- 1 Social Web Working Group Teleconference
- 1.1 18 Nov 2014
- 1.2 Attendees
- 1.3 Contents
- 1.3.1 Approval of Minutes of 11 November 2014 Teleconf
- 1.3.2 discussing open issues
- 1.3.3 Coordination with IG
- 1.3.4 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/8
- 1.3.5 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/9 Need candidates for federation protocol
- 1.3.6 Social API
- 1.3.7 go over twitter api in particular
- 1.3.8 last minute questions
- 1.3.9 new business?
- 1.4 Summary of Action Items
Social Web Working Group Teleconference
18 Nov 2014
See also: IRC log
- jasnell, elf-pavlik, AdamB, cwebber2, oshepherd, Ann, aaronpk, Tantek, wilkie, Wendy, rhiaro, Sandro, evanp, hhalpin, dret, Jessica_Lily
- Summary of Action Items
<jasnell> hey elf.. I'm on, but I'm muted
<elf-pavlik> ok :)
that last one's me
<oshepherd> Zakim: ??P9 is me
<tantek> trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Date: 18 November 2014
I could scribe
<elf-pavlik> scribenick: cwebber2
<tantek> scribe: cwebber2
I kinda like scribing
oops, shouldn't have said that ;)
<evanp> Thanks wseltzer
tantek: so we have a scribe, first thing to do is to approve the minutes of last call
Approval of Minutes of 11 November 2014 Teleconf
<Loqi> cwebber2 has 5 karma
<evanp> Thanks Chris
<hhalpin> PROPOSAL: approved minutes of last telecon: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-11-minutes
tantek: hearing no objections on irc, I'm declaring the minutes approved, move on
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: approved minutes of last telecon: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-11-minutes
if anyone finds problems/typos, edit after the fact, it's a wiki
next week's teleconference is on as far as we know, we know it's thanksgiving in the US
so if you have regrets(?) if you can't show up to the wiki, that would be appreciated
add to the regrets section
<tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-25 - please add yourself to regrets if you can't make it
next go through tracking of actions & issues
we have 8 open issues
<hhalpin> At TPAC, we were moving to nouns
issue 3: open issue, don't see anything new on this, can we drop or continue asynchronously?
<jasnell> continuing work on this piece
<wilkie> cwebber2: make a new TOPIC section, you'll thank yourself later
cwebber2: wilkie: ok :)
<evanp> I don't think any of these issues have additional developments this week
discussing open issues
issue 4, do we rely on property name or duck typing
cwebber2: who's speaking?
sandro: going through the tracker seems unusual
tantek: if nobody has objections, unless we have issues that require synchronous discussion, we'll just continue and address it asynchornously
<elf-pavlik> open actions: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open
Coordination with IG
<trackbot> action-4 -- Arnaud Le Hors to Add "what is the role of social wg, ig and cg?" as an faq to https://www.w3.org/wiki/socialwg#faq -- due 2014-09-23 -- OPEN
harry: I emailed brad fitzpatrick
don't know him well
tantek: this is just pubsubhubbub, right?
<Jessica_Lily> Zakim: +??P20 is me
<elf-pavlik> i can ask on http://www.w3.org/community/pubsub/ list
could you add to the actions clarifying pubsubhubbub?
<Jessica_Lily> hm did I do that right?
evanpro: I think clint (?) was managing PuSH stuff at Google
<evanp> dewitt dewitt clintonon
<Jessica_Lily> ah thanks!
evanp: dewitt clinton
<Jessica_Lily> Zakim: ??P20 is me
tantek: can you coordinate and update action?
