Meeting Record

XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face

Minutes of 23 April 2009

Agenda

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#2009-04-23

Seen

Alessio Cartocci, Gregory Rosmaita, Markus Gylling, Roland Merrick, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton, Tina Holmboe, Unknown YvesS, Unknown Yves_S

Chair

Roland Merrick

Scribe

Gregory Rosmaita

IRC Log

Original

Resolutions

request CURIE to be transitioned from CR to PR link

Topics

Agenda Review
Agenda Shaping
CURIEs
ITS Integration Discussion with YvesS
Issues 7659 (AnneVK comments)
Issue-7656, Comments from Neil Katin
D - a single element to indicate dialogue
Next Steps on XHTML2

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11:59:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc ←

11:59:19 <Steven> zakim, room for 8 at 12z for 240m?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, room for 8 at 12z for 240m? ←

11:59:19 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Steven.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, Steven. ←

11:59:37 <Steven> zakim, room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins

Steven Pemberton: zakim, room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins ←

11:59:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins', Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins', Steven ←

11:59:48 <Steven> zakim, room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins? ←

11:59:50 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)12:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) at 12:00z for 240 minutes until 1600Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)12:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) at 12:00z for 240 minutes until 1600Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked ←

12:00:25 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF1 (26631)

Steven Pemberton: Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF1 (26631) ←

12:00:33 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:00:33 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:00:34 <Zakim> Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has now started ←

12:00:35 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:00:42 <Roland> trackbot, start telcon

Roland Merrick: trackbot, start telcon ←

12:00:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←

12:00:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2 ←

12:00:46 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot ←

12:00:47 <trackbot> Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference

12:00:47 <trackbot> Date: 23 April 2009

Trackbot IRC Bot: Date - 23 April 2009 ←

12:01:12 <Steven> s/Date:/Date - /

12:02:05 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:02:05 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:02:21 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is here? ←

12:02:21 <Zakim> I notice Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has restarted

Zakim IRC Bot: I notice Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has restarted ←

12:02:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, Roland_Merrick

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Steven, Roland_Merrick ←

12:02:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot ←

12:02:24 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

12:02:25 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:02:46 <Roland> Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland

Roland Merrick: Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland ←

12:02:46 <Zakim> +Roland; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Roland; got it ←

12:02:52 <Zakim> +Markus

Zakim IRC Bot: +Markus ←

12:05:24 <Steven> zakim, code?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, code? ←

12:05:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven ←

12:05:34 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

12:06:19 <Zakim> +McCarron

Zakim IRC Bot: +McCarron ←

12:06:29 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron is ShaneM

Shane McCarron: zakim, McCarron is ShaneM ←

12:06:29 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it ←

12:06:34 <Steven> can anyone hear me speaking?

Steven Pemberton: can anyone hear me speaking? ←

12:06:43 <oedipus> no, steven

Gregory Rosmaita: no, steven ←

12:06:50 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

12:06:56 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:06:56 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:06:58 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:07:17 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is here? ←

12:07:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM ←

12:07:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot ←

12:10:53 <Steven> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#2009-04-23

12:11:12 <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

(Scribe set to Gregory Rosmaita)

12:11:17 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus

12:11:22 <oedipus> regrets+ Rich_S

regrets+ Rich_S ←

12:11:30 <oedipus> Topic: Agenda Review

1. Agenda Review

12:11:40 <oedipus> RM: each item will have 30 minutes devoted to it

Roland Merrick: each item will have 30 minutes devoted to it ←

12:11:55 <oedipus> SP: Yves will be joining us on ITS integration at 1400h UTC

Steven Pemberton: Yves will be joining us on ITS integration at 1400h UTC ←

12:12:03 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/meeting/2009-03-26#how_to_incorporate_ITS

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/meeting/2009-03-26#how_to_incorporate_ITS ←

12:12:04 <oedipus> RM: what do we need to cover with Yves

Roland Merrick: what do we need to cover with Yves ←

12:12:29 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration ←

12:12:56 <oedipus> SP: 3 options: inline similar to inline styling; put in head as meta info, or use XLink

Steven Pemberton: 3 options: inline similar to inline styling; put in head as meta info, or use XLink ←

12:13:14 <oedipus> MG: should as to use LINK element not XLink

Markus Gylling: should as to use LINK element not XLink ←

12:13:46 <oedipus> MG: XLink one of many ways, so not a hard and fast requirement; do we want to do everything?  has its own ruby module, translation stuff

Markus Gylling: XLink one of many ways, so not a hard and fast requirement; do we want to do everything? has its own ruby module, translation stuff ←

12:14:26 <oedipus> MG: elements in legacy documents without changing them through external XSLT; use XPath to indicate were should be applied; referencing implementations - required to prove works

Markus Gylling: elements in legacy documents without changing them through external XSLT; use XPath to indicate were should be applied; referencing implementations - required to prove works ←

12:14:33 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport

http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport ←

12:14:39 <oedipus> SP: is ITS out of CR?

Steven Pemberton: is ITS out of CR? ←

12:14:50 <oedipus> SM: yes, been a rec for quite some time

Shane McCarron: yes, been a rec for quite some time ←

12:15:04 <oedipus> SP: if referring to existing technologies, is ok

Steven Pemberton: if referring to existing technologies, is ok ←

12:15:09 <oedipus> RM: what is minimum we can do?

Roland Merrick: what is minimum we can do? ←

12:15:18 <oedipus> SP: LINK element to ITS rules

Steven Pemberton: LINK element to ITS rules ←

12:15:33 <oedipus> RM: still doesn't limit exposure - still have to understand everything in ITS

Roland Merrick: still doesn't limit exposure - still have to understand everything in ITS ←

12:15:43 <oedipus> RM: should we be incorporating required ITS features

Roland Merrick: should we be incorporating required ITS features ←

12:15:56 <oedipus> RM: what is appropriate to us

Roland Merrick: what is appropriate to us ←

12:16:03 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/

http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/ ←

12:16:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/its/

http://www.w3.org/TR/its/ ←

12:16:13 <oedipus> MG: ok to just pick a sub-set

Markus Gylling: ok to just pick a sub-set ←

12:16:15 <oedipus> RM: yes

Roland Merrick: yes ←

12:16:38 <oedipus> MG: ITS namespace has own ruby module - no link or dependency on Ruby spec itself

Markus Gylling: ITS namespace has own ruby module - no link or dependency on Ruby spec itself ←

12:16:50 <oedipus> MG: should we consider switching to ITS 1.0?

Markus Gylling: should we consider switching to ITS 1.0? ←

12:16:57 <oedipus> SP: asked about this - also have own SPAN element

Steven Pemberton: asked about this - also have own SPAN element ←

12:17:00 <oedipus> MG: correct

Markus Gylling: correct ←

12:17:27 <oedipus> SP: requires a SPAN-like and Ruby-like element -- provided in cases where don't have them, but if available can use

Steven Pemberton: requires a SPAN-like and Ruby-like element -- provided in cases where don't have them, but if available can use ←

12:17:39 <oedipus> SP: should check that interpretation with Yves

Steven Pemberton: should check that interpretation with Yves ←

12:17:47 <oedipus> zakim, pointer

zakim, pointer ←

12:17:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pointer', oedipus

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'pointer', oedipus ←

12:18:02 <oedipus> SM: their Ruby brought into line with Ruby Rec at some point

Shane McCarron: their Ruby brought into line with Ruby Rec at some point ←

12:18:24 <oedipus> MG: couldn't find any differences - inline ruby element names and behaviors seem same as in Ruby spec

Markus Gylling: couldn't find any differences - inline ruby element names and behaviors seem same as in Ruby spec ←

12:18:34 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/techniques/its-techniques.html#integration-its-xhtmlmod

http://www.w3.org/International/its/techniques/its-techniques.html#integration-its-xhtmlmod ←

12:18:50 <oedipus> SP: fundamental question: to what extent can we sub-set this given our current functionality

Shane McCarron: fundamental question: to what extent can we sub-set this given our current functionality ←

12:19:03 <Steven> s/SP/SM/

12:19:19 <oedipus> SM: are we going to incorporate ITS as part of their namespace or ours?

Shane McCarron: are we going to incorporate ITS as part of their namespace or ours? ←

12:19:28 <oedipus> SM: my vote is: do it in their namespace

Shane McCarron: my vote is: do it in their namespace ←

12:19:31 <oedipus> SP: agree

Steven Pemberton: agree ←

12:19:33 <oedipus> GJR: agree

Gregory Rosmaita: agree ←

12:19:52 <oedipus> SP: if just point to set of rules rather than inline, only case that arises is its:translate attribute

Steven Pemberton: if just point to set of rules rather than inline, only case that arises is its:translate attribute ←

12:20:06 <oedipus> SP: propose bringing its:translate into XHTML2

Steven Pemberton: propose bringing its:translate into XHTML2 ←

12:20:13 <oedipus> SM: as an attribute in their namespace

Shane McCarron: as an attribute in their namespace ←

12:20:15 <oedipus> SP: yes

Steven Pemberton: yes ←

12:20:34 <oedipus> SP: what we are missing is "translate"

Steven Pemberton: what we are missing is "translate" ←

12:21:16 <oedipus> SM: inline ITS is a sticking point -

Shane McCarron: inline ITS is a sticking point - ←

12:21:37 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration ←

12:21:59 <oedipus> SM: not bring in all elements, but bring in things like "translation" referenced to their namespace

Shane McCarron: not bring in all elements, but bring in things like "translation" referenced to their namespace ←

12:22:55 <oedipus> SP: questions: 1) does spec allow us to use our native SPAN and RUBY and dir; 2) are you ok with only external ITS; can we use LINK? what would be the Role value

Steven Pemberton: questions: 1) does spec allow us to use our native SPAN and RUBY and dir; 2) are you ok with only external ITS; can we use "ref" with LINK to accomplish this?? what would be the rel value ←

12:23:11 <oedipus> SP: how do they do that in XLink

Steven Pemberton: how do they do that in XLink ←

12:23:27 <ShaneM> <link rel="itsRules" ... ?

Shane McCarron: <link rel="itsRules" ... ? ←

12:23:32 <oedipus> s/can we use LINK/can we use "ref" with LINK to accomplish this?

