Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Teleconference

11 June 2021


Billie, Brent, Daniel, Estella, Howard, Jenn, Kevin, Laura, MarkPalmer, Shadi, Sharron, Shawn

Meeting minutes

Sharron: New participant Billie from SiteImprove.
… Let's do short introductions for Billie

Sharron: Billie we are thrilled to have you join the group. This is rewarding bit of work and we are happy you are hear to help.

<daniel-montalvo> https://deploy-preview-347--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/designer-modules/understanding-and-involving-users/

Curricula Understanding and Involving Users

Daniel: Some background... This curricula is mainly for instructors to use to build courses or training.
… Have completed Foundation Modules and Developer Modules already. Now looking at Designer Modules.
… Looks at the impact of involving people with disabilities in the designing process.
… Most of the content is about what should happen in the design phase with the design team, but it also can have impact and be used in other roles.
… Question is, Where do you think this module and it's content best fits in?

Kevin: Don't think it should be in the designer modules. The outputs and observations of disabled users looking at designs is wider. Needs to be in other areas as well.

<laura> +1

Kevin: I feel it would be better off in the Foundation area

<JennC> +1 in Foundation.

Laura: I agree with what Kevin said.

Estella: I tend to agree with Kevin. The module was called "Inclusive Design" at first, maybe now it is less aligned to a designer's perspective. Maybe the issue is really with the title of the module instead of the content of the module.

<shadi> +1 to Estella!

Daniel: The module started with a wider scope and was narrowed through the creation of it.

Kevin: Because it is talking about people with disabilities in the user research process it goes wider than just on the design team. The positioning gives it a small feeling of being out of place.

<JennC> +1 to Laura's comment - involving users informs design before anything is designed, and can be instructions directly for developers on how their application fails from a functional perspective.

Laura: At LOC we have great success when we pair people with disabilities and developers we have great success of getting developers to understand the issue and wanting to work on accessible development.

<shawn> me waiting quietly for invitation to comment :-)

<kevin> ack

Daniel: What I am hearing is that it is not that this is out of scope for designers, but that it needs to be introduced earlier and still mentioned in designer modules. With more emphasis in other modules.
… Discussed in the task force that we didn't want to completely remove this from the designer modules so that it is conveyed to designers the importance of this type of feedback for designers.
… Okay to put this content in the Foundation modules, but also have some information about including people with disabilities in the designer modules?
… The whole piece may not fit in Foundational, but could transfer most of what is here into the foundation modules and keep some of it here.

Sharron: What does the group think?

Estella: Question to Laura, Do you also work with designers at LOC? This content is specifically writen for designers.

<daniel-montalvo> https://www.w3.org/WAI/curricula/foundation-modules/people-and-digital-technology/

Laura: Our teams section is called Design and Development. The Designer group is Researchers and Designers. We have people with disabilities work with this group when needed, but mostly work in a QA capacity. They would work with both the Design team and the Development team as needed.

Daniel: Based on this input we need to discuss more in the task force.

<shawn> big companies have separate user researchers that don't even do specific design. some tiny orgs have one or two people who do all of it.

<shawn> "content design" is UCD (process for including users) for writing -- and encourages whole team to work together with users.

<shawn> +1 to Ideally developers also get a chance to learn directly from people with disabilities

<shawn> instructors will customize based on their situation.

<shawn> scope of this info... (not need specific for different roles?)

Kevin: I disagree, I don't think this all has to do with designers.

Shawn: I agree with Kevin and Laura.
… Organizations have different structure, some with big teams that split this out, others with small teams where the same people do it all.
… Also a +1 that developers get a chance to work with people with disabilities, which is important.
… Strongly believe that this should be at a higher level. Modules could reference back to this in the Foundation Module. Don't go into detail in the others.

<Sharron> +1 to making the module broader at a higher level to apply to all roles

Daniel: So you are more in favor of not having this information in the other modules [outside of foundational]?

Shawn: Yes

Kevin: There are a lot of companies that don't have User Research.

<Sharron> s/@@/user research departments

Kevin: Most companies have their User Research team that do this but many of the smaller complanies will have other roles that will have to do this because they don't have the resources to break out all the roles.
… I agree with Shawn that it should not be in the designer module, but put in the foundation module.
… Feel we need to be a little more clear about the messaging so that we are not too perscriptive about the process as well.

Daniel: We have worked on trying to not be too perscriptive. We will pay more attention to that.

Kevin: Just a few comments that veer into that perscriptive language and that we should be careful.

