Unfinished DRAFT based on http://www.w3.org/2014/09/16-social-minutes.html
16 Sep 2014
<a href= 'https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-16'>Agenda</a>
See also: <a href= "http://www.w3.org/2014/09/16-social-irc">IRC log</a>
- elf-pavlik, +972.3.645.aaaa, dromasca, +1.503.342.aabb, Arnaud, +1.559.707.aacc, aaronpk, Sandro, +1.412.370.aadd, +1.303.204.aaee, jasnell, wilkie, dskiba, deiu, jtauber, Shane, barnabywalters, markus, akuckartz_, oshepherd, +26226234aaff, bret, tiborKatelbach
RESOLUTION: approve minutes from last week https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-09-minutes
RESOLUTION: close ACTION 1
RESOLUTION: close ACTION 3
<Arnaud> trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 16 September 2014
<barnabywalters> I just joined
<hhalpin> Apologies, wil have to be in IRC rather than phone.
<hhalpin> having a separate meeting at same time.
<aaronpk_> You've got to be kidding. Who plugged in a modem to the call?
<barnabywalters> wow such noises
<Shane> That may have been me, sorry
<barnabywalters> huh it might have been me somehow
<Shane> I will not be able to use microphone but have managed to get onto the call to listen
can anybody hear me
<Shane> akuckartz_: No
<barnabywalters> P9 is me
then P10 seems to be me...
<barnabywalters> the 41# tip is handy
I seem to be muted but I can try to scribe
yes, but I am muted
Ok, I will try
<Arnaud> scribe: akuckartz_
<deiu> scribenick: akuckartz_
<Shane> I tend to have SIP drop out 30 mins in, but just requires reconnecting
searching for the tpics
Approval of Minutes of 9 September 2014 Teleconf
<hhalpin> <a href= "https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-09-minutes">https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-09-minutes</a>
<elf-pavlik> i made one small edit to minutes today: <a href= "https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Socialwg/2014-09-09-minutes&diff=prev&oldid=76918"> https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Socialwg/2014-09-09-minutes&diff=prev&oldid=76918</a>
Tracking of Actions and Issues
Difficult without beeing able to speak...
action 1 closed.
close action 1
next action will be closed by end of week.
close action 3.
Reminder: Registration required to participate in TPAC
<hhalpin> Note if you reigster quickly you get a discount on price! Register by Oct 1st - 75 USD vs. 150 USD I think..
Members are asked to provide input for agenda.
<Shane> I've added myself as a remote (depending on times, I'm UK based)
<bret> i just joined the call
<tantek> I propose we use at least 50% of the time of the socialwg TPAC f2f for Barcamp-style sessions.
<Arnaud> ack ??P9
We need to finish the list of use-cases at some point. F2F should be used to finish this.
<barnabywalters> I’m actually dropping out in a sec
<barnabywalters> so you can have my ID :(
<tantek> I don't think " finish the list of use-cases" makes sense
<Loqi> it'll be ok
<tantek> I'd rather see the list of use-cases grow over time
<barnabywalters> tiborKatelbach: dial 41# and see what Zakim says
<Shane> I agree with tantek, we don't want to limit it too much but just make sure we are working within the scope of the charter
<wilkie> tiborKatelbach: was that you that 41#?
<tiborKatelbach> please repeat the type of use cases your looking for ?
<elf-pavlik> I'll work in next days on <a href= "https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Check-In_Use_Case">https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Check-In_Use_Case</a>
<tantek> elf-pavlik: before working on the use-case I'd suggest getting your site working!
<elf-pavlik> tantek, of course but friends who host it need to fix their server, i'll sort it out in next days!
Question discussed: Will we create a "final" use case document or one in parallel to the work of the WG?
<tantek> akuckartz_: I don't think any such "final" document makes sense.
<tantek> dated snapshots maybe
<tantek> but we should assuming living use-cases documentation
<rhiaro> +1 to living use case document
Requirements will be based on the use-cases
Members invited to seriously look at the use cases
<rhiaro> People find new crazy things to do with social technology all the time 
<Shane> Why is check-in a different page to the other use-cases?
Who will take ownership of the use case document ? Should be more than one person.
