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Unfinished DRAFT based on

16 Sep 2014

<a href= ''>Agenda</a>

See also: <a href= "">IRC log</a>


elf-pavlik, +972.3.645.aaaa, dromasca, +1.503.342.aabb, Arnaud, +1.559.707.aacc, aaronpk, Sandro, +1.412.370.aadd, +1.303.204.aaee, jasnell, wilkie, dskiba, deiu, jtauber, Shane, barnabywalters, markus, akuckartz_, oshepherd, +26226234aaff, bret, tiborKatelbach


RESOLUTION: approve minutes from last week




ACTION-4: Add "what is the role of social wg, ig and cg?" as an faq to


<Arnaud> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 16 September 2014

<barnabywalters> I just joined


<hhalpin> Apologies, wil have to be in IRC rather than phone.

<hhalpin> having a separate meeting at same time.

<aaronpk_> You've got to be kidding. Who plugged in a modem to the call?

<barnabywalters> wow such noises

<Shane> That may have been me, sorry

<barnabywalters> huh it might have been me somehow

<Shane> I will not be able to use microphone but have managed to get onto the call to listen

can anybody hear me


<Shane> akuckartz_: No

<elf-pavlik> <a href= ""></a>

<barnabywalters> P9 is me

then P10 seems to be me...

<barnabywalters> the 41# tip is handy

I seem to be muted but I can try to scribe

yes, but I am muted

Ok, I will try

<Arnaud> scribe: akuckartz_

<deiu> scribenick: akuckartz_

<Shane> I tend to have SIP drop out 30 mins in, but just requires reconnecting

searching for the tpics

Approval of Minutes of 9 September 2014 Teleconf

<hhalpin> <a href= ""></a>

<Arnaud> <a href= ""></a>

<hhalpin> <a href= ""></a>

<elf-pavlik> i made one small edit to minutes today: <a href= ""></a>

Tracking of Actions and Issues

Difficult without beeing able to speak...

<Arnaud> <a href= ""></a>

action 1 closed.

<trackbot> Error finding '1'. You can review and register nicknames at <<a href= "">>.</a>

close action 1

<elf-pavlik> <a href= ""></a>

next action will be closed by end of week.

close action 3.


Reminder: Registration required to participate in TPAC

<elf-pavlik> <a href= ""></a>

<elf-pavlik> <a href= ""></a>

See <a href= ""></a> for details

<hhalpin> Note if you reigster quickly you get a discount on price! Register by Oct 1st - 75 USD vs. 150 USD I think..

Members are asked to provide input for agenda.

<Shane> I've added myself as a remote (depending on times, I'm UK based)

<elf-pavlik> <a href= ""></a>

<bret> i just joined the call

<tantek> I propose we use at least 50% of the time of the socialwg TPAC f2f for Barcamp-style sessions.

<Arnaud> ack ??P9

For participants see <a href= ""></a>


We need to finish the list of use-cases at some point. F2F should be used to finish this.

<barnabywalters> huh

<tiborKatelbach> sorry

<barnabywalters> I’m actually dropping out in a sec

<barnabywalters> so you can have my ID :(

<barnabywalters> :)

<tantek> I don't think " finish the list of use-cases" makes sense

<Loqi> it'll be ok

<tantek> I'd rather see the list of use-cases grow over time

<barnabywalters> tiborKatelbach: dial 41# and see what Zakim says

<tiborKatelbach> 41#

<Shane> I agree with tantek, we don't want to limit it too much but just make sure we are working within the scope of the charter

<wilkie> tiborKatelbach: was that you that 41#?

<tiborKatelbach> yep

<tiborKatelbach> sorry

<elf-pavlik> wiki down? <a href= ""></a>

<elf-pavlik> <a href= ""></a>

<tiborKatelbach> please repeat the type of use cases your looking for ?

<elf-pavlik> I'll work in next days on <a href= ""></a>

I try

<tantek> elf-pavlik: before working on the use-case I'd suggest getting your site working!

<elf-pavlik> tantek, of course but friends who host it need to fix their server, i'll sort it out in next days!

Question discussed: Will we create a "final" use case document or one in parallel to the work of the WG?

<tantek> akuckartz_: I don't think any such "final" document makes sense.

<tantek> dated snapshots maybe

<tantek> but we should assuming living use-cases documentation

<rhiaro> +1 to living use case document

Requirements will be based on the use-cases

Members invited to seriously look at the use cases

<rhiaro> People find new crazy things to do with social technology all the time [citation needed]

<Shane> Why is check-in a different page to the other use-cases?

Who will take ownership of the use case document ? Should be more than one person.

<wilkie> with social systems, I believe you are as close to human creativity as possible, so you have to be flexible and use-cases will be surprising and develop as you go

<tantek> why does there need to be "ownership" of the use case document?

<elf-pavlik> I suggested that for group collaboration use cases we can just make sure that we cover our needs for W3 groups

<rhiaro> +1 wilkie

Social Syntax

<elf-pavlik> i didn't create it :) i think james?

This page was created: <a href= ""></a>

<elf-pavlik> akuckartz_, did you capture it?

Members should look at that page. Google invited to join this WG.

especially regarding

<sandro> elf-pavlik, and everyone else, feel free to scribe your own words

<Shane> I do like the idea of being interoperable across syntaxes if possible

Question discussed: do we need to select one vocabulary or can we be more open ?

<tantek> we should document existing vocabularies *in use* with *actual examples* of URLs of usage

Minimum vocabulary subset should be specified

<markus> do we have a list of what is currently missing in

<tantek> why frame it as "missing in"?

<tantek> why use as a starting point at all?

<markus> because someone just said some things are missing in

<tantek> it's shown to be badly overdesigned, e.g. /Volcano has faxmachine

<markus> I'm wondering what those things are

<elf-pavlik> tantek, strong incentive for people to use it - Google, Yahoo, Bing, Yandex supporting it

<tantek> what's missing in is any sense of minimal design

<wilkie> I agree with having a standard and reasonable subset and then allow graceful extensibility of vocab.

<tantek> elf-pavlik: they claim to use it - actual support is unknown

<wilkie> a minimal base that is

<tantek> is a horrible starting point

<tantek> elf-pavlik: could you document actual evidence of Google, Yahoo, Bing, Yandex supporting it beyond validation tools?

<tantek> which objects? which properties?

<tantek> not only do I think that's futile, but a waste of time

<markus> why tantek? bad design? too complex? ...?

<tantek> both

<sandro> tantek, <a href= ""></a>

There is no consensus regarding

<elf-pavlik> <a href= ""></a>

<tantek> and frankly, out of order for this working group, since we're working on *openly developed* vocabularies

<tantek> and schema has been developed by an oligopoly at best

<markus> what hasn't? :-)

<tantek> markus - nearly everything else

<tantek> e.g. vCard, hCard, h-card etc.

<tantek> everything in microformats, ActivityStreams etc. was developed fully openly

<tiborKatelbach> as James said it is important to try to pull someone from into our discussions

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud, -- suggests to fucs on what we need and then based on that look at vocabularies

<tantek> so no, I see no reason to include any use of schema unless there is a member here who feels they need it

We first need to identify and define the information we want to exchange. Then we have a basis for the vocabularies.

<tantek> how about documenting the information we *are* exchanging?

<elf-pavlik> oshepherd, can you add you point to <a href= ""></a>

<tantek> as opposed to *want to*

<elf-pavlik> +1 tantek

<tantek> I'd rather make this *real world usage* based

<bret> sandro thats a nice list, but its search centric. any use in a social applicaiton?

<tantek> rather than *arm chair wishlist* based

<rhiaro> I've looked at wrt connecting humans with creative media they publish in the web (which is in scope for social I reckon) and found it hit and miss, generally not a lot of use

<bret> i guess the email thing is social, but limited to gmail

<tantek> right

<wilkie> microformats and activitystreams > for everything tantek has said about openness in particular

<markus> +1000 to start with use cases and requirements

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud, -- emphasizes importance of gathering USE CASES and agreeing on them

<wilkie> real world usage and use cases should drive the minimal base vocab/actions

<sandro> bret, I have no idea, sorry. I just was handed that list this morning, when I asked someone at Google about this work.

<bret> ill keep my eyes out too

AcivityStreams 2.0

<tantek> I'm going to point out that "search" and "email" and "app linking" are not among the use-cases / scope that we're looking at in this WG - so EVERY example shown in <a href= ""></a> is out of scope for this working group

<bret> ack! sorry

<tantek> NONE of those are social

Where do we stand? Are there any issues?

