12:32:18 RRSAgent has joined #eo 12:32:18 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/11-eo-irc 12:32:20 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:32:20 Zakim has joined #eo 12:32:22 Meeting: Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Teleconference 12:32:22 Date: 11 June 2021 12:32:49 MarkPalmer has joined #eo 12:32:53 present: Sharron, Shawn, Brent, Laura, Shadi, Daniel, Kevin, Billie 12:32:54 laura has joined #eo 12:32:56 present+ 12:33:11 present+ 12:33:31 present+ Jenn 12:33:36 present+ Estella 12:33:58 eoncins has joined #eo 12:34:07 zakim, pick a victim 12:34:07 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Laura 12:34:09 JennC has joined #eo 12:34:21 Scribe: Brent 12:34:22 present+ Laura 12:34:36 present+ Daniel 12:35:02 present+ Howard 12:35:08 Sharron: New participant Billie from SiteImprove. 12:36:08 ... Let's do short introductions for Billie 12:37:24 zakim, who is on the phone? 12:37:24 Present: Sharron, Shawn, Brent, Laura, Shadi, Daniel, Kevin, Billie, MarkPalmer, Jenn, Estella, Howard 12:43:10 Howard has joined #eo 12:43:15 present+ Howard 12:43:48 Sharron: Billie we are thrilled to have you join the group. This is rewarding bit of work and we are happy you are hear to help. 12:44:02 kevin has joined #eo 12:44:14 https://deploy-preview-347--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/designer-modules/understanding-and-involving-users/ 12:44:23 Topic: Curricula Understanding and Involving Users 12:45:14 Daniel: Some background... This curricula is mainly for instructors to use to build courses or training. 12:45:49 ... Have completed Foundation Modules and Developer Modules already. Now looking at Designer Modules. 12:46:31 ... Looks at the impact of involving people with disabilities in the designing process. 12:47:22 ... Most of the content is about what should happen in the design phase with the design team, but it also can have impact and be used in other roles. 12:47:36 q+ 12:47:52 ... Question is, Where do you think this module and it's content best fits in? 12:49:01 Kevin: Don't think it should be in the designer modules. The outputs and observations of disabled users looking at designs is wider. Needs to be in other areas as well. 12:49:12 +1 12:49:36 ... I feel it would be better off in the Foundation area 12:49:44 +1 in Foundation. 12:49:52 Laura: I agree with what Kevin said. 12:49:55 q+ 12:51:16 Sharron has joined #eo 12:51:27 Estella: I tend to agree with Kevin. The module was called "Inclusive Design" at first, maybe now it is less aligned to a designer's perspective. Maybe the issue is really with the title of the module instead of the content of the module. 12:51:28 +1 to Estella! 12:52:20 Daniel: The module started with a wider scope and was narrowed through the creation of it. 12:53:29 Donna has joined #eo 12:53:35 Kevin: Because it is talking about people with disabilities in the user research process it goes wider than just on the design team. The positioning gives it a small feeling of being out of place. 12:54:27 +1 to Laura's comment - involving users informs design before anything is designed, and can be instructions directly for developers on how their application fails from a functional perspective. 12:54:40 Laura: At LOC we have great success when we pair people with disabilities and developers we have great success of getting developers to understand the issue and wanting to work on accessible development. 12:54:52 Billie_ has joined #eo 12:55:18 me waiting quietly for invitation to comment :-) 12:55:27 q? 12:55:36 ack 12:55:39 ack kevin 12:55:47 Daniel: What I am hearing is that it is not that this is out of scope for designers, but that it needs to be introduced earlier and still mentioned in designer modules. With more emphasis in other modules. 12:56:05 q+ 12:56:54 ... Discussed in the task force that we didn't want to completely remove this from the designer modules so that it is conveyed to designers the importance of this type of feedback for designers. 12:57:19 q+ 12:57:40 ... Okay to put this content in the Foundation modules, but also have some information about including people with disabilities in the designer modules? 12:58:28 Q? 12:58:37 q+ 12:58:38 ... The whole piece may not fit in Foundational, but could transfer most of what is here into the foundation modules and keep some of it here. 12:58:48 Sharron: What does the group think? 12:59:56 Estella: Question to Laura, Do you also work with designers at LOC? This content is specifically writen for designers. 13:00:02 https://www.w3.org/WAI/curricula/foundation-modules/people-and-digital-technology/ 13:00:43 q+ 13:00:59 q+ 13:01:24 ack e 13:01:26 Laura: Our teams section is called Design and Development. The Designer group is Researchers and Designers. We have people with disabilities work with this group when needed, but mostly work in a QA capacity. They would work with both the Design team and the Development team as needed. 