12:07:00 Topic: Review of issues 70 - 92 12:07:00 https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/465 12:07:00 https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/pendingreview 12:07:00 Topic: LC issues in general see http://tinyurl.com/its20-comments-handling 12:07:00 df: dave to check a close remaining issues offline, checking for response timeouts 12:07:00 RRSAgent has joined #mlw-lt 12:07:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-irc 12:07:04 meeting: mlw-lt wg 12:07:06 chair: david 12:07:18 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0099.html 12:07:44 hi all, I'm only on irc, but can help with the scribing setup - is there a scribe? 12:08:02 scribe: daveL 12:08:03 df: last four issues remaining at: 12:08:04 dave is scribing 12:08:13 http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-its20-20130411/#unresolved-issues 12:08:23 present+ fsasaki 12:08:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:08:34 present+ kfritsche 12:08:48 dF; asks if there are any other issues apart from those four? 12:09:02 none raised 12:09:09 s/dF;/dF: 12:09:12 Topic: 3) Change of regex for allowed characters https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/67 12:09:44 chriLi has joined #mlw-lt 12:10:23 pablo: has produced ABNF to go into specification, and waiting on schema to validate regex 12:10:40 dF: asks jirka is he is OK to make changes to schema 12:10:54 jirka: we first need to agree grammar 12:11:21 ... allow a few extra days so everyone is happy before addressing schema for regEx 12:11:26 hi dF, all, just for the record, I am happy to close the issue-67 without the schema change 12:11:31 ... some points to clarify 12:11:36 present+ dF, philr, Karl, pnietoca, Jirka, Des, shaunm, mdelolmo, leroy, Ankit, fsasaki 12:12:06 jirka: one issue is encoding beyond unicode 12:12:38 s/, fsasaki/, fsasaki(onlyIRC)/ 12:13:06 ... BNP support, e.g. this was motivation for compatibility with some existing regex engine that don't have complete unicode support 12:13:32 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0093.html 12:13:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:13:40 ... so people who raised this issue should check that they are now happy with regEx proposal from Pablo in this regard 12:14:58 dF: felix happy to proceed without schema change, but have we stable regEx for schema 12:15:37 hi dF, just a clarifiation: we have to have stable ABNF (not regex) 12:15:58 Jirka: agrees, doesn't need change to schema, but need to tie down option for encoding so that regex will work with these other engines 12:16:02 s/BNP/BMP/ 12:16:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:16:25 df: feels we should stick to unicode 12:17:01 df: asks WG if we are OK with Pablo to go ahead with suggested grammar 12:17:28 pablo: but there are still some issues, related to allowed characters 12:17:29 Yves_ has joined #mlw-lt 12:17:29 it's issue 67, Yves raised it 12:17:41 yes I'm here. 12:17:49 present+ Yves 12:17:53 yes 12:18:00 dF; asks Yves as he raised topic originally 12:18:16 hi all, the issue is the dependency on XML Schema - issue-67 is about removing that dependency. Having the abnf specified is a way to resolve this 12:18:18 sure 12:18:23 ... can pablo go ahead and raise regex given syntax for grammar agreed on the mailing list 12:18:30 s/dF;/dF: 12:19:03 tadej has joined #mlw-lt 12:19:09 df: no objections just clarification, so Pablo please go ahead. 12:20:17 .. with aim to close action for approval by next week 12:20:24 Topic: 4) HTML translate 12:20:40 https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/97 12:21:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:21:25 df: should this be handled separately to HTML5 defaults issue? 12:22:12 ... asks Jirka to report on development of HTML translate in HTML5 WG 12:22:24 present+ chriLi 12:22:38 Jirka: nothing to report, things can be changed at any time at this point as it is still at CR stage 12:23:21 ... so its hard to build on top of it right now 12:23:50 dF: several options available. 12:24:00 present+ tadej 12:24:01 ... one is to drop it as no viable to nail down 12:24:24 ... second is to wait for the HTML5 to stabalise 12:24:36 ... third, set our own defaults 12:24:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:24:56 dF: Yves proposed the last 12:25:21 jirka: support this as waiting for HTML5 could take a long time 12:25:49 3rd option 12:26:25 dF: propose to issue on pending review, with resolution not to wait for HTML5 but make issue related to HTML5 defaults (up next) 12:27:04 I'm in favour of merging both issue 12:27:08 Topic: 5) HTML defaults https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/118 12:27:23 for the record, I would agree with our own defaults, but a question is what they relate to: all content labelled as HTML5 (there is no such label, btw), each HTML fragment in the HTML namespace, also including HTML legacy content without namespace? 