<Jessica_Lily> leave the ?'s off too? :P
<wilkie> Jessica_Lily: comma, not colon
<Jessica_Lily> super! thanks wilkie
<trackbot> action-6 -- Harry Halpin to Cycle with wendy and google on push licensing -- due 2014-11-04 -- OPEN
<wilkie> np! :)
<tantek> evan and harry to coordinate on http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/5
cwebber2: I'm not sure what the topic is on this one
<tantek> see http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/6
<hhalpin> notes Action 5 and Action 6 are basically the same
tantek: let's just coordinate this week, if action 5 and 6 are the same, collapse it
<wseltzer> trackbot, close action-6
<trackbot> Closed action-6.
harry: I think they're the same
<hhalpin> So I'm closing Issue 5 since the answer is "no"
tantek: will leave that to you harry, so evan can handle dewitt
<hhalpin> and I'll keep Issue 6 open.
<jasnell> yes. one sec
<hhalpin> And cc wendy on email to BradFitz and Evan, who can then forward that to Clinton DeWitt
tantek: our official liason Kevin Marks (?) is on the call
<Jessica_Lily> hm is mine not muted?
<Jessica_Lily> oh thanks
<Jessica_Lily> I muted myself in ekiga
james: there's been no further progress, the annotation working group is working on getting the next model out
looking at vocabulary looking at defining vocabulary or equivalencies
the ball is in their court
they are aware
<Jessica_Lily> elf-pavlik: okay cool thanks
tantek: my question is are there any other groups working on annotations overlap
if any future groups are working on it, please coordinate
eg with HTML
that's my suspicion, thinking architecturally
high level working groups at W3C are working on concept of "share"
<elf-pavlik> also https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Sharing/API
http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/9 Need candidates for federation protocol
james: it's in progress, evan's posted thoughts on this
I've posted thoughts yesterday to evolve this schema
see how they fit best
it's def a work in progress, not quite there yet
tantek: does this relate to the work you and I did on adapting (??) to activitystreams 2.0 docs?
james: yes, I'm working on modeling the mapping in the json-ld and the AS examples
will see by the end of the week
tantek: can you get it into the existing draft?
james: Yes, hoping to get an appendix discussing HTML rendering
don't want to confuse it with too many serializations
as for inline examples, you can click to view with json-ld
becoming fairly common in a number of diff drafts
<rhiaro> +1 tabs for inline examples
tantek: great, would love to see the demo incorporated into the editor's draft as you see fit, at least have a HTML rendering
as we get more and more adoption
our job is to document interop
that concludes the actions
tantek: there's multiple iterations, the social API candidates and patterns
evanp: yeah, I'm on the queue from before re: AS, but the main thing is I edited this
<tantek> five step procedure: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API
elf put himself on the queue, so I want to jump in here to say there's a 5-step procedure to identify patterns to use/inform our social API understanding
second to do analysis of existing APIs
third to generate requirements of things we can do
or at least must haves/like to have/don't need
and then start looking at / evaluating candidates
took some time this week to start breaking down existing patterns / APIs we have on our patterns list
if we have 3-5 minutes, would love to go over twitter api and break things down
which could help us break down other APIs
tantek: let's put that at the end of the agenda, is that ok?
evanp: sounds great
my main point is that we're nowhere near evaluating candidates
we still have much to do before we get there
<Shane> That list is missing webmention, is that intentional?
tantek: that's at step 2 and 3?
tantek: okay, that's good to know where we are
<Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss Gathering feedback on various Socialwg/Social API candidates
elf-pavlik: I just created sections for each candidate on the wiki
<evanp> Shane: I think Webmention is a server-to-server protocol rather than a client-to-server API
we want to look at other APIs, but many of us look at it anyhow that we should take notes
for example, with micropub, it has (???) nest resources
so once I noticed that I started collecting feedback
we don't have to rush, but I'm trying to create space and encouraging people to take notes
<Shane> evanp: Ah yes, I see. Been following along on IRC (due to circumstances re audio) so didn't quite realise we're talking just client-to-server now :)
tantek: that's right, I think we're not at the point we can eval candidates w/ respect to each other, but I think i'll echo elf-pavlik that we should all look and add nodes if we find issues and what implications of the social api are
<evanp> It's not 100% clear that maintaining a distinction between those two is necessary
that way we can async gather feedback on candidates
does anyone object?
