- Minutes-

Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

23 Oct 2018


Beginning with a debrief from Monday, Vicki asked Shadi for more detail about deliverables under WAI-Guide. He will confer with her offline. Eric next set up expectations for the UI Components list, what the issues are, and how more work on that might occur as part of WAI-Guide. Discussion led to:
RESOLUTION: EOWG is committed to pursuing the UI Components list. The project plan for the completion and maintenance of the database will be revisited in January.

EO next welcomed Jeanne Spellman, Shawn Lauriat and others from the Silver TF to learn more about their progress. EO was encouraged and excited and pledged to provide support when appropriate especially for user testing and plain language. The Understanding Docs sub-group met with AG and agreed on process to move forward with the goal of completion by the end of March. next was a discussion of Easy Checks, a high priority for revision by several EO contributors, Including co-chair Sharron Rush. A proposal was made to convene a small group to do the work since staff has no current bandwidth. It will be taken up by the planning team. Translations was the next topic with support from the Internationalization WG. There was detailed consideration of how to proceed, how to identify when resources are ready for translation, and how to stay in sync and close collaboration with Internationalization. The EOWG outreach discussion considered social media campaigns, how to focus efforts, the outreach potential of stickers, pins, and buttons and more general planning ending with
RESOLUTION: EOWG will have outreach on the survey and as a topic at every meeting for at least 5 minutes.

Thanks to all who traveled to Lyon, all who participated from afar, and all who are following along to contribute in the weeks to come - great to be together!


Sharron, Brent Chris, Stephan, Vicki, Sylvie, KrisAnne, Amanda, Vivienne, SteveLee, Shawn Henry, JeanneSpellman, AshHarris, Shawn Lauriat, Nayef Alawahdi (guest), Muhammad Saleem (guest), david_clarke, Richard, addison, Bert
Stephane, Sharron, Shawn


Debrief from Monday

Vicki: Can we have more detail on WAI guide project, please? Maybe the language of deliverables from the grant application?

[ Sharron will get details from shadi ]

Amanda: I have emailed with them and WebKeyIT has permission to write a business case about the City of Coburn but to deidicate the reosurces would do it from our perspective.

Sharron: Yes, sounds very good. However, we need to maintain vendor neutrality in the main issued business case. On the wiki we've provided lessvendor neutral sace for people to brag about tehir accomplishments. There are several business cases there, it could be the best place for a narrative that emphasizes vendor activity. The current business case is meant to be a live document so we can always add materials as they are polished.

UI components

Brent: We need to figure out where we are currently, what are the past issues, is there an opportunity for moving forward?

Sharron: This is not a priority item at this time. But we had expectations of creating a useful resource, it has been tables, and we wanted to take a look at whether there is any possibility to make it more useful as people are looking to tutorials for this type of content - code snippets and widgets that can be repourposed and re-used.

Eric: We found that we are unable to always verify if things are accessible per se because we're vendor-neutral etc., so this is why so far the project is still a draft.

[ Eric demonstrating the prototypes ]

Chris: Who validates the submissions?

<Sharron> https://www.w3.org/blog/wai-components-gallery/

Eric: We would have to rely on someone to check it. We may have a voting system of some kind.Had considered a high profile advisory groups to vet and comment.

Sharron: We're considering creating a kind of "trusted board" to validate the components.
... People with a reputation who would be willing to help.

Eric: We still need to define several aspects like level of vetting, quality (expectedly we want it to be very high).
... We propose to manage expectations: submitting a component would go with a full rationale (code was validated etc.).

Eric: If you don't know what you're looking for, you don't know where you can find it. So components can help people find out about accessibility best practices.

Chris: Do we want to spend time on this or on other projects?

<Chris> http://a11y-style-guide.com/style-guide/

<Chris> https://inclusive-components.design/#components

[ Chris pointing to a11y styleguide and Heydon Pickering's Inclusive components ]

Eric: The Tools list is a good example, resource-wise, of what we intended. As people submit and we can keep track of submissions on Github.
... Question is: if we have a vetting process we have to integrate it somehow.
... The WAI Guide funding can help putting up the Components gallery.
... We can have the same approach for Components and Tools.
... A good way to avoid overhead with submissions is open the process before making it public to proof our process (evaluation, vetting).
... This will not be a library of components, this will be a list of vetted pointers.