12:23:52 <ShaneM> oooh.    use CURIEs <link rel="its:rules"

Shane McCarron: oooh. use CURIEs <link rel="its:rules" ←

12:23:54 <oedipus> SP: could suggest its:rules "rel" value

Steven Pemberton: could suggest its:rules "rel" value ←

12:24:07 <oedipus> SM: would have to declare its prefix vocab mapping

Shane McCarron: would have to declare its prefix vocab mapping ←

12:24:16 <oedipus> SM: also ITS namespace has to be the same

Shane McCarron: also ITS namespace has to be the same ←

12:24:38 <oedipus> SP: already an ITS namespace with value rules in it

Steven Pemberton: already an ITS namespace with value rules in it ←

12:24:43 <oedipus> SP: its:rules element

Steven Pemberton: its:rules element ←

12:24:49 <oedipus> SM: correct

Shane McCarron: correct ←

12:25:02 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/ ←

12:25:05 <oedipus> SM: could show them how to annotate as RDF

Shane McCarron: could show them how to annotate as RDF ←

12:25:13 <ShaneM> There's no there-there right now

Shane McCarron: There's no there-there right now ←

12:25:25 <oedipus> SP: no, this is more a namespace question, although there is a GRDDL version i thought i came across

Steven Pemberton: no, this is more a namespace question, although there is a GRDDL version i thought i came across ←

12:25:40 <oedipus> SM: like idea of using CURIEs - use their vocabularies and have it just work

Shane McCarron: like idea of using CURIEs - use their vocabularies and have it just work ←

12:25:51 <Steven> <link>

Steven Pemberton: <link> ←

12:26:24 <Steven> <link rel=ts:rules"href="...."/>

Steven Pemberton: <link rel=ts:rules" href="...."/> ←

12:26:34 <oedipus> SP: what is missing is version info

Steven Pemberton: what is missing is version info ←

12:26:35 <Steven> s/href/ href/

12:26:57 <oedipus> RM: LINK in HEAD and nowhere else

Roland Merrick: LINK in HEAD and nowhere else ←

12:27:06 <oedipus> RM: allow its:translate on one of our elements

Roland Merrick: allow its:translate on one of our elements ←

12:27:44 <oedipus> SM: vocabulary concatonated to name

Shane McCarron: vocabulary concatonated to name ←

12:28:14 <oedipus> MG: can take Qname, right?

Markus Gylling: can take Qname, right? ←

12:28:22 <oedipus> SP: syntaxically similar to Qname

Steven Pemberton: syntaxically similar to Qname ←

12:28:34 <Steven> a qname is a subset of curie

Steven Pemberton: a qname is a subset of curie ←

12:28:36 <oedipus> MG: MarkB - advised use of Qnames along with role values - is that right?

Markus Gylling: MarkB - advised use of Qnames along with role values - is that right? ←

12:28:49 <oedipus> SM: interesting question

Shane McCarron: interesting question ←

12:29:22 <oedipus> SM: can put anything want in quotation marks, but conforming RDFa parser not going to allow triples

Shane McCarron: can put anything want in quotation marks, but conforming RDFa parser not going to allow triples ←

12:29:38 <oedipus> SM: Qname doesn't map to IRI like CURIE

Shane McCarron: Qname doesn't map to IRI like CURIE ←

12:29:41 <oedipus> SP: ah

Steven Pemberton: ah ←

12:30:22 <oedipus> SP: P3P has reserved value for "rel" to do roughly the same thing

Steven Pemberton: P3P has reserved value for "rel" to do roughly the same thing ←

12:30:41 <Steven> rel="p3pv1"

Steven Pemberton: rel="p3pv1" ←

12:30:46 <Steven> (not version info)

Steven Pemberton: (note version info) ←

12:30:52 <Steven> s/not/note/

12:31:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport

http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport ←

12:31:14 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport

http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport ←

12:31:25 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/

http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/ ←

12:31:37 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration ←

12:32:05 <oedipus> s/what would be the Role value/what would be the rel value

12:32:14 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

12:32:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

12:32:48 <oedipus> SM: from implementation report and conformance language, we conform by virtue of having a native SPAN attribute

Shane McCarron: from implementation report and conformance language, we conform by virtue of having a native SPAN attribute ←

12:33:19 <oedipus> SM: one must be available: SPAN, RUBY; if Ruby used, declare inline, if SPAN used, use as inline element

Shane McCarron: one must be available: SPAN, RUBY; if Ruby used, declare inline, if SPAN used, use as inline element ←

12:33:27 <oedipus> SM: did provide us with module as per our request

Shane McCarron: did provide us with module as per our request ←

12:33:49 <oedipus> SM: also support ITS in M12n?

Shane McCarron: also support ITS in M12n? ←

12:34:19 <markus> Birbeck discussing QNames in @role: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/05/something-which-was-part-of-early.html

Markus Gylling: Birbeck discussing QNames in @role: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/05/something-which-was-part-of-early.html ←

12:34:38 <Roland> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">

Roland Merrick: <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd"> ←

12:34:38 <Roland> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"

Roland Merrick: <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" ←

12:34:38 <Roland>       xmlns:its="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its"

Roland Merrick: xmlns:its="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its" ←

12:34:38 <Roland>       xml:lang="en">

Roland Merrick: xml:lang="en"> ←

12:34:38 <Roland> <head>

Roland Merrick: <head> ←

12:34:40 <Roland>   <title>its</title>

Roland Merrick: <title>its</title> ←

12:34:42 <Roland>   <link href="../its.." rel="its:rules" type="??" />

Roland Merrick: <link href="../its.." rel="its:rules" type="??" /> ←

12:34:44 <Roland>

Roland Merrick: ←

12:34:46 <Roland> </head>

Roland Merrick: </head> ←

12:34:48 <Roland> <body>

Roland Merrick: <body> ←

12:34:50 <Roland>

Roland Merrick: ←

12:34:53 <Roland> <p its:translate="no">Grrrr</p>

Roland Merrick: Grrrr ←

12:34:54 <Roland>

Roland Merrick: ←

12:34:56 <Roland> </body>

Roland Merrick: </body> ←

12:34:58 <Roland> </html>

Roland Merrick: </html> ←

12:35:08 <oedipus> proposed questions now at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration

proposed questions now at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration ←

12:36:36 <oedipus> GJR: apply to XHTML2 only or to 1.2?

Gregory Rosmaita: apply to XHTML2 only or to 1.2? ←

12:36:46 <oedipus> RM: first agree on framework, then retrofit

Roland Merrick: first agree on framework, then retrofit ←

12:38:00 <oedipus> shane, Yves will join at http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=04&day=23&hour=14&min=00&sec=0&p1=136&p2=179&p3=215&p4=248&p5=283

shane, Yves will join at http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=04&day=23&hour=14&min=00&sec=0&p1=136&p2=179&p3=215&p4=248&p5=283 ←

12:38:09 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

12:38:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

12:38:20 <oedipus> RM: other i18n issues to discuss?

Roland Merrick: other i18n issues to discuss? ←

12:38:51 <oedipus> [none logged]

[none logged] ←

12:38:59 <oedipus> TOPIC: Agenda Shaping

2. Agenda Shaping

12:39:09 <oedipus> RM: order of agenda items: Access first?

Roland Merrick: order of agenda items: Access first? ←

12:39:34 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/ ←

12:39:34 <oedipus> SM: clear to move Access to second LC - put out new draft this morning and updated disposition of comments

Shane McCarron: clear to move Access to second LC - put out new draft this morning and updated disposition of comments ←

12:39:51 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/ ←

12:39:59 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml-access-lc-doc-20090415.html

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml-access-lc-doc-20090415.html ←

12:40:06 <oedipus> SM: happy to let draft go to LC

Shane McCarron: happy to let draft go to LC ←

12:40:28 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

12:40:38 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:40:38 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:40:40 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:40:43 <oedipus> RM: just needs a bit of editorial tidying, but ready to go, so should start process

Roland Merrick: just needs a bit of editorial tidying, but ready to go, so should start process ←

12:40:45 <oedipus> SM: yes

Shane McCarron: yes ←

12:40:56 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

12:41:23 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:41:23 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:41:25 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:41:34 <oedipus> SM: chicken and egg problem: Access refers to CURIEs CR draft; changed CURIEs so doesn't have prefixing mechanism, putting onus on host language; Access isn't a host language, so we should be ok

Shane McCarron: chicken and egg problem: Access refers to CURIEs CR draft; changed CURIEs so doesn't have prefixing mechanism, putting onus on host language; Access isn't a host language, so we should be ok ←

12:42:04 <oedipus> RM: assuming HCG has no problem with this tomorrow, can immediately ask for XHTML Access to go back to Last Call

Roland Merrick: assuming HCG has no problem with this tomorrow, can immediately ask for XHTML Access to go back to Last Call ←

12:42:09 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

12:42:19 <oedipus> SM: should be more specific about whom we need to comment on Access

Shane McCarron: should be more specific about whom we need to comment on Access ←

12:42:30 <oedipus> RM: have to address concerns brought up by PF and i18n

Roland Merrick: have to address concerns brought up by PF and i18n ←

12:42:39 <oedipus> SP: some SVG stuff as well?

Steven Pemberton: some SVG stuff as well? ←

12:42:55 <oedipus> SM: no last call comment from SVG in disposition/issue tracker

Shane McCarron: no last call comment from SVG in disposition/issue tracker ←

12:43:21 <oedipus> GJR: PF has a long standing clarification request about abiility to mix targetid and targetrole in the @order attribute

Gregory Rosmaita: PF has a long standing clarification request about abiility to mix targetid and targetrole in the @order attribute ←

12:43:34 <oedipus> GJR: PF wants to know if is permissible

Gregory Rosmaita: PF wants to know if is permissible ←

12:44:13 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:44:13 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:44:14 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:44:44 <oedipus> PFWG ACTION-211 - query XHTML2 and SVG on wheter mixing roles and ids with targetrole and targetid for @order is ok or problemmatic

PFWG ACTION-211 - query XHTML2 and SVG on wheter mixing roles and ids with targetrole and targetid for @order is ok or problemmatic ←

12:45:00 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/211

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/211 ←

12:45:05 <ShaneM> zakim, disconnect Steven

Shane McCarron: zakim, disconnect Steven ←

12:45:05 <Zakim> Steven is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: Steven is being disconnected ←

12:45:07 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

12:45:12 <ShaneM> we got your voice mail

Shane McCarron: we got your voice mail ←

12:45:46 <oedipus> SM: in ACCESS element description must have targetrole OR targetid specified - if not present, mapping ignored

Shane McCarron: in ACCESS element description must have targetrole OR targetid specified - if not present, mapping ignored ←

12:45:49 <Steven> sorry, problems with phoen here. Trying another

Steven Pemberton: sorry, problems with phoen here. Trying another ←

12:45:55 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:45:55 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:45:56 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:46:13 <oedipus> SM: not permitted in Access element - can have one or the other, can't have both

Shane McCarron: not permitted in Access element - can have one or the other, can't have both ←

12:46:49 <oedipus> GJR: will communicate that to PF

Gregory Rosmaita: will communicate that to PF ←

12:46:54 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

12:46:58 <Steven> oh no

Steven Pemberton: oh no ←

12:47:15 <oedipus> RM: user agent must only use targetid attribute values

Roland Merrick: user agent must only use targetid attribute values ←

12:47:22 <Roland> "If a targetid and a targetrole are both specified for an element, a user agent MUST only use the values from the the targetid attribute."

