Minutes Telecon 2019-09-04
- fantasai introduced the proposed process changes that will be presented formally at TPAC. There is a presentation, mailing list, and GitHub repo for this. The goal of this new process is to make it easier to keep CR and REC level specs up to date by reducing the steps needed for Director approval and changing patent review triggers.
- Resolved: Add navigation controls media query to MQ 5 (Issue #4187)
- The group was leaning against issue #4162 (Expose User Preference Media Queries as HTTP Client Hint or HTTP Header) because the general feeling is that is would not have a significant benefit and may be another vector for fingerprinting. These concerns will be added to GitHub and discussion will continue there.
- The main part of issue #4123 (It should be detectable whether an element ellipsized the text) can be closed, though there is a sub-issue on some APIs not reporting subpixels which will need to be addressed still.
- Resolved: No change re computed value of list-style-type (Issue #4210: Compute non-existent `list-style-type`
counter-style to `decimal`?)
- Resolved: Do not add table-cell/table-caption as display-outside values at this time (Issue #3940: Make `table-caption` and `table-cell`
display-outside values)
- Anyone unable to attend a call next week due to travel to Japan should say so early on so a determination can be made if there are enough people to get quorum next week or if the call should be canceled.
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2019-08-28
- The group continued discussing the proposal to add system-ui-serif, system-ui-monospaced, and system-ui-rounded (Issue #4107).
- The main focus was if there is a valid use case to support these new values instead of having Apple expose these as named fonts.
- The primary use case is for web apps where they want it to look as native as possible including using the same fonts as the system uses.
- There was disagreement in the group as to if this is really useful since not all systems have fonts that map to these three values.
- If this proposal is accepted, the group also discussed how to handle fallbacks. The two options are to fallback to a regular system font or to allow these values to be a part of a font family so authors can control the fallback.
- Discussion will continue on github to try and reach a consensus.
- Issue #3440 (When to/not to include preserved trailing spaces) has clearly defined proposals and PRs and anyone with an interest was requested to review them and weigh in on github.
- Having sizing available for aspect-ratio only boxes (Issue #4228: aspect-ratio-only boxes should be able to size to grid container) was a desired behavior. However there were concerns about this adding significant complexity to the layout algorithm for implementors, especially when there are nested grids or when subgrid is introduced. Comments on github are welcomed, especially from implementors of layout to see how large of a concern the algorithm changes present.
- The group’s direction was to not simplify values when aspect-ratio is number/number (Issue #3757: Support
number (and therefore calc) as a ratio). There wasn’t time to discuss other problematic cases (such as negative numbers and 0 in the denominator) so discussion will continue on github.
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2019-08-21
- Charter issue #219 needs to be resolved before the charter goes for approval since no one is happy with the current horizontal review text
- The implementation report has been updated. Implementors are requested to review to see if any of the changes are small bug fixes that can be addressed quickly and easily
- The unintentionally dropped text about sizing orthogonal flows (Issue #4220) was edited back into the spec for review.
- Resolved: Republish Writing Modes L3 with added/missing section for orthogonal writing modes provided no issues raised before Friday
- Resolved: Loading images are not invalid but treated similarly as explained in Image Values (Issue #1984: Specify fallback behavior when replaced or background image content not available)
- Resolved: Republish CR of CSS Images 3
- Resolved: background-color computes to the system background-color for all values but the alpha channel (Issue #4175: background-color in forced color modes needs more than a simple unset)
- TabAtkins briefly introduced the proposal for content-size so that people could review in advance of a longer discussion. Comments can also be added to github issue #4229
- myles introduced the proposal to add system-ui-serif, system-ui-monospaced, and system-ui-rounded in order to reference the new fonts introduced in iOS and macOS (Issue #4107)
- The fallbacks need to be clearly defined for these values
- Environmental variables should also be investigated as a possible solution to this use case
- There wasn’t time for a full conversation so this will be discussed on next week’s call
Full Meeting Minutes
Updated WD of CSS Lists Level 3
The CSS Working Group has published an updated Working Draft of CSS Lists Level 3. This module contains CSS features related to list markers and counters: styling them, positioning them, and manipulating their value.
This update contains a major clean-up of the “Automatic Numbering with Counters” section, including fixing various sync errors against CSS2.1. It should now be usable as a reference for implementation. Remaining work includes more precise definitions for marker layout and better integration with HTML list numbering, particularly reversed lists. See notes and open issues.
Please send feedback by either filing an issue in GitHub (preferable) or sending mail to the (archived) public mailing list www-style@w3.org with the spec code ([css-lists-3]) and your comment topic in the subject line. (Alternatively, you can email one of the editors and ask them to forward your comment.)