13:02:26 Daniel: Based on this input we need to discuss more in the task force. 13:02:28 big companies have separate user researchers that don't even do specific design. some tiny orgs have one or two people who do all of it. 13:02:28 "content design" is UCD (process for including users) for writing -- and encourages whole team to work together with users. 13:02:28 +1 to Ideally developers also get a chance to learn directly from people with disabilities 13:02:29 instructors will customize based on their situation. 13:02:29 scope of this info... (not need specific for different roles?) 13:02:41 Kevin: I disagree, I don't think this all has to do with designers. 13:02:51 Shawn: I agree with Kevin and Laura. 13:03:32 ... Organizations have different structure, some with big teams that split this out, others with small teams where the same people do it all. 13:03:59 q? 13:04:04 ack shawn 13:04:06 ... Also a +1 that developers get a chance to work with people with disabilities, which is important. 13:05:00 ... Strongly believe that this should be at a higher level. Modules could reference back to this in the Foundation Module. Don't go into detail in the others. 13:05:35 +1 to making the module broader at a higher level to apply to all roles 13:05:38 Daniel: So you are more in favor of not having this information in the other modules [outside of foundational]? 13:05:42 Shawn: Yes 13:06:34 ack kevin 13:06:47 Kevin: There are a lot of companies that don't have @@. 13:06:59 q? 13:07:02 s/@@/User Research 13:07:15 s/@@/user research departments 13:07:45 q+ Donna 13:08:00 Kevin: Most companies have their User Research team that do this but many of the smaller complanies will have other roles that will have to do this because they don't have the resources to break out all the roles. 13:08:24 q- shawn 13:08:29 ... I agree with Shawn that it should not be in the designer module, but put in the foundation module. 13:09:20 ... Feel we need to be a little more clear about the messaging so that we are not too perscriptive about the process as well. 13:10:02 Daniel: We have worked on trying to not be too perscriptive. We will pay more attention to that. 13:10:32 Kevin: Just a few comments that veer into that perscriptive language and that we should be careful. 13:10:51 ack JennC 13:11:54 My thoughts have now been said - please remove from Q. TY 13:12:08 Jenn: Agree with what is being said. The language used about involving users makes it feel like it should be in the foundation module as it helps to define the work of all roles (designer, developer, testers, etc.) The aims of the section seem to be foundational. 13:12:54 Daniel: Worried that there may be too much in the foundational modules, we would need to be careful that it does not get burried there and not seen as clearly. 13:12:59 ack shadi 13:13:01 +1 for Shawn and Kevin's suggestion of having a link in each of the role-based modules to remind people to complete the "Involving Users" module 13:13:17 Sharron: Again, if it is in foundation module then could refer to it in other modules as well. 13:14:37 Shadi: Hearing some different perspectives here. One is Understanding Users, another is Motivation and Empathy, and also about Planning Involvement. Trying to figure out what points are we exactly speaking to. Maybe we could split this up and put it in appropriate places. 13:15:26 q+ to reply to Shadi's point (scope) 13:15:35 ... There is UX Research, user research task. I think it would be good to put how to use people with disabilities there too. More about how to use people in that research. 13:15:50 q+ to reply to Shadi's point (scope, process, etc...) 13:16:25 ... Also generally at the start of all the modules, remind the roles about working with people with disabilities. 13:16:40 q+ 13:16:55 ... Is there a better way to break this up and putting it in the appropriate places where it fits in nicely. 13:17:44 ack Donna 13:17:47 Shawn: I thnik this gets to how much detail we get into with this. I think it should be more high level. Therefor shuold maybe only be in foundation. But this depends on the scope of the detail. 13:18:44 Donna: Sounds like we have two different pieces of content: Using people vs. strategy component. I am unclear which direction the team is trying to go with it. 13:19:57 Daniel: We identified this to be the place where the general concept of including people with disabilities. Our intention was to try and cover the specifics here for designers and user researchers. 13:20:07 q? 13:20:12 q- shawn 13:20:13 https://www.w3.org/WAI/curricula/foundation-modules/what-is-web-accessibility/ 13:20:50 ... But not getting into the details is what it sounds like the group is wanting. I see that there probably needs to be two level in the approach of adding this content. 