<Donna> My thoughts have now been said - please remove from Q. TY

Jenn: Agree with what is being said. The language used about involving users makes it feel like it should be in the foundation module as it helps to define the work of all roles (designer, developer, testers, etc.) The aims of the section seem to be foundational.

Daniel: Worried that there may be too much in the foundational modules, we would need to be careful that it does not get burried there and not seen as clearly.

<JennC> +1 for Shawn and Kevin's suggestion of having a link in each of the role-based modules to remind people to complete the "Involving Users" module

Sharron: Again, if it is in foundation module then could refer to it in other modules as well.

Shadi: Hearing some different perspectives here. One is Understanding Users, another is Motivation and Empathy, and also about Planning Involvement. Trying to figure out what points are we exactly speaking to. Maybe we could split this up and put it in appropriate places.
… There is UX Research, user research task. I think it would be good to put how to use people with disabilities there too. More about how to use people in that research.
… Also generally at the start of all the modules, remind the roles about working with people with disabilities.
… Is there a better way to break this up and putting it in the appropriate places where it fits in nicely.

Shawn: I thnik this gets to how much detail we get into with this. I think it should be more high level. Therefor shuold maybe only be in foundation. But this depends on the scope of the detail.

Donna: Sounds like we have two different pieces of content: Using people vs. strategy component. I am unclear which direction the team is trying to go with it.

Daniel: We identified this to be the place where the general concept of including people with disabilities. Our intention was to try and cover the specifics here for designers and user researchers.

<daniel-montalvo> https://www.w3.org/WAI/curricula/foundation-modules/what-is-web-accessibility/

Daniel: But not getting into the details is what it sounds like the group is wanting. I see that there probably needs to be two level in the approach of adding this content.

<Donna> Hit me up! I'm happy to lean in.

Laura: I agree it should be in foundations, and maybe when you are in specific sections of the resource you can point out more from the perspective of the designer or the developer in those places.

Daniel: In the developer modules we have some examples that point back to How People with Disabilities Use the Web as a reference. Is that what you are thinking Laura?

<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to say that the learning outcomes are at the right level

Laura: Yes

<shawn> +1 to keep scope at about what we have in https://www.w3.org/WAI/planning/involving-users/ and https://www.w3.org/WAI/test-evaluate/involving-users/

Kevin: I think the content and learning outcomes at this level are good. I think the user research strategy is a bigger topic that we should not get into here. The learnign outcomes here are good. From initial read, the topics are good. I would not throw out too much. Wouldn't add too much more detail because it would get into to much strategy and methodology.

<shawn> +1 to generallu learning outcomes are good

Kevin: If you reduce the data, it may be less useful. So think more about the positioning rather than the addition or reduction of content.

Shadi: Is the proposal to keep the scope of this content the same but move it into the foundation module?

Some yeses from the team.

Shawn: Need to think a little more about the level of details [scope].

Daniel: I have two more points abou the level of detail. Do we want to move on to the level of detail of this content now?

Shawn: I think the general idea being discussed is more where the content goes.

Daniel: Proposal: Start moving this content into the foundation module. Then make references back to this content in the other modules [developers, designers, etc]. Do people agree?

<kevin> +1

<Donna> +1

<Sharron> +1

<MarkPalmer> +1

<Howard> +1

<laura> +1

<eoncins> +1


<shawn> +1

<JennC> +1

Explaining different types of feedback

<shawn> [ Shawn thinks most on this call have not read all of this draft (including herself), and therefore, might not be able to address the other questions well ]

Daniel: Related to how much detail we want in the content around including people with disabilities in both the user research and in the testing. What should the level of detail be?

<laura> -1

Sharron: Have people read and feel prepared to discuss "level of detail".

Shadi: Daniel, given that we just proposed that we move this to the Foundation Modules, do you still feel that we should discuss the level of detail at this point or shuold the move happen first?

Daniel: Yes, I agree maybe we hold those issues.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask

Sharron: We will table level of detail until after it is moved.

<eoncins> +1 to Shawn

Shawn: At first read this seems to go into more detail than other areas. Sometimes in other areas we have seen issues when too much detail is provided. Need ot look at the purpose of the resource and be sure the level of detail matches.
… Depending on that goal, could possibly cut down some more of the detail.

<Donna> Quantifiable value will not only help that persona but that of their managers as well so that they can advocate for "baking it in"

Kevin: Agree that we need to understand the purpose here to know what should be included in the content. Need to be clear of the outcome. Can't teach people how to be user researchers, etc. Need to be careful that we don't stray into that too much.

