Publishing WG — WAM Task Force Telco — Minutes

Date: 2018-03-16

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log


Present: Ivan Herman, Zheng Xu, Franco Alvarado, Dave Cramer, Benjamin Young, Hadrien Gardeur, Romain Deltour, Tzviya Siegman, Tim Cole, Matt Garrish



Chair: Benjamin Young

Scribe(s): Dave Cramer


1. Work organization, high level issues

Benjamin Young: Our project space:

Benjamin Young: how do we come at these problems as a group, and organize our project?
… I’ve found everything with topic:manifest
… we’re focusing on what might go into WAM
… they have an extension mechanism
… we need to figure out what we need to talk to WAM task force about
… feel free to fix any labeling issues
… any questions?
… we have an unknown column
… the definitely column has to go to WAM
… handled elsewhere means, ‘this isn’t us’

Ivan Herman: there are two things
… when we say to WAM, “we need these things” or adaptations
… but sometimes what they have there we can use, even if the name is weird
… these two things are not the same

Benjamin Young: should we change column labels?

Ivan Herman: a new column where we say we just use WAM

Hadrien Gardeur:

Ivan Herman: Hadrien made a list of those

Benjamin Young: some of these are large issues, which may be removed from this board

Romain Deltour: some of these issues are buckets indeed, and we may split them into smaller issues
… these columns are helpful for triage
… we have to figure which features can be added with current WAM extension mechanism
… and which features might need an additional layer on top of WAM, like an API
… we can refine labels and issues

Tzviya Siegman: Hadrien’s proposal for using WAM

Tzviya Siegman: and

2. triage of specific issues

Benjamin Young: let’s work through this left-hand column


Benjamin Young: we should close #32 and take it off the board

Ivan Herman: one of those horrendously long things…

Tzviya Siegman: ivan, do you think we can close issues here?

Ivan Herman: we should propose it, but let group decide.

Proposed resolution: mark #32 as “propose to close” and remove from WAM TF project (Benjamin Young)

Romain Deltour: we could leave open and continue to comment

Benjamin Young: let’s leave open and mention in other issues

Romain Deltour: +1

Ivan Herman: +1

Tim Cole: +1

Benjamin Young: new proposal is to leave open but remove from project

Proposed resolution: leave #32 open but remove it from the project; mention it in other issues (Benjamin Young)

Benjamin Young: issue #127 is next, it’s a similar thing
… with more actionable commentary, and links to other issues


Benjamin Young:

Romain Deltour: let’s add another column for issues from which we want to extract smaller issues before closing

Proposed resolution: move #127 into new Extract Smaller Issues column (Benjamin Young)

Ivan Herman: +1

Tim Cole: +1

Benjamin Young: +1

Romain Deltour: +1


Benjamin Young: this may be one of the more general things, and it might be mislabeled

Benjamin Young: “Obtaining language from http headers” is the title of #54

Ivan Herman: if I do an http request to the publication, I may get a language tag
… the way the issue is formulated is not exact
… the question is what do we do with that language tag?
… that language tag is the language of the resource itself, and we can’t change that
… the language we use in the manifest is something else
… it is the language of the terms in the manifest
… whatever comes in from HTTP is irrelevant for the manifest itself

Hadrien Gardeur: that’s not entirely true
… what you said is right for the resources of the publication
… for the WAM, people do translate the manifest itself
… based on accept-language header, they do negotiation, and return a translated manifest
… so we need to separate language of resource from language of manifest

Ivan Herman: I understand
… I have impression that what they do is incorrect

Hadrien Gardeur: on the web your browser requests a language, and server returns that language

Ivan Herman: if I make an http request, I get an html file, and from the html file I link to the manifest
… what I get from http is the language of the resource

Hadrien Gardeur: you can do indirection
… if I say accept-langage: fr I might get french manifest

Benjamin Young: it’s very nuanced and not related to our task with WAM
… the WAM inbound language stuff defines only the content of the WAM
… it does not dictate language of resources of the web app
… I’m not sure this is a WAM issue, but it may be an issue of publication-wide…