<Chris> another one: http://ebay.github.io/mindpatterns/

Eric: The vendor will have to say how accessible it is, so we want the vendor to describe their component and everything about it.

KrisAnne: Sometimes we see people who think they're doing the right thing but often it's not. Agencies and vendors say it is accessible/conformant/compliant but it's not.
... Vetting system has to be very tight but other people are probably better at coding than we are.

Eric: We can require submissions to also point to accessibility statements.

Amanda: We have this problem all over the place of people claiming to be accessible, so +1 on the vetting.

Brent: Same issue with the Tools list. Have we received feedback on the quality of tools being presented?

Eric: Vendors are indicated very clearly, so they're putting their credibility on the line. The way tools are presented does not call for as much evaluation.

Sharron: The oint in bringing this question to face to face is to avoid another project that we just kick down the road. We hope to decide if we want to commit to the development of a Components list and find a way to do it -OR- we decode it has too many significant problems and we drop it.

KrisAnne: We have to think of upkeep and maintenance too.

Amanda: On the one hand I see it as a good starting point for developers, but on the other hand when you look into the Tools list it's very long and I wonder if/how people use the list.

Eric: The workload should be OK if it's shared between several people.
... If the submission level is not as good as expected, we can be more strict in the way it's presented to filter out up front.
... I think it can work out.

Sharron: It's important for us to make a decision here and submit it to the group through survey.

Eric: We are not in a hurry to complete this but if funding comes, we can push the project up in the tasks list.
... I propose following resolution: if the project sounds useful we can vote for it to start when we get the funding

RESOLUTION: EOWG is commited to pursuing the UI Components list. The project plan for the completion and maintenance of the database will be revisited in January.

[ Sharron will add it to the calendar in due time. ]

<Chris> +1

<Sharron> +1


<Amanda_M> +1

<Sylvie> +1

<Brent> +1

<Vicki> +1

<yatil> +1

<Krisanne> +1

Discussion with Silver TF

Jeanne: We have 3 prototypes for Silver and we want to test them with users.

Jeanne: Also would like to talk about relationship between EO content and Silver, we want to build that right in.
... Also talk about EO contributing to Silver in the long term.
... Three prototypes.
... Plan is to compress the structure: Guidelines and Methods.

<yatil> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1V_nYD27N6kx8gRha0rrdQK8aKyvg7kKXu6rs44We7IU/edit#slide=id.p

Jeanne: Hessite diagram Guidelines -> Tags -> Methods for accomplishing

ShawnLauriat: Guideline A will reveal all the methods or can be filtered by tags.

Jeanne: All will be written in plain language. Want to move away from ensuring that everything is testable to a True or False statement, will implement other ways to test (usability, rubrics, disability experience) flexible testing to allow more cognitive rules, etc.

ShawnLauriat: tests will apply to Methods and be tied much more closely. As it is now, generalizable tests are meant to apply across all types of content and platform and inevitably become tortured or distorted.

Jeanne: We want people to move accessibility into the development process earlier, make it more understandable and easier to implement throughout.

ShawnLauriat: Principles become tags, the SC numbers and levels will go away (A AA AAA) they will go away for a few reasons: the problems of shoehorning in new guidelines as it evolves (don't want to re-number) and also the tendency of people in the know to refer to SC by number and keep those who are not experts out of the conversation.
... it also is a maintenance problem.
... the structure itself has become a barrier to familiarity. This new way of having a flat list means new guidance is easily added, as are new methods on existing guidance. Using principles as tags you can reference both perceivable and operable when both apply to a standard.

Eric: How can I say what I am testing against? If not 1.1.1?

Jeanne: Will address that question but first let's finish looking at the architecture.
... this is what it will look like (refers to slide)
... similar to the QuickRef but coming from the other direction.

ShawnLauriat: So far it is entirely placeholder text to leave focus on the architecture.
... illustrates how the tags/methods could be organized and displayed

Stephane: Any needs for people who want to filter according to principles?
... teaching tool about which method applies to which principle. That many filters can be scary.

Jeanne: Can we work with the data you got from the QuickRef cardsort?

Eric: Will check the see whare is the data for that.

