
… Geographical vocab is created by users
<sandro> tantek, I wonder if they view it as a problem
<tantek> /me welcome back rhiaro
evanpro: Lots of endpoints for managing places
… Each user has a number of feed endpoints for each type of content
<tantek> sandro - as a *developer* - more endpoints = more complexity
<tantek> in both cases, the endpoints were likely accreted over time.
evanpro: Inbox where they can see checkins by friends and people they follow
… Social graph endpoints, partially because it is sensitive it is two way - requires approval between users. Contrast with Twitter’s 1 way social graph
<tantek> still - perhaps there’s an API design anti-pattern here we can learn from
<tantek> and learn to avoid
evanpro: Users can create responses to types of content, comments and likes on most types
… Little bit of resharing but not very common
<tantek> you can also follow humans that have over 1000 “friends”
<sandro> tantek, I agree it seems that way upfront, but it MIGHT be that funneling that complexity through fewer endpoints doesn’t really simplify but just moves it around. (I’m exploring this idea – I don’t really believe it.)
evanpro: Some non-human things, such as following lists or multi venue brand pages like Starbucks or McDonalds
<tantek> or rather, Foursquare turns people into “brands” when they get 1000+ friends
evanpro: Some search endpoints for users and content
… Content reporting endpoints
<tantek> e.g. Scoble
<aaronpk> but Scoble *is* a brand :P
evanpro: Some endpoints for managing, reading and updating user profile
… Brand management endpoints
… Owner of venue can claim and manage venue information. Hours, contact, specials, events etc
<AdamB> there are a lot of diff use cases those end points are suporting
evanpro: Not quite finished looking at that
… Page is up on wiki and I would welcome any edits https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Foursquare_API
<cwebber2> I doubt we’re going to need so many endpoints, since thsi looks like almost all of this probably would work with posting activities
evanpro: Any questions?
<cwebber2> but this is interesting for at least what vocabulary we need
tantek: Did you notice any patterns? So many duplicated endpoints for different content types
evanpro: Really good question, both Twitter and Foursquare API have hundreds of endpoints, some redundant. Suggestions, deprecation etc through APIs
… Version management in API
<elf-pavlik> we could also look at version management of verious APIs
evanpro: Design principle appears to be 85 endpoints makes it easy to just add another
… Instead of restructure entire mechansim
<AdamB> have to keep backwards compatibility if you make changes
<AdamB> so easier to add new ones
sandro: Continuing on, when I see these endpoints I see them as being very simple operations on a data. Each being like 3 lines of code.
… As I try to picture the database, I want to know what the fields are on each of the entities. Maybe not in scope of particular investigation.
… Bits of the data models are bubbling up as endpoints, so to speak
… Are they documented anywhere?
<elf-pavlik> sandro, i want to propose it for IG Vocabulary TF
sandro: Text, venue, date, list of feedback etc
Sorry, missed that bit
<evanpro> ACTION evanpro link to entity description in Foursquare API
<trackbot> Error finding ‘evanpro’. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
<AdamB> none of these systems have simple DBs at all
sandro: Are there any that aren’t actually database operations?
evanpro: Yes, most are CRUD
… Relationship, reading, updating object in system
… Foursquare is not a general purpose API, it is for a very specific geographically oriented social networks. No groups or videos
<evanpro> Arnaud: thanks,s orry
<evanpro> ACTION eprodrom link to entity description in Foursquare API
<trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Link to entity description in foursquare api [on Evan Prodromou - due 2014-12-02].
<sandro> Hmmm, venues/trending is likely more sophisticated than CRUD
bblfish: If you look at these and remove the CRUD things you may be able to reduce by a factor of 6 by a HTTP verb instead of endpoint for each object
… POST on every endpoint, could be using DELETE etc.
<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to note Foursquare API does cover “notes” (e.g. attached to a checkin, but used to allow self-standing as “shouts”), “photos” (also attached to a checkin), thus
bblfish: Better caching
<AnnBassetti> (bblfish = Henry Story)
tantek: In watching the evolution of foursquare, the trend is the evolve to be generic.
… Every photo posting service evolves to videos
… Foursquare might add videos
… Pretty clear they are growing their API
<cwebber2> btw, this brings up an important point
<bblfish> if I can summarise: there are a lot of repeating end points such as search, delete, add, search, etc…. This looks like a duplication of what HTTP verbs do. There is POST for create, DELETE for deleting a resource, PATCH for changing, PUT for replacing, and even WebDav SEARCH
tantek: So we should assume that’s their path
<cwebber2> we haven’t really spoken about how to post media
Arnaud: Start specialised then expand
<cwebber2> such as images/video
<bblfish> so one could reduce the endpoints by 5 or 6 probably just by using verbs
<cwebber2> whether or not that would be a separate submission from the activity post
elf-pavlik: Facebook API works in concept of social graph
… Provides HTTP client for explorer tool
… Requires authentication
… Nodes are entities - user, page etc.
