[Minutes] MLW-LT call 2013-04-17

Hi all,

today's minutes are at
http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html
and below as text. I cleaned up various parts manually, please check. 
Sorry for participating only via IRC. As typed on IRC during the call, 
it would be nice to get feedback on
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#its2-and-unicode-normalization
before the i18n WG call tomorrow (3 p.m. UTC).

Best,

Felix


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                                mlw-lt wg

17 Apr 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0099.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-irc

Attendees

    Present
           kfritsche, dF, philr, Karl, pnietoca, Jirka, Des,
           shaunm, mdelolmo, leroy, Ankit, fsasaki(onlyIRC), Yves,
           chriLi, tadej

    Regrets
           Jörg,Dom

    Chair
           david

    Scribe
           daveL

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]1) Review of issues 70 - 92
          2. [6]2) LC issues in general see
             http://tinyurl.com/its20-comments-handling
          3. [7]3) Change of regex for allowed characters
             https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/tr
             ack/issues/67
          4. [8]4) HTML translate
          5. [9]5) HTML defaults
             https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/tr
             ack/issues/118
          6. [10]6) Data categories that need mappings in the wiki
             See
             http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingua
             lweb-lt/2013Apr/0087.html
          7. [11]7) Importance of normalization See i18n WG
             discussion at
             https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/
             2013Apr/0021.html
      * [12]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

1) Review of issues 70 - 92

    <dF>
    [13]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/a
    ctions/465

      [13] 
https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/465

    <dF>
    [14]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/i
    ssues/pendingreview

      [14] 
https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/pendingreview

2) LC issues in general see
[15]http://tinyurl.com/its20-comments-handling

      [15] http://tinyurl.com/its20-comments-handling

    df: dave to check a close remaining issues offline, checking
    for response timeouts

    df: last four issues remaining at:

    [16]http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-its20-20130411/#unresolved-iss
    ues

      [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-its20-20130411/#unresolved-issues

    dF: asks if there are any other issues apart from those four?

    none raised

3) Change of regex for allowed characters
[17]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/
67

      [17] 
https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/67

    pablo: has produced ABNF to go into specification, and waiting
    on schema to validate regex

    dF: asks jirka is he is OK to make changes to schema

    jirka: we first need to agree grammar
    ... allow a few extra days so everyone is happy before
    addressing schema for regEx

    <fsasaki> hi dF, all, just for the record, I am happy to close
    the issue-67 without the schema change

    jirka: some points to clarify
    ... one issue is encoding beyond unicode
    ... BMP support, e.g. this was motivation for compatibility
    with some existing regex engine that don't have complete
    unicode support

    jirka: so people who raised this issue should check that they
    are now happy with regEx proposal from Pablo in this regard

    dF: felix happy to proceed without schema change, but have we
    stable regEx for schema

    <fsasaki> hi dF, just a clarifiation: we have to have stable
    ABNF (not regex)

    Jirka: agrees, doesn't need change to schema, but need to tie
    down option for encoding so that regex will work with these
    other engines

    df: feels we should stick to unicode
    ... asks WG if we are OK with Pablo to go ahead with suggested
    grammar

    pablo: but there are still some issues, related to allowed
    characters

    <pnietoca> it's issue 67, Yves raised it

    <Yves_> yes I'm here.

    <Yves_> yes

    dF: asks Yves as he raised topic originally

    <fsasaki> hi all, the issue is the dependency on XML Schema -
    issue-67 is about removing that dependency. Having the abnf
    specified is a way to resolve this

    <Yves_> sure

    dF: can pablo go ahead and raise regex given syntax for grammar
    agreed on the mailing list
    ... no objections just clarification, so Pablo please go ahead.
    ... with aim to close action for approval by next week

4) HTML translate

    <dF>
    [18]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/i
    ssues/97

      [18] 
https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/97

    df: should this be handled separately to HTML5 defaults issue?
    ... asks Jirka to report on development of HTML translate in
    HTML5 WG

    Jirka: nothing to report, things can be changed at any time at
    this point as it is still at CR stage
    ... so its hard to build on top of it right now

    dF: several options available.
    ... one is to drop it as no viable to nail down
    ... second is to wait for the HTML5 to stabalise
    ... third, set our own defaults
    ... Yves proposed the last

    jirka: support this as waiting for HTML5 could take a long time

    <Ankit> 3rd option

    dF: propose to issue on pending review, with resolution not to
    wait for HTML5 but make issue related to HTML5 defaults (up
    next)

    <pnietoca> I'm in favour of merging both issue

    <fsasaki> for the record, I would agree with our own defaults,
    but a question is what they relate to: all content labelled as
    HTML5 (there is no such label, btw), or each HTML fragment in
    the HTML namespace, or also including HTML legacy content
    without namespace?

5) HTML defaults
[19]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/
118

      [19] 
https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/118

    <Yves_>
    [20]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/HTM
    L5_Defaults

      [20] 
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/HTML5_Defaults

    dF: asks Yves to post link to proposed defaults

    <dF>
    [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Apr/0088.html

      [21] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0088.html

    <Yves_> not stable yet

    <Yves_> probably

    df: asks if content of defaults page is upto date
    ... propose making this page stable and then referring to this
    page

    <dF>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/HTM
    L5_Defaults

      [22] 
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/HTML5_Defaults

    dF: i.e. to implementing these stable defaults in the spec

    <Yves_> Is it fine to use a wiki page as a normative source?

    dF: asks everyone to review this and raise any objections
    ... better to have reference on wiki page as issue is complex

    <fsasaki> Hi Yves, yes, but we should have the wiki page in the
    ITS IG so that the update is easier, and a description in the
    ITS2 spec how the update of the wiki page should work

    dF: so we keep issue open and aim to resolve via wiki page by
    next call

    <fsasaki> +1

6) Data categories that need mappings in the wiki See
[23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/201
3Apr/0087.html

      [23] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0087.html

    <fsasaki> dF, can you discuss also the mail from jirka?