Amanda: A pre-filter may be useful

Jeanne: We want to provide enough filtering for people to get to what they need but not so many they are overwhelmed.

Brent: This is the information prototype and you have also a plain language prototype and a conformance prototype...why?

Jeanne: To facilate user testing with separate goals for each.
... EO looked at one of the early prototypes and it is still in W3C space for you to look at and play with.

<yatil> https://w3c.github.io/silver/prototypes/PlainLanguage2/SectionHeading.html

Jeanne: for this example no one worked on other tabs so I wrote the other tabs and please remember that I am not a plain language editor.
... would like to invite EO to contribute in this way, to write the content in our group and then turn it over to a plain language editor in EO.
... the goal is to use the tabs to orient people to the item, define responsibility, provide guidance, methods, assign points, then develop, test, audit and receive points. Each method is associated with a guideline and has a score assigned to it to help with planning and setting goals. Wewant experts in each area to assure the right content.
... at this point we think only the guideline will be normative, the rest will be informative and therefore much easier to keep current.
... we want to embed the guidance video and want EO to think about how you want to be credited, how to handle.

Jeane: The work of EO is so aligned with the goals of Silver, we do not want to re-invent what you do, but to use it and provide another way for people to see it.

Eric: It seems a very powerful way to deliver the information.

Jeanne: We are adding more guidelines and want to do user testing and validate that this is the right way to go.

Brent: How can we help at this point?

Eric: We have another project kicking off in January to develop curricula. If we can keep this in mind, it might help.

Jeanne: Would like people to do user testing rounds in the short term. Longer term, will write content in 1st, 2nd quarter of 2019. Would like plain language editors. Once we charter and are an official project, would like to collaborate in continuing to develop the content. Silver participants have a lot of expertise about what should be in the guidelines. Do not have great experience in how to express it.

Brent: It fits very well with our current operational mode. We have learned a lot about how to express ourselves effectively.

<notabene> Jeanne: [diagram] Silver conformance could look like individual methods (originally called "guidance measures"), tests, user testing and whatever metrics appropriate. Each one will have a point score We are still working on scoring. Approach has been influenced by the AIR judging form and are looking at point accumulation. Different products have different accessibility needs, so scoring is going to be different, different methods to validate according to project (say static website). We want to move to a task-based assessment. So far WCAG was page-based. Websites that meet WCAG still have major accessibility and usability problems and we want to avoid perpetuating that. A method is needed that can effectively scale according to site size etc. Currently, a page-oriented conformance cannot apply to a big thing like e.g. Facebook. scalability is an issue especially for big complex social media sites
...So we are looking at a complex set of methods that will come with a point system. The overall score is going to be on the whole project.

Amanda:Problem to define where non-conformance is sometimes: user? software? proper conformance?

Jeanne: We want to research how do do valid usability testing.

Jeanne:Dave Sloan, others helping to establish valid usability testing. Reduce subjectivy, relying on techniques to reduce it in the usability community
...An individual developer sometimes can do their own usability testing, so we want to provide methods to do that. For example we would have a method about how to add alt text in HTML, PDF, etc. But we don't know how good that text is.

<notabene> ...We can have one method (with points) for the presence of alt, and another for the quality of the text. And possibly another method for automated alt text for bigger social networks.

Shawn Lauriat:We're considering a portion of conformity would give a portion of the points.

Sharron:However many points I get for other criteria, how is critical criteria not conforming going to fit into this?

Jeanne: We want to have sections and a certain amount of points in each section. This will enable us to take critical blockers into account. We should have another meeting with EO specifically on conformance.

Eric:Guidelines being more granular will be shorter.

Jeanne: We talked with ACT about testing, and very granular/specific rules could be a good method for testing.

Amanda:Concerned that people will only conform up to the number of people they need.

Jeanne: We need to think about critical blockers and what they are...I do think we should have a method to point out to essential methods without which you never conform.

Brent:As a chair, we invite you to feel free to request help from EO. If you have specific questions then we're ready to help.

Eric:Also, smaller stones feel easier to contribute to.

Jeanne: We want to make the rating system transparent so that people know how it works...Considering eight factors and weighting them and coming up with a formula.

Sharron:What is the timeline for transition?

