17:48:10 RRSAgent has joined #social 17:48:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-social-irc 17:50:14 tommorris has left #social 17:50:18 tommorris has joined #social 17:50:19 tommorris has left #social 17:55:53 jasnell has joined #social 17:56:29 T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started 17:56:36 +jasnell 17:56:58 +??P6 17:57:22 hey elf.. I'm on, but I'm muted 17:57:30 ok :) 17:57:37 caseorganic has joined #social 17:57:53 + +1.314.777.aaaa 17:58:06 zakim, aaaa is AdamB 17:58:06 +AdamB; got it 17:58:17 +??P8 17:58:22 that last one's me 17:58:56 +??P9 17:59:06 Zakim: ??P9 is me 17:59:11 Zakim, ??P9 is me 17:59:11 +oshepherd; got it 17:59:28 +Ann 17:59:34 Zakim, who's on the phone? 17:59:34 On the phone I see jasnell, elf-pavlik, AdamB, cwebber2, oshepherd, Ann 18:00:14 +[Mozilla] 18:00:16 Arnaud has joined #social 18:00:19 Zakim, what's the code? 18:00:19 the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), hhalpin 18:00:23 +[IPcaller] 18:00:24 +aaronpk 18:00:25 Zakim, Tantek is in Mozilla 18:00:25 +Tantek; got it 18:00:30 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:00:30 +wilkie; got it 18:00:43 +Wendy 18:00:47 trackbot, start meeting 18:00:49 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:00:51 Zakim, this will be SOCL 18:00:51 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now 18:00:52 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 18:00:52 Date: 18 November 2014 18:01:13 I could scribe 18:01:21 dret has joined #social 18:01:24 np 18:01:32 scribenick: cwebber2 18:01:40 scribe: cwebber2 18:01:41 I kinda like scribing 18:01:44 +Sandro 18:01:46 + +1.514.554.aabb 18:01:47 oops, shouldn't have said that ;) 18:01:51 :D 18:02:03 +[IPcaller] 18:02:10 zakim, aabb is evanp 18:02:10 +evanp; got it 18:02:14 Zakim, IPcaller is hhalpin 18:02:14 +hhalpin; got it 18:02:20 Thanks wseltzer 18:02:44 tantek: so we have a scribe, first thing to do is to approve the minutes of last call 18:02:46 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-11-minutes 18:02:59 +[IPcaller] 18:03:01 any objections? 18:03:04 any corrections? 18:03:12 zakim, ipcaller is me 18:03:12 +dret; got it 18:03:16 TOPIC: Approval of Minutes of 11 November 2014 Teleconf 18:03:27 cwebber2++ 18:03:30 cwebber2 has 5 karma 18:03:33 Thanks Chris 18:03:34 PROPOSAL: approved minutes of last telecon: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-11-minutes 18:03:36 tantek: hearing no objections on irc, I'm declaring the minutes approved, move on 18:03:38 +1 18:03:43 +1 18:03:43 RESOLVED: approved minutes of last telecon: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-11-minutes 18:03:52 if anyone finds problems/typos, edit after the fact, it's a wiki 18:04:09 next week's teleconference is on as far as we know, we know it's thanksgiving in the US 18:04:28 so if you have regrets(?) if you can't show up to the wiki, that would be appreciated 18:04:37 add to the regrets section 18:04:38 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-25 - please add yourself to regrets if you can't make it 18:04:52 Shane has joined #social 18:05:03 next go through tracking of actions & issues 18:05:11 we have 8 open issues 18:05:30 At TPAC, we were moving to nouns 18:05:38 issue 3: open issue, don't see anything new on this, can we drop or continue asynchronously? 18:05:41 continuing work on this piece 18:05:41 async 18:05:43 cwebber2: make a new TOPIC section, you'll thank yourself later 18:05:44 async 18:05:55 cwebber2: wilkie: ok :) 18:05:58 I don't think any of these issues have additional developments this week 18:06:03 TOPIC: discussing open issues 18:06:13 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/open 18:06:16 issue 4, do we rely on property name or duck typing 18:06:41 cwebber2: who's speaking? 18:06:57 sandro: going through the tracker seems unusual 18:07:18 tantek: if nobody has objections, unless we have issues that require synchronous discussion, we'll just continue and address it asynchornously 18:07:24 open actions: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open 18:07:36 TOPIC: Coordination with IG 18:07:44 oh 18:07:45 sorry 18:07:54 action-4? 