Roland Merrick: "If a targetid and a targetrole are both specified for an element, a user agent MUST only use the values from the the targetid attribute." ←

12:48:31 <oedipus> RM: have resolution from 2009-04-22 telecon to cycle Access Module back through Last Call

Roland Merrick: have resolution from 2009-04-22 telecon to cycle Access Module back through Last Call ←

12:48:46 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

12:49:08 <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIE

3. CURIEs

12:49:17 <oedipus> s/CURIE/CURIEs

12:49:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

12:49:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

12:49:39 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/Overview.html#curie

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/Overview.html#curie ←

12:49:45 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-curie-20090422

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-curie-20090422 ←

12:51:45 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

12:51:45 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

12:51:46 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

12:51:59 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

12:53:33 <Steven> Gregory: When I go to banking services, the forms are half declarative, and half procedural

Gregory Rosmaita: When I go to banking services, the forms are half declarative, and half procedural [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

12:53:47 <Steven> ... I need a role value to express this

Steven Pemberton: ... I need a role value to express this ←

12:54:06 <Steven> ... some people are worried this would hold up ARIA

Steven Pemberton: ... some people are worried this would hold up ARIA ←

12:54:33 <Steven> Shane: Add it to the role module!

Shane McCarron: Add it to the role module! [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

12:54:33 <oedipus> SM: nothing to do with ARIA - just define "form" in Role Module and be done with it

Shane McCarron: nothing to do with ARIA - just define "form" in Role Module and be done with it ←

12:54:36 <oedipus> GJR: fine with me

Gregory Rosmaita: fine with me ←

12:54:55 <oedipus> RM: return to ARIA later;

Roland Merrick: return to ARIA later; ←

12:55:13 <oedipus> SM: updated CURIE spec - removed xmlns stuff and produced new editor's draft

Shane McCarron: updated CURIE spec - removed xmlns stuff and produced new editor's draft ←

12:55:17 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-curie-20090422

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-curie-20090422 ←

12:55:56 <oedipus> SM: changes CURIE into a datatype with a defines mapping with value space

Shane McCarron: changes CURIE into a datatype with a defines mapping with value space ←

12:56:12 <oedipus> SM: does it poorly, but does the job - can't find a better way anyway

Shane McCarron: does it poorly, but does the job - can't find a better way anyway ←

12:56:29 <oedipus> SM: may get push-back from people who feel this change is too large

Shane McCarron: may get push-back from people who feel this change is too large ←

12:56:42 <oedipus> SM: already have 1 comment to that effect

Shane McCarron: already have 1 comment to that effect ←

12:58:07 <oedipus> MG: wasn't there an email that said up to host language to perform binding, so how can one have local CURIE processor

Markus Gylling: wasn't there an email that said up to host language to perform binding, so how can one have generic CURIE processor ←

12:58:09 <oedipus> SM: can't

Shane McCarron: can't ←

12:58:36 <markus> s/local/generic/

12:58:36 <oedipus> SM: always permitted alternate prefix mapping mechanisms

Shane McCarron: always permitted alternate prefix mapping mechanisms ←

12:58:52 <oedipus> SP: introduced to open hole to allow it to be inserted into HTML5?

Steven Pemberton: introduced to open hole to allow it to be inserted into HTML5? ←

12:58:59 <oedipus> SM: what?

Shane McCarron: what? ←

12:59:03 <oedipus> SP: leaving it to host language

Steven Pemberton: leaving it to host language ←

12:59:21 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0009.html

Roland Merrick: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0009.html ←

12:59:35 <oedipus> SM: no, another objection; didn't want to use xmlns as prefix mechanism

Shane McCarron: no, another objection; didn't want to use xmlns as prefix mechanism ←

12:59:49 <oedipus> MG: concerned about Role Module forcing HTML vocab to be default one

Markus Gylling: concerned about Role Module forcing HTML vocab to be default one ←

13:00:02 <oedipus> MG: ability to redefine vocab is separate but legitimate issue

Markus Gylling: ability to redefine vocab is separate but legitimate issue ←

13:00:25 <oedipus> SM: objection from a reviewer that didn't want to be forced to use xmlns - we thought that reasonable

Shane McCarron: objection from a reviewer that didn't want to be forced to use xmlns - we thought that reasonable ←

13:00:33 <oedipus> SP: strong argument against having to go to LC again

Steven Pemberton: strong argument against having to go to LC again ←

13:00:42 <markus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0081.html

Markus Gylling: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0081.html ←

13:00:50 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0012.html

Roland Merrick: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0012.html ←

13:00:59 <oedipus> SP: if reviewer still objects - can state can have 1 or the other, but not both - going back to LC won't solve that problem

Steven Pemberton: if reviewer still objects - can state can have 1 or the other, but not both - going back to LC won't solve that problem ←

13:01:06 <oedipus> SM: generic processor never practical

Shane McCarron: generic processor never practical ←

13:01:18 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:01:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:01:28 <Roland> Includes: " I don't see how you can get out of CR to PR, looking at your  implementation report. At this stage, I'm now asking Sean, my AC rep,   to oppose such a transition."

Scribe problem: the name 'Includes' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Includes: " I don't see how you can get out of CR to PR, looking at your implementation report. At this stage, I'm now asking Sean, my AC rep, to oppose such a transition." [ Scribe Assist by Roland Merrick ] ←

13:01:52 <oedipus> SM: should finish collecting tests into a "test suite"

Shane McCarron: should finish collecting tests into a "test suite" ←

13:02:06 <oedipus> SM: do we need a "test suite"?

Shane McCarron: do we need a "test suite"? ←

13:02:24 <oedipus> SM: for CURIEs?  think we have one anyway -- just point to RDFa and be done with it

Shane McCarron: for CURIEs? think we have one anyway -- just point to RDFa and be done with it ←

13:02:31 <oedipus> SM: could identify sub-set of relevant tests

Shane McCarron: could identify sub-set of relevant tests ←

13:02:50 <oedipus> RM: wasn't there a concern about a feature that RDFa doesn't use

Roland Merrick: wasn't there a concern about a feature that RDFa doesn't use ←

13:03:12 <oedipus> SM: datatype, which isn't a feature; a lot of CURIE features not used by RDFa -- allow alternate prefix mapping mechanisms, etc.

Shane McCarron: datatype, which isn't a feature; a lot of CURIE features not used by RDFa -- allow alternate prefix mapping mechanisms, etc. ←

13:03:20 <oedipus> SM: no default prefix

Shane McCarron: no default prefix ←

13:03:37 <oedipus> SM: if CURIE starts with a colon, don't define meaning for that in RDFa

Shane McCarron: if CURIE starts with a colon, don't define meaning for that in RDFa ←

13:03:48 <oedipus> SM: or a CURIE without a colon - in car, can't check

Shane McCarron: or a CURIE without a colon - in car, can't check ←

13:04:02 <oedipus> SM: MarkB had deemed those "reserved values"

Shane McCarron: MarkB had deemed those "reserved values" ←

13:04:25 <oedipus> MG: so what if CURIE does start with colon?

Markus Gylling: so what if CURIE does start with colon? ←

13:04:51 <oedipus> SP: prefix without colon - section 7 in RDFa "Module" defines how work with CURIEs with rules

Steven Pemberton: prefix without colon - section 7 in RDFa "Module" defines how work with CURIEs with rules ←

13:06:10 <oedipus> SP: can leave out prefix according to CURIE document

Steven Pemberton: can leave out prefix according to CURIE document ←

13:06:34 <oedipus> SM: should say "for each of those, host languages may define a rule or mechanism to establish default prefix"

Shane McCarron: should say "for each of those, host languages may define a rule or mechanism to establish default prefix" ←

13:07:02 <oedipus> SP: "when prefix omitted from CURIE" doesn't cover the colon question

Steven Pemberton: "when prefix omitted from CURIE" doesn't cover the colon question ←

13:07:36 <oedipus> SP: if just put colon in front, use default prefix

Steven Pemberton: if just put colon in front, use default prefix ←

13:07:38 <oedipus> SM: right

Shane McCarron: right ←

13:07:40 <oedipus> SP: got it

Steven Pemberton: got it ←

13:08:22 <oedipus> SM: agree that there are aspects of CURIE that RDFa does not use; isn't requirement that test suites be comprhensive, but all features of spec have to be used in 2 independent implementations

Shane McCarron: agree that there are aspects of CURIE that RDFa does not use; isn't requirement that test suites be comprhensive, but all features of spec have to be used in 2 independent implementations ←

13:08:34 <oedipus> SM: we need to decide if satisfied criteria

Shane McCarron: we need to decide if satisfied criteria ←

13:08:47 <oedipus> SM: but that doesn't necessarily require a test suite

Shane McCarron: but that doesn't necessarily require a test suite ←

13:09:34 <oedipus> SP: have usage in RDFa, OWL

Steven Pemberton: have usage in RDFa, OWL ←

13:09:55 <oedipus> RM: aren't talking about implementations of those languages are we?

Roland Merrick: aren't talking about implementations of those languages are we? ←

13:10:11 <oedipus> SP: can point to implementations of RDFa as implementation of CURIEs

Steven Pemberton: can point to implementations of RDFa as implementation of CURIEs ←

13:10:13 <oedipus> SM: agree

Shane McCarron: agree ←

13:10:17 <oedipus> SP: have a dozen of those

Steven Pemberton: have a dozen of those ←

13:10:50 <oedipus> RM: markup languages include: OWL

Roland Merrick: markup languages include: OWL ←

13:10:58 <oedipus> SM: OWL WG said won't use CURIEs

Shane McCarron: OWL WG said won't use CURIEs ←

13:11:12 <oedipus> RM: including OWL is a bit of a stretch then

Roland Merrick: including OWL is a bit of a stretch then ←

13:11:15 <oedipus> SM: yes

Shane McCarron: yes ←

13:11:44 <oedipus> SM: rolled their own rather than reuse CURIEs

Shane McCarron: rolled their own rather than reuse CURIEs ←

13:12:09 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/ ←

13:12:12 <oedipus> RM: Last Call WD - 20 April 2009 - should send feedback

Roland Merrick: Last Call WD - 20 April 2009 - should send feedback ←

13:12:34 <oedipus> SM: part of SemWeb activity, which is origins of CURIEs so makes sense for us to eat our own dog food

Shane McCarron: part of SemWeb activity, which is origins of CURIEs so makes sense for us to eat our own dog food ←

13:13:08 <oedipus> RM: strange that didn't request feedback specifically from us since working on similar mechanism

Roland Merrick: strange that didn't request feedback specifically from us since working on similar mechanism ←

13:13:26 <oedipus> RM: can we get comment from RDFa task force?

Roland Merrick: can we get comment from RDFa task force? ←

13:14:38 <oedipus> ACTION: Shane - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2

ACTION: Shane - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2 ←

13:14:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-76 - - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-30].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-76 - - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-30]. ←

13:14:40 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-overview-20090421/#Documentation_Roadmap

http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-overview-20090421/#Documentation_Roadmap ←

13:14:45 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Changes_Since_December_2008

http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Changes_Since_December_2008 ←

13:14:54 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw ←

13:15:00 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-overview-20090421/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-overview-20090421/ ←

13:15:03 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-primer-20090421/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-primer-20090421/ ←

13:15:07 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-new-features-20090421/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-new-features-20090421/ ←

13:15:11 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-quick-reference-20090421/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-quick-reference-20090421/ ←

13:15:28 <oedipus> RM: doesn't seem like a coordinated approach within SemWeb

Roland Merrick: doesn't seem like a coordinated approach within SemWeb ←

13:15:42 <oedipus> SM: CURIEs useful in SPRQL

Shane McCarron: CURIEs useful in SPRQL ←

13:16:00 <oedipus> SM: way to view CURIEs is as datatype with some requirements on host language

Shane McCarron: way to view CURIEs is as datatype with some requirements on host language ←

13:16:12 <oedipus> SP: just like a URI

Steven Pemberton: just like a URI ←

13:17:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL

http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL ←

13:17:22 <oedipus> OWL1: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-owl-features-20040210/

Scribe problem: the name 'OWL1' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown OWL1: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-owl-features-20040210/ ←

13:17:44 <alessio> zakim, code?

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, code? ←

13:17:44 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), alessio ←

13:18:15 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

13:18:24 <oedipus> RM: comment date is 12 May 2009 - need to be expeditious

Roland Merrick: comment date is 12 May 2009 - need to be expeditious ←

13:18:33 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-manchester-syntax/

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-manchester-syntax/ ←

13:18:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←

13:18:43 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

13:18:47 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/

Roland Merrick: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/ ←

13:18:48 <alessio> zakim, IPcaller is Alessio

Alessio Cartocci: zakim, IPcaller is Alessio ←

13:18:48 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Alessio; got it ←

13:18:57 <Roland> Comment By 12 May 2009

Roland Merrick: Comment By 12 May 2009 ←

13:18:58 <oedipus> SP: if don't use CURIEs what do they use?

Steven Pemberton: if don't use CURIEs what do they use? ←

13:19:05 <oedipus> RM: their own solution

Roland Merrick: their own solution ←

13:19:17 <oedipus> SM: which is VERY similar to CURIE, but with further restrictions

Shane McCarron: which is VERY similar to CURIE, but with further restrictions ←

13:19:36 <oedipus> SM: called "abreviated IRIs"

Shane McCarron: called "abreviated IRIs" ←

13:20:06 <oedipus> from W3 front page blurb: "OWL 2 (a compatible extension of OWL 1) consists of 13 documents (7 technical, 4 instructional, and 2 group Notes)"

from W3 front page blurb: "OWL 2 (a compatible extension of OWL 1) consists of 13 documents (7 technical, 4 instructional, and 2 group Notes)" ←

13:21:56 <oedipus> OWL comment action item: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/76

OWL comment action item: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/76 ←

13:22:33 <oedipus> SM: is DAISY using CURIEs?

Shane McCarron: is DAISY using CURIEs? ←

13:22:38 <oedipus> MG: yes

Markus Gylling: yes ←

13:23:20 <oedipus> GJR: on list for ARIA 2.0 - support for CURIEs to point to external resources

Gregory Rosmaita: on list for ARIA 2.0 - support for CURIEs to point to external resources ←

13:23:39 <Zakim> +ShaneM.a

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM.a ←

13:23:41 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

13:23:59 <oedipus> SP: can mention RIF - RIF core and RIF collection/dialect

Roland Merrick: can mention RIF - RIF core and RIF collection/dialect ←

13:24:16 <oedipus> s/SP: can mention RIF/RM: can mention RIF/

13:24:16 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here

Shane McCarron: zakim, who is here ←

13:24:16 <Zakim> ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?'

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?' ←

13:24:20 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?

Shane McCarron: zakim, who is here? ←

13:24:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM.a

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM.a ←

13:24:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, alessio, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ShaneM, alessio, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot ←

13:24:25 <oedipus> RM: other implementations?

Roland Merrick: other implementations? ←

13:24:31 <ShaneM> zakim, ShaneM.a is ShaneM

Shane McCarron: zakim, ShaneM.a is ShaneM ←

13:24:31 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it ←

13:24:38 <oedipus> GJR: ARIA use pending status of CURIE document

Gregory Rosmaita: ARIA use pending status of CURIE document ←

13:24:54 <oedipus> SM: Markus, have a pointer?

Shane McCarron: Markus, have a pointer? ←

13:25:02 <oedipus> MG: not public info yet

Markus Gylling: not public info yet ←

13:25:16 <oedipus> SM: need something to point to - could be email from you to public-xhtml2@w3.org

Shane McCarron: need something to point to - could be email from you to public-xhtml2@w3.org ←

13:25:42 <oedipus> RM: easiest to send email to public-xhtml2 with pointers to code in that mail

Roland Merrick: easiest to send email to public-xhtml2 with pointers to code in that mail ←

13:26:24 <oedipus> ACTION - Markus: send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2

ACTION - Markus: send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 ←

13:26:24 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - -

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - - ←

13:26:34 <oedipus> ACTION: Markus - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2

ACTION: Markus - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 ←

13:26:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 [on Markus Gylling - due 2009-04-30].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-77 - - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 [on Markus Gylling - due 2009-04-30]. ←

13:28:40 <oedipus> RESOLVED: request CURIE to be transitioned from CR to PR

RESOLVED: request CURIE to be transitioned from CR to PR ←

13:28:49 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:28:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:28:56 <oedipus> trackbot, pointer

trackbot, pointer ←

13:28:56 <trackbot> Sorry, oedipus, I don't understand 'trackbot, pointer'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, oedipus, I don't understand 'trackbot, pointer'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help ←

13:29:12 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

13:29:19 <oedipus> [ADJOURN UNTIL 1345h UTC]

[ADJOURN UNTIL 1345h UTC] ←

13:29:24 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop log

rrsagent, stop log ←

13:29:24 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←

13:29:27 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop

rrsagent, stop ←

13:37:34 <oedipus> ARIA 2.0 CURIE Support Issue Tracker entry: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/285

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

ARIA 2.0 CURIE Support Issue Tracker entry: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/285 ←

13:37:39 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:37:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:37:42 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop

rrsagent, stop ←

13:42:39 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

13:42:43 <ShaneM> it occured to me that xhtml 1.2, xhtml 2, and xhtml modularization 2 also all use CURIEs

Shane McCarron: it occured to me that xhtml 1.2, xhtml 2, and xhtml modularization 2 also all use CURIEs ←

13:42:59 <ShaneM> oh - and XHTML Role and XHTML Access and RDFa of course...

Shane McCarron: oh - and XHTML Role and XHTML Access and RDFa of course... ←

13:46:06 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/285

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/285 ←

13:46:38 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#roles

http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#roles ←

13:47:39 <oedipus> SM: does aria's roles allow CURIEs?

Shane McCarron: does aria's roles allow CURIEs? ←

13:48:42 <oedipus> "The applicable ARIA role is the concrete ARIA role whose name is matched by the first token in the sequence of tokens in the role attribute value which matches, on case-sensitive comparison, the name of any concrete ARIA role."

"The applicable ARIA role is the concrete ARIA role whose name is matched by the first token in the sequence of tokens in the role attribute value which matches, on case-sensitive comparison, the name of any concrete ARIA role." ←

13:48:42 <oedipus> "A concrete ARIA role is any of the role types described above except abstract roles (roles for which isAbstract is true) and the roles imported from the Role Module, that is those that are introduced in sections 4.4.6 and 4.4.7"

"A concrete ARIA role is any of the role types described above except abstract roles (roles for which isAbstract is true) and the roles imported from the Role Module, that is those that are introduced in sections 4.4.6 and 4.4.7" ←

13:49:17 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#host_general

http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#host_general ←

13:49:39 <alessio> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#marquee

Alessio Cartocci: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#marquee ←

13:49:55 <oedipus> An implementing host language will provide an attribute with the following characteristics:

An implementing host language will provide an attribute with the following characteristics: ←

13:49:55 <oedipus> * The attribute name MUST be role;

* The attribute name MUST be role; ←

13:49:55 <oedipus> * The attribute value MUST allow a space-separated sequence of whitespace-free substrings;

* The attribute value MUST allow a space-separated sequence of whitespace-free substrings; ←

13:49:55 <oedipus> * The appearance of the name literal of any concrete ARIA role (see section 7.3.2) as one of these substrings MUST NOT in and of itself make the attribute value illegal in the host-language syntax; and

* The appearance of the name literal of any concrete ARIA role (see section 7.3.2) as one of these substrings MUST NOT in and of itself make the attribute value illegal in the host-language syntax; and ←

13:49:55 <oedipus> * If the name literal of a concrete ARIA role appears as one of the substrings in the space-separated list in the role attribute, the role MUST be processed in accordance with this specification.