Ivan Herman: Hadrien is right when we look at the HTTP response for the manifest file itself
… this is a “handled elsewhere” item

Hadrien Gardeur: right now our infoset is consistent with WAM
… and in our WebIDL
… it provides default language for members of manifest
… but we’re consistent

Ivan Herman: the http header does that
… I would say that issue is subject to close

Hadrien Gardeur: there could be lang negotiation on resources ourselves

Benjamin Young: the way the web works is no one considers the WAM language a default

Hadrien Gardeur: we’re doing the same thing in the infoset

Ivan Herman: it’s only about the metadata

Proposed resolution: move #54 to “handled elsewhere” column and possibly mark as “possibly close” (Benjamin Young)

Romain Deltour: sounds good

Benjamin Young: +1


Benjamin Young: next issue is #58

Hadrien Gardeur: this is infoset related. shouldn’t be here

Benjamin Young: do we have an infoset label?

Ivan Herman: no

Hadrien Gardeur: there’s a label for metadata

Proposed resolution: remove topic:manifest label from #58 and move to “handled elsewhere” column (Benjamin Young)


Benjamin Young: #67
… should linking from manifest support URI templates?

Ivan Herman: guilty on that one
… I would postpone to next version. Let’s not go down that road now.

Tzviya Siegman: we have a defer label

Dave Cramer: (musical interlude)

Hadrien Gardeur: your idea of using uri template was different from mine
… and easy way of declaring a bunch of resources are part of default reading order etc
… i think that use case is impossible
… but for providing user search or api, we’re going to need URI templates
… the impact on webidl and spec is minimal
… we just need a flag for a URL
… it’s fine to defer, but we need to separate this concept from using templates for declaring a list of resources

Ivan Herman: as I said, postpone

Proposed resolution: remove #67 from the WAM project board and mark as “postpone” (Benjamin Young)

Romain Deltour: +1

Ivan Herman: +1

Ivan Herman: I don’t think this is a part of a minimum viable project

Tim Cole: +1

Dave Cramer: +1


Benjamin Young: next is #59
… avoiding resource declaration duplication

Hadrien Gardeur: I think this is easy to solve
… in RWPM what’s in the reading order doesn’t need to be in list of resources
… EPUB has a lot of duplication, and the id/idref thing

Ivan Herman: in a sense, this is a meta issue, this is how we should do all our thing
… keep it as handled elsewhere

Hadrien Gardeur: infoset and serialization

Proposed resolution: move #59 to “handled elsewhere” (Benjamin Young)

Romain Deltour: it’s also infoset

Benjamin Young: move to ‘handled elsewhere’

Ivan Herman: then I will also add topic:metadata


Benjamin Young: next is #63

Romain Deltour: remove from project board

Benjamin Young: this is not related to manifest

Proposed resolution: remove #63 from the board; change labels (Benjamin Young)

Tzviya Siegman: we’ll call it “bikeshed” :)


Benjamin Young: next is #163

Ivan Herman: this is indirectly with the WAM
… we want from WAM we may want to link to other metadata
… the privacy policy may have it’s own vocab
… just like linking to ONIX

Romain Deltour: I agree there’s a general issue
… but there might be differences depending on the manifest
… some handled in WAM, some externally

Proposed resolution: move #163 to “possibly” column (Benjamin Young)

Ivan Herman: now we say “possibly”

Hadrien Gardeur: this one is mine along with linking to external metadata record and a third one… linking to alt rep
… I think all three should be “possibly”

Benjamin Young: also

Hadrien Gardeur: they could have a common tech solution

Benjamin Young: also

Proposed resolution: move to #159, #162, #163 the “possibly” column (Benjamin Young)

Hadrien Gardeur: WAM has links, they are just specialized

Ivan Herman: they are link to specific resources, which is different than linking to metadata