18:07:54 action-4 -- Arnaud Le Hors to Add "what is the role of social wg, ig and cg?" as an faq to https://www.w3.org/wiki/socialwg#faq -- due 2014-09-23 -- OPEN 18:07:54 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/4 18:08:17 +??P20 18:08:23 harry: I emailed brad fitzpatrick 18:08:26 don't know him well 18:08:35 q+ 18:08:38 tantek: this is just pubsubhubbub, right? 18:08:46 Zakim: +??P20 is me 18:08:47 i can ask on http://www.w3.org/community/pubsub/ list 18:08:48 ack evanp 18:08:52 could you add to the actions clarifying pubsubhubbub? 18:08:55 harry: yes 18:09:04 hm did I do that right? 18:09:10 evanpro: I think clint (?) was managing PuSH stuff at Google 18:09:16 dewitt clinton 18:09:19 s/clint/dewitt clinton 18:09:21 ah thanks! 18:09:25 evanp: dewitt clinton 18:09:27 Zakim: ??P20 is me 18:09:38 tantek: can you coordinate and update action? 18:09:40 evanp: yes 18:09:42 leave the ?'s off too? :P 18:09:46 Jessica_Lily: comma, not colon 18:09:59 Zakim, ??P20 is me 18:09:59 +Jessica_Lily; got it 18:10:06 super! thanks wilkie 18:10:08 action-6? 18:10:08 action-6 -- Harry Halpin to Cycle with wendy and google on push licensing -- due 2014-11-04 -- OPEN 18:10:08 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/6 18:10:09 np! :) 18:10:11 evan and harry to coordinate on http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/5 18:10:12 cwebber2: I'm not sure what the topic is on this one 18:10:13 oh 18:10:14 see http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/6 18:10:15 I see. 18:10:24 notes Action 5 and Action 6 are basically the same 18:10:43 tantek: let's just coordinate this week, if action 5 and 6 are the same, collapse it 18:11:01 trackbot, close action-6 18:11:02 Closed action-6. 18:11:04 harry: I think they're the same 18:11:17 So I'm closing Issue 5 since the answer is "no" 18:11:17 tantek: will leave that to you harry, so evan can handle dewitt 18:11:23 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/8 18:11:27 and I'll keep Issue 6 open. 18:11:30 TOPIC: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/8 18:11:31 yes. one sec 18:11:39 And cc wendy on email to BradFitz and Evan, who can then forward that to Clinton DeWitt 18:11:49 Zakim, who's making noise? 18:11:53 tantek: our official liason kevin (?) is on the call 18:12:00 evanp, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Mozilla] (19%), jasnell (80%), Jessica_Lily (59%) 18:12:02 s/kevin/Kevin Marks 18:12:03 hm is mine not muted? 18:12:08 oh thanks 18:12:13 I muted myself in ekiga 18:12:14 james: there's been no further progress, the annotation working group is working on getting the next model out 18:12:31 looking at vocabulary looking at defining vocabulary or equivalencies 18:12:34 the ball is in their court 18:12:35 q+ 18:12:36 they are aware 18:12:52 elf-pavlik: okay cool thanks 18:13:05 tantek: my question is are there any other groups working on annotations overlap 18:13:23 if any future groups are working on it, please coordinate 18:13:26 eg with HTML 18:13:35 that's my suspicion, thinking architecturally 18:13:49 high level working groups at W3C are working on concept of "share" 18:13:56 james: yep 18:14:00 q- 18:14:06 also https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Sharing/API 18:14:07 TOPIC: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/9 Need candidates for federation protocol 18:14:13 www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/9 18:14:21 james: it's in progress, evan's posted thoughts on this 18:14:28 I've posted thoughts yesterday to evolve this schema 18:14:31 see how they fit best 18:14:38 it's def a work in progress, not quite there yet 18:14:43 q+ 18:14:53 tantek: does this relate to the work you and I did on adapting (??) to activitystreams 2.0 docs? 18:14:58 microformats 18:15:04 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Microformats_Mapping 18:15:12 -elf-pavlik 18:15:18 james: yes, I'm working on modeling the mapping in the json-ld and the AS examples 18:15:23 will see by the end of the week 18:15:28 tantek: can you get it into the existing draft? 