<wilkie> with social systems, I believe you are as close to human creativity as possible, so you have to be flexible and use-cases will be surprising and develop as you go
<tantek> why does there need to be "ownership" of the use case document?
<elf-pavlik> I suggested that for group collaboration use cases we can just make sure that we cover our needs for W3 groups
<rhiaro> +1 wilkie
<elf-pavlik> i didn't create it :) i think james?
<elf-pavlik> akuckartz_, did you capture it?
Members should look at that page. Google invited to join this WG.
especially regarding schema.org
<sandro> elf-pavlik, and everyone else, feel free to scribe your own words
<Shane> I do like the idea of being interoperable across syntaxes if possible
Question discussed: do we need to select one vocabulary or can we be more open ?
<tantek> we should document existing vocabularies *in use* with *actual examples* of URLs of usage
Minimum vocabulary subset should be specified
<markus> do we have a list of what is currently missing in schema.org?
<tantek> why frame it as "missing in schema.org"?
<tantek> why use schema.org as a starting point at all?
<markus> because someone just said some things are missing in schema.org
<tantek> it's shown to be badly overdesigned, e.g. /Volcano has faxmachine
<markus> I'm wondering what those things are
<elf-pavlik> tantek, strong incentive for people to use it - Google, Yahoo, Bing, Yandex supporting it
<tantek> what's missing in schema.org is any sense of minimal design
<wilkie> I agree with having a standard and reasonable subset and then allow graceful extensibility of vocab.
<tantek> elf-pavlik: they claim to use it - actual support is unknown
<wilkie> a minimal base that is
<tantek> schema.org is a horrible starting point
<tantek> elf-pavlik: could you document actual evidence of Google, Yahoo, Bing, Yandex supporting it beyond validation tools?
<tantek> which objects? which properties?
<tantek> not only do I think that's futile, but a waste of time
<markus> why tantek? bad design? too complex? ...?
<sandro> tantek, <a href= "http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html"> http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html</a>
There is no consensus regarding schema.org
<elf-pavlik> <a href= "https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Collection_Comparison">https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Collection_Comparison</a>
<tantek> and frankly, out of order for this working group, since we're working on *openly developed* vocabularies
<tantek> and schema has been developed by an oligopoly at best
<markus> what hasn't? :-)
<tantek> markus - nearly everything else
<tantek> e.g. vCard, hCard, h-card etc.
<tantek> everything in microformats, ActivityStreams etc. was developed fully openly
<tiborKatelbach> as James said it is important to try to pull someone from schema.org into our discussions
<elf-pavlik> Arnaud, -- suggests to fucs on what we need and then based on that look at vocabularies
<tantek> so no, I see no reason to include any use of schema unless there is a member here who feels they need it
We first need to identify and define the information we want to exchange. Then we have a basis for the vocabularies.
<tantek> how about documenting the information we *are* exchanging?
<elf-pavlik> oshepherd, can you add you point to <a href= "https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Collection_Comparison">https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Collection_Comparison</a>
<tantek> as opposed to *want to*
<elf-pavlik> +1 tantek
<tantek> I'd rather make this *real world usage* based
<bret> sandro thats a nice list, but its search centric. any use in a social applicaiton?
<tantek> rather than *arm chair wishlist* based
<rhiaro> I've looked at schema.org wrt connecting humans with creative media they publish in the web (which is in scope for social I reckon) and found it hit and miss, generally not a lot of use
<bret> i guess the email thing is social, but limited to gmail
<wilkie> microformats and activitystreams > schema.org for everything tantek has said about openness in particular
<markus> +1000 to start with use cases and requirements
<elf-pavlik> Arnaud, -- emphasizes importance of gathering USE CASES and agreeing on them
<wilkie> real world usage and use cases should drive the minimal base vocab/actions
<sandro> bret, I have no idea, sorry. I just was handed that list this morning, when I asked someone at Google about this work.
<bret> ill keep my eyes out too
<tantek> I'm going to point out that "search" and "email" and "app linking" are not among the use-cases / scope that we're looking at in this WG - so EVERY example shown in <a href= "http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html"> http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html</a> is out of scope for this working group
<bret> ack! sorry
<tantek> NONE of those are social
Where do we stand? Are there any issues?
<aaronpk> the only example there that's social is the RSVP example in gmail
<tantek> so yes, there is a thing called schema, created by an oligopoly, used for use-cases *specific* to those in the oligopoly, and *none* of it related to anything social (person to person)
<tantek> I'm going to keep pushing back on this - I see no actual *social* use of schema on the *web* from any of the examples given.
Members asked to look at the document and provide feedback. Use GitHub issue tracker.
<tantek> gmail-specific proprietary extensions does not count as social web, sorry to say.
<wilkie> +1 tantek
<aaronpk> +1 tantek
<tantek> also as noted in the comments on that page: "confusing that the screenshots don't match the examples"
<Shane> I have to head out now, sorry. I agree with the points tantek is making.
<tantek> so basically, I don't believe that "schemaorg-actions-implementations" page at all
<tiborKatelbach> +1 tantek
<wilkie> schema, from that list especially, seems to not have social-web implementations but rather corporate opportunistic uses that will likely be thrown away
<tantek> we can safely ignore schema
<tantek> for purposes of this wg
We should clarifiy the role of WG, IG and CG. Volunteer?
<tiborKatelbach> all this should be shared outside of this group, unless I missed them out there
<tantek> akuckartz_: please rephrase that as a question about the charters
<Loqi> tantek meant to say: akuckartz_: please rephrase that as a question about the charters
<tantek> of WG and IG
<tantek> roles are defined in the charters
<elf-pavlik> Arnaud: community groups - free form, can produce documents but binding only to members of group
Rephrased as suggested by elf-pavlk and others
<elf-pavlik> Arnaud: working groups - in charge of producing actual specifications and have set time to deliver
<elf-pavlik> Arnaud: overlap in WG and IG and we rely on it
<elf-pavlik> overlap in membership
WG is limited in time, Chairs of WG and IG are in contact
I will do the rest tomorrow!
bye<a name="action01" id="action01"></a>
<tantek> ACTION: Arnaud to Add "What is the role of Social WG, IG and CG?" as an FAQ to <a href= "https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#FAQ">https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#FAQ</a> [recorded in <a href= "http://www.w3.org/2014/09/16-social-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2014/09/16-social-minutes.html#action01</a>]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Add "what is the role of social wg, ig and cg?" as an faq to <a href= "https://www.w3.org/wiki/socialwg#faq">https://www.w3.org/wiki/socialwg#faq</a> [on Arnaud Le Hors - due 2014-09-23].
<bret> sorry about the noise
<elf-pavlik> sandro, what about this post?
<tiborKatelbach> tantek I think you should write and share your thoughts about comparing the 2 vocabularies , it could be usefull for newcommers out there
<tantek> tiborKatelbach: there are too many secondary vocabularies to bother with
<tantek> schema is a non-openly developed bloated vocabulary used for very specific big-company vertical uses
<tiborKatelbach> at least to put away the ones from an oligopoly
<elf-pavlik> tantek, i don't disagree but at the same time has some advantages - eg. learning materials <a href= "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB94dIamAQc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB94dIamAQc</a>
<tantek> I'm going to ignore it until someone in this WG actually decides to publish it on their own site (in all seriousness, not just as a test)
<tiborKatelbach> I'm undersstanding this now but was looking for such info a while back and found nothing of the kind
<tantek> tiborKatelbach: what info are you looking for?
<elf-pavlik> tantek, my website ATM uses mostly schema.org + others when needed <a href="https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json"> https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json</a>
<tiborKatelbach> before starting working I was looking around
<elf-pavlik> i know, i know i need to ask friendly hosts to fix their service ASAP ;)
<aaronpk> elf-pavlik: your home page is a JSON file?
<rhiaro> Not looked into it deeply, but would publish schema.org for seo purposes.. That's all though
<tiborKatelbach> for critics about schema being oushed by the big players
<Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
<tantek> elf-pavlik: for testing or ?
<tiborKatelbach> I wanted to know why I shouldn't use it
<tantek> what actual use-case are you solving with it?
