Publishing WG — WAM Task Force Telco — Minutes
Date: 2018-03-16
See also the Agenda and the IRC Log
Attendees
Present: Ivan Herman, Zheng Xu, Franco Alvarado, Dave Cramer, Benjamin Young, Hadrien Gardeur, Romain Deltour, Tzviya Siegman, Tim Cole, Matt Garrish
Regrets:
Guests:
Chair: Benjamin Young
Scribe(s): Dave Cramer
Content:
- 1. Work organization, high level issues
- 2. triage of specific issues
- 2.1. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/32
- 2.2. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/127
- 2.3. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/54
- 2.4. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/58
- 2.5. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/67
- 2.6. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/59
- 2.7. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/63
- 2.8. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/163
- 2.9. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/73
- 2.10. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/118
- 2.11. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/119
- 2.12. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/122
- 2.13. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/148
- 2.14. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/126
- 2.15. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/167
1. Work organization, high level issues
Benjamin Young: Our project space: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/projects/3
Benjamin Young: how do we come at these problems as a group, and organize our project?
… I’ve found everything with topic:manifest
… we’re focusing on what might go into WAM
… they have an extension mechanism
… we need to figure out what we need to talk to WAM task force about
… feel free to fix any labeling issues
… any questions?
… we have an unknown column
… the definitely column has to go to WAM
… handled elsewhere means, ‘this isn’t us’
Ivan Herman: there are two things
… when we say to WAM, “we need these things” or adaptations
… but sometimes what they have there we can use, even if the name is weird
… these two things are not the same
Benjamin Young: should we change column labels?
Ivan Herman: a new column where we say we just use WAM
Hadrien Gardeur: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/127#issuecomment-363063172
Ivan Herman: Hadrien made a list of those
Benjamin Young: some of these are large issues, which may be removed from this board
Romain Deltour: some of these issues are buckets indeed, and we may split them into smaller issues
… these columns are helpful for triage
… we have to figure which features can be added with current WAM extension mechanism
… and which features might need an additional layer on top of WAM, like an API
… we can refine labels and issues
Tzviya Siegman: Hadrien’s proposal for using WAM https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/118
Tzviya Siegman: and https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/127
2. triage of specific issues
Benjamin Young: let’s work through this left-hand column
2.1. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/32
Benjamin Young: we should close #32 and take it off the board
Ivan Herman: one of those horrendously long things…
Tzviya Siegman: ivan, do you think we can close issues here?
Ivan Herman: we should propose it, but let group decide.
Proposed resolution: mark #32 as “propose to close” and remove from WAM TF project (Benjamin Young)
Romain Deltour: we could leave open and continue to comment
Benjamin Young: let’s leave open and mention in other issues
Romain Deltour: +1
Ivan Herman: +1
Tim Cole: +1
Benjamin Young: new proposal is to leave open but remove from project
Proposed resolution: leave #32 open but remove it from the project; mention it in other issues (Benjamin Young)
Benjamin Young: issue #127 is next, it’s a similar thing
… with more actionable commentary, and links to other issues
2.2. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/127
Benjamin Young: https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/127#issuecomment-362548707
Romain Deltour: let’s add another column for issues from which we want to extract smaller issues before closing
Proposed resolution: move #127 into new Extract Smaller Issues column (Benjamin Young)
Ivan Herman: +1
Tim Cole: +1
Benjamin Young: +1
Romain Deltour: +1
2.3. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/54
Benjamin Young: this may be one of the more general things, and it might be mislabeled
Benjamin Young: “Obtaining language from http headers” is the title of #54
Ivan Herman: if I do an http request to the publication, I may get a language tag
… the way the issue is formulated is not exact
… the question is what do we do with that language tag?