Minutes Telecon 2019-08-14
- Apple will look into dates and locations for the second F2F in 2020. If anyone has conflicts please add them to the wiki so they can be factored into date selection.
- Resolved: No limit. If past what the UA can render it’s clipped (Issue #4059: Limits on text-underline-offset to preserve semantic meaning)
- Resolved: No change to the current spec, use thickness (Issue #4138: Rename `text-decoration-thickness` to `text-decoration-weight`?)
- Myles will review issue #1984 (Specify fallback behavior when replaced or background image content not available) for next week’s call.
- Resolved: Update note saying this is not for implementation and will be dropped (Issue #4164: Should the values of image-orientation include the
angle variants?)
- After issue #1984 is resolved there will be a call for republication of CSS Images.
- It seems like browsers function interoperably in issue #4181 (Should automatic list-item increment adjust for ol[reversed]?) after the initial value is determined so the group was leaning toward UA magic to handle this.
- Resolved: Update to match 2.1 and make counter(name, none) invalid (Issue #4163: counter(name, none) should be invalid)
- Resolved: Republish Lists 3 with open issue on ol[reversed] and reversed counter.
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2019-08-07
- The new charter will go before W3C management next week. Anyone who would like to review should do so soon and open any issues on github.
- Resolved: Default behavior for all images to respect EXIF orientation (Issue #4165: Should CSS decorative images respect EXIF-orientation by default)
- The last few edits will go into the CSS Images spec next week with the plan of requesting publication next call
- Resolved: If multiple layers exist with text-shadows we draw them all (Issue #3932: Need for clarification on how ::selection text-shadows work)
- Resolved: Background on a highlight layer paints over shadows on layers below (Issue #3932)
- There was concern with the background overpainting leading to ugly results when the background is smaller then the text-shadows below it. If there is more information that this will be a real problem the group will revisit the resolution.
- The group agreed not to use ‘weight’ for issue #4138 (Rename `text-decoration-thickness` to `text-decoration-weight`?) however there wasn’t agreement between ‘thickness’ and ‘width’. There is one shipped implementation using ‘thickness’ however ‘width’ is more consistent with other CSS properties. An on call straw poll had a slight majority leaning no change/’thickness’ however before resolving the question will be asked again with more people on the call.
- fantasai will draft proposed text for issue #4134 (What happens to the wavy & double lines when `text-decoration-thickness` is applied?) that will give general guidelines that wavy and double lines must scale, but not giving specific sizes.
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2019-07-31
- Work is being done on the new charter. The document is available here and issues are being created in the charter github
- Resolved: Accept proposal [to change the initial value of ‘image-orientation’ to from-image] with an added note current solution is experimental and may change (Issue #3799: Consider changing initial value of ‘image-orientation’ to from-image)
- The proposed text for issue #1984 (Specify fallback behavior when replaced or background image content not available) will be edited to specifically call out the interstitial state between image swaps. Myles will have his team review the text and then the group will try and resolve on the next call.
- Resolved: Treat fragment only URLs as only elements, never images (Issue #383: Ambiguities in handling
url)
- Resolved: Change requirements from ‘should’ to ‘must’ (Issue #383)
- Resolved: Add the edits in the Ambiguous URLs section (Issue #383)
- After the group resolves on issue #1984 there will be a call to republish CSS Images
- Resolved: Don’t invent new
.type values for future rules; recommend usage of .constructor.name (Issue #4142: Can we start ignoring CSSRule.type?)
- Resolved: Align scrolling behavior of
visibility:hidden with visible descendants for overflow:scroll to behave the same as overflow:hidden (Issue #4113: Should a visibility:hidden overflow:scroll be scrollable?)
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2019-07-17
- Issue #3993 (
text-decoration-width claims to be a sub-property of text-decoration, but text-decoration disagrees) should be addressed once the text-decor-3 text is edited into L4
- Resolved: Always draw the underline even if it’s specified to be outside a limit we choose [meaning that even if we clamp the underline we won’t clip it] (Issue #4059)
- The discussion on if there should be a clamp on text-underline-offset (and by extension strikethrough and overline offset) continued without resolution. There were three options to pick from:
- No clamping
- Wide clamping
- Narrow clamping
- The argument for no clamping is that there shouldn’t be restrictions on the designs people produced.
- The argument for wide clamping is to avoid design restrictions but also limit performance and implementation difficulties.
- The argument for narrow clamping to avoid the underline being used to replace a strikethrough or overline. There’s a desire to hear from the a11y working group on their views about this concern.
- A straw poll was taken of the three options, but there was no clear winner between the three options.