Jeanne:First Rec should be 2021. WCAG 2.2 is going to be published in the meantime. WCAG 2.X AA may end up mapped to Bronze level to ease the transition.

Ash:This new approach is going to be a Rec. What is the risk factor? What is the potential for it to be adopted?

Jeanne: There are currently two groups working on Silver. Silver TF and Silver Community Group (CG). The latter is leading and anyone can join on what is called "incubation". So Silver as a CG is incubating work that is planned to be integrated into the WG at some future time. Working Groups have to be chartered by W3C. In practice, if a CG develops something sufficiently well-developed, it will transition to a WG more easily.

Jeanne:This is why we're pushing off charter for another year. Hopefully the AC is going to find the work well on its way and we will charter it. We're also doing the user testing and wide public review to increase understanding and reduce risk. We follow W3C process, work by consensus etc.
...Putting up a CG enabled many people to come and help who might not have been able to otherwise. When we put up the charter the project is going to be very advanced and we're going to have a lot to show in the Rec prototype.

Brent: Back to how we can help.

<notabene> Jeanne: In the next two months, if people are interested in helping us with conformance level, you're welcome to. Also writer, editors in plain language would help a lot. We want to be more welcoming towards people, through whatever tool needed to move forward.

Eric:Also it seems that reformatting everything can help translations. That shouldn't be on the contributors.

Brent:We learnt that forcing people to use tools e.g. github is not the way to go. Some people prefer it, some can't get the hang of it and for some it is simply inaccessible.

Sharron: Thank you both so much for coming, for an excellent overview and ideas for how we can collaborate. We meet AG in their room next so we will take a short break and do that. Thanks again.


Discussion with AG - Understanding docs

[from AG IRC]

MG: I think especially for these first ones, sending one at a time makes sense. Iterate, so you are spending more time on what we think is useful.

AWK: sure, fine with that - send them one at a time to Alastair the TF cochair instead of Alastair the AG co-chair

Brent: we can do that

Brent: We will continue to work with AG as planned, will send the three we have completed to get in a groove of what they may or not want to accept, get feedback to inform the process going forward.
... then will learn from that and send diff files in future to Alastair for acceptance. They are trying to get Techniques revised by EOY and we will try to shoot for March to complete all of the Understanding docs.

Easy Checks revision

Sharron: We're referring people to this widely-used resource. But problems with that have arisen since it is no longer maintained. The process is too onerous at the moment and no staff is assigned to it. This is a high priority for me personally because I hear in the field how eagerly people adopt it. It is also in our charter to update. , so we want to know what the group feels about it.
...Concern: no dedicated resource.
... Sharron will step up as EasyChecks editor.

Vivienne: Me too, we refer our clients to it constantly, it is an important resource.

Amanda: Same.

Sylvie: I didn't look at the documents for a long time, can you say what needs to be updated and why?

Sharron: A big problem with EasyChecks (EC from now on) is we recommend tools that are obsolete, we recommend techniques that are not really "easy." It can sometimes be an embarrasment due to the fact that so much of the references are not longer accurate and there is nothing in there for new SCs of 2.1. So Sylvie, I will turn it back to you, do you refer people to it?

Sylvie: French people don't read English documents too much. So no, so I haven't followed on its obsolescence.

Eric: We do take the time to refine our documents and it's good, but the time is long and by the end some things may be outdated.
... We should find a way to nod to translators when we're done working on the documents.
... EC is a long document, so we may think about structuring it differently.

Sharron: It's a thing we are going to do, think about the structure and to do a mojor revision so it is more accurate.

Amanda: We can also add 2.1 to them.

<shawn> We did discuss the title: https://github.com/w3c/EasyChecks/issues/84

Sharron: We will streamline language, point to new tools (or bookmarklets).

<shawn> Easy Checks Next Gen https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks_Next_Gen

Eric: We have tutorials which get into implementation details, but we dont have the same for testing, so EC is where we point people to.

Brent: We had a discussion about the title (see shawn's URL).
... captured earlier discussions about revamping on https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks_Next_Gen

Eric: Ideas are: Filtering, Screencasts.
... I like screencasts as ways to help people get on board step by step.

Vivienne: These are easy to produce.

Brent: This should tie in with the Tools list.

Chris: Do we need mobile-specific EC as it's a very different approach to testing.

