EPUB 3 Working Group A11y Telco — Minutes

Date: 2021-06-24

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log


Present: Avneesh Singh, Laura Brady, George Kerscher, Tzviya Siegman, Will Awad, Matt Garrish, Bill Kasdorf, Charles LaPierre, Ben Schroeter



Chair: Avneesh Singh

Scribe(s): Charles LaPierre


1. Page source when no source 

See github issue #1599.

Avneesh Singh: PR: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1697/files/839fbaf8c98e7423a0bc6becfa3750472c17d868

Matt Garrish: should not provide source if there is no paper source for the pagination.
… should provide if there is an actual source. even if the page #’s are virtual

Proposed resolution: Identify the source in the metadata only if the static pages correspond to another version of the publication, and not when the publication is source of its own pagination. (Avneesh Singh)

Charles LaPierre: 0

Matt Garrish: +1

Ben Schroeter: +1

Tzviya Siegman: +1

Bill Kasdorf: +1

Laura Brady: +1

Will Awad: +1

Resolution #1: Identify the source in the metadata only if the static pages correspond to another version of the publication, and not when the publication is source of its own pagination.

2. Digital Only Page Breaks

See github issue #1622.

Avneesh Singh: The issue has gone in different directions. We have been discussing reading systems using algorithm for creating static pagebreaks and another discussion is about new accessibility metadata issue.
… reading systems and distributerscan insert page numbers, but I think we should be concerned only with the static page numbers/marks provided by publishers because page navigation in different instances of the publication can be consistent if it comes from publishers. The implementation of auto generated page markers can differ from one distributor to another and from one reading system to another.

… But the main topic of this issue is value ` for accessibilityFeatures=printPageNumbers`
… should we add another for digital only? And does this work belong to this group or to the Publishing CG (a lot of accessibility metadata work is happening there)?

Matt Garrish: abuse of dc:source if there is a print equivalent. we have two pieces of metadata printPageNumbers that you have a source that there is a source paper .
… need to look at what we have and maybe we can provide page list, but this may not be the group to do this, and we need to formalize the schema.org metadata values. Where is the correct group to do this. and maintain this information and hash out these additional issues.

Avneesh Singh: EPUB accessibility specs are normative, and schema.org metadata is not part of it, its only in the techniques. So may not be required to address here.

Tzviya Siegman: Where did this start from IDPF?

Matt Garrish: Originally this work was done from Benetech and WGBH

*Avneesh: we have control over the values. Regarding decision on the governance group for accessibility metadata values of schema.org, I will be sending an email with the investigation.

George Kerscher: the locators WG we will be discussing this, the publishers need to do this and I don’t think that anyone else shouldn’t have the ability to do and could be issues with copyright, and for a11y Summary and virtual page breaks have been added as well as a page list.
… virtual page #’s need to be added to do citations, and maybe they have an agreement to modify the books to add page #’s upon ingestion.

Avneesh Singh: static page #’s inside the EPUB is best done by the publishers.
… Regarding a11y metadata values we can do this here or the Publishing CG, decide who could take over the governance of these values and defer this issue for now.

3. alt text for cover image

See github issue #1300.

Avneesh Singh: do we have enough data for providing recommendation to the EPUB3 WG? We got feedback from Readium 2 on issue tracker, and from another reading system developer who responded on email:

Avneesh Singh: We can parse any attribute whether it’s in the metadata or book content itself. The system of pre-processing before display ensures this. But no problem doing it on the front end either if it’s in the xhtml.

Charles LaPierre: wouldn’t it be duplicating info with title / author

Avneesh Singh: originally Charles and George was concerned that if an image provides additional information, a print disabled should have access to it.

George Kerscher: if the title & author is there then I agree for the most part that this would be decorative, and the “dragon book” example as it was referred to.

Matt Garrish: is this a bookshelf issue. is this you are trying to find out

Charles LaPierre: concerns about duplicating in the bookstore where this info could be in the book itself.

Tzviya Siegman: “NewYork best seller” is interesting use case. People tend to choose books by cover not sure if they also do the same for the alt text descriptions.

Bill Kasdorf: concern, sending ambiguous message having hard time what to do/not do for alt text. alt should convey information, text as image needs that text in the alt text. Text on the cover needs to be exposed. I don’t see we should make an exception.

Matt Garrish: not a description but a title is what we want, conflating issues here potentially
… its another name for this book, its a metadata not an alt text.

Tzviya Siegman: the alt text on the cover image page inside the book. this is not what is provided to the bookstore’s thumbnail view of the cover image.

Ben Schroeter: useful info is title/author we have other ways to express that information. In most cases providing that same information as alt text is redundant. If a book has a nickname can’t usually be anticipated, so publisher couldn’t put this as an alternative name when publishing. So I prefer to drop this extra information.

Tzviya Siegman: I agree with Ben nicknames … there is also in fiction the cover can be changed when movies come out. Original Art Cover, or Movie Cover. There are some that exist, but not sure how many so this is extra info that we are worrying too much about.

George Kerscher: I get the essential info I need, and am quite happy with it. I am with Ben. I don’t know where this image gets put on a website where that alt text will come from. but title and author is fine.

Avneesh Singh: should be close this or defer this issue to EPUB 3.4 or 4.0?

George Kerscher: if there are information the Publisher wants they can always put it in the EPUB on the actual cover image’s alt text.

Matt Garrish: is it realistic we will come back to this. maybe pub manifest and can figure it out. I would tend to say lets close it.

*Tzviya: +1 to closing it

Proposed resolution: close the issue 1300, since it is not looking high priority (Avneesh Singh)

Ben Schroeter: +1

Matt Garrish: +1

Charles LaPierre: +1

Bill Kasdorf: +1

Laura Brady: +1

Tzviya Siegman: +1

Will Awad: +1

George Kerscher: +1

Resolution #2: close the issue 1300, since it is not looking high priority

4. A11Y TF mapping requirements EU. WG Note in progress

Avneesh Singh: https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-eaa-mapping/

*Avneesh: congrats Christina, Gregorio and Luc who worked on that.

George Kerscher: should we continue working or take a break in July

Ben Schroeter: I am on for a break

Matt Garrish: there are potentially 0 issues. audio/video deferred to TPAC. rest seem to be resolved.

Avneesh Singh: looks like we are ahead of the timeline. Lets pause for July

George Kerscher: will we resume in August 2nd week of August & 4th.

Avneesh Singh: resume in Aug 2nd week. If there are some important issues, then there is a possibility to schedule a a11y call in July, else we will meet in August.

5. Resolutions