evanp: no objection, I think we should understand where we are in the process
tantek: agreed, grat
nobody else is on the speaker queue, anyone else have anything to add re: social API?
go over twitter api in particular
cwebber2: elf-pavlik: yeah trying to, sorry
it's new to me
evanp: here's link to the twitter api, how it does, how it works, identifying functional parts of that API, what you can do, how they work
the twitter API is a relatively big API
has single method with oauth api A?
which is specifically for twitter model: monolithic model for following, posting a "tweet" short message, which hits timeline of all followers.
standard pattern for social entworks
in twitter API, uses custom json encoding
a few important entities: user represents account holder. Tweets have content of message, but also creation date, author info, geolocation data, etc
<Shane> Should we take the old Twitter API into consideration as well? The new (OAuth) one has caused limitations for some developers, which we of course need to avoid
separate data type for direct (1:1) messages between users
I broke down the entities
<tantek> this is great analysis evanp: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Twitter_API
in particular, a collection entity for catching multiple messages
<tantek> Shane, can you q+ to ask your question?
bunched up endpoints into a few functional groups
<AdamB> very nice work evanp
most important for twitter is CRUD (create read update delete)
you can get in various formats: either in native format or OEmbed
<Shane> tantek: I can but have no audio so will have to just ask on irc
every user has an "outbox", a stream of tweets they created which is readable
as well as a stream of tweets by people they follow, their "inbox"
there's also a stream of tweets sent directly to that user
<oshepherd> Shane: I'm not sure how OAuth has caused limitations for anyone
<aaronpk> the crypto part of OAuth 1 was a hurdle for many developers, both on the provider side and consumer side
if you haven't looked at this API, it's confusing, there's a direct message, but ther's also "mentions", which are when people brought you into the conversation but it's a public conversation
there's stuff for handling inbox/outbox as well as CRUD for messages
it's a one-way follow mechanism
<aaronpk> this is well documented, and was much of the motivation for designing OAuth 2 to not include the crypto requirement
you can create and update that ofllow mechanism
typically does not require approval, though possible for it to do so
cluster of API endpoints for managing your accounts
eg, change profile info, name, location, etc
twitter users have homepage and can manage their homepage design
there's a cluster of API endpoints for blocking users, muting, etc
blocking prevents another person from contacting you at all
mute just makes them not show up
similar, but different in implementation
there's a cluster of content search apis
there's a user search api cluster
<tantek> who just joined?
as well as a cluster of apis for suggestions of who to follow
ther'es a cluster for favorites
there's a contact list cluster, which is a complex mechanism in the api
can create lists of users, can share with others
can follow your lists
eg you can make "heads of state in the EU"
it's a way to curate streams
because twitter uses its own geographical vocab, there's a cluster of API endpoints for managing those places
as well as cluster of API endpoints for trends
a measure of popularity
cluster of enpoints for managing users??
mechanism to report spam
so, this is a remarkably broad api
but the objects for person/tweets, has a lot of properties
there's a lot that's not here, especially because there's no way to track activities
they don't have something like the activitystream model
tantek: thanks, that's a great overview evanp
I went ahead and added some stuff to the features side to the bottom of the page with the features list
in case you want to compare what the API allows
as you can tell, there are gaps in their API
<Shane> Yes, thank you evanp (and cwebber2), very useful
you see some kind of activitystream in their UI, but
those arn't all visible in the api as far as I can tell
let me go to the queue
<tantek> go ahead Shane
I think I remember Shane saying he's only on IRC
<Shane> My question was "Should we take the old Twitter API into consideration as well? The new (OAuth) one has caused limitations for some developers, which we of course need to avoid"
<Shane> But I think the issues were OAuth and rate limiting, rather than actual API issues
tantek: I think that's a reasonable question
instead of just what the api could do, maybe what the api has dropped
evanp: I can respond to that
I think that the big differences between previous versions and current versions surrounded representations
previously XML, ATOM, etc
those have been slimmed down
yes, there was HTTP Basic, methods for mechanisms to go around the OAuth system
but OAuth is mandatory as of a few years ago
maybe what we can do is note that on the analysis
tantek: that would be great
it's useful also to see experiences of other parties
<Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss Some accounts can be posted to by multiple authenticated users.
elf-pavlik: I wanted to ask about accounts posted by multiple users(?)