    <fsasaki> see
    [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
    lt/2013Apr/0110.html

      [24] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0110.html

    dF: move mapping to IG wiki
    ... but aim to continue work within MLW-LT and within its
    timeline over the remaining months
    ... ask felix if that is OK from a MLW-LT workgroup proceedure/

    christian: raises that version control for mapping is needed,
    specifically for quality mapping to specific LQI tools

    <chriLi>
    [25]http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-
    mappings.html

      [25] 
http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html

    <fsasaki> hi dF, Dave, not sure what "that" refers to. For a
    topic like the mapping it is ok to move to the ITS IG wiki now
    and also include input from outside.

    <fsasaki> hi christian, just to emphasize: the quality mapping
    is non-normative. Version control makes sense, but it won't
    influence the ITS2 spec - rather the way how the info is
    presented in the wiki

    felix, I mean that MLW-LT can continue develop mapping directly
    in IG wiki - so i guess yes

    <fsasaki> yes, thanks, daveL

    df: asks how this table in particular is version managed
    ... who developed the table

    <Yves_> Arle created the table

    <fsasaki> hi dF, the table is not version managed. it was
    developed by arle.

    <Yves_> (I think)

    <fsasaki> if people agree I'm ok to add a version info to
    [26]http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-
    mappings.html - do you want to give me an action item?

      [26] 
http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html

    <scribe> ACTION: fsasaki to add tool version info to
    [27]http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-
    mappings.html [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]

      [27] 
http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-492 - Add tool version info to
    [29]http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-
    mappings.html [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-04-24].

      [29] 
http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html

    <fsasaki> thanks

    christian: also not sure about the effect of this table - would
    it discourage implementation of ITS if the mapping existing
    ... suggest to include explicit statement to encourage
    implementation of ITS, rather than rely on mapping

    dF: implementation typically use such a mapping internally

    <fsasaki> hi christian, I think it depends on how you present
    the table, not on the table itself. I'm happy to add such an
    explicit statement to
    [30]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
    ts20/its20.html#lqissue-typevalues if you give me an action

      [30] 
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#lqissue-typevalues

    <scribe> ACTION: fsasaki to add comment to LQI tool mapping
    hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to
    conformance testing of ITs impementations [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-493 - Add comment to LQI tool mapping
    hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to
    conformance testing of ITs impementations [on Felix Sasaki -
    due 2013-04-24].

7) Importance of normalization See i18n WG discussion at
[32]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/002
1.html

      [32] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0021.html

    <fsasaki> hi all, my *tentative* proposal to resolve this is
    here
    [33]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
    ts20/its20.html#its2-and-unicode-normalization

      [33] 
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#its2-and-unicode-normalization

    <fsasaki> I sent that link also to the i18n wg, waiting for
    feedback - if you have feedback here please let me know

    <fsasaki> see my mail to i18n wg asking for feedback on
    "normalization" section at
    [34]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013A
    pr/0024.html

      [34] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0024.html

    dF: suggest non-normative text suggesting implementors include
    a normaliser implemenitng unicode nomalisation form C, see post
    form felix

    <fsasaki> (only visible to w3c members)

    dF: the aim is to encourge migration by implementors from
    legacy encoding to unicode

    <pnietoca> It seems good to me

    dF: supports this proposed solution
    ... other comments

    christian: clarifies, if a text analytics tool provides
    annotations it should use such a normaliser?

    <philr> When we say Unicode - we mean all encodings: utf-8,
    utf-16, etc.?

    dF: this is a non-normative piece of implementation guidance

    <fsasaki> hi christian, yes, like all other implementations of
    ITS2 - the normalization section doesn't differentate between
    what piece of the spec is implemented

    <fsasaki> hi philr - yes, all unicode, encouraging
    normalization form C

    christian: is this normalisation requirement similar to those
    in XLIFF, TMX etc?
    ... if not does it make ITS implementation seem more onerous
    than these others in comparison

    <fsasaki> hi christian, do you have pointers to the
    requirements in XLIFF, TMX etc.?

    dF: reports there are some normalisation statements in XLIFF in
    places, e.g. for content comparison

    <fsasaki> (to be able to answer your question)

    <fsasaki> answering the question: no. The requirement in ITS is
    a general one: when you process content on the web, assure that
    you have unicode in normalizaiton form C

    dF: this is the default behaviour in several places

    <fsasaki> (that is at least the purpose of the section). The
    requirement is not specific to selected processes (NIF, XPath
    execution, ...)

    dF: so the comparison to XLIFF is not to the detriment of
    ITS2.0 adoption

    <fsasaki> hi dF, daveL, what is the outcome of the
    normalization section discussion - any feedback for me to
    discuss with the i18n WG? Or can the i18n folks just look at
    [35]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/i
    ts20/its20.html#its2-and-unicode-normalization and give
    comments?

      [35] 
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#its2-and-unicode-normalization

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: fsasaki to add comment to LQI tool mapping
    hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to
    conformance testing of ITs impementations [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: fsasaki to add tool version info to
    [37]http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-
    mappings.html [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]

      [37] 
http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


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Received on Wednesday, 17 April 2013 17:31:18 UTC