… that language tag is the language of the resource itself, and we can’t change that
… the language we use in the manifest is something else
… it is the language of the terms in the manifest
… whatever comes in from HTTP is irrelevant for the manifest itself
Hadrien Gardeur: that’s not entirely true
… what you said is right for the resources of the publication
… for the WAM, people do translate the manifest itself
… based on accept-language header, they do negotiation, and return a translated manifest
… so we need to separate language of resource from language of manifest
Ivan Herman: I understand
… I have impression that what they do is incorrect
Hadrien Gardeur: on the web your browser requests a language, and server returns that language
Ivan Herman: if I make an http request, I get an html file, and from the html file I link to the manifest
… what I get from http is the language of the resource
Hadrien Gardeur: you can do indirection
… if I say accept-langage: fr I might get french manifest
Benjamin Young: it’s very nuanced and not related to our task with WAM
… the WAM inbound language stuff defines only the content of the WAM
… it does not dictate language of resources of the web app
… I’m not sure this is a WAM issue, but it may be an issue of publication-wide…
Ivan Herman: Hadrien is right when we look at the HTTP response for the manifest file itself
… this is a “handled elsewhere” item
Hadrien Gardeur: right now our infoset is consistent with WAM
… and in our WebIDL
… it provides default language for members of manifest
… but we’re consistent
Ivan Herman: the http header does that
… I would say that issue is subject to close
Hadrien Gardeur: there could be lang negotiation on resources ourselves
Benjamin Young: the way the web works is no one considers the WAM language a default
Hadrien Gardeur: we’re doing the same thing in the infoset
Ivan Herman: it’s only about the metadata
Proposed resolution: move #54 to “handled elsewhere” column and possibly mark as “possibly close” (Benjamin Young)
Romain Deltour: sounds good
Benjamin Young: +1
2.4. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/58
Benjamin Young: next issue is #58
Hadrien Gardeur: this is infoset related. shouldn’t be here
Benjamin Young: do we have an infoset label?
Ivan Herman: no
Hadrien Gardeur: there’s a label for metadata
Proposed resolution: remove topic:manifest label from #58 and move to “handled elsewhere” column (Benjamin Young)
2.5. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/67
Benjamin Young: #67
… should linking from manifest support URI templates?
Ivan Herman: guilty on that one
… I would postpone to next version. Let’s not go down that road now.
Tzviya Siegman: we have a defer label
Dave Cramer: (musical interlude)
Hadrien Gardeur: your idea of using uri template was different from mine
… and easy way of declaring a bunch of resources are part of default reading order etc
… i think that use case is impossible
… but for providing user search or api, we’re going to need URI templates
… the impact on webidl and spec is minimal
… we just need a flag for a URL
… it’s fine to defer, but we need to separate this concept from using templates for declaring a list of resources
Ivan Herman: as I said, postpone
Proposed resolution: remove #67 from the WAM project board and mark as “postpone” (Benjamin Young)
Romain Deltour: +1
Ivan Herman: +1
Ivan Herman: I don’t think this is a part of a minimum viable project
Tim Cole: +1
Dave Cramer: +1
2.6. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/59
Benjamin Young: next is #59
… avoiding resource declaration duplication
Hadrien Gardeur: I think this is easy to solve
… in RWPM what’s in the reading order doesn’t need to be in list of resources
… EPUB has a lot of duplication, and the id/idref thing
Ivan Herman: in a sense, this is a meta issue, this is how we should do all our thing
… keep it as handled elsewhere
Hadrien Gardeur: infoset and serialization
Proposed resolution: move #59 to “handled elsewhere” (Benjamin Young)
Romain Deltour: it’s also infoset
Benjamin Young: move to ‘handled elsewhere’
Ivan Herman: then I will also add topic:metadata
2.7. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/63
Benjamin Young: next is #63
Romain Deltour: remove from project board
Benjamin Young: this is not related to manifest
Proposed resolution: remove #63 from the board; change labels (Benjamin Young)
Tzviya Siegman: we’ll call it “bikeshed” :)
2.8. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/163
Benjamin Young: next is #163
Ivan Herman: this is indirectly with the WAM
… we want from WAM we may want to link to other metadata
… the privacy policy may have it’s own vocab
… just like linking to ONIX
Romain Deltour: I agree there’s a general issue
… but there might be differences depending on the manifest
… some handled in WAM, some externally
Proposed resolution: move #163 to “possibly” column (Benjamin Young)
Ivan Herman: now we say “possibly”
Hadrien Gardeur: this one is mine along with linking to external metadata record and a third one… linking to alt rep
… I think all three should be “possibly”
Benjamin Young: also https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/162
Hadrien Gardeur: they could have a common tech solution