18:15:38 james: Yes, hoping to get an appendix discussing HTML rendering 18:15:45 don't want to confuse it with too many serializations 18:15:51 +??P6 18:15:57 as for inline examples, you can click to view with json-ld 18:16:05 becoming fairly common in a number of diff drafts 18:16:06 +1 tabs for inline examples 18:16:23 tantek: great, would love to see the demo incorporated into the editor's draft as you see fit, at least have a HTML rendering 18:16:28 as we get more and more adoption 18:16:36 our job is to document interop 18:16:41 that concludes the actions 18:16:55 TOPIC: Social API 18:17:05 tantek: there's multiple iterations, the social API candidates and patterns 18:17:22 q? 18:17:28 ack evanp 18:17:31 q+ re: Gathering feedback on various Socialwg/Social API candidates 18:17:46 evanp: yeah, I'm on the queue from before re: AS, but the main thing is I edited this 18:18:05 five step procedure: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API 18:18:08 elf put himself on the queue, so I want to jump in here to say there's a 5-step procedure to identify patterns to use/inform our social API understanding 18:18:13 second to do analysis of existing APIs 18:18:21 third to generate requirements of things we can do 18:18:32 or at least must haves/like to have/don't need 18:18:38 and then start looking at / evaluating candidates 18:18:52 took some time this week to start breaking down existing patterns / APIs we have on our patterns list 18:18:57 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/API_requirements 18:19:07 if we have 3-5 minutes, would love to go over twitter api and break things down 18:19:12 which could help us break down other APIs 18:19:23 tantek: let's put that at the end of the agenda, is that ok? 18:19:26 evanp: sounds great 18:19:50 my main point is that we're nowhere near evaluating candidates 18:19:56 we still have much to do before we get there 18:20:00 That list is missing webmention, is that intentional? 18:20:02 tantek: that's at step 2 and 3? 18:20:07 evanp: yes 18:20:13 tantek: okay, that's good to know where we are 18:20:15 q? 18:20:20 ack elf-pavlik 18:20:20 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss Gathering feedback on various Socialwg/Social API candidates 18:20:22 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API_candidates 18:20:39 elf-pavlik: I just created sections for each candidate on the wiki 18:20:40 Shane: I think Webmention is a server-to-server protocol rather than a client-to-server API 18:20:52 we want to look at other APIs, but many of us look at it anyhow that we should take notes 18:21:06 for example, with micropub, it has (???) nest resources 18:21:16 so once I noticed that I started collecting feedback 18:21:28 -wilkie 18:21:32 we don't have to rush, but I'm trying to create space and encouraging people to take notes 18:21:34 evanp: Ah yes, I see. Been following along on IRC (due to circumstances re audio) so didn't quite realise we're talking just client-to-server now :) 18:21:43 NP 18:22:05 tantek: that's right, I think we're not at the point we can eval candidates w/ respect to each other, but I think i'll echo elf-pavlik that we should all look and add nodes if we find issues and what implications of the social api are 18:22:07 It's not 100% clear that maintaining a distinction between those two is necessary 18:22:14 that way we can async gather feedback on candidates 18:22:19 does anyone object? 18:22:41 roger! 18:22:43 evanp: no objection, I think we should understand where we are in the process 18:22:45 q? 18:22:47 tantek: agreed, grat 18:22:48 great 18:23:04 nobody else is on the speaker queue, anyone else have anything to add re: social API? 18:23:34 TOPIC: go over twitter api in particular 18:23:48 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Twitter_API 18:23:53 cwebber2: elf-pavlik: yeah trying to, sorry 18:23:55 it's new to me 18:24:14 evanp: here's link to the twitter api, how it does, how it works, identifying functional parts of that API, what you can do, how they work 18:24:21 the twitter API is a relatively big API 18:24:28 +[IPcaller] 18:24:30 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:24:30 +wilkie; got it 18:24:36 has single method with oauth api A? 18:25:03 which is specifically for twitter model: monolithic model for following, posting a "tweet" short message, which hits timeline of all followers. 