<aaronpk> the only example there that's social is the RSVP example in gmail

<tantek> so yes, there is a thing called schema, created by an oligopoly, used for use-cases *specific* to those in the oligopoly, and *none* of it related to anything social (person to person)

<tantek> I'm going to keep pushing back on this - I see no actual *social* use of schema on the *web* from any of the examples given.

Members asked to look at the document and provide feedback. Use GitHub issue tracker.

<tantek> gmail-specific proprietary extensions does not count as social web, sorry to say.

<wilkie> +1 tantek


<aaronpk> +1 tantek

<tantek> also as noted in the comments on that page: "confusing that the screenshots don't match the examples"

<Shane> I have to head out now, sorry. I agree with the points tantek is making.

<tantek> so basically, I don't believe that "schemaorg-actions-implementations" page at all

<tiborKatelbach> +1 tantek

<wilkie> schema, from that list especially, seems to not have social-web implementations but rather corporate opportunistic uses that will likely be thrown away

<tantek> we can safely ignore schema

<tantek> for purposes of this wg

We should clarifiy the role of WG, IG and CG. Volunteer?

<tiborKatelbach> all this should be shared outside of this group, unless I missed them out there

<tantek> akuckartz_: please rephrase that as a question about the charters

<Loqi> tantek meant to say: akuckartz_: please rephrase that as a question about the charters

<tantek> of WG and IG

<tantek> roles are defined in the charters

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud: community groups - free form, can produce documents but binding only to members of group

Rephrased as suggested by elf-pavlk and others

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud: working groups - in charge of producing actual specifications and have set time to deliver

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud: overlap in WG and IG and we rely on it

<elf-pavlik> overlap in membership

WG is limited in time, Chairs of WG and IG are in contact

I will do the rest tomorrow!


<a name="action01" id="action01"></a>

<tantek> ACTION: Arnaud to Add "What is the role of Social WG, IG and CG?" as an FAQ to <a href= ""></a> [recorded in <a href= ""></a>]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Add "what is the role of social wg, ig and cg?" as an faq to <a href= ""></a> [on Arnaud Le Hors - due 2014-09-23].

<sandro> <a href= ""></a>

<bret> sorry about the noise

<elf-pavlik> sandro, what about this post?

<tiborKatelbach> tantek I think you should write and share your thoughts about comparing the 2 vocabularies , it could be usefull for newcommers out there

<tantek> tiborKatelbach: there are too many secondary vocabularies to bother with

<tantek> schema is a non-openly developed bloated vocabulary used for very specific big-company vertical uses

<tiborKatelbach> at least to put away the ones from an oligopoly

<elf-pavlik> tantek, i don't disagree but at the same time has some advantages - eg. learning materials <a href= ""></a>

<tantek> I'm going to ignore it until someone in this WG actually decides to publish it on their own site (in all seriousness, not just as a test)

<tiborKatelbach> I'm undersstanding this now but was looking for such info a while back and found nothing of the kind

<tantek> tiborKatelbach: what info are you looking for?

<elf-pavlik> tantek, my website ATM uses mostly + others when needed <a href=""></a>

<tiborKatelbach> before starting working I was looking around

<elf-pavlik> i know, i know i need to ask friendly hosts to fix their service ASAP ;)

<aaronpk> elf-pavlik: your home page is a JSON file?

<rhiaro> Not looked into it deeply, but would publish for seo purposes.. That's all though

<tiborKatelbach> for critics about schema being oushed by the big players

<Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting

<tantek> elf-pavlik: for testing or ?

<tiborKatelbach> I wanted to know why I shouldn't use it

<tantek> what actual use-case are you solving with it?

<elf-pavlik> i would prefer use other web search engines but for now most people uses big ones, so them understanding data i publish seems to me an advantage

<tiborKatelbach> I build for example a event ticketing system , Json-ld based on

<tantek> elf-pavlik: those search engines also all support open microformats

<tantek> so there is no need to do the extra work for schema

<Arnaud> tantek: for the record, I don't think it's very polite to give people actions without their consent :)

<tiborKatelbach> what ever I'm building from now on, I'm structuring based on a common vocab

<tantek> Arnaud: I gave you a clerical action - you already answered the question in the minutes :)

<tiborKatelbach> which I thought was schema untill I joined SWG

<elf-pavlik> or stuff like: Getting your events into the Knowledge Graph <a href= ""></a>

<tantek> I figured since you were chair that wasn't too much of an ask :)

<tantek> so a lot of this is "how to get your stuff into Google's proprietary aggregation"

<tantek> none of it is social

<aaronpk> SEO is not a social use case

<elf-pavlik> +1 Arnaud (on not assigning tasks to others!)