I know many people were criticizing ostatus/diaspora/etc for having no group functionality
how do groups work?
evanp: I can respond to this
this is not a group mechanism like an interest group
it's a way to do brand management on twitter
<elf-pavlik> ok, thanks!
if you are GM or Orange brand managers, they can all post as if they're BP, Orange, GM
so mainly a brand management system
<oshepherd> (This is one area where my suggested Agent/Person deliniation comes in)
tantek: I believe that feature exists but is not public?
evanp: yes, I believe it exists but is not public
tantek: okay, so this is something you can take on to document
evanp: will do
harry: I wonder about relationship to twitter cards
this is a fancy way of saying rich media in our twitter feed
cwebber2: (for notes: hhalpin is hhalpin, my bad)
<tantek> see analysis on cards here as well: http://indiewebcamp.com/card
<hhalpin> anything genuinely new here?
hhalpin: I wonder if anyone is aiming to rebrand rich media stuff as cards
<Shane> I really like the way cards work
<AnnBassetti> that was an interesting article .. glad you brought it up
tantek: I think that's related to what they consume as links
as opposed to what you consume as endpoints
what do you think evanp? should we document scope of what twitter calls out to, as well as what you can call twitter with?
<AnnBassetti> is that card concept only in Twitter?
evanp: yes, I think that's interesting, I'm not familliar with twitter cards
<Shane> From that article "Whoever defines the standard, the W3C is where it should live, just like HTML, logically belongs."
I seem to remember there's some oembed usage here
<tantek> see some analysis on Twitter Cards here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter_Cards
for people who aren't familiar, with certain links posted to a tweet, if it's to a well known domain like youtube.com, twitter will display some rich content inline
<elf-pavlik> i think they use OEmbed
so you don't have to click through to youtube, it will show an embedded video
I think they use oembed, but I'm not sure
so worth taking a look at
tantek: proposed action is to make a subsection on twitter api analysis
here's what twitter 3ecalls out to
here's a link to indiewebcamp of what twitter cards do
oembed is one mechanism to the more general UI of link preview
we can document this
card sharing seems one example to us
hhalpin: just trying to figure out if it's a rebranding of rich media
<hhalpin> anyone know Nova Spivack?
tantek: feel free to invite people working on cards, I think that's in scope
<hhalpin> he should be pinged over this WG
<AnnBassetti> good idea
evanp: I think the reason I put myself on the queue that this analysis is obv on the wiki, anyone can manage or edit it
I just ask that since the intent of the document is to understand clusters of functionality
we maintain those clusters
don't edit out the clusters
the other thing is we have 6 proprietary apis and 7 open apis
so that's 10-12 apis that could stand this level of analysis
I'd like members to stepward and do this
it took a few hours to do for twitter
could people please help do analysis on others?
tantek: yes, esp if you like one of those patterns
please help document it
that will help us with comparison/analysis stages
<jasnell> It's also likely worth looking at the use cases documented here: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Expanded_Vocabulary
<Shane> Flickr should probably go on the list, should I add it?
<evanp> Shane: sure
AnnBassetti: hi, back on the twitter api bit that had to do with brand management
I didn't quite understand it other than brand management, but tantek, if we set up a twitter account for the w3c advisory board
<sandro> evanp, is your list of 10-12 APIs written down somewhere?
those of us who were on it could post to that
is that similar?
tantek: similar, I just shared the password with all management members
that's a low-tech version
what twitter's groups/brand feature is doing differently, it enables a brand/group of accounts, say ACME corp
to somehow be upgraded to be a group
so other people can tweet on behalf of it
<hhalpin> BTW, who runs the Social Web WG?
