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23:28:59 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
23:28:59 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dauwhe
23:29:08 <dauwhe> meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telecon
23:29:13 <dauwhe> chair: dauwhe
23:29:22 <dauwhe> Date: 2021-08-19
23:29:39 <dauwhe> dauwhe has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Aug/0021.html
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23:58:42 <dauwhe> present+
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23:59:09 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
23:59:10 <wendyreid> present+
00:00:34 <shiestyle> present+
00:02:11 <dauwhe> regrets+ Duga, MattChan, JF
00:03:34 <wendyreid> scribe+
00:04:44 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/epub/calendar
00:06:18 <wendyreid> wendyreid: [general calendar things]
00:06:22 <dauwhe> Topic: https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/core/#app-vocabs
00:06:29 <wendyreid> dauwhe: Main topic for today is the vocabularies
00:06:48 <wendyreid> ... we had a substantial discussion in the last meeting about what to do with the structural semantics vocabulary (SSV)
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00:07:31 <wendyreid> ... there are some concerns about asserting some of the vocabularies as substantive
00:07:43 <wendyreid> ... some of these values don't have behaviours attached, some do
00:08:00 <wendyreid> ... given our overarching goal of reaching W3C recommendation status and interoperability
00:08:33 <wendyreid> ... what we have to show here is that a particular vocabulary item is used by document authors, not necessarily used by reading systems
00:08:41 <wendyreid> ... i.e. epub:type="bodymatter"
00:08:50 <wendyreid> ... even though it doesn't impact the rendering of EPUBs
00:09:06 <wendyreid> ... it seems to me that we need to collect some information about these values
00:09:20 <wendyreid> ... especially from anyone creating EPUBs and using these terms
00:09:34 <wendyreid> ... Ivan was also interested in moving the vocabularies into a separate note
00:09:38 <wendyreid> ... I'm unsure
00:09:54 <wendyreid> ... we just embarked on a long process of moving things here from their various homes
00:10:08 <wendyreid> ... to codify it for anyone looking to learn about EPUB
00:10:21 <wendyreid> ... or what properties to use with the item element
00:10:25 <wendyreid> ... are the terms normative
00:10:31 <wendyreid> ... is the appendix normative
00:10:43 <wendyreid> ... in the last meeting we explored moving the SSV vocabulary to a non-normative note
00:10:50 <dauwhe> q?
00:10:52 <wendyreid> ... that's what I'm doing here, exploring the other side
00:11:17 <wendyreid> ... I think it would be good as a group to note what terms are used
00:11:27 <wendyreid> ... and to get that information from other parts of the publishing world
00:11:46 <wendyreid> ... we do want to demonstrate wide use of these terms to defend retaining them
00:12:08 <wendyreid> ... any thoughts?
00:12:24 <wendyreid> MURATA: I always try to avoid these things
00:12:28 <wendyreid> dauwhe: Same
00:12:40 <wendyreid> ... do we think it's enough to gather information on them for now
00:12:40 <shiestyle> q+
00:12:51 <dauwhe> ack shi
00:13:09 <wendyreid> shiestyle: I think some prefixes for fxl or epub:type are used in many cases
00:13:28 <wendyreid> ... it's necessary to maintain some of these for interoperability
00:13:38 <wendyreid> ... but may not be required to be normative
00:13:45 <wendyreid> ... I'm in support of moving them out
00:13:58 <wendyreid> MURATA: Even if we specify these values, do reading systems care?
00:14:10 <wendyreid> dauwhe: Some are important, like nav or cover-image
00:14:21 <wendyreid> ... the FXL properties are important
00:14:35 <wendyreid> ... and have an impact on rendering
00:14:45 <wendyreid> ... one of my goals is to have this spec match reality
00:14:55 <wendyreid> ... there's already deprecated values amongst these vocabs
00:15:07 <wendyreid> ... if our research shows that more are aspirational than realistic
00:15:16 <wendyreid> ... I do want to inform an author of that fact
00:15:21 <dauwhe> q?
00:15:51 <wendyreid> dauwhe: Are we good to collect some information on these terms to help us make a decision on this?
00:15:53 <wendyreid> +1
00:15:58 <wendyreid> MURATA: +1
00:16:00 <shiestyle> +1
00:16:38 <wendyreid> PROPOSED: Do a research study into the usage of the vocabularies in EPUB authoring
00:16:50 <dauwhe> +1
00:16:54 <wendyreid> +1
00:16:54 <shiestyle> +1
00:16:55 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:17:16 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Do a research study into the usage of the vocabularies in EPUB authoring
00:17:52 <wendyreid> dauwhe: I will figure out a methodology for this
00:18:07 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1761
00:18:22 <wendyreid> dauwhe: This one is challenging
00:18:29 <wendyreid> ... explain the purpose of the landmarks nav
00:18:39 <wendyreid> ... I don't think I want to have this discussion without Matt and Brady
00:18:50 <wendyreid> ... and with no representatives of the a11y activity
00:19:02 <wendyreid> ... I would propose we postpone this discussion
00:19:26 <wendyreid> chairs: We don't have anything to say about this
00:19:42 <wendyreid> dauwhe: We don't have the right people in the virtual room for this one
00:19:55 <wendyreid> shiestyle: Kadokawa uses landmarks for our EPUB files
00:20:03 <dlazin> q+
00:20:05 <wendyreid> dauwhe: We use it minimally
00:20:11 <wendyreid> ... mainly to provide a link for the TOC
00:20:17 <dauwhe> ack dl
00:20:27 <wendyreid> dlazin: A learning opportunity
00:20:36 <wendyreid> ... why were landmarks added? What were they meant to do?
00:20:40 <wendyreid> ... seems like they conflict
00:20:47 <shiestyle> q+
00:21:00 <wendyreid> dauwhe: My understanding is that they came from the OEB/EPUB2 feature called "guide"
00:21:19 <wendyreid> ... there was an original element in the OPF called a guide where you could provide a tour of the highlights of the book
00:21:22 <wendyreid> ... signposts
00:21:31 <wendyreid> ... pointers into the content that was different from the TOC
00:21:56 <wendyreid> ... providing quick references to glosarries or indexs, special features, etc
00:22:08 <wendyreid> ... when UI conventions in EPUB hadn't been solidified
00:22:17 <wendyreid> ... some RSs have exposed these before in their UI
00:22:23 <wendyreid> ... but is happening less and less
00:22:28 <wendyreid> ... as EPUB has stabilized and matured
00:22:46 <wendyreid> dlazin: This sounds like a widget that has been deprecated
00:23:08 <wendyreid> dauwhe: I wouldn't argue with that
00:23:25 <wendyreid> shiestyle: In the past, Kindle wasn't able to use the navigation element, so it used this
00:23:33 <wendyreid> ... so we used landmarks in place of that
00:24:29 <wendyreid> dauwhe: We have some homework
00:24:54 <wendyreid> ... thanks everyone!
00:25:08 <dauwhe> Zakim, end meeting
00:25:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, MasakazuKitahara, wendyreid, shiestyle, dlazin
00:25:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:25:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/19-epub-minutes.html Zakim
00:25:13 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dauwhe; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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