18:25:08 standard pattern for social entworks 18:25:12 reedstrm has joined #social 18:25:15 in twitter API, uses custom json encoding 18:25:38 a few important entities: user represents account holder. Tweets have content of message, but also creation date, author info, geolocation data, etc 18:25:48 Should we take the old Twitter API into consideration as well? The new (OAuth) one has caused limitations for some developers, which we of course need to avoid 18:25:48 separate data type for direct (1:1) messages between users 18:25:57 I broke down the entities 18:26:10 this is great analysis evanp: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Twitter_API 18:26:15 in particular, a collection entity for catching multiple messages 18:26:24 Shane, can you q+ to ask your question? 18:26:27 bunched up endpoints into a few functional groups 18:26:34 very nice work evanp 18:26:40 most important for twitter is CRUD (create read update delete) 18:26:50 you can get in various formats: either in native format or OEmbed 18:26:52 tantek: I can but have no audio so will have to just ask on irc 18:26:54 q+ 18:27:01 every user has an "outbox", a stream of tweets they created which is readable 18:27:07 Zakim, SOCL 18:27:07 I don't understand 'SOCL', reedstrm 18:27:10 as well as a stream of tweets by people they follow, their "inbox" 18:27:17 there's also a stream of tweets sent directly to that user 18:27:20 Shane: I'm not sure how OAuth has caused limitations for anyone 18:27:47 the crypto part of OAuth 1 was a hurdle for many developers, both on the provider side and consumer side 18:27:47 if you haven't looked at this API, it's confusing, there's a direct message, but ther's also "mentions", which are when people brought you into the conversation but it's a public conversation 18:27:58 there's stuff for handling inbox/outbox as well as CRUD for messages 18:28:02 it's a one-way follow mechanism 18:28:06 this is well documented, and was much of the motivation for designing OAuth 2 to not include the crypto requirement 18:28:08 you can create and update that ofllow mechanism 18:28:18 typically does not require approval, though possible for it to do so 18:28:25 cluster of API endpoints for managing your accounts 18:28:32 eg, change profile info, name, location, etc 18:28:44 twitter users have homepage and can manage their homepage design 18:28:54 there's a cluster of API endpoints for blocking users, muting, etc 18:29:02 blocking prevents another person from contacting you at all 18:29:08 mute just makes them not show up 18:29:15 similar, but different in implementation 18:29:20 -oshepherd 18:29:22 there's a cluster of content search apis 18:29:31 there's a user search api cluster 18:29:39 +??P9 18:29:47 who just joined? 18:29:47 as well as a cluster of apis for suggestions of who to follow 18:29:55 ther'es a cluster for favorites 18:30:09 there's a contact list cluster, which is a complex mechanism in the api 18:30:15 can create lists of users, can share with others 18:30:24 can follow your lists 18:30:29 eg you can make "heads of state in the EU" 18:30:31 q+ re: Some accounts can be posted to by multiple authenticated users. 18:30:33 it's a way to curate streams 18:30:35 within twitter 18:30:55 because twitter uses its own geographical vocab, there's a cluster of API endpoints for managing those places 18:31:07 as well as cluster of API endpoints for trends 18:31:15 a measure of popularity 18:31:36 cluster of enpoints for managing users?? 18:31:44 mechanism to report spam 18:31:58 so, this is a remarkably broad api 18:32:02 richlitt has joined #social 18:32:12 q+ Twitter Cards 18:32:15 but the objects for person/tweets, has a lot of properties 18:32:17 q- Twitter 18:32:20 q- Cards 18:32:24 q+ hhalpin 18:32:29 there's a lot that's not here, especially because there's no way to track activities 18:32:39 they don't have something like the activitystream model 18:32:45 tantek: thanks, that's a great overview evanp 18:33:03 http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features 18:33:05 I went ahead and added some stuff to the features side to the bottom of the page with the features list 18:33:06 Fantastic 18:33:06 +??P22 18:33:12 in case you want to compare what the API allows 18:33:19 as you can tell, there are gaps in their API 18:33:25 Yes, thank you evanp (and cwebber2), very useful 18:33:28 you see some kind of activitystream in their UI, but 18:33:34 q? 18:33:35 those arn't all visible in the api as far as I can tell 18:33:42 ack Shane 18:33:44 let me go to the queue 18:33:55 go ahead Shane 18:33:55 I think I remember Shane saying he's only on IRC 18:34:03 My question was "Should we take the old Twitter API into