Eric: We want to first concentrate on Web stuff and do that right.
... We could list those as we already list operating systems etc.

Sharron: Shawn has serious reservations, not prepared to provide details right now. Does anyone else feel it's not the time to renovate EC?

<shawn> Shawn agrees it's a high priority -- just very concerned with the number of other projects EOWG has going right now. https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/index.php?title=EOWG_Current_Projects&oldid=24417#2018_Current_Work

Vivienne: Many people only use this resource because they're told it's the go-to resource.

Sharron: Business case is wrapping up. Translations are just getting started, and Sylvie is right it's a priority and Shawn will lead on those. But EC being obsolete is not to our credit.

Amanda: Shawn has a lot to do but Sharron can lead this.

Shawn: I'm not prepared to respond yet to that idea.

Sharron: So I think we can summarize that there is consensus or at least majority opinion agrees there's a need for revision. So how that will be organizaed can be discussed by the planning team.

Eric: We have to think about the outcome, planning, responsibilities etc.

KrisAnne: I'd like to make EC more manageable by breaking them up in smaller chunks.

Sharron: This next iteration will be less effort than the original build, we have learned alot. Also have learned from feedback from users in the field.

Vivienne: We changed the presentation with the new site, but we didn't update the content - as we said we would do with all our resources The style needs to be updated. New format to be found like what we want to do and what's the best way to do it.
... It's not bad or wrong, it just needs to be updated to actually be easier to use.

Eric: This transition was to be expected and it's OK.

Amanda: Maybe we need to list people who are ready to help when time comes.

Brent: That's what the process is: bring things up to the agenda and see if/when we decide to do things.
... The planning team will take it up.

<Krisanne> Accessuse.eu is an example of well done support.


[ Eric presenting the configuration ]

<yatil> https://w3c.github.io/wai-translation-playground/people-use-web/fr/

Eric: I added a box to give translation information pointing to source, crediting translators, date of translation etc.

Shawn: We have a list of proposals for translations on the Wiki.
... We want to make sure a link to the translation is visible on the original page.

[ Shawn reading wiki page ]


Shawn: We have this example that Eric's put up on https://w3c.github.io/wai-translation-playground/people-use-web/fr/

Vivienne: Is the whole navigation going to be translated as well?

Shawn: The plan is: if the information is available in that language, then it will be in that language

Eric: You stay in the same navigation but are in another language, but articles not translated are still going to be in English if we don't have the resource in the page's language.
... We don't want to hide content not translated yet.

Shawn: Eric is going to automate all that.

KrisAnne: We must also translate elements of interaction like buttons ("I want to help").

Eric: Yes, and next/previous buttons must be translated, and we will.

Shawn: We will translate the interface.

Sylvie: I wanted to see it translated for several years, so I'm happy to see it!
... It would be great to know if a resource is translated or not, if it's ready to be translated.

Stephane: Dom and Richard can help us with that, we already worked by CC'ing the w3c-translators mailing list. There is a process already in place.

Eric: IT's going to evolve with the new process being put in place through github, they're thinking it through at the moment.

Sylvie: How will the process be?

[ interruption, guests are invited to speak before leaving for another meeting ]

Muhammad and Nayef: Arabic translation: in different regions we may need to have different translations in different regions.

scribe: Terms can be unrecognized from one group to another.
... We must be able to edit documents to accomodate different terms for the same word in variants of Arabic.
... e.g. "Server" is not a unique name in Arabic.

Shadi: To add to that, it's not specific, we have 2 translations for Portuguese (Portugal vs. Brazil).
... We have 2 processes, the first is Authorized translations, the second is Unofficial translations where anyone can translated and it's not endorsed by W3C.

<shawn> yes, will have a quick review

Shadi: We're going to let anybody translate or have a quick review?

Shawn: Yes, we'll quick-review.

Eric: We should be open but cannot be completely open.
... We could create community groups.

Shadi: There needs to be some minimal review because it's official website material.
... Local offices may be asked to help.

Eric: We could push reviews as issues to Github.

Shawn: We might put up a mailing list for language-specific translators, and you would get notifications for review.
... We might end up having a glossary for translating items.
... Like the ways we talk about disabilities.
... We're coordinating for that.