12:27:41 Topic: HTML5 defaults 12:27:46 s/each/or each/ 12:27:49 s/also/or also/ 12:27:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:29:01 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/HTML5_Defaults 12:29:12 dF: asks Yves to post link to proposed defaults 12:29:20 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0088.html 12:29:56 not stable yet 12:30:18 probably 12:30:24 df: asks if content of defaults page is upto date 12:31:03 dF: propose making this page stable and then referring to this page 12:31:08 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/HTML5_Defaults 12:31:58 .. i.e. to implementing these stable defaults in the spec 12:32:01 Is it fine to use a wiki page as a normative source? 12:32:47 dF: asks everyone to review this and raise any objections 12:33:17 ... better to have reference on wiki page as issue is complex 12:33:50 Hi Yves, yes, but we should have the wiki page in the ITS IG so that the update is easier, and a description in the ITS2 spec how the update should work 12:33:56 s/update/update of the wiki page/ 12:34:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:36:35 dF: so we keep issue open and aim to resolve via wiki page by next call 12:36:47 +1 12:36:59 Topic: 6) Data categories that need mappings in the wiki See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0087.html 12:37:11 dF, can you discuss also the mail from jirka? 12:38:22 see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0110.html 12:38:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:39:46 dF: move mapping to IG wiki 12:41:02 ... but aim to continue work within MLW-LT and within its timeline over the remaining months 12:41:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:41:51 ... ask felix if that is OK from a MLW-LT workgroup proceedure/ 12:42:55 christian: raises that version control for mapping is needed, specifically for quality mapping to specific LQI tools 12:43:06 http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html 12:43:07 hi dF, Dave, not sure what "that" refers to. For a topic like the mapping it is ok to move to the ITS IG wiki now and also include input from outside. 12:43:57 hi christian, just to emphasize: the quality mapping is non-normative. Version control makes sense, but it won't influence the ITS2 spec - rather the way how the info is presented in the wiki 12:44:41 felix, I mean that MLW-LT can continue develop mapping directly in IG wiki - so i guess yes 12:44:57 yes, thanks, daveL 12:45:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:45:41 df: asks how this table in particular is version managed 12:45:56 ... who developed the table 12:46:22 Arle created the table 12:46:26 hi dF, the table is not version managed. it was developed by arle. 12:46:35 (I think) 12:46:55 if people agree I'm ok to add a version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html - do you want to give me an action item? 12:48:19 action: fsasaki to add tool version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html 12:48:19 Created ACTION-492 - Add tool version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-04-24]. 12:48:27 thanks 12:49:12 christian: also not sure about the effect of this table - would it discourage implementation of ITS if the mapping existing 12:50:04 ... suggest to include explicit statement to encourage implementation of ITS, rather than rely on mapping 12:50:33 dF: implementation typically use such a mapping internally 12:50:49 hi christian, I think it depends on how you present the table, not on the table itself. I'm happy to add such an explicit statement to http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#lqissue-typevalues if you give me an action 12:52:01 Topic: 7) Importance of normalization See i18n WG discussion at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0021.html 12:52:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:52:23 action: fsasaki to add comment to LQI tool mapping hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to conformance testing of ITs impementations 12:52:23 Created ACTION-493 - Add comment to LQI tool mapping hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to conformance testing of ITs impementations [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-04-24]. 12:52:57 Topic: 7) Importance of normalization See i18n WG discussion at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0021.html 12:53:37 hi all, my *tentative* proposal to resolve this is here http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#its2-and-unicode-normalization 12:54:07 I sent that link also to the i18n wg, waiting for feedback - if you have feedback here please let me know 12:54:28 see my mail to i18n wg asking for feedback on "normalization" section at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0024.html 12:54:29 dF; suggest non-normative text suggesting implementors include a normaliser implemenitng unicode nomalisation form C, see post form felix 12:54:33 (only visible to w3c members) 12:54:44 s/dF;/dF:/ 12:54:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:56:01 dF: the aim is to encourge migration by implementors from legacy encoding to unicode 12:56:05 It seems good to me 12:56:19 dF: supports this proposed solution 12:56:23 .. other comments 12:57:08 christian: clarifies, if a text analytics tool provides annotations it should use such a normaliser? 12:57:40 When we say Unicode - we mean all encodings: utf-8, utf-16, etc.? 12:57:45 dF: this is a non-normative piece of implementation guidance 12:58:01 hi christian, yes, like all other implementations of ITS2 - the normalization section doesn't differentate between what piece of the spec is implemented 12:58:31 hi philr - yes, all unicode, encouraging normalization form C 12:58:46 christian: is this normalisation requirement similar to those in XLIFF, TMX etc? 12:59:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 12:59:24 ... if not does it make ITS implementation seem more onerous than these others in comparison 13:00:12 hi christian, do you have pointers to the requirements in XLIFF, TMX etc.? 13:00:19 dF: reports there are some normalisation statements in XLIFF in places, e.g. for content comparison 13:00:21 (to be able to answer your question) 13:01:09 answering the question: no. The requirement in ITS is a general one: when you process content on the web, assure that you have unicode in normalizaiton form C 13:01:21 ... this is the default behaviour in several places 13:01:36 (that is at least the purpose of the section). The requirement is not specific to selected processes (NIF, XPath execution, ...) 13:01:44 ... so the comparison to XLIFF is not to the detriment of ITS2.0 adoption 13:02:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:02:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html daveL 13:02:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 13:03:04 Jirka has left #mlw-lt 13:04:41 hi dF, daveL, what is the outcome of the normalization section discussion - any feedback for me to discuss with the i18n WG? Or can the i18n folks just look at http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#its2-and-unicode-normalization and give comments 13:10:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki 14:36:24 action-492? 14:36:24 ACTION-492 -- Felix Sasaki to add tool version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html -- due 2013-04-24 -- OPEN 14:36:24 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/492 14:36:28 action-493? 14:36:28 ACTION-493 -- Felix Sasaki to add comment to LQI tool mapping hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to conformance testing of ITs impementations -- due 2013-04-24 -- OPEN 14:36:28 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/493 14:36:55 close action-492 14:36:55 Closed ACTION-492 Add tool version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html. 14:36:57 close action-493 14:36:57 Closed ACTION-493 Add comment to LQI tool mapping hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to conformance testing of ITs impementations. 14:37:33 action-491: done, see this thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0113.html 14:37:33 Notes added to ACTION-491 Invite RRSAgent. 14:37:45 close action-491 14:37:45 Closed ACTION-491 Invite RRSAgent. 14:37:58 action-491? 14:37:58 ACTION-491 -- David Filip to invite RRSAgent -- due 2013-04-24 -- CLOSED 14:37:58 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/491 14:39:29 action-481: done, see this thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Apr/0113.html 14:39:30 Notes added to ACTION-481 Confirm NIF changes before leaving last call. 14:39:34 close action-481 14:39:35 Closed ACTION-481 Confirm NIF changes before leaving last call. 14:48:17 rrsagent, bye 14:48:17 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-actions.rdf : 14:48:17 ACTION: fsasaki to add tool version info to http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/its20-tool-specific-mappings.html [1] 14:48:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-irc#T12-48-19 14:48:17 ACTION: fsasaki to add comment to LQI tool mapping hihglighting its informative nature and the separate need to conformance testing of ITs impementations [2] 14:48:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-mlw-lt-irc#T12-52-23