* If the name literal of a concrete ARIA role appears as one of the substrings in the space-separated list in the role attribute, the role MUST be processed in accordance with this specification. ←

13:51:11 <oedipus> SM: essentially CURIE-type mechanism by another name

Shane McCarron: essentially CURIE-type mechanism by another name ←

13:51:51 <oedipus> ARIA 1.0 "Following the Namespaces Recommendation [XML-NAMES], the namespace name for these attributes has no value. The names of these attributes do not have a prefix offset by a colon; in the terms of namespaces they are unprefixed attribute names. The ECMAScript binding of the DOM interface getAttributeNS for example, treats an empty string ("") as representing this condition, so that both getAttribute("aria-busy") and getAttributeNS("", "aria-busy") acces

ARIA 1.0 "Following the Namespaces Recommendation [XML-NAMES], the namespace name for these attributes has no value. The names of these attributes do not have a prefix offset by a colon; in the terms of namespaces they are unprefixed attribute names. The ECMAScript binding of the DOM interface getAttributeNS for example, treats an empty string ("") as representing this condition, so that both getAttribute("aria-busy") and getAttributeNS("", "aria-busy") acces ←

13:52:17 <oedipus> RM: request transition for CURIE, make LC comments to OWL2 to try and get consistency in SemWeb area

Roland Merrick: request transition for CURIE, make LC comments to OWL2 to try and get consistency in SemWeb area ←

13:52:31 <Steven> Yves, we are ready when you are

Steven Pemberton: Yves, we are ready when you are ←

13:52:44 <Steven> YvesS

Steven Pemberton: YvesS ←

13:52:47 <YvesS> ok, I'm getting there.

Scribe problem: the name 'YvesS' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown YvesS: ok, I'm getting there. ←

13:53:44 <Zakim> + +1.303.945.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.303.945.aaaa ←

13:53:54 <oedipus> shane, http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#Issue_7659_and__Issue_7656

shane, http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#Issue_7659_and__Issue_7656 ←

13:54:12 <oedipus> zakim, +1.303.945.aaaa is Yves_S

zakim, +1.303.945.aaaa is Yves_S ←

13:54:12 <Zakim> +Yves_S; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yves_S; got it ←

13:54:41 <oedipus> SM: should announce in RDFa implementation that DAISY uses RDFa

Shane McCarron: should announce in rdfa.info that DAISY uses RDFa ←

13:54:58 <oedipus> MG: will go public with first draft before summer - nothing to look at at this point

Markus Gylling: will go public with first draft before summer - nothing to look at at this point ←

13:55:11 <Steven> s/RDFa implementation/rdfa.info/

13:55:17 <oedipus> MG: except for source code repository

Markus Gylling: except for source code repository ←

13:55:34 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

13:55:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

13:56:02 <oedipus> TOPIC: ITS Integration Discussion with YvesS

4. ITS Integration Discussion with YvesS

13:56:15 <oedipus> yves, http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration

yves, http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration ←

13:56:50 <oedipus> background: the WG has identified at least 3 questions for Yves:

Scribe problem: the name 'background' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown background: the WG has identified at least 3 questions for Yves: ←

13:56:51 <oedipus>     *

* ←

13:56:51 <oedipus>           o does ITS allow XHTML to use its native SPAN element and Ruby module?

o does ITS allow XHTML to use its native SPAN element and Ruby module? ←

13:56:51 <oedipus>           o is external ITS support alone sufficient?

o is external ITS support alone sufficient? ←

13:56:51 <oedipus>           o can we use LINK with "rel" in HEAD?

o can we use LINK with "rel" in HEAD? ←

13:57:13 <oedipus> 1. does ITS allow XHTML to use its native SPAN element and Ruby module?

1. does ITS allow XHTML to use its native SPAN element and Ruby module? ←

13:57:13 <oedipus> 2. is external ITS support alone sufficient?

2. is external ITS support alone sufficient? ←

13:57:13 <oedipus> 3. can we use LINK with "rel" in HEAD?

3. can we use LINK with "rel" in HEAD? ←

13:57:42 <oedipus> Subtopic: Reuse of XHTML's Native SPAN element or ruby module?

4.1. Reuse of XHTML's Native SPAN element or ruby module?

13:58:01 <oedipus> SM: want to integrate ITS into XHTML2 - wanted to get info straight from source's mouth

Steven Pemberton: want to integrate ITS into XHTML2 - wanted to get info straight from source's mouth ←

13:58:23 <oedipus> SM: can we use native XHTML span to satisfy ITS?

Steven Pemberton: can we use native XHTML span to satisfy ITS? ←

13:58:26 <oedipus> Yves: correct

Scribe problem: the name 'Yves' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Yves: correct ←

13:58:31 <oedipus> SM: what about Ruby module

Shane McCarron: what about Ruby module ←

13:58:40 <oedipus> Yves: if aligned with ITS

Unknown Yves: if aligned with ITS ←

13:58:47 <oedipus> SM: ITS copied ours, so should be ok

Steven Pemberton: ITS copied ours, so should be ok ←

13:58:54 <oedipus> Subtopic: LINK versus XLink

4.2. LINK versus XLink

13:59:15 <oedipus> SM: can we use LINK with "rel" to link to ITS rules document

Steven Pemberton: can we use LINK with "rel" to link to ITS rules document ←

13:59:47 <oedipus> Yves: good question; as long as documented properly, shouldn't be an issue; don't see any conflict; processor just needs to know what to do with LINK

Unknown Yves: good question; as long as documented properly, shouldn't be an issue; don't see any conflict; processor just needs to know what to do with LINK ←

14:00:13 <oedipus> SM: have other groups identified value that want to use for "rel" attribute

Shane McCarron: have other groups identified value that want to use for "rel" attribute ←

14:00:28 <oedipus> s/SM: want to integrate/SP: want to integrate

14:00:40 <oedipus> s/SM: can we use native/SP: can we use native

14:00:54 <oedipus> s/SM: ITS copied ours/SP: ITS copied ours

14:01:08 <oedipus> s/SM: can we use LINK/SP: can we use LINK/

14:01:29 <oedipus> SM: want to have "rel" attribute that states HREF pointing at is an ITS rule

Shane McCarron: want to have "rel" attribute that states HREF pointing at is an ITS rule ←

14:01:49 <oedipus> Yves: XHTML2 WG should come up with value for "rel" attribute - we will follow your lead

Unknown Yves: XHTML2 WG should come up with value for "rel" attribute - we will follow your lead ←

14:02:00 <oedipus> SP: preference is to use a CURIE

Steven Pemberton: preference is to use a CURIE ←

14:02:03 <ShaneM> XHTML2 WG Gets to blaze the trail again!

Shane McCarron: XHTML2 WG Gets to blaze the trail again! ←

14:02:11 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#CURIE

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#CURIE ←

14:02:28 <oedipus> SP: since rulename is its:rules therefore rel="its:rules"

Steven Pemberton: since rulename is its:rules therefore rel="its:rules" ←

14:02:42 <oedipus> SP: any objection to using CURIE?

Steven Pemberton: any objection to using CURIE? ←

14:02:48 <oedipus> Yves: don't forsee problem

Unknown Yves: don't forsee problem ←

14:03:05 <oedipus> SM: is HTML5 group going to accomodate ITS?

Shane McCarron: is HTML5 group going to accomodate ITS? ←

14:03:09 <oedipus> Yves: yes

Unknown Yves: yes ←

14:03:11 <oedipus> SP: how?

Steven Pemberton: how? ←

14:03:16 <oedipus> Yves: explicit links

Unknown Yves: explicit links ←

14:03:23 <ShaneM> HTML5 would not like use to use a colon

Shane McCarron: HTML5 would not like use to use a colon ←

14:03:33 <oedipus> SP: if have to interoperate with their value, shouldn't be a CURIE, but keyword value

Steven Pemberton: if have to interoperate with their value, shouldn't be a CURIE, but keyword value ←

14:03:54 <ShaneM> rel="itsrules"

Shane McCarron: rel="itsrules" ←

14:03:59 <oedipus> SM: if that is part of target audience, i agree -- if try to use CURIE, have vocabulary prefix issue to deal with, so prefer rel="its:rules"

Shane McCarron: if that is part of target audience, i agree -- if try to use CURIE, have vocabulary prefix issue to deal with, so prefer rel="its:rules" ←

14:04:01 <ShaneM> rel="itsRules" maybe

Shane McCarron: rel="itsRules" maybe ←

14:04:29 <oedipus> SM: without colon - then HTML5 can't complain about colon

Shane McCarron: without colon - then HTML5 can't complain about colon ←

14:04:41 <oedipus> SM: want maximum number of people to take advantage of and use ITS

Shane McCarron: want maximum number of people to take advantage of and use ITS ←

14:04:47 <oedipus> SM: need consistent behavior model

Shane McCarron: need consistent behavior model ←

14:04:58 <oedipus> Subtopic: ITS Rule Versioning

4.3. ITS Rule Versioning

14:05:10 <oedipus> SP: do rules documents state version?

Steven Pemberton: do rules documents state version? ←

14:05:33 <oedipus> Yves: yes - describe way external tool can handle ITS document

Unknown Yves: yes - describe way external tool can handle ITS document ←

14:05:45 <oedipus> SP: not worried that LINK wouldn't say which version pointing to?

Steven Pemberton: not worried that LINK wouldn't say which version pointing to? ←

14:06:01 <oedipus> Yves: no - customized tools is end goal

Unknown Yves: no - customized tools is end goal ←

14:06:13 <oedipus> SP: don't want to have to change documents because of new version of ITS rules

Steven Pemberton: don't want to have to change documents because of new version of ITS rules ←

14:06:30 <oedipus> SP: if allow LINK rel="itsRules" is that sufficient?