<tantek> right, we should document that explicitly as a non-use-case for the WG

<Arnaud> tiborKatelbach: are you officially a member of the WG?

<elf-pavlik> tantek, how about self hosted community hubs aggregating events

<tantek> elf-pavlik: URL?

<elf-pavlik> and why to force people to - you either show up in indie hub OR google/yahoo/bing/yandex results

<tiborKatelbach> only requested for the moment

<tantek> elf-pavlik: not true - as google/yahoo/bing/yandex results support indexing microformats as well

<elf-pavlik> next 3 days we will work on <a href= ""></a>

<Arnaud> you requested an Invited Expert status?

<tiborKatelbach> I made the request but got no responses

<elf-pavlik> we already have prove of concept where people can publish their profiles for examle using <a href= ""></a> instead of filling up google form

<Arnaud> yeah, something went wrong with the Invited Expert application system

<tiborKatelbach> I follow the form

<tiborKatelbach> oh ok

<Arnaud> are you affiliated with a W3C member organization?

<aaronpk> <a href= ""></a> is a community event aggregator, all events are marked up with the h-event microformats2 vocab

<tiborKatelbach> should I try again ?

<tiborKatelbach> yes

<tantek> tiborKatelbach: I see your entry here <a href= ""></a>

<Arnaud> which organization?

<bret> aaronpk, do the #social loqi logs have a homescreen shortcut?

<elf-pavlik> tantek, can you maybe add links to support of microformats by 'big players' to <a href= ""></a>

<tiborKatelbach> NGO Open Atlas, or company O.R.D

<aaronpk> bret: yes <a href= ""></a>

<tantek> elf-pavlik: see <a href= ""></a>

<Arnaud> wait, open atla isn't a member of w3c, is it?

<tiborKatelbach> we are a small NGO

<elf-pavlik> tiborKatelbach, <a href= ""></a>

<tiborKatelbach> I'm registered personnaly and represent them , I didn't think it was necessary , but I can go ahead if yo like

<Arnaud> the W3C is a member organization

<Arnaud> organizations that want to participate have to become a member

<Arnaud> and pay the associated membership due

<tiborKatelbach> it's non profit and doesnt have much funds for the moment

<Arnaud> as an effort to be as inclusive as possible the w3c also allows limited participation of invited experts

<tiborKatelbach> when it will , we'll suport

<Arnaud> for the latter, you need to apply - which I guess you did

<tiborKatelbach> yes I did

<Arnaud> invited expert status is granted at the discretion of the chairs and w3c staff

<tiborKatelbach> and I'm registered in several groups

<Arnaud> well, you're not registered on this group :)

<tiborKatelbach> does that mean I wont be ?

<tiborKatelbach> I don't undestand ?

<Arnaud> what do you not understand? I'm happy to explain

<deiu> tiborKatelbach: you can only participate in this group if you are either a member of an affiliated organization (with W3C membership) or you have been approved as an invited expert

<tiborKatelbach> as I received no response I don't know the status of the registration , will it be discussed ?

<Arnaud> ok, I understand

<Arnaud> your application is pending

<tiborKatelbach> ok that's fine

<tiborKatelbach> thanks

<Arnaud> as I said, it's a bit messy unfortunately because we have had problems with the invited expert application system

<Arnaud> normally the chairs are notified automatically, we haven't been

<tiborKatelbach> so now you've found my lost request , right ?

<Arnaud> yes :)

<tiborKatelbach> :)

<tiborKatelbach> that's the begining of the good news

<Arnaud> ok, gotta go

<Arnaud> ttyl

<tantek> good night!

<tiborKatelbach> bye everyone  !

Summary of Action Items

 [NEW] ACTION: Arnaud to Add
 "What is the role of Social WG, IG and CG?" as an FAQ to [recorded in <a href=
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2014-09-16 18:30:41 $ </address>