consideration as well? The new (OAuth) one has caused limitations for some developers, which we of course need to avoid" 18:34:17 But I think the issues were OAuth and rate limiting, rather than actual API issues 18:34:21 tantek: I think that's a reasonable question 18:34:38 instead of just what the api could do, maybe what the api has dropped 18:34:44 q+ 18:34:49 evanp: I can respond to that 18:35:03 I think that the big differences between previous versions and current versions surrounded representations 18:35:13 previously XML, ATOM, etc 18:35:18 those have been slimmed down 18:35:34 yes, there was HTTP Basic, methods for mechanisms to go around the OAuth system 18:35:40 but OAuth is mandatory as of a few years ago 18:35:50 maybe what we can do is note that on the analysis 18:35:57 tantek: that would be great 18:36:01 q? 18:36:03 it's useful also to see experiences of other parties 18:36:08 ack elf-pavlik 18:36:08 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss Some accounts can be posted to by multiple authenticated users. 18:36:22 elf-pavlik: I wanted to ask about accounts posted by multiple users(?) 18:36:36 I know many people were criticizing ostatus/diaspora/etc for having no group functionality 18:36:41 how do groups work? 18:36:46 evanp: I can respond to this 18:36:54 this is not a group mechanism like an interest group 18:37:01 it's a way to do brand management on twitter 18:37:25 ok, thanks! 18:37:28 if you are GM or Orange brand managers, they can all post as if they're BP, Orange, GM 18:37:34 so mainly a brand management system 18:37:45 (This is one area where my suggested Agent/Person deliniation comes in) 18:37:47 tantek: I believe that feature exists but is not public? 18:37:54 evanp: yes, I believe it exists but is not public 18:38:13 q+ 18:38:15 tantek: okay, so this is something you can take on to document 18:38:18 evanp: will do 18:38:22 ack hhalpin 18:38:40 harry: I wonder about relationship to twitter cards 18:38:46 https://dev.twitter.com/cards/overview 18:38:51 this is a fancy way of saying rich media in our twitter feed 18:39:07 cwebber2: (for notes: harry is hhalpin, my bad) 18:39:12 http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/08/its-time-for-an-open-standard-for-cards/ 18:39:21 see analysis on cards here as well: http://indiewebcamp.com/card 18:39:25 anything genuinely new here? 18:39:27 hhalpin: I wonder if anyone is aiming to rebrand rich media stuff as cards 18:39:27 s/harry/hhalpin/ 18:39:29 I really like the way cards work 18:39:30 that was an interesting article .. glad you brought it up 18:39:38 tantek: I think that's related to what they consume as links 18:39:45 as opposed to what you consume as endpoints 18:40:10 what do you think evanp? should we document scope of what twitter calls out to, as well as what you can call twitter with? 18:40:14 is that card concept only in Twitter? 18:40:19 evanp: yes, I think that's interesting, I'm not familliar with twitter cards 18:40:22 From that article "Whoever defines the standard, the W3C is where it should live, just like HTML, logically belongs." 18:40:28 I seem to remember there's some oembed usage here 18:40:28 see some analysis on Twitter Cards here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter_Cards 18:40:53 for people who aren't familiar, with certain links posted to a tweet, if it's to a well known domain like youtube.com, twitter will display some rich content inline 18:41:01 i think they use OEmbed 18:41:02 bblfish has joined #social 18:41:04 so you don't have to click through to youtube, it will show an embedded video 18:41:12 http://www.oembed.com/ 18:41:12 I think they use oembed, but I'm not sure 18:41:19 so worth taking a look at 18:41:30 tantek: proposed action is to make a subsection on twitter api analysis 18:41:37 here's what twitter 3ecalls out to 18:41:43 (-3e) 18:41:55 here's a link to indiewebcamp of what twitter cards do 18:41:56 http://indiewebcamp.com/link-preview 18:42:09 oembed is one mechanism to the more general UI of link preview 18:42:14 we can document this 18:42:21 q? 18:42:26 card sharing seems one example to us 18:42:45 hhalpin: just trying to figure out if it's a rebranding of rich media 18:42:54 anyone know Nova Spivack? 18:42:59 tantek: feel free to invite people working on cards, I think that's in scope 18:43:03