Benjamin Young: it’s not the expectation of this task force to find a home for all things in WAM
… we don’t know if we’ll go there with our entire infoset
… depends on what they’re willing to do, and what might be better elsewhere

Romain Deltour: Marcos was lukewarm about generic metadata in WAM
… the basic principle was that metadata in WAM should be directly beneficial to end user (agent)
… if we think otherwise, then we need to document with use cases and build our case to present to wam editors (and TAG)

Hadrien Gardeur: for alt rep and privacy, these are actionable for end user
… I think we need to make sure that whatever is publication specific should be at collection level, in WAM
… most can go through generic extension mechanism
… we should only worry about when we have conflicts
… or things that are useful for the larger community

Benjamin Young: I don’t think we’re looking at the WAM cohesively
… it’s just config settings for a runtime
… and category data for app stores
… the things that might make it into WAM are things that might help with creating a runtime, like a privacy policy
… right now they say link to it
… privacy settings might go in a manifest, but not a privacy policy
… there’s a conceptual difference between what WAM is and what they expect it to be

Romain Deltour: when Hadrien said that we can solve things with extensions, we don’t have to go to the group

Romain Deltour: I think we should go to them, we would hope that some of our extensions are implemented by browsers
… we should liaise with the editors even as we use their extension mechanism

Hadrien Gardeur: we have to do that anyway
… there’s a big difference between using an extension, and changing the manifest itself
… I disagree with Benjamin. If we’re not using the wam for defining a collection, and we spread information around, I don’t see the point of using the WAM
… for an extension we would declare reading order, and if we don’t what’s the point?

Zheng Xu: I get confused about who consumes the manifest? publisher? reading system vendor?
… if we define affordance layer, it could be extension of WAM
… but a web publication is different than web app, as the creator is not a developer
… I want to focus more on infoset which is related to creator/publisher
… might not to need extension or related to WAM


Benjamin Young: #73, modification date

Proposed resolution: relabel 73 as info set; remove from project (Benjamin Young)

Benjamin Young: relabel and remove, as it’s an infoset question

Romain Deltour: +1

Benjamin Young: next is 118


Benjamin Young: break up into smaller things?

Hadrien Gardeur: yes


Benjamin Young: #119, using RWPM

Hadrien Gardeur: not related to WAM, but an alternate proposal
… even if we go with WAM this can inspire extensions


Ivan Herman: JSON manifest as script element–we have to discuss this with WAM
… we shouldn’t spend time on it now


Hadrien Gardeur: this is mostly useful for single resource publication

Benjamin Young: #148
… limiting reading order to manifest

Hadrien Gardeur: infoset-related

Benjamin Young: removed from the board


Benjamin Young: 126, progression direction
… probably remove or handled elsewhere?

Ivan Herman: it’s something that we would put in our extension, and they shouldn’t fuss

Hadrien Gardeur: this goes in possibly, because it’s part of our extension


Benjamin Young: 167
… roles for creators

Hadrien Gardeur: how do we express creators in general in our serialization?
… this is definitely possibly
… we should discuss with WAM
… as this is not publication specific

Tzviya Siegman: see ivan’s comment

Zheng Xu: there is a lot of duplication between creators and ONIX
… can this information be related similar to ONIX?

Hadrien Gardeur: handling ONIX is like spending your holiday in hell
… and we shouldn’t assume we’ll get ONIX
… and there is never ONIX for some kinds of publications

Benjamin Young: the wam’s way of doing metadata is scary, as they make a new top-level key for everything

Hadrien Gardeur: you need creator/dev/company even in web apps
… MS has been using manifest for their store

Proposed resolution: move #167 to “possibly” and add refined use cases (Benjamin Young)

Ivan Herman: we’re at the top of the hour

Romain Deltour: +1

Ivan Herman: #150 is comments to Brady from Chrome team; 90% was for infoset rather than what we’re discussing now
… let’s put in handle elsewhere column

Romain Deltour: Next call: March 28th (2 weeks from today) @ 14:00 UTC

Ivan Herman: