Minutes Sydney F2F 2016-02-02 Part I: A report on research into automatic layout, CSS Text, Round Display
A report on research into automatic layout
- Bert had visited groups from Monash University and YesLogic to hear about the work they’re doing creating algorithms in constraint spaces. Their algorithms not only take the known constraints, but can recompute as they get additional information.
- Uses for constraint solving include footnotes, sidenotes, indexing, table layout, and line breaking. It was mentioned some of this could be hooked in via Houdini.
- There was interest in working more with both groups, especially the expertise from the YesLogic folks. Specifically it was thought they would have useful feedback on the Grid spec.
Full Minutes
CSS Text
- There was agreement that there is a strong use case to solve for aligning to a particular character in table columns.
- Resolved: left-align the alignment characters.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Round Display
- Resolved: Add radial-gradient
side keywords to polar-distance. Mark issue for how to get e.g. from top left corner, 100% of shortest side.
- There was some uncertainty about how ‘contain’ should behave in relation to the previous resolution and in general. However, it was decided that decisions on if ‘contain’ should be a default behavior should wait on a final definition.
- The existing proposals for addressing polar positioning and abspos were discussed, but there were still unanswered questions.
- An outstanding concern that the mental model for this was the opposite of the mental model for the rest of CSS alignment to achieve the desired effect.
- Resolved: Make the following changes:
- Remove ‘polar’ value of ‘position’. Polar positioning applies to absolute/fixed/static/sticky/ relative positioned elements.
- Remove ‘auto’ value of ‘polar-distance’. Initial value is 0.
- Add ‘auto’ value to ‘polar-origin’. This means find the origin using normal rules for absolute/fixed/static/sticky/relative positioning.
- Make ‘auto’ initial value of ‘polar-origin’.
- Add an open issue as to whether top/right/bottom/left properties are ignored or interpreted somehow when ‘polar-origin’ is not ‘auto’.
- Note: polar-origin doesn’t apply to relatively-positioned elements. (Or mark an issue for making it apply somehow).
- Joone presented a proposal for supporting 3d transforms in round display. However, there were two major issues with this proposal:
- Transforms aren’t a positioning system. This proposal presumes that they are.
- Need use cases for what 3D polar coordinates.
- However, there was agreement that it might be interesting to add functions for using polar-positioning-like syntax as an alternate way to express existing transforms.
- The ability to support scrolling on a round display would best come from some of the scrolling work being done in Houdini.
- Since most pages are not designed for round displays, browsers on such devices simulate a rectangular viewport by designating a fully-visible area of the display. For pages that are prepared to handle the constraints of working with a round display, it was suggested to add an @viewport switch for authors to opt into the full viewport.
- Resolved: Publish new WD of Round Display, with polar positioning resolution incorporated (@viewport for next publication okay)
- The discussion from Sapporo about device-radius was revisited; originally it had been concluded that the query would no longer return a radius, but instead return if you’re visible or not.
- There was concern from LG about complexity and implementability.
- There was a suggestion that a qualitative query for “roundish” vs “squarish” would be useful, regardless.
- Florian will write up a proposal for this new media query.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Minutes Telecon 2016-04-06
- Everyone was reminded to add their information to the wiki if they’re coming to the F2F and book their travel if they haven’t already.
overflow-block and overflow-inline will be combined into overflow with properties to specify inline and block direction. fantasai will write up proposed text for the new properties.- Resolved: Add
infinite value to resolution media query.
- Florian will write up a proposal for a raster media query.
- There wasn’t much desire to add
grid-template back, but there wasn’t much objection either. fantasai will focus on making the grid shorthand more robust and solicit more author feedback.
- Resolved: Publish Sizing
- Everyone was actioned to review the entire Flexbox DoC. The items that need the most attention are issue #3 and an additional paragraph added to order accessibility to address concerns from the accessibility working group.
- Resolved: Accept TabAtkins proposal for
calc serialization and add a note that there remains a concern about editors getting access to the bare string.
- Everyone was asked to please contribute to the email thread on the test suite.
- fantasai introduced a wiki compiled by Nick Guarino listing all resolutions and actions regarding each spec.
Full Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2016-03-30
- Rossen gave the working group a summary of the requests and concerns from APAWG.
- Their main complaint is CSS creates inaccessible content when additional content is added, such as generated content. They were also concerned about content doing visual reordering. The primary request from the group was to start work on CSS AAM and the secondary request was to create a task force to ensure that AAM progresses.
- The group didn’t object to working on AAM, so Rossen will check to see if the work is covered in the charter or if it would require a re-charter.
- There wasn’t any strong sentiment that a task force was needed, though there was a suggestion that a liaison may help communication. A decision on this will wait until the charter investigation and further discussion on developing AAM.
- Resolved: Publish a new WD of Box Alignment with a note about the default behavior when safe and unsafe is not listed explicitly.
- Resolved: Publish new version of CSS Shapes
- Rossen brought his feedback from Microsoft to the group and he had three major concerns.
- It won’t be something they would want to spend time to implement
- Interoperability will be limited
- Authors will find the simplification confusing
TabAtkins was only on IRC, so discussion will continue on the mailing list so he can respond.
- Resolved: Add defining a minimum for the
onload property as an issue in the Media Queries spec.
Full Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2016-03-23
- The Selectors section of CSSOM will be on next week’s agenda and everyone should review it in advance.
- Tentatively the group decided to combine identical units and resolve all numeric and multiplication and division by numbers when discussing
calc simplification for serializing specified values. On next week’s call this will be resolved formally after implementors have had time to speak to the appropriate developers.
- Everyone accepted the rewrite of selectors grammer in terms of the value definition syntax and TabAtkins will add a note warning that if this is inconsistent with previous grammar, please send an issue because it’s probably wrong.
- Resolved: Accept this change to the ch unit definition.
- Resolved: Accept change for issue #5 of Values and Unit 3
- Resolved: Add edits to 2015 snapshot and then republish.
- Resolved: Start an ED for 2016 snapshot.
- Resolved: shorten minimum/maximum to min/max in exclusions values
- Resolved: Remove the on-demand value from hover.
- Resolved: Move light-level to the next level of Media Queries
Full Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2016-03-16
- There will be room for everyone on every day at the May F2F thanks to the efforts of Ojan and Shane. The Houdini group needs to decide if and when they’ll need room at TPAC.
- Resolved: Publish new WD of CSS Snap Points
- Step-sizing received favor as a new name for Snap Size.
- Several implementors hadn’t had time to review the spec. Though they were interested in solving the problem space, they weren’t prepared to affirm that this ED is the direction they believe the group should go to solve it. Implementors were given another week to review the spec in hopes of being able to resolve.
- Resolved: Republish 2015 Snap Shot with Will Change added.
- TabAtkins will write up a proposal for checkbox and radio buttons for next week detailing his thoughts while everyone else reviews the e-mails.
- Resolved: Allow
calc to be nested.
- Resolved: Drop
calc from nested calc and serialize it as parentheses.
calc simplification for serializing specified values will continue on the mailing list and be on next week’s agenda if needed.
Full Minutes
CSSOM and CSSOM View Drafts Updated
The CSS Working Group has published updated Working Drafts of CSSOM and CSSOM View. The CSSOM specification defines APIs for Media Queries, Selectors, CSS. The CSSOM View Module defines APIs for reading and manipulating the layout, scrolling, window size and position, etc.
Some APIs in CSSOM that have not been widely implemented have been removed; alternative stylesheet APIs, pseudo(), cascadedStyle, etc. In CSSOM View a new API document.scrollingElement is added to help authors avoid relying on which of html or body reflects the viewport for .scrollTop et. al.
Changes since the last Working Draft are listed in the CSSOM Changes section and CSSOM View Changes section.
As always, please send feedback to the (archived) public mailing list www-style@w3.org with the spec code ([cssom] or [cssom-view]) and your comment topic in the subject line. (Alternatively, you can email one of the editors and ask them to forward your comment.)
Minutes Sydney F2F 2016-02-01 Part II: Writing Modes, Line Grid, Overflow
Writing Modes
- Koji shared that there are now over 900 test cases for Writing Modes, allowing a good sense of what properties don’t have two interoperable implementations.
- A document listing the properties where yellow items don’t have enough implementations is available here.
- Everyone praised the document and the work done in creating the test cases.
- With this feedback, Koji would like to target PR at TPAC.
sideways-* had a lot of failures, but still a lot of support for its need, so it will stay in the spec for now and drop to level 4 if it becomes the last blocker for REC.- Some of the failures for unicode-bidi are in the details of the embed behavior, which Unicode and the Web Platform are moving away from anyway. Those failures will be identified as failures in UAX9 implementation, not Writing Modes failures.
- Several people received actions in order to continue progress on understanding these test results and getting more interoperable implementations.
- Resolved: Make TCY fullwidth->proportional transform optional (
text-combine-upright)
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Line Grid
- koji presented this proposal for a new line grid spec that is simplified in order to get more implementor interest.
- The proposal changes the snapping to grid behavior to an attempt to control heights.
- It also replaces line-grid with snap-height relying on css custom-properties to add more versatility.
- Though everyone understood the goal of getting something implemented, there was a lot of concern that the proposal is too fragile to be useful, especially for vertical-rhythm.
- Resolved: Make an ED for snap-sizing to work out details of proposal
- Resolved: Editors koji and fantasai
- Resolved: Add ideographic advance unit to Values and Units 4, come back to WG for approval after details worked out.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Overflow
- fantasai introduced her and TabAtkins’ work to trim down the overflow spec to just overflow-x and -y properties and to define ink and scrollable overflow.
- Resolved: Hanging punctuation causes ink overflow. [Note: This discussion has since been reopened. See this email]
- Resolved:
clip-path and masking do not affect scrollable bounds
- esprehn will look into the compat for
clip-path
- Resolved: Spec the current behavior for nested transforms and add a note that this could be improved
- Resolved: Drop border-box overflow concept (used for outlines); move it to UI 4 or Overflow 4
- Discussed whether scrollable area should include margins on various elements. More testcases were wanted, and also author feedback.
- A conversation about CSS containment and
overflow:clip will be added to Tuesday’s agenda.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Minutes Sydney F2F 2016-02-01 Part I: Web Compat Challenges, Tables, Colors, Transforms
Web Compat Challanges
- tantek presented several types of web compat challenges the working group faces.
- The first type is problems like 0 vs 0deg in CSS gradients, where there is a common dependency on the web that breaks spec compat. These are handled on a case-by-case basis, and considerations include:
- Some cases can be seen as an opportunity to make behavior more author-friendly, if it’s clear that this is author-expected behavior. (0 vs. 0deg seems to be such a case)
- The amount of pages that are affected should be taken into account in decision making – though there was a difference of opinion as to how much breakage is acceptable.
- The reason for the original decision should be reviewed before any changes are made.
- Implementers seem willing to make more severely-breaking changes if the benefit to the platform is significant.
- In regards to gradients, this was narrowed down to three options on which there was a straw poll:
- Don’t change gradients. Keep angle-parsing quirk to transforms
- Allow 0 ||
angle for gradients as well as transform functions, but not in properties in general
- Allow 0 to parse as
angle everywhere (including not in functional notations)
- Resolved: Angles can drop unit when value is 0
- The next type of challenge is when there are changes made for web compat purposes, but they’re not reported to the working group.
- Though business decisions needs to be made, there was a request for an e-mail to the working group informing them of a deviation, even if no effort is made to follow up, because this way at least the problem is being tracked.
- It was also suggested that the working group be more receptive to this kind of e-mail.
- The third challenge was how do we get member sites to stop depending on CSS vendor prefixes. The example for this issue was the bug browsers had to introduce to keep Gmail working.
- The discussion started by trying to figure out how to put more pressure on member organizations for problems like this, however with many member organizations being very large, their CSSWG representatives often don’t have power to make the changes.
- The conversation changed to how to give more agency to those in the working group to encourage change in their organizations.
- A step to move forward in some
-webkit- cases is to update at least the behavior to match the spec; this reduces the implementation burden for vendor-prefixed properties.
Full Minutes
Tables
- Resolved: Add gregwhitworth and franremy as editors of CSS Tables and copy into CSSWG ED repo
- There was a desire to have headers and footers repeated; the only disagreement was if it should be a ‘should’ or a ‘must’ level.
- Resolved:
contain applies to table cells
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Colors
- RGB color section outside of 0-1 is being addressed in a spec written by Chris and therefore doesn’t need to be explained in the CSS3 Colors.
- There was a desire to create a new way to specify colors and color profile and work will start to come up with language on a proposed approach. Once written the proposal will go into Colors 4.
- SteveZ will also get feedback from Adobe on how they expect wide gamut colors to be handled.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Transforms
- smfr gave a status update for the spec stating he’s still looking for implementor feedback on
preserve-3d and some assistance from someone who knows matrix math.
- Resolved: Republish Transforms
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Minutes Telecon 2016-03-09
- There’s work being done to get bigger spaces for the May F2F. Currently Wednesday has the worst space constraints.
- The TPAC meeting day request will be for the Monday/Tuesday slot.
- There are two different views about how the proposed ideographic character unit should behave; one describing what Firefox/Safari does and the other what Chrome does. The use cases with examples will be posted to the mailing list where discussion will continue. If needed, this will be added to the May F2F where a whiteboard can be used to explain examples.
- There was broad agreement around having
-webkit-user-select be an alias, but leaving it undefined as to how the alias works.
- fantasai gave a brief overview of the feedback that came from the New York grid workshop. She’ll be updating the spec and filing issues to the list.
Full Minutes
CSS Round Display Level 1 Updated
The CSS Working Group has published an updated Working Draft of CSS Round Display
This module describes CSS extensions to support a round display.
CSS Round Display has made progress on polar positioning since the FPWD.
Polar positioning becomes to be used in absolute positioning and several new features related to it are added.
Resolutions from the last CSSWG F2F are incorporated to the updated WD.
Changes since the last Working Draft are listed in the Changes section
There are open issues about the media query and polar positioning, but I’m sure those will be fixed on the next publication.
As always, please send feedback to the (archived) public mailing list www-style@w3.org with the spec code ([css-round-display]) and your comment topic in the subject line. (Alternatively, you can email one of the editors and ask them to forward your comment.)
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