- As the meeting drew to a close there was discussion to understanding more specifics about the limits intended when the group spoke of wide vs narrow clamping. The offered more specific details were:
- Limit is super-far, based on how big can you draw a box and things like that
- Medium-range, like 6-10 lines – enough for author to notice that there’s clamping, but not particularly restrictive
- Short-range, 1-2 line boxes, tries to keep the line with the next, not overlapping the adjacent lines
- Resolved: Tabs do not hang and you can break between for
white-space:break-spaces (Issue #3869: pre-wrap and tabs at the end of the line)
- Resolved: For
white-space:pre-wrap tabs hang like spaces do (Issue #3869)
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2019-07-10
- Resolved: For interpolation math functions are treated as atomic algebraic terms. You interpolate a calc expression that is the weighted sum of all the terms. (Issue #4082: How to interpolate min/max/clamp?)
- Resolved: Add section to CSS images defining computed value of an image type. This value has colors links and lengths all made absolute per usual computed value rules for those sub types and fix specs referring to images to make sure use correct language. (Issue #4042: Computed gradient colors)
- Resolved: SVG elements generating CSS layout boxes are included as part of resize observer and resize observer rectangles with a definition [for layout box] of `
svg:root, *:not(svg|*) > SVG, SVG|foreignObject > SVG { /* SVG elements with CSS layout box */} (Issue #4032: SVG Interaction)
- Discussion on issue #4059 (Limits on text-underline-offset to preserve semantic meaning):
- There continued to be concern about text-underline-offset being used in place of a strikethrough. This could lead to problems in styling with browsers that have not fully implemented the property as well as discrepancies between what is visually presented and what’s in the a11y tree.
- One possible way to prevent the strikethrough case is to ensure that authors have just as much style control on overlines and strikethroughs so that there is no incentive to misuse an underline.
- The other option presented was to clamp at a mid-point in the text so that it can’t get to the point where it looks like a strikethrough.
- The other argument for clamping was to ensure that the underline was visually presented in near proximity to the text it is underlining.
- This lead to an argument that clamping shouldn’t be done at all since box-shadows can end up anywhere in the document, not just in close proximity to the box, and therefore limiting the text-underline-offset will limit flexibility in design. Changing a value and not having it change on screen is often a bad authoring experience.
- Since there were several different opinions on where to clamp as well as some arguments that we shouldn’t be clamping at all, discussion will continue on github.
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Toronto F2F 2019-06-05 Part II: CSS Color 5; CSS Text 4; Backgrounds and Borders; Color Adjust; Media Queries
CSS Color 5
- Resolved: Put all the proposals into css-color-5, ChrisL and future Una as editors
- Resolved: Rename to put ‘color’ first, adjust-color -> color-mod
- Resolved: Add color-contrast without currentBackground option
- Question of “is computed value a color or a contrast-color”?
- Resolved: Add color-mix, try to align syntax with cross-fade
- Resolved: Put both color adjustment proposals into css-color-5, with keywords instead of underscores for Lea’s proposal
- Resolved: Add Lea Verou as editor of css-color-5
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
CSS Text 4
- Resolved: Add Florian as editor of css-text-4
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Backgrounds and Borders
- Resolved: Drop the less useful values [notch & scoop], and rename [bevel -> angle] as proposed in the issue (Issue #3457: Borders with cut corners)
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Color Adjust
- Resolved: Add a note to color-scheme to warn authors that dark and light modes are not necessarily black and white colors, and that if they are specifying any of their own colors they should specify enough colors to satisfy WCAG requirements (with a link) (Issue #3983: Clearly define what ‘light’ and ‘dark’ mean)
- There was heavy disagreement as to if the spec should also include a note that both foreground and background should be specified in pairs. Due to the lack of consensus the pairs section of text was not added to the spec.
- There was support for allowing prefers-color-scheme to expose subsets of color-scheme in the future. Without user agents expressing a desire to implement any additional color schemes it was decided that it was too early to add this to spec and instead it was important to avoid writing spec text that would prevent this in the future.
- Resolved: No change (Issue #3853: Future
custom-ident value sepia)
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Media Queries
- There was disagreement on the purpose of the no-preference value for prefers-color-scheme (Issue #3857: UA guidance on light vs no-preference).
- Part of the group argued that the default state of the web is no-preference where designers create their own look, but the other side said that a majority of the web is already light so the reality is the default would equal light already.
- Windows has three options for color schemes (light, dark, system default), but macOS only has two (light and dark)
- There was concern that three values would lead to designers feeling the need to create color schemes instead of two (rather than letting no-preference share with either light or dark).
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
![[Photo: group photo of the CSS working group in Lyon, France]](/Style/CSS/csswg-2010.jpg)
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