Steven Pemberton: if allow LINK rel="itsRules" is that sufficient? ←

14:06:36 <oedipus> Yves: yes, provided can do the lookup

Unknown Yves: yes, provided can do the lookup ←

14:06:53 <oedipus> Subtopic: its:translate

4.4. its:translate

14:07:19 <oedipus> SP: want to use its:translate, but already have own "dir" - can just use "translate" attribute

Steven Pemberton: want to use its:translate, but already have own "dir" - can just use "translate" attribute ←

14:07:36 <oedipus> Yves: that is fine; map existing data categories/atttributes using ITS rules

Unknown Yves: that is fine; map existing data categories/atttributes using ITS rules ←

14:07:53 <oedipus> SP: in its rules, can say attribute "dir" is same as its "dir"

Steven Pemberton: in its rules, can say attribute "dir" is same as its "dir" ←

14:07:59 <ShaneM> how about <span translate="whatever" dir="ltr">lala</span> ?  instead of its:translate?

Shane McCarron: how about lala ? instead of its:translate? ←

14:08:12 <oedipus> Yves: yes

Unknown Yves: yes ←

14:08:36 <oedipus> SP: no problem importing its:translate - do you have preference if reuse yours or include a native XHTML translate attribute

Steven Pemberton: no problem importing its:translate - do you have preference if reuse yours or include a native XHTML translate attribute ←

14:08:51 <oedipus> Yves: use ITS

Unknown Yves: use ITS ←

14:09:03 <oedipus> SP: not allergic to foreign namespaces

Steven Pemberton: not allergic to foreign namespaces ←

14:09:51 <oedipus> Yves: can map it

Unknown Yves: can map it ←

14:10:04 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:10:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:10:17 <oedipus> SP: thank you VERY much Yves for your attendance

Steven Pemberton: thank you VERY much Yves for your attendance ←

14:10:37 <oedipus> Yves: HTML5 comment on question of value - suggest use "itsRules"

Unknown Yves: HTML5 comment on question of value - suggest use "itsRules" ←

14:10:52 <Zakim> -Yves_S

Scribe problem: the name 'Yves_S' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yves_S ←

14:10:53 <oedipus> Yves: will keep XHTML2 WG updated on negotiations with HTML WG

Unknown Yves: will keep XHTML2 WG updated on negotiations with HTML WG ←

14:11:29 <oedipus> SM: create ITS module for XHTML2 spec that indicates bringing in itsRules attribute add to Common or Text module?

Shane McCarron: create ITS module for XHTML2 spec that indicates bringing in itsRules attribute add to Common or Text module? ←

14:11:43 <oedipus> MG: inheritable, so that is reason to put in common

Markus Gylling: inheritable, so that is reason to put in common ←

14:11:59 <oedipus> RM: text module

Roland Merrick: text module ←

14:12:34 <oedipus> MG: 2 questions: ITS module and should it be in Common or Text Attribute collection

Markus Gylling: 2 questions: ITS module and should it be in Common or Text Attribute collection ←

14:12:47 <oedipus> MG: where to put it is the ultimate question

Markus Gylling: where to put it is the ultimate question ←

14:12:57 <oedipus> SM: if add to existing module, i'd add to i18n module

Shane McCarron: if add to existing module, i'd add to i18n module ←

14:13:08 <oedipus> [general agreement on wisdom of this]

[general agreement on wisdom of this] ←

14:13:20 <oedipus> SM: adds internationalization collection to the common collection

Shane McCarron: adds internationalization collection to the common collection ←

14:13:33 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-i18n.html#s_i18nmodule

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-i18n.html#s_i18nmodule ←

14:13:35 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

14:13:36 <oedipus> SP: translate attribute marked as an issue in that very section

Steven Pemberton: translate attribute marked as an issue in that very section ←

14:13:50 <oedipus> SM: for XHTML2, use i18n module

Shane McCarron: for XHTML2, use i18n module ←

14:13:51 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

14:13:51 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

14:13:53 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

14:14:10 <oedipus> SM: architectual question: should i18n module always include ITS in M12n 2.0

Shane McCarron: architectual question: should i18n module always include ITS in M12n 2.0 ←

14:14:28 <oedipus> SM: bring in rel="itsRule" and itsTranslate?

Shane McCarron: bring in rel="itsrules" and itsTranslate? ←

14:14:35 <oedipus> SM: i think the answer is yes

Shane McCarron: i think the answer is yes ←

14:14:43 <oedipus> RM: don't see reason to say "no" at the moment

Roland Merrick: don't see reason to say "no" at the moment ←

14:14:47 <Steven> itsrules

Steven Pemberton: itsrules ←

14:15:01 <oedipus> s/rel="itsRule"/rel="itsrules"

14:15:05 <oedipus> s/rel="itsRule"/rel="itsrules"/G

14:15:27 <oedipus> SP: why not put i18n and bi-directional text together in same module?

Steven Pemberton: why not put i18n and bi-directional text together in same module? ←

14:15:29 <oedipus> SM: and ruby?

Roland Merrick: and ruby?? ←

14:15:43 <oedipus> SP: no, ruby has own attribute collection - referenced by indirection

Steven Pemberton: no, ruby has own attribute collection - referenced by indirection ←

14:16:13 <oedipus> SM: not a bad suggestion to collapse into i18n module, but don't want to consume f2f time on that editorial issue

Shane McCarron: not a bad suggestion to collapse into i18n module, but don't want to consume f2f time on that editorial issue ←

14:16:37 <Steven> s/SM: and ruby/RM: and ruby?/

14:17:26 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

14:17:54 <oedipus> RM: ITS use in LINK element with appropriate "rel" value

Roland Merrick: ITS use in LINK element with appropriate "rel" value ←

14:18:17 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

14:18:17 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

14:18:19 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

14:18:32 <oedipus> RM: investigate collation of ITS, ruby and bi-directionality into an expanded i18n module

Roland Merrick: investigate collation of ITS, ruby and bi-directionality into an expanded i18n module ←

14:19:43 <oedipus> TOPIC: Issues 7659 (AnneVK comments)

5. Issues 7659 (AnneVK comments)

14:19:45 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7659;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7659;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:19:59 <oedipus> SM: issued at when stopped last time - hypertext attribute selection

Shane McCarron: issued at when stopped last time - hypertext attribute selection ←

14:20:13 <oedipus> Subtopic: hypertext attribute selection

5.1. hypertext attribute module

14:20:24 <oedipus> SM: Anne asks why are needed at all

Shane McCarron: Anne asks why are needed at all ←

14:20:59 <oedipus> s/hypertext attribute selection/hypertext attribute module

14:21:12 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:21:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:22:05 <oedipus> SP: hreflang doesn't solve problem - if multiple language versions of link and send dutch link to you who use russian, should get russian version

Steven Pemberton: hreflang doesn't solve problem - if multiple language versions of link and send dutch link to you who use russian, should get russian version ←

14:22:28 <oedipus> SP: hreflang not a new facilllity; always in HTML4

Steven Pemberton: hreflang not a new facilllity; always in HTML4 ←

14:22:37 <oedipus> SP: problem - doesn't do anything - no better than comment

Steven Pemberton: problem - doesn't do anything - no better than comment ←

14:22:57 <oedipus> SP: if claim it is dutch than it better be "nl" - if don't want to do, then don't

Steven Pemberton: if claim it is dutch than it better be "nl" - if don't want to do, then don't ←

14:23:26 <oedipus> GJR: hreflang is useful for accessibility because it prepares the Assitive techonology to make the appropriate natural language switch

Gregory Rosmaita: hreflang is useful for accessibility because it prepares the Assitive techonology to make the appropriate natural language switch ←

14:24:06 <oedipus> GJR: hreflang identifies natural language for natural language processing

Gregory Rosmaita: hreflang identifies natural language for natural language processing ←

14:24:38 <oedipus> SP: 2 problems: 1. not garunteed to be interoperable (will break if move URLs if web server doesn't use same method of specifying URLs

Steven Pemberton: 2 problems: 1. not garunteed to be interoperable (will break if move URLs if web server doesn't use same method of specifying URLs ←

14:25:06 <oedipus> SP: 2. no way to garuntee that is possible - know at least 1 server where one can have  several resources linked via URL but not to sub-resources

Steven Pemberton: 2. no way to garuntee that is possible - know at least 1 server where one can have several resources linked via URL but not to sub-resources ←

14:25:14 <oedipus> RM: content creator's choice whether or not to do that

Roland Merrick: content creator's choice whether or not to do that ←

14:25:29 <oedipus> RM: could make them available as choice or through content-negotiation

Roland Merrick: could make them available as choice or through content-negotiation ←

14:25:48 <oedipus> SP: hreflang doesn't break content negotiation

Steven Pemberton: hreflang doesn't break content negotiation ←

14:26:12 <oedipus> SP: hreflang offers extra functionality - if don't want to use, don't have to, but is useful functionality for some use cases

Steven Pemberton: hreflang offers extra functionality - if don't want to use, don't have to, but is useful functionality for some use cases ←

14:27:02 <oedipus> SP: example: if have on homepage links to different versions of homepage, this allows me to check if they are really there -- allows one to check links to ensure that what is supposed to be the dutch version is the dutch version

Steven Pemberton: example: if have on homepage links to different versions of homepage, this allows me to check if they are really there -- allows one to check links to ensure that what is supposed to be the dutch version is the dutch version ←

14:27:46 <oedipus> GJR: also good trigger to switch natural langauge for TTS, charsets for screen magnification, especially in absence of natural language declaration in document being referred to

Gregory Rosmaita: also good trigger to switch natural langauge for TTS, charsets for screen magnification, especially in absence of natural language declaration in document being referred to ←

14:28:03 <oedipus> RM: document benefits and extra functionality

Roland Merrick: document benefits and extra functionality ←

14:28:08 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-hyperAttributes.html#s_hyperAttributesmodule

Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-hyperAttributes.html#s_hyperAttributesmodule ←

14:28:42 <oedipus> "This attribute specifies the primary language of the resource designated by href. At its most general, it is a comma-separated list of language ranges with optional accept parameters, as defined in section 14.4 of [RFC2616] as the field value of the Accept-Language request header."

"This attribute specifies the primary language of the resource designated by href. At its most general, it is a comma-separated list of language ranges with optional accept parameters, as defined in section 14.4 of [RFC2616] as the field value of the Accept-Language request header." ←

14:28:42 <oedipus> "In its simplest case, this is just a language code, such as "nl", but it may also contain variant specifications such as "en-gb"."

"In its simplest case, this is just a language code, such as "nl", but it may also contain variant specifications such as "en-gb"." ←

14:29:18 <oedipus> RM: doesn't address why would use in concert with content negotiation

Roland Merrick: doesn't address why would use in concert with content negotiation ←

14:29:25 <oedipus> SP: current text isn't sufficient?