<elf-pavlik> i would prefer use other web search engines but for now most people uses big ones, so them understanding data i publish seems to me an advantage
<tiborKatelbach> I build for example a event ticketing system , Json-ld based on schema.org
<tantek> elf-pavlik: those search engines also all support open microformats
<tantek> so there is no need to do the extra work for schema
<Arnaud> tantek: for the record, I don't think it's very polite to give people actions without their consent :)
<tiborKatelbach> what ever I'm building from now on, I'm structuring based on a common vocab
<tantek> Arnaud: I gave you a clerical action - you already answered the question in the minutes :)
<tiborKatelbach> which I thought was schema untill I joined SWG
<tantek> I figured since you were chair that wasn't too much of an ask :)
<tantek> so a lot of this is "how to get your stuff into Google's proprietary aggregation"
<tantek> none of it is social
<aaronpk> SEO is not a social use case
<elf-pavlik> +1 Arnaud (on not assigning tasks to others!)
<tantek> right, we should document that explicitly as a non-use-case for the WG
<Arnaud> tiborKatelbach: are you officially a member of the WG?
<elf-pavlik> tantek, how about self hosted community hubs aggregating events
<tantek> elf-pavlik: URL?
<elf-pavlik> and why to force people to - you either show up in indie hub OR google/yahoo/bing/yandex results
<tiborKatelbach> only requested for the moment
<tantek> elf-pavlik: not true - as google/yahoo/bing/yandex results support indexing microformats as well
<Arnaud> you requested an Invited Expert status?
<tiborKatelbach> I made the request but got no responses
<Arnaud> yeah, something went wrong with the Invited Expert application system
<tiborKatelbach> I follow the form
<tiborKatelbach> oh ok
<Arnaud> are you affiliated with a W3C member organization?
<tiborKatelbach> should I try again ?
<tantek> tiborKatelbach: I see your entry here <a href= "https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Applied_for_Membership">https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Applied_for_Membership</a>
<Arnaud> which organization?
<bret> aaronpk, do the #social loqi logs have a homescreen shortcut?
<elf-pavlik> tantek, can you maybe add links to support of microformats by 'big players' to <a href= "https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Vocabulary_Comparison">https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Vocabulary_Comparison</a>
<tiborKatelbach> NGO Open Atlas, or company O.R.D
<aaronpk> bret: yes <a href= "http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today?bookmark">http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today?bookmark</a>
<Arnaud> wait, open atla isn't a member of w3c, is it?
<tiborKatelbach> we are a small NGO
<tiborKatelbach> I'm registered personnaly and represent them , I didn't think it was necessary , but I can go ahead if yo like
<Arnaud> the W3C is a member organization
<Arnaud> organizations that want to participate have to become a member
<Arnaud> and pay the associated membership due
<tiborKatelbach> it's non profit and doesnt have much funds for the moment
<Arnaud> as an effort to be as inclusive as possible the w3c also allows limited participation of invited experts
<tiborKatelbach> when it will , we'll suport
<Arnaud> for the latter, you need to apply - which I guess you did
<tiborKatelbach> yes I did
<Arnaud> invited expert status is granted at the discretion of the chairs and w3c staff
<tiborKatelbach> and I'm registered in several groups
<Arnaud> well, you're not registered on this group :)
<tiborKatelbach> does that mean I wont be ?
<tiborKatelbach> I don't undestand ?
<Arnaud> what do you not understand? I'm happy to explain
<deiu> tiborKatelbach: you can only participate in this group if you are either a member of an affiliated organization (with W3C membership) or you have been approved as an invited expert
<tiborKatelbach> as I received no response I don't know the status of the registration , will it be discussed ?
<Arnaud> ok, I understand
<Arnaud> your application is pending
<tiborKatelbach> ok that's fine
<Arnaud> as I said, it's a bit messy unfortunately because we have had problems with the invited expert application system
<Arnaud> normally the chairs are notified automatically, we haven't been
<tiborKatelbach> so now you've found my lost request , right ?
<Arnaud> yes :)
<tiborKatelbach> that's the begining of the good news
<Arnaud> ok, gotta go
<tantek> good night!
<tiborKatelbach> bye everyone !
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Arnaud to Add "What is the role of Social WG, IG and CG?" as an FAQ to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#FAQ [recorded in <a href= "http://www.w3.org/2014/09/16-social-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2014/09/16-social-minutes.html#action01</a>]
[End of minutes]
<address> Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href= "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm"> scribe.perl</a> version 1.138 (<a href= "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)
$Date: 2014-09-16 18:30:41 $ </address>