13:20:57 Hit me up! I'm happy to lean in. 13:20:57 ack laura 13:21:14 q+ to say that the learning outcomes are at the right level 13:21:45 Laura: I agree it should be in foundations, and maybe when you are in specific sections of the resource you can point out more from the perspective of the designer or the developer in those places. 13:22:33 Daniel: In the developer modules we have some examples that point back to How People with Disabilities Use the Web as a reference. Is that what you are thinking Laura? 13:22:38 ack kevin 13:22:38 kevin, you wanted to say that the learning outcomes are at the right level 13:22:38 Laura: Yes 13:24:12 +1 to keep scope at about what we have in https://www.w3.org/WAI/planning/involving-users/ and https://www.w3.org/WAI/test-evaluate/involving-users/ 13:24:19 Kevin: I think the content and learning outcomes at this level are good. I think the user research strategy is a bigger topic that we should not get into here. The learnign outcomes here are good. From initial read, the topics are good. I would not throw out too much. Wouldn't add too much more detail because it would get into to much strategy and methodology. 13:24:35 q+ 13:24:44 +1 to generallu learning outcomes are good 13:24:54 ack Shadi 13:24:55 ... If you reduce the data, it may be less useful. So think more about the positioning rather than the addition or reduction of content. 13:25:09 q+ 13:25:24 Shadi: Is the proposal to keep the scope of this content the same but move it into the foundation module? 13:25:27 ack shawn 13:25:36 Some yeses from the team. 13:26:02 Shawn: Need to think a little more about the level of details [scope]. 13:27:14 Daniel: I have two more points abou the level of detail. Do we want to move on to the level of detail of this content now? 13:27:33 Shawn: I think the general idea being discussed is more where the content goes. 13:28:38 Daniel: Proposal: Start moving this content into the foundation module. Then make references back to this content in the other modules [developers, designers, etc]. Do people agree? 13:28:45 +1 13:28:53 +1 13:28:53 +1 13:28:54 +1 13:28:56 +1 13:28:56 +1 13:28:59 +1 13:28:59 +1 13:28:59 +1 13:29:01 +1 13:29:39 Topic: Explaining different types of feedback 13:29:47 [ Shawn thinks most on this call have not read all of this draft (including herself), and therefore, might not be able to address the other questions well ] 13:30:52 q+ 13:31:07 Daniel: Related to how much detail we want in the content around including people with disabilities in both the user research and in the testing. What should the level of detail be? 13:31:38 -1 13:31:40 Sharron: Have people read and feel prepared to discuss "level of detail". 13:32:09 q+ to ask 13:32:17 ack shadi 13:33:19 Shadi: Daniel, given that we just proposed that we move this to the Foundation Modules, do you still feel that we should discuss the level of detail at this point or shuold the move happen first? 13:33:28 q+ 13:33:33 Daniel: Yes, I agree maybe we hold those issues. 13:33:40 ack shawn 13:33:40 shawn, you wanted to ask 13:33:51 Sharron: We will table level of detail until after it is moved. 13:34:29 +1 to Shawn 13:34:56 Shawn: At first read this seems to go into more detail than other areas. Sometimes in other areas we have seen issues when too much detail is provided. Need ot look at the purpose of the resource and be sure the level of detail matches. 13:35:19 ack kevin 13:35:33 q+ 13:35:34 ... Depending on that goal, could possibly cut down some more of the detail. 13:36:33 Quantifiable value will not only help that persona but that of their managers as well so that they can advocate for "baking it in" 13:36:34 ack eoncins 13:36:37 Kevin: Agree that we need to understand the purpose here to know what should be included in the content. Need to be clear of the outcome. Can't teach people how to be user researchers, etc. Need to be careful that we don't stray into that too much. 13:36:40 +1 to Kevin 13:37:17 Estella: Agree with both Shawn and Kevin... and Daniel. Need to teach WHY it is important but not teach HOW to do it. 13:37:52 Sharron: Daniel, gives you a lot to take back to the task force and work on. Do you feel the topic is ready to close? 13:37:56 Daniel: Yes 13:38:12 Sharron: Would incourage you to bring Donna into the group. 13:38:40 Daniel will follow up with Donna off-line with details of the task force schedule and work. 13:39:01 Sharron: This has been a great undertaking and very good, solid work. 13:39:33 Daniel: Okay, I will take back to the task force and rework this content into foundations and other references. 13:39:53 Topic: Scribe rotation 13:40:50 Sharron: Co-chairs will be rotating chairing so we will need to implement a rotation of scribing the meetings. I am happy to scribe when I am not chairing. 13:41:12 +1 on rotation list usually works best in my experience too 13:41:33 +1 on rotation list 13:41:34 Shawn: May be better to have a rotation arranged ahead of time so that people can be prepared to scribe. 