Steven Pemberton: current text isn't sufficient? ←

14:29:42 <oedipus> RM: don't think we cover value statement very well as currently written

Roland Merrick: don't think we cover value statement very well as currently written ←

14:29:59 <oedipus> example from document:

example from document: ←

14:30:06 <oedipus> <p href="http://www.w3.org/2003/06/semantictour-pressrelease"

<p href="http://www.w3.org/2003/06/semantictour-pressrelease" ←

14:30:06 <oedipus>    hreflang="fr">

hreflang="fr"> ←

14:30:06 <oedipus>    The press release in French

The press release in French ←

14:30:06 <oedipus> </p>

←

14:30:24 <oedipus> RM: no complimentary documents that goes with XHTML2 that addresses how to use these things together

Roland Merrick: no complimentary documents that goes with XHTML2 that addresses how to use these things together ←

14:30:34 <oedipus> RM: will lose this if don't put into document

Roland Merrick: will lose this if don't put into document ←

14:31:05 <oedipus> GJR: i have an action item to create a wiki page for Role BP; i could do the same for hreflang and content negotiation

Gregory Rosmaita: i have an action item to create a wiki page for Role BP; i could do the same for hreflang and content negotiation ←

14:31:21 <oedipus> RM: need "motivating examples"

Roland Merrick: need "motivating examples" ←

14:31:56 <oedipus> SP: could put same example with <a hreflang="nl">Press Release in Dutch</a>

Steven Pemberton: could put same example with <a hreflang="nl">Press Release in Dutch</a> ←

14:32:22 <oedipus> GJR: wouldn't you want <a hreflang="nl" xml:lang="nl">Dutch for "this page in dutch</a>

Gregory Rosmaita: wouldn't you want <a hreflang="nl" xml:lang="nl">Dutch for "this page in dutch</a> ←

14:32:45 <oedipus> RM: content negotiation methods - match against what UAs do today

Roland Merrick: content negotiation methods - match against what UAs do today ←

14:33:02 <oedipus> SP: if want to say this is version in french, so available to someone who wants french

Steven Pemberton: if want to say this is version in french, so available to someone who wants french ←

14:33:30 <oedipus> RM: if all want to do is get what matches browser, don't have to worry; if want to give user option to choose language, then use hreflang

Roland Merrick: if all want to do is get what matches browser, don't have to worry; if want to give user option to choose language, then use hreflang ←

14:34:23 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples

ACTION: Gregory - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples ←

14:34:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-78 - - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-30].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-78 - - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-30]. ←

14:35:53 <oedipus> GJR: make sure to address xml:lang in conjunction with hreflang and content negotiation

Gregory Rosmaita: make sure to address xml:lang in conjunction with hreflang and content negotiation ←

14:36:11 <oedipus> RM: done on hreflang for now?

Roland Merrick: done on hreflang for now? ←

14:36:25 <oedipus> SP: brief comment at end - target is CSS issue with pointer to old spec

Steven Pemberton: brief comment at end - target is CSS issue with pointer to old spec ←

14:36:30 <oedipus> SM: answer is "no it is not"

Shane McCarron: answer is "no it is not" ←

14:36:32 <oedipus> SP: right

Steven Pemberton: right ←

14:36:53 <oedipus> SM: bi-directional text verbiage has typo i need to correct

Shane McCarron: bi-directional text verbiage has typo i need to correct ←

14:37:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml-vocab-20090423.html

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml-vocab-20090423.html ←

14:37:17 <oedipus> Subtopic: Edit

5.2. Edit

14:37:33 <oedipus> SM: Quote element doesn't have default presentation, whereas "edit" has one

Shane McCarron: Quote element doesn't have default presentation, whereas "edit" has one ←

14:38:14 <oedipus> RM: comment from DocBook about not having default presentation in quote

Roland Merrick: comment from DocBook about not having default presentation in quote ←

14:38:29 <oedipus> SP: reping CSS WG - ascertain if changed mind

Steven Pemberton: reping CSS WG - ascertain if changed mind ←

14:38:53 <oedipus> RM: want to have consistency for content creators across languages

Roland Merrick: want to have consistency for content creators across languages ←

14:39:07 <oedipus> SP: can undo decision - is in current form due to comment and request

Steven Pemberton: can undo decision - is in current form due to comment and request ←

14:39:19 <oedipus> SM: have to revisit the issue anyway

Shane McCarron: have to revisit the issue anyway ←

14:39:28 <oedipus> Subtopic: Embedding Attribute Module and @type

5.3. Embedding Attribute Module and @type

14:39:37 <oedipus> SM: question is why need @type at all

Shane McCarron: question is why need @type at all ←

14:40:00 <oedipus> SM: purpose of @type is so i can indicate to UA what types of resources are available that i want to use for my document

Shane McCarron: purpose of @type is so i can indicate to UA what types of resources are available that i want to use for my document ←

14:40:19 <oedipus> SM: UA should then determine intersection of what author wants and internal capabilities and serve the "best" one

Shane McCarron: UA should then determine intersection of what author wants and internal capabilities and serve the "best" one ←

14:40:38 <oedipus> SM: author in control of document and resources therein

Shane McCarron: author in control of document and resources therein ←

14:41:03 <oedipus> RM: what about things embedded from elsewhere?  don't necesarily have control over embedded content

Roland Merrick: what about things embedded from elsewhere? don't necesarily have control over embedded content ←

14:41:10 <oedipus> SP: always been in HTML

Steven Pemberton: always been in HTML ←

14:41:16 <oedipus> RM: don't need old baggage

Roland Merrick: don't need old baggage ←

14:41:30 <oedipus> SM: some old baggage is useful and we have tightened usage

Shane McCarron: some old baggage is useful and we have tightened usage ←

14:42:20 <oedipus> SM: @type allows me to serve image in SVG, PNG, JPG, and GIF - as author, want cascade: SVG, PNG, JPG or GIF depending on UA capabilities

Shane McCarron: @type allows me to serve image in SVG, PNG, JPG, and GIF - as author, want cascade: SVG, PNG, JPG or GIF depending on UA capabilities ←

14:42:39 <oedipus> SP: if don't want to use it, don't use it, full stop

Steven Pemberton: if don't want to use it, don't use it, full stop ←

14:42:57 <oedipus> SP: allows for more author control - increases author's power, doesn't decrease it

Steven Pemberton: allows for more author control - increases author's power, doesn't decrease it ←

14:43:10 <oedipus> SM: what should http-accept header report

Shane McCarron: what should http-accept header report ←

14:43:24 <alessio> provides a more stable object fallback

Alessio Cartocci: provides a more stable object fallback ←

14:44:12 <oedipus> RM: don't have image module

Roland Merrick: don't have image module ←

14:44:14 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/xhtml-m12n-2/mod-csImgMap.html#s_csImgMapmodule

Shane McCarron: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/xhtml-m12n-2/mod-csImgMap.html#s_csImgMapmodule ←

14:44:25 <oedipus> RM: first example uses NL - ok

Roland Merrick: first example uses NL - ok ←

14:44:42 <oedipus> SP: why arent' attributes applied directly to a list

Steven Pemberton: why arent' attributes applied directly to a list ←

14:44:58 <oedipus> SM: why do you need detail is comment

Shane McCarron: why do you need detail is comment ←

14:45:15 <oedipus> SM: if change to UL should solve problem

Shane McCarron: if change to UL should solve problem ←

14:45:25 <oedipus> SP: <ul role="navigation"> right?

Steven Pemberton: <ul role="navigation"> right? ←

14:45:27 <oedipus> SM: sure

Shane McCarron: sure ←

14:45:43 <oedipus> SM: don't call "LABEL" but "CAPTION"

Shane McCarron: don't call "LABEL" but "CAPTION" ←

14:45:52 <oedipus> MG: no LABEL element anymore

Markus Gylling: no LABEL element anymore ←

14:46:05 <oedipus> GJR: suggested use of LEGEND instead of CAPTION

Gregory Rosmaita: suggested use of LEGEND instead of CAPTION ←

14:46:18 <oedipus> SM: TITLE or CAPTION - different semantics

Shane McCarron: TITLE or CAPTION - different semantics ←

14:47:13 <oedipus> GJR: use old fieldset, legend. label model, freed from forms - irrelevant due to XForms module, so reuse LEGEND as generic labeller

Gregory Rosmaita: use old fieldset, legend. label model, freed from forms - irrelevant due to XForms module, so reuse LEGEND as generic labeller ←

14:47:21 <oedipus> Subtopic: Why Need OBJECT?

5.4. Why Need OBJECT?

14:47:29 <oedipus> SM: something has to take PARAM

Shane McCarron: something has to take PARAM ←

14:47:51 <oedipus> GJR: trying to get HTML5 to consider PARAM for EACH media-specific element

Gregory Rosmaita: trying to get HTML5 to consider PARAM for EACH media-specific element ←

14:48:12 <oedipus> Subtopic: XHTML Scripting Module

5.5. XHTML Scripting Module

14:48:41 <oedipus> SM: complaint that it was being dropped; we have decided to chop XML Events into event, handler and script

Shane McCarron: complaint that it was being dropped; we have decided to chop XML Events into event, handler and script ←

14:49:26 <oedipus> Subtopic: XForms

5.6. XForms

14:49:43 <oedipus> SM: don't understand "useable by everyone" forms instead

Shane McCarron: don't understand "useable by everyone" forms instead ←

14:49:51 <oedipus> SP: send pointer to XForms in HTML tutorial

Steven Pemberton: send pointer to XForms in HTML tutorial ←

14:51:48 <oedipus> TOPIC: Issue-7656, Comments from Neil Katin

6. ISSUE-7656, Comments from Neil Katin

14:52:03 <oedipus> RM: some of these complaints/comments have been obsoleted by events

Roland Merrick: some of these complaints/comments have been obsoleted by events ←

14:52:10 <oedipus> SM: most of them

Shane McCarron: most of them ←

14:52:18 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7656;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7656;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

14:52:42 <oedipus> Subtopic: Example for hreftype

6.1. Example for hreftype

14:52:51 <oedipus> SM: will check to ensure that hreftype example is correct

Shane McCarron: will check to ensure that hreftype example is correct ←

14:53:05 <oedipus> Subtopic: Definition of Access

6.2. Definition of Access

14:53:13 <oedipus> SM: editorial complaint

Shane McCarron: editorial complaint ←

14:53:25 <oedipus> RM: shouldn't be problem - ripped out Access and made it its own module