Benjamin Young: also https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/159
Proposed resolution: move to #159, #162, #163 the “possibly” column (Benjamin Young)
Hadrien Gardeur: WAM has links, they are just specialized
Ivan Herman: they are link to specific resources, which is different than linking to metadata
Benjamin Young: it’s not the expectation of this task force to find a home for all things in WAM
… we don’t know if we’ll go there with our entire infoset
… depends on what they’re willing to do, and what might be better elsewhere
Romain Deltour: Marcos was lukewarm about generic metadata in WAM
… the basic principle was that metadata in WAM should be directly beneficial to end user (agent)
… if we think otherwise, then we need to document with use cases and build our case to present to wam editors (and TAG)
Hadrien Gardeur: for alt rep and privacy, these are actionable for end user
… I think we need to make sure that whatever is publication specific should be at collection level, in WAM
… most can go through generic extension mechanism
… we should only worry about when we have conflicts
… or things that are useful for the larger community
Benjamin Young: I don’t think we’re looking at the WAM cohesively
… it’s just config settings for a runtime
… and category data for app stores
… the things that might make it into WAM are things that might help with creating a runtime, like a privacy policy
… right now they say link to it
… privacy settings might go in a manifest, but not a privacy policy
… there’s a conceptual difference between what WAM is and what they expect it to be
Romain Deltour: when Hadrien said that we can solve things with extensions, we don’t have to go to the group
Romain Deltour: I think we should go to them, we would hope that some of our extensions are implemented by browsers
… we should liaise with the editors even as we use their extension mechanism
Hadrien Gardeur: we have to do that anyway
… there’s a big difference between using an extension, and changing the manifest itself
… I disagree with Benjamin. If we’re not using the wam for defining a collection, and we spread information around, I don’t see the point of using the WAM
… for an extension we would declare reading order, and if we don’t what’s the point?
Zheng Xu: I get confused about who consumes the manifest? publisher? reading system vendor?
… if we define affordance layer, it could be extension of WAM
… but a web publication is different than web app, as the creator is not a developer
… I want to focus more on infoset which is related to creator/publisher
… might not to need extension or related to WAM
2.9. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/73
Benjamin Young: #73, modification date
Proposed resolution: relabel 73 as info set; remove from project (Benjamin Young)
Benjamin Young: relabel and remove, as it’s an infoset question
Romain Deltour: +1
Benjamin Young: next is 118
2.10. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/118
Benjamin Young: break up into smaller things?
Hadrien Gardeur: yes
2.11. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/119
Benjamin Young: #119, using RWPM
Hadrien Gardeur: not related to WAM, but an alternate proposal
… even if we go with WAM this can inspire extensions
2.12. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/122
Ivan Herman: JSON manifest as script element–we have to discuss this with WAM
… we shouldn’t spend time on it now
2.13. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/148
Hadrien Gardeur: this is mostly useful for single resource publication
Benjamin Young: #148
… limiting reading order to manifest
Hadrien Gardeur: infoset-related
Benjamin Young: removed from the board
2.14. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/126
Benjamin Young: 126, progression direction
… probably remove or handled elsewhere?
Ivan Herman: it’s something that we would put in our extension, and they shouldn’t fuss
Hadrien Gardeur: this goes in possibly, because it’s part of our extension
2.15. https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/167
Benjamin Young: 167
… roles for creators
Hadrien Gardeur: how do we express creators in general in our serialization?
… this is definitely possibly
… we should discuss with WAM
… as this is not publication specific
Tzviya Siegman: see ivan’s comment https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/167#issuecomment-373455166
Zheng Xu: there is a lot of duplication between creators and ONIX
… can this information be related similar to ONIX?
Hadrien Gardeur: handling ONIX is like spending your holiday in hell
… and we shouldn’t assume we’ll get ONIX
… and there is never ONIX for some kinds of publications
Benjamin Young: the wam’s way of doing metadata is scary, as they make a new top-level key for everything
Hadrien Gardeur: you need creator/dev/company even in web apps
… MS has been using manifest for their store
Proposed resolution: move #167 to “possibly” and add refined use cases (Benjamin Young)
Ivan Herman: we’re at the top of the hour
Romain Deltour: +1
Ivan Herman: #150 is comments to Brady from Chrome team; 90% was for infoset rather than what we’re discussing now
… let’s put in handle elsewhere column
Romain Deltour: Next call: March 28th (2 weeks from today) @ 14:00 UTC
Ivan Herman: https://github.com/w3c/scribejs