… Some have screen names
… 12 digit id or username
… The nodes have edit
… User has events and different edges
… when you access graph api, you use id and each node has a link to the facebook url
… Reminds me of schema.org using id and url
… id could be endpoint api, and url could be CDN etc
… You can make requests and return a default set of fields, can define which fields you want
… Embed other resources, top 5 posts for example
… enumerations for vocab
<Loqi> it’ll be ok
elf-pavlik: I didn’t do much on collections and paging yet
<sandro> Oh, very interesting: backdated_time_granularity(photo): year, month, day, hour, min, none
elf-pavlik: HTTP verbs, GET POST and DELETE
… GET request to API for metadata
<aaronpk> flickr also supports the idea of date granularity https://www.flickr.com/services/api/misc.dates.html
elf-pavlik: Some mismatch between documentation and metadata
<aaronpk> but fewer options: “Y-m-d H:i:s”, “Y-m”, “Y” and “Circa”
elf-pavlik: Lots of entities, linked to pages
… Page categories have main categories and sub categories. Listed 6 groupings, some more details on IG
… A comment or post can have like, comment, share is UI but not API response.
… There is an actions array. Cannot make a POST to submit like
… Looks like an hypermedia attempt, but not fully implemented
… Graph search can let you say “My friends who live in Paris” but API doesn’t provide that
… Examples on wiki such as two people being friends or liking a page
… Start with id of entity followed by the entity type
… Response to events allows POST event with maybe or decline or attending
… You can get edges in multiple ways such as /feed/links or /me/events etc. (did I get that right?)
<tantek> how does “interested” or “saved” show up in the Events API?
<sandro> so great, thank you very much elf-pavlik
<bblfish> Thanks Elf
Arnaud: Thank you Elf and Evan. Out of time now
<evanpro> +1 thanks Arnaud
<tantek> i.e. FB UI has ability to “save” an event, or indicate that you’re interested. wondering how you do that with the API
Arnaud: Move on to Activity Streams
<tantek> jasnell: I’ll try to get those pull-requests to fix the microformats examples etc. in the extended-vocab page sometime today
jasnell: Follow on from conversations about the common implementations of types and verbs
jasnell: I have created the drafts link on github repo
… Significant expansion of object types
… Need basic level of interoperbility
… At this point, does the group feel it is heading in the right direction?
evanpro: I feel it is moving down a great path. One comment regarding keeping synonyms. Does the structure of vocab need us to do that?
<tantek> hmm - people treat favorite & like differently sometimes - experience in IndieWebCamp and analysis of silos
evanpro: There may have been sense in AS1.0 but do we need to keep them for 2.0
<tantek> and sometimes fave & like are treated the same in by people’s sites
evanpro: Posting a blog entry to my blog, the object is the entry and target is the blog
… Like and favourite are often synonyms but naunced differences
… 500px has likes and hearts
… Not clear whether we can collapse it
<Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss IG Vocabulary TF
<tantek> in particular: http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite#Differences_From_Like
<AdamB> we also support “Adam recommended the answer …..”
elf-pavlik: Coordinating with IG, like to work on mapping with alternatives
<oshepherd> While on the subject, As I’ve discussed with tantek (and will E-Mail the list), I’m in favor of dropping the “post” activity in favor of just putting the object there
<tantek> see silo examples here: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Silo_Examples
<Loqi> cwebber2 has 7 karma
<AdamB> well job on the examples james
jasnell: Microformat examples are currently sketchy. Loose some of the information
<cwebber2> rhiaro: :)
jasnell: Need folks to look at AS and map to Microformats
<AdamB> in addition to like/favorite
tantek: Thank you jasnell, will commit to reviewing the MF examples
<cwebber2> the examples are super nice
<cwebber2> tantek is fading out here
We’ve lost you tantek
<cwebber2> tantek got swallowed by a wave
<elf-pavlik> tantek, can you type it ?
tantek said something about MF not needing the extra info
<tantek> right, in some cases, there is no “loss” per se in converting to microformats, but rather, may be areas where indiewebcamp etc. found “YAGNI” in ActivityStreams - that is, features, properties, aspects that were just unnecessary in practice when posting to the social web.
<tantek> YAGNI: http://indiewebcamp.com/YAGNI
<cwebber2> great meeting!
<evanpro> Thanks Arnaud!
Arnaud: Closing call, thank you everybody for joining
<cwebber2> and yes thanks ShaneHud_ :)
<tantek> ShaneHudson++ for minuting!
<Loqi> ShaneHudson has 14 karma
<cwebber2> ShaneHud_: ++
<elf-pavlik> thanks Arnaud++ ShaneHud_++
<cwebber2> oh ShaneHud_++
<tiborKatelbach> thanks bye
<tantek> thanks Arnaud!
Thanks. Can anyone point me towards how to sort out the minutes?
<tantek> Shane, pretty sure that’s documented on our wiki page
<tantek> if not, let’s start an FAQ :)
<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Scribes ShaneHud_
<tantek> thanks elf-pavlik !
<Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: hhalpin to set up JSON-LD context for namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-social-minutes.html#action01]