EPUB 3 Working Group Telco — Minutes

Date: 2021-08-19

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log

Attendees

Present: Dave Cramer, Masakazu Kitahara, Wendy Reid, Shinya Takami (高見真也), Dan Lazin

Regrets: Brady Duga, Matthew Chan, John Foliot, Ben Schroeter, Toshiaki Koike

Guests:

Chair: Dave Cramer, We don’t have anything to say about this

Scribe(s): Wendy Reid

Content:

Wendy Reid: https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/epub/calendar

Wendy Reid: [general calendar things]

1. Vocabularies

Dave Cramer: See Appendix on vocabularies

See github issue #1763.

Dave Cramer: Main topic for today is the vocabularies
… we had a substantial discussion in the last meeting about what to do with the structural semantics vocabulary (SSV)
… there are some concerns about asserting some of the vocabularies as substantive
… some of these values don’t have behaviours attached, some do
… given our overarching goal of reaching W3C recommendation status and interoperability
… what we have to show here is that a particular vocabulary item is used by document authors, not necessarily used by reading systems
… i.e., epub:type="bodymatter"
… even though it doesn’t impact the rendering of EPUBs
… it seems to me that we need to collect some information about these values
… especially from anyone creating EPUBs and using these terms
… Ivan was also interested in moving the vocabularies into a separate note
… I’m unsure
… we just embarked on a long process of moving things here from their various homes
… to codify it for anyone looking to learn about EPUB
… or what properties to use with the item element
… are the terms normative
… is the appendix normative
… in the last meeting we explored moving the SSV vocabulary to a non-normative note
… that’s what I’m doing here, exploring the other side
… I think it would be good as a group to note what terms are used
… and to get that information from other parts of the publishing world
… we do want to demonstrate wide use of these terms to defend retaining them
… any thoughts?

Murata Makoto: I always try to avoid these things

Dave Cramer: Same
… do we think it’s enough to gather information on them for now

Shinya Takami (高見真也): I think some prefixes for fxl or epub:type are used in many cases
… it’s necessary to maintain some of these for interoperability
… but may not be required to be normative
… I’m in support of moving them out

Murata Makoto: Even if we specify these values, do reading systems care?

Dave Cramer: Some are important, like nav or cover-image
… the FXL properties are important
… and have an impact on rendering
… one of my goals is to have this spec match reality
… there’s already deprecated values amongst these vocabs
… if our research shows that more are aspirational than realistic
… I do want to inform an author of that fact
… Are we good to collect some information on these terms to help us make a decision on this?

Wendy Reid: +1

Murata Makoto: +1

Shinya Takami (高見真也): +1

Proposed resolution: Do a research study into the usage of the vocabularies in EPUB authoring (Wendy Reid)

Dave Cramer: +1

Wendy Reid: +1

Shinya Takami (高見真也): +1

Masakazu Kitahara: +1

Resolution #1: Do a research study into the usage of the vocabularies in EPUB authoring

Dave Cramer: I will figure out a methodology for this

2. Explain the purpose of the landmarks nav (issue epub-specs#1761)

See github issue #1761.

Dave Cramer: explain the purpose of the landmarks nav
… I don’t think I want to have this discussion without Matt and Brady
… and with no representatives of the a11y activity
… I would propose we postpone this discussion
… We don’t have the right people in the virtual room for this one

Shinya Takami (高見真也): Kadokawa uses landmarks for our EPUB files

Dave Cramer: We use it minimally
… mainly to provide a link for the TOC

Dan Lazin: A learning opportunity
… why were landmarks added? What were they meant to do?
… seems like they conflict

Dave Cramer: My understanding is that they came from the OEB/EPUB2 feature called “guide”
… there was an original element in the OPF called a guide where you could provide a tour of the highlights of the book
… signposts
… pointers into the content that was different from the TOC
… providing quick references to glossaries or indexes, special features, etc
… when UI conventions in EPUB hadn’t been solidified
… some RSs have exposed these before in their UI
… but is happening less and less
… as EPUB has stabilized and matured

Dan Lazin: This sounds like a widget that has been deprecated

Dave Cramer: I wouldn’t argue with that

Shinya Takami (高見真也): In the past, Kindle wasn’t able to use the navigation element, so it used this
… so we used landmarks in place of that

Dave Cramer: We have some homework
… thanks everyone!

3. Resolutions