Sylvie: Was asking about the process. Also, I'm lost with multilanguage mockups: parts of navigation in English, parts in French.
... It's confusing from a usability point of view.

Eric: We will settle things when we finalize the mockups.
... Currently it's Markdown. We have to talk about what format translators are comfortable in.

Shawn: It's in the open issues, Richard has an eye on that.
... Ideally its good that people submit translations and we can do the work, but it may need more resources on our end.
... Who can help code?

Stephane: Stepping up for French.

Eric: We need to document the process.

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WAI_Translations#EOWG_questions

[ Summary of discussion for newcomers ]

Eric: Issues: How do we switch languages? How do we present translations (up to date or not)?

<r12a> https://w3c.github.io/wai-translation-playground/people-use-web/

<yatil> https://w3c.github.io/wai-translation-playground/people-use-web/fr/

Shawn: We have open questions about UI, how you can find translations.
... What is not ready for discussion yet is tutorials, process.
... Welcoming input from Internationalization.

Vicki: When you have main content in one language and navigation in another, that can be confusing to users.
... We have addressed it for very large websites by limiting navigation to current language in current page and point to a overview page to navigate broadly.

<Bert> Typical translated page in the CSS area (translations in this area are managed by me)

Sharron: That makes sense.

Vicki: As we added content the menus got longer.

Richard: I have a page in Persian. One problem you're going to have if you just link to a home is the findability of this one link to the home page.

Vicki: We have a top navigation banner giving links to give option to switch and the rest of the page is monolingual.

Eric: I like the idea to show links, this shows what work is still to be done.
... Also we can show the language for all the links, if we hide non-translated content it may look as if the content is poor.

<Vicki> http://www.wipo.int/portal/zh/index.html

Shawn: Pages in Internationalization activitty show a paragraph explaining partial translation.

Vicky: How is translation prioritzed?

Shawn: We will have a translation priorization list.

Eric: Main navigation and landing page translation is valuable.

Amanda: Everything is switched from English to Arabic. Your eye "naturally" finds what's not translated.
... It's more of a challenge to do that when the language script doesn't change.

Richard: The overview page in Arabic is wrong for the moment. (looking at https://www.w3.org/blog/International/2011/10/16/new-translations-into-arabic/)? The titles were translated but the page is still basically in English.

Nayef: Yes this must be turned around.

Richard: Subpages are done properly.

Eric: We plan to not have mixed language.
... Everything that *is* content will be translated.

<Bert> A rtl page that is not simply mirrored

Eric: We will try to automatically do the best.

<Richard> https://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/language

Shawn: Keep in mind minimal viable product and the limited resources we have. Also we're going to one language to translations.
... In the past we've had very few translations and it's good to keep realistic.
... We must keep in mind what we can realistically do.

<Vicki> At this url, you can see that all content on this page will (never) be translated. However, the titles of publications are translated followed in brackets by (in English). http://www.wipo.int/pct/es/index.html

Eric: Some of the headers can be easy to translate. I want to push a "cheap" something and work up from that.

Bert: You mentioned language negotiation. I have some pages like that, but most of them are not negociated.
... Because I know the quality of the English page but cannot always validate the translation's quality. The user has the choice to read the authoritative version.
... Also, navigation menu: A software generates the localized version based on localized strings for each language.
... If we want to offer the whole navigation even if things are not translated, the menu is translated.
... The title of the page link is in English if said page was not translated yet.
... We always add an English link pointing to the official English page.

Richard: In i18n pages we jump to a default page if the translation is not available (negociation).
... We use cookies for users to specify preferred reading language.
... You always have the choice to stay in the language, choose another one.
... Main reason we set a cookie is because some people may want to stay in some language although their browser would negotiate otherwise.

Shawn: That was very beautiful and works well for my use cases. ...Proposal: we do that.

Bert: I have a few right-to-left pages and some things have to be adjusted manually, it's not all automatic.
... I had to change a few CSS rules.

Eric: We hope translators will tell us how things should work and behave.

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/language

Richard: You can do a lot without waiting for input from translators.

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/language-ar

<addison> https://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/language.ar

Mine was https://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/language.fr

Richard: List of languages is inverted as well.
... It worries me you may not translate header and footer, because they feature important information.
... Those strings were translated only once and are then pushed into the page automatically.