<JennC> +1 to Kevin

Estella: Agree with both Shawn and Kevin... and Daniel. Need to teach WHY it is important but not teach HOW to do it.

Sharron: Daniel, gives you a lot to take back to the task force and work on. Do you feel the topic is ready to close?

Daniel: Yes

Sharron: Would incourage you to bring Donna into the group.

Daniel will follow up with Donna off-line with details of the task force schedule and work.

Sharron: This has been a great undertaking and very good, solid work.

Daniel: Okay, I will take back to the task force and rework this content into foundations and other references.

Scribe rotation

Sharron: Co-chairs will be rotating chairing so we will need to implement a rotation of scribing the meetings. I am happy to scribe when I am not chairing.

<shadi> +1 on rotation list usually works best in my experience too

<eoncins> +1 on rotation list

Shawn: May be better to have a rotation arranged ahead of time so that people can be prepared to scribe.

<Donna> LOL is there spell check? Just 1x a year it will be awful LOL

Sharron: We will implement a rotation list that will be on the wiki and people can be prepared to scribe. Most likely people will scribe only a couple times a year.
… We will add it to the meeting wiki.

Work for this Week

Sharron: Added more dates to the availability survey. Please go back in and add your availability when you can.

Sharron: Please keep in mind the outreach on the translations. There have been a great amount of new translations that have been published recently. Please continue to do outreach and let people know.

Shawn: We have updated more than 70 documents of late. We now have around 36 -37 languages represented. How can we be doing better outreach about this, and what is the best way to record it?

<Donna> Do we have a marketing plan? Why don't we write an article for Smashing then?

Sharron: Again, this translation work is outstanding. The people who know about it know how valuable all the resources are, but how do we get to those who don't know about it.

<JennC> I regularly share WAI resources with teams in Canada and the US, but will definitely share the translations notification with our global offices (UK, Nordics, EU, Australia, NZ, Japan). Thank you!!

<Donna> Do we have a buffer account?

<Donna> Are we allowed to tag people?

Shawn: Would be greatful for anyone to help with the social media strategies.

<Donna> Shawn - do you want to meet offline to see if I can help organize something that's easier for people to contribute to?

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask how I can support your outreach

Sharron: When you do some sort of outreach please add it to the wiki so that people are aware and can propogate it wider. Let's get better at recording what we are doing.

<Donna> AMAZING!

Kevin: We are the Education and Outreach Working Group but we don't have one structured project around outreach.

<laura> +1 to Kevin

Kevin: I am not an expert in this area so cannot lead, but we probably should have a solid project plan around outreach. Include goals and aims and measures.

<Donna> hiding

Shawn: We have discussed it in face to face meetings, but the enthusiasm goes away when we all get back to work and get involved in other projects.

Sharron: Maybe need a small task force for the outreach so that a group can continue to stay on top if this.

<Howard> +1 to having more structured/planned outreach

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say started, no one stepped up

<Donna> Shawn - send me an outline of what was done (sorry still ramping up). I know editors at A List Apart - I'd love to make connections w Smashing

<shawn> Brent: we recuit people with ax expertise - let's recruit thatr skillset

<shawn> [ Donna I have connections, too. The issue is the time to write and revise articels.]

<shawn> .

Donna: Happy to help start writing articles.

<shawn> some stuff https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Outreach

Sharron: I will talk to our marketing person to find out if they have contacts that we can reach out to for outreach (no pun intended).

Kevin: I might have someone that would be interested in this.

<Donna> Ahh sorry I need to drop = Please reach out and have a beautiful week!

Kevin: I think is about taking a structured approach to outreach. Someone that can think about an entire communication plan / outreach plan.

+1 to Kevin

Estella: Are we looking inclusively at only social media outreach.

Sharron: No, all types of marketing and outreach.

Estella: Academic articles - where professors could share and teach students what is avaialable.

Shawn: Agree we need a good overarching [communications/marketing] plan with our goals and strategy outlined.

<JennC> +1 to having Academic articles and awareness of the WAI curricula being available to institutions.

Sharron: We can see if Kevin's contact is interested or any other people that we can reach out to.


Sharron: Any other topics?
… Thanks for attending Billie. There is a lot to do so jump in at any time.
… Thank you all, we will close the meeting.

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 136 (Thu May 27 13:50:24 2021 UTC).


Succeeded: s/@@/User Research

Failed: s/@@/user research departments

Maybe present: Donna