<hhalpin> Maybe we should run it this way :)
so what happens in the UI is you'll see a tweet from the brand
and it'll say "tweeted by:" @username
<hhalpin> Right now the owner of the Social Web WG Twitter account is a mystery
so users can pick from a special menu
so they can tweet as a brand
<hhalpin> Anyone know who that is?
no need to log in as a separate user
you can switch back
cwebber2: btw, I think that's a cool feature, though I wonder how much the API we're designing needs that, seems like an application by application thing
other than documenting "sent by"
<Loqi> evanp has 1 karma
sandro: thanks for organizing this, very helpful
I'm very curious what other peoples' experience replicating CRUD a bunch of times rather than having CRUD on a bunch of different types
cwebber2: sandro: I agree
<oshepherd> cwebber2: With the concept of "Actors" in the AS2 spec, then it would be a pretty trivial thing
<oshepherd> sandro: Twitter's API wasn't designed, it evolved
sandro: seems you should be able to have a few apis and then use that to do different types
why is that? is it historical reasons, or do programmers like to do it
evanp: tantek may be able to speak better than I can, and if we could get Blaine Cook (?) to speak on it but the origin of the API is nearly accidental
was originally implemented in Ruby on Rails, and if you don't turn it off
these representations are available for different APIs by default
so the original API was kind of leaked because 3rd party APIs started to discover and use
obv that implementation is still in place, twitter api has been through several clean-room rewrites, but that's the origin of that style
<evanp> cwebber2: Blaine Cook
tantek: that's pretty accurate
cwebber2: evanp: aaronpk: got it
tantek: simplest thing that could work rather than formally design it
but it's mostly historical
not really designed at all
eg, using ruby dates format instead of ISO format
I don't recommend copying any aspects of this API per se
because I think it's accidental ~architecture (but really architected)
but I think the analysis evanp has done is right
if we figure out "here's what the API is trying to do"
if we can find what took Twitter 101+ endpoints in a few, that would be great
twitter got started as a startup, ship early, 3rd party applications big part of that history
elf-pavlik: I just want to emphasize that we see three entities, and like 100 endpoints
twitter has many more entities, what do their endpoints look like?
consider machine readable APIs, etc
tantek: elf-pavlik, could you look at facebook APIs?
elf-pavlik: will try
<Loqi> elf-pavlik has 1 karma
<Loqi> elf-pavlik has 2 karma
tantek: ok, have 5 minutes left
any questions about social API or stuff?
last minute questions
cwebber2: who is this?
<elf-pavlik> +1 work out in the open!
hhalpin: I think we should work out in the open
tantek: yes, if you start analyzing an api
start with social api pages
start editing incrementaly
that way anyone who looks at it can see
you can collaborate rather than work for a week and find out
any incremental work is appreciated
keep wiki up to date, we can all collaborate together
email/irc also helpful
any other new business?
tantek: hearing no other new business, I'll adjourn it
you all get 3 free minutes
<evanp> I will spend my 3 minutes well
<elf-pavlik> thanks all!
see you next week
<evanp> Thanks tantek
<dret> thanks everybody!
<Loqi> cwebber2 has 6 karma
<tantek> thank you cwebber2 for scribing!
<rhiaro> Oh I forgot, any word on scheduling the next f2f?
now I gotta remember the conversion process. It's in my notes.
rhiaro: ah right
should we discuss that on the ML?
<rhiaro> There was a doodle
<tantek> rhiaro - oops good point. add it to next week's agenda? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-25
<rhiaro> I think most people filled it in
<rhiaro> Okay tantek
<tantek> thank you rhiaro
rssagent, make minutes
<elf-pavlik> link to next f2f pool: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Face_to_face_Meetings
<tantek> reminder: please fill out the doodle to for the next f2f: http://doodle.com/3cfvrfqr6n9cgdzs
<tantek> trackbot, end meeting
Summary of Action Items
- elf-pavlik should expand on Facebook APIs
- Make a subsection on Twitter API analysis regarding cards / OEmbed
- Harry is supposed to ask about PubSubHubbub