Eric: This is what we will do.
... We also have to discuss what we translate or not (eg Web Accessibility Initiative).
... The end goal is certainly to translate everything.

Brent: Were some of the pages in the menu not Arabic but English only?

Richard: Yes.
... We translate the articles but not the main navigation pages (practical tip).

Shadi: We're trying to push translations to be online and then we'll see how we update later.

Eric: It's the challenge: We want to publish quickly and at the same time want to have translations.
... An older translation is better than no translation at all.

Amanda: +1

Eric: The block at the beginning of the page aims at addressing the issue of evergreen content.
... If a translation is too old, we may discuss if we want to remove it.

Richard: We quite regularly come across things that we don't want to see printed. So we regularly pull translations when they're too old.
... We add Javascript files to pages and they provide information about up-to-date versions.

<shawn> relevant GitHub issue https://github.com/w3c/wai-translations/issues/9

Richard: Then we can move the best version up in the language-switching programmatic process.

Sylvie: Define "too old"?

Shadi: Depends on the resource, if it's a comma edit or substantial.

Richard: We have several levels.
... If it's a comma it's negligible.
... If it's an image I can change the URL
... If it's a new paragraph and they don't translate it after several notices and it changes meaning, the article is pulled if not updated within a short time frame (one month).

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask for final comments & wrap up

Shawn: We're going to evaluate this feedback and ask everybody to take a look at the mockups.
... Page semantics, too.
... Findability and usability.
... Icon in breadcrumb etc.
... Everything is in the Wiki page, please contribute.
... Everything is up to discussion.

Stephane: I really like the way it works on i18n and would love to see the same mechanisms in WAI section.

Eric: We may need help.

Brent: KrisAnne suggests : if we're translating, we could also provide sign languages.

<yatil> +1 for sign language

Brent: We can talk about details later.

<yatil> (if we can do it :-D)

<shawn> +1 for sign languages

KrisAnne: If not everything, we could at least provide an intro in sign language.

+1 for intro as "first effort"

Richard: There's a lot more we can talk about so we can discuss further. We can help.


[ Side topic: Meeting planning ]

Sharron: Can we cancel Thursday meeting?

Shawn: We're all in sync!

<Vicki> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Showcase_Examples_with_Videos/Outreach_Plan

<shawn> main page https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Outreach

<shawn> example https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Showcase_Examples_with_Videos/Outreach_Plan

More on Outreach for EO resources

Brent: Eric reminded us that we have in the past had good plans that we followed for a while and then have fallen off. It is exciting to think about it and a key is to maintain follow up so that we can continue to be effective. So I would like to 1. identify what we do well 2. what we are able to all contribute to and finally 3. maintaining the drive and momentum
... we created an outreach plan that helped maintain our momentum

<shawn> twitter not very visible. it's just at https://www.w3.org/WAI/news/subscribe/

Sharron: Chris said two things yesterday - "Follow us on Twitter" and do a weekly standup, what will we do for outreach this week?

Amanda: What motivates people? I get most motivated at the face to face meetings. If four times a year, we plan outreach for the quarter that will make more sense.
... otherwise things can get stale.

Sharron: I get that and agree about the possibility of getting stale. However to check in each week might still motivate us.

Eric: Two things could help: being more agile in development and publishing and having good solid evergreen content.

Amanda: One of the things when you set campaigns up, you use schedulers, relevant things are pushed out without so much effort.

Vicki: Are we a little bit looser now that we can get some analytics?

Brent: We need to be specific about what we want from Eric to see what they can provide?

Eric: The old analytics data was not relevant and so we do not want to mislead.
... the number of visitors would not mean anything.

Chris: Google analytics?

Eric: No
... we use an alternative version that gives the same data without giving it away.

Shadi: What is the relevance? What are we trying to do?

Chris: Outreach

Shadi: We don't go easy with revealing the data for protection, it is the right of every org to protect its data. Rather what is the purpose? Do we want to know the impact of certain actions, yes, we can answer these questions.

Amanda: We need to know what we are trying to learn.

Eric: Page views, average time on page, bounce rate, generation rate. Can do comparisons and all.