13:42:30 LOL is there spell check? Just 1x a year it will be awful LOL 13:42:34 Sharron: We will implement a rotation list that will be on the wiki and people can be prepared to scribe. Most likely people will scribe only a couple times a year. 13:42:43 ... We will add it to the meeting wiki. 13:42:51 Topic: Work for this Week 13:43:18 Sharron: Added more dates to the availability survey. Please go back in and add your availability when you can. 13:43:47 q+ to ask how I can support your outreach 13:44:15 Sharron: Please keep in mind the outreach on the translations. There have been a great amount of new translations that have been published recently. Please continue to do outreach and let people know. 13:45:09 Shawn: We have updated more than 70 documents of late. We now have around 36 -37 languages represented. How can we be doing better outreach about this, and what is the best way to record it? 13:45:35 Do we have a marketing plan? Why don't we write an article for Smashing then? 13:46:33 Sharron: Again, this translation work is outstanding. The people who know about it know how valuable all the resources are, but how do we get to those who don't know about it. 13:47:06 I regularly share WAI resources with teams in Canada and the US, but will definitely share the translations notification with our global offices (UK, Nordics, EU, Australia, NZ, Japan). Thank you!! 13:47:09 Do we have a buffer account? 13:47:14 q+ 13:47:18 Are we allowed to tag people? 13:47:45 Shawn: Would be greatful for anyone to help with the social media strategies. 13:48:10 Shawn - do you want to meet offline to see if I can help organize something that's easier for people to contribute to? 13:48:16 ack shawn 13:48:16 shawn, you wanted to ask how I can support your outreach 13:48:33 Sharron: When you do some sort of outreach please add it to the wiki so that people are aware and can propogate it wider. Let's get better at recording what we are doing. 13:48:53 AMAZING! 13:49:38 ack kevin 13:50:15 Kevin: We are the Education and Outreach Working Group but we don't have one structured project around outreach. 13:50:35 q+ to say started, no one stepped up 13:51:05 +1 to Kevin 13:51:11 ... I am not an expert in this area so cannot lead, but we probably should have a solid project plan around outreach. Include goals and aims and measures. 13:52:11 hiding 13:52:21 Shawn: We have discussed it in face to face meetings, but the enthusiasm goes away when we all get back to work and get involved in other projects. 13:53:09 Sharron: Maybe need a small task force for the outreach so that a group can continue to stay on top if this. 13:53:11 Q+ 13:53:24 +1 to having more structured/planned outreach 13:53:29 ack shawn 13:53:29 shawn, you wanted to say started, no one stepped up 13:53:37 ack brent 13:53:59 Shawn - send me an outline of what was done (sorry still ramping up). I know editors at A List Apart - I'd love to make connections w Smashing 13:54:19 Brent: we recuit people with ax expertise - let's recruit thatr skillset 13:54:46 [ Donna I have connections, too. The issue is the time to write and revise articels.] 13:55:02 . 13:55:51 q+ 13:55:53 Donna: Happy to help start writing articles. 13:56:24 some stuff https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Outreach 13:56:40 Sharron: I will talk to our marketing person to find out if they have contacts that we can reach out to for outreach (no pun intended). 13:57:13 Kevin: I might have someone that would be interested in this. 13:57:15 Ahh sorry I need to drop = Please reach out and have a beautiful week! 13:58:31 Kevin: I think is about taking a structured approach to outreach. Someone that can think about an entire communication plan / outreach plan. 13:58:36 +1 to Kevin 13:59:24 Estella: Are we looking inclusively at only social media outreach. 13:59:39 Sharron: No, all types of marketing and outreach. 14:00:09 Estella: Academic articles - where professors could share and teach students what is avaialable. 14:00:54 Shawn: Agree we need a good overarching [communications/marketing] plan with our goals and strategy outlined. 14:00:56 +1 to having Academic articles and awareness of the WAI curricula being available to institutions. 14:01:52 Sharron: We can see if Kevin's contact is interested or any other people that we can reach out to. 14:02:05 Topic: Closing 14:02:12 Sharron: Any other topics? 14:02:33 ... Thanks for attending Billie. There is a lot to do so jump in at any time. 14:02:56 ... Thank you all, we will close the meeting. 14:03:10 trackbot, end meeting 14:03:10 Zakim, list attendees 14:03:10 As of this point the attendees have been Sharron, Shawn, Brent, Laura, Shadi, Daniel, Kevin, Billie, MarkPalmer, Jenn, Estella, Howard 14:03:18 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 14:03:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/11-eo-minutes.html trackbot 14:03:19 RRSAgent, bye 14:03:19 I see no action items