Amanda: it ultimately comes down to - are we running a social media campaign and if so, how will we know if it is effective.
... some possibilitites, live FB videos, auto-captioned and edited within 15 minutes

Eric: When it comes to social outreach we must go where the people are and that turns out to be corporate social media. W3C has a FB page, not sure if WAI does.

Amanda: we made a decision at our company to use the same content and push out to all outlets.

Shadi: The discussion was how to maintain outreach - I like the idea to make an outreach plan quarterly or maybe use the survey.
... the work of a small group may be to fill the queue with items?
... building the habit in our regular work and then building channels

Brent: I support that,let's build outreach in a small way and get good at it.
... then add more things

Eric: Choose an article to foucs on and the survey quetions would be "Have you talked about item X today?"
... also need to outreach to W3C groups as well.

KrisAnne: If we knew how things are performing, could we highlight some of the under viewed articles?

Eric: Like Older Users

Sharron: Or planning and managing guide

Stephane: I like this reverse view at analytics: which pages are not viewed and if so, can we figure out why

Shawn: Wanted to emphasize the "inreach" to others throughout W3C - members, WG participants, W3C staff, etc. (Especially we will be rechartering in a year and would be nice if AC reps think our work is great.:)

Brent: Good point

Amanda: Getting us out there at other conferences

Eric: If we get stickers...

KrisAnne: There's resource for that

<shawn> WAI has a resource for that.

<notabene> +1 for sticker motto

<shawn> it takes wayyyy more than 1/2 hour to do any of that

Shadi: Do stickers do any good? any value or benefit?

Stephane: The more you see a brand, the more likely you are to use it in response to a question.

Brent: We go to CSUN and have a WAI presentation and sometimes have 20 or 30 people come. If we brought stickers to CSUN could have 2000 people know about us.

Eric: And remember where you got it, and what it realates to.
... a11y cats t-shirt

careful about thinking it does not take long, for instance the dev outreach W3Cx did is quite hard to read, we don't want to fall in this kind of problem, especially re: accesibility

Brent: We should have a sticker and the other thing is to build on KrisAnne's comment about inreach. I often think I might reach out to people in my company about a resource. If I am going to write to all of Pearson about a particular resource, why not make it available to all of the EO group?

Kris: 2 types of outreach. First to those who know about us and here are our new resources. But also to all the many many people out there who do not even know that accessibility exists.
... things about accessibility in general.

Shawn:We did what Brent said e.g., https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Showcase_Examples_with_Videos/Outreach_Plan -- what worked and didn't work before? how to

Shawn: Agree with KrisAnne. Go beyond just promoting a specific resources. Think broader. What are messages? who are the audiences we want to reach with those messages?

Brent: We will always do the blast for a new resource but what can we do consistently?

Eric: When things are communicated on a regular schedule, people get used to seeing it and bond to it. Had the fantasy to release a new resource every couple of weeks.

Brent: Did not have a plan but will focus on how to do a sustained effort.

Shadi: When I joined EO, we began every meeting with a quick update about what is going on in your corner of the world.

Shawn:yup, yup - we use to have an open time in the telecon "what's up with accessibility around your sphere?

RESOLUTION: EOWG will have outreach on the survey and as a topic at every meeting for at least 5 minutes.

<yatil> +1

<chris> +1

<notabene> +1

<Vicki> +1

<Amanda_M> +1

<yatil> +1 for Shadi and Kris Anne

<Brent> +1

Sharron: +1

<shawn> OK

<Sylvie> +1

<shawn> want to make sure that we're using the exchanges to positively influence EOWG's overall work (not get too insular)

<notabene> +1 on shawn's remark - we serve WAI

Brent: shares ideas from Pearson about how they recognized people who were taking proactive accessibility actions, from 6 a few years ago, to more than 60 now.

<shawn> idea from yesterday -- post WAI resources in comments to other articles

Eric: A Book Apart wants to get to know Scott Kubie and we could similar outreach by recognizing specific people.

<shawn> in that light -- take a group picture now!

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

  1. EOWG is committed to pursuing the UI Components list. The project plan for the completion and maintenance of the database will be retvisited in January.
  2. EOWG will have outreach on the survey and as a topic at every meeting for at least 5 minutes.
[End of minutes]

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.154 (CVS log)
$Date: 2018/12/05 03:00:06 $