Roland Merrick: shouldn't be problem - ripped out Access and made it its own module ←

14:53:28 <oedipus> SM: right

Shane McCarron: right ←

14:54:15 <oedipus> Subtopic: bidi text

6.3. bidi text

14:54:20 <oedipus> comment: "(bidi text) there are two section definitions that are malformed: 15.1.3.15.1.1. Inheritance of text direction information and 15.1.4. 15.1.2. The effect of style sheets on bidirectionality"

Scribe problem: the name 'comment' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown comment: "(bidi text) there are two section definitions that are malformed: 15.1.3.15.1.1. Inheritance of text direction information and 15.1.4. 15.1.2. The effect of style sheets on bidirectionality" ←

14:54:40 <oedipus> SP: in HTML4 could only say deleted somewhere and inserted somewhere else -

Steven Pemberton: in HTML4 could only say deleted somewhere and inserted somewhere else - ←

14:54:47 <oedipus> q+

q+ ←

14:55:07 <oedipus> GJR: proposed a for/id relationship for INS and DEL in Editing Module

Gregory Rosmaita: proposed a for/id relationship for INS and DEL in Editing Module ←

14:55:57 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

14:55:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

14:56:46 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/ModificationMarkup

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/ModificationMarkup ←

14:56:59 <oedipus> attributes: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/ModificationMarkup#Attributes_Necessary_for_Modification_Element.28s.29

Scribe problem: the name 'attributes' does not match any of the 23 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Christina Bottomley Elias Torres Gerrie Shults Gregory Rosmaita John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Markus Gylling Masataka Yakura Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown attributes: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/ModificationMarkup#Attributes_Necessary_for_Modification_Element.28s.29 ←

14:57:44 <oedipus> GJR: lingering question: "is <DEL id="blah1">dig</DEL> <INS for="blah1">dog</INS> best practice, or is d<DEL id="blah1">i</DEL><INS for="blah1">o</INS>g permissible, and is it any of our business? "

Gregory Rosmaita: lingering question: "is <DEL id="blah1">dig</DEL> <INS for="blah1">dog</INS> best practice, or is d<DEL id="blah1">i</DEL><INS for="blah1">o</INS>g permissible, and is it any of our business? " ←

14:58:25 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

created using i/Roland: I find/ScribeNick+ Steven

ScribeNick+ Steven ←

14:58:44 <Steven> Roland: I find it hard to get excited about this

Roland Merrick: I find it hard to get excited about this [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

14:59:41 <Steven> Roland: Further down it shows a reply, and mentions the edit="moved"

Roland Merrick: Further down it shows a reply, and mentions the edit="moved" [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

15:00:40 <Steven> Roland: Are there any more of these issues?

Roland Merrick: Are there any more of these issues? [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

15:00:44 <Steven> Shane: Lots

Shane McCarron: Lots [ Scribe Assist by Steven Pemberton ] ←

15:01:08 <Steven> ... such as 82 issues in "incoming"

Steven Pemberton: ... such as 82 issues in "incoming" ←

15:01:19 <oedipus> i/Roland: I find/ScribeNick+ Steven

15:01:51 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: +Gregory_Rosmaita ←

15:01:58 <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

15:02:06 <oedipus> SP: meant to be new working group when renamed XHTML2

Steven Pemberton: meant to be new working group when renamed XHTML2 ←

15:02:15 <oedipus> SP: HTML5 WG didn't take over our XML issues

Steven Pemberton: HTML5 WG didn't take over our HTML issues ←

15:02:27 <oedipus> SP: we (XHTML2) retained issues from old working group

Steven Pemberton: we (XHTML2) retained issues from old working group ←

15:02:41 <oedipus> SP: done our best to work with them, go to LC, and let them comment on that

Steven Pemberton: done our best to work with them, go to LC, and let them comment on that ←

15:02:54 <oedipus> RM: should delete or mark incomplete in issues list

Roland Merrick: should delete or mark incomplete in issues list ←

15:03:05 <oedipus> RM: can close one-by-one, but need to do SOMETHING with them

Roland Merrick: can close one-by-one, but need to do SOMETHING with them ←

15:03:06 <Steven> s/XML/HTML/

15:03:11 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:03:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

15:03:24 <oedipus> RM: new ones since group re-chartered?

Roland Merrick: new ones since group re-chartered? ←

15:03:37 <oedipus> SP: would be in incoming bucket

Steven Pemberton: would be in incoming bucket ←

15:03:44 <oedipus> SM: only 1 issue since rechartered

Shane McCarron: only 1 issue since rechartered ←

15:03:56 <oedipus> SM: about editorial error in CURIE spec which i think i fixed

Shane McCarron: about editorial error in CURIE spec which i think i fixed ←

15:04:08 <oedipus> RM: comments on XML Events get to issue tracker?

Roland Merrick: comments on XML Events get to issue tracker? ←

15:04:48 <oedipus> old issue tracking system on XML Events: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XMLEvents?user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

old issue tracking system on XML Events: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XMLEvents?user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 ←

15:05:26 <oedipus> shane's tracker "XMLEvents has 6 messages"

shane's tracker "XMLEvents has 6 messages" ←

15:07:03 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008JanMar/0015.html

Roland Merrick: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008JanMar/0015.html ←

15:07:26 <oedipus> Errata for XML Events: An Events Syntax for XML

Errata for XML Events: An Events Syntax for XML ←

15:07:50 <oedipus> comment: In "B. Schema Implementation" the third sentence reads:  "It is divided into an attributes module and an element module for the XML Events module defined in this Proposed Recommendation."  This should read:  "It is divided into an attributes module and an element module for the XML Events module defined in this Recommendation."

Unknown comment: In "B. Schema Implementation" the third sentence reads: "It is divided into an attributes module and an element module for the XML Events module defined in this Proposed Recommendation." This should read: "It is divided into an attributes module and an element module for the XML Events module defined in this Recommendation." ←

15:08:20 <oedipus> SM: don't remember seeing it in issue tracker, but can put it there

Shane McCarron: don't remember seeing it in issue tracker, but can put it there ←

15:08:46 <oedipus> SM: didn't imagine us doing an update to XML Events 1

Shane McCarron: didn't imagine us doing an update to XML Events 1 ←

15:08:58 <oedipus> RM: should we ever need to, this is something we should address at same time

Roland Merrick: should we ever need to, this is something we should address at same time ←

15:09:21 <oedipus> RM: should keep track in relation to XML Events 1 - if do need to PER XML Events 1, then would address all errata on that document

Roland Merrick: should keep track in relation to XML Events 1 - if do need to PER XML Events 1, then would address all errata on that document ←

15:09:31 <oedipus> SM: i'll get it into the tracker

Shane McCarron: i'll get it into the tracker ←

15:10:02 <oedipus> Subtopic: How Do We Make the Issue Tracking System Useful?

6.4. How Do We Make the Issue Tracking System Useful?

15:10:15 <oedipus> SM: use issue tracker effectively for new work (last call comments, etc.)

Shane McCarron: use issue tracker effectively for new work (last call comments, etc.) ←

15:10:33 <oedipus> SM: in the past, have tracked comments from last call or PR review - works to extent we use it

Shane McCarron: in the past, have tracked comments from last call or PR review - works to extent we use it ←

15:10:47 <oedipus> SM: do have a lot of old baggage and unprocessed stuff in old tracking system

Shane McCarron: do have a lot of old baggage and unprocessed stuff in old tracking system ←

15:11:01 <oedipus> SM: can take all of unprocessed stuff and mark obsolete

Shane McCarron: can take all of unprocessed stuff and mark obsolete ←

15:11:24 <oedipus> RM: proposed resolution: All items in issue tracking system dated prior to new charter be closed as no longer relevant

Roland Merrick: proposed resolution: All items in issue tracking system dated prior to new charter be closed as no longer relevant ←

15:11:39 <oedipus> SM: will that fly?

Shane McCarron: will that fly? ←

15:12:17 <oedipus> SP: can argue it reasonably; old group's charter ended and new group chartered (XHTML2) - did best to process as many comments from previous group as could and are now staring tracking afresh

Steven Pemberton: can argue it reasonably; old group's charter ended and new group chartered (XHTML2) - did best to process as many comments from previous group as could and are now staring tracking afresh ←

15:12:32 <oedipus> SP: TBL did say this is going to be a new group with a new charter and new chair

Steven Pemberton: TBL did say this is going to be a new group with a new charter and new chair ←

15:12:50 <oedipus> SM: going to create a bucket called "old" -- everything that isn't in a certain state will be included

Shane McCarron: going to create a bucket called "old" -- everything that isn't in a certain state will be included ←

15:13:01 <oedipus> SM: if closed, leave where is - already dealt with and useful for pointers

Shane McCarron: if closed, leave where is - already dealt with and useful for pointers ←

15:13:17 <oedipus> SM: if implemented, done it, but haven't reissued public draft since effecting changes

Shane McCarron: if implemented, done it, but haven't reissued public draft since effecting changes ←

15:13:30 <oedipus> SM: if marked "suspended" we were holding for later processing

Shane McCarron: if marked "suspended" we were holding for later processing ←

15:13:56 <oedipus> SM: anything not in "suspended", "implemented" or "closed" will be obsoleted

Shane McCarron: anything not in "suspended", "implemented" or "closed" will be obsoleted ←

15:14:07 <oedipus> RM: charter start date?

Roland Merrick: charter start date? ←

15:14:20 <oedipus> RM: end date 31 December 2009

Roland Merrick: end date 31 December 2009 ←

15:15:02 <oedipus> SP: date of charter 2007-02-02

Steven Pemberton: date of charter 2007-02-02 ←

15:15:18 <oedipus> SM: anything before 2007?

Shane McCarron: anything before 2007? ←

15:15:20 <oedipus> SP: yes

Steven Pemberton: yes ←

15:15:22 <oedipus> RM: yes

Roland Merrick: yes ←

15:15:24 <oedipus> GJR: yes

Gregory Rosmaita: yes ←

15:15:26 <oedipus> AC: yes

Alessio Cartocci: yes ←

15:16:29 <oedipus> SM: should we inform users that comment tabled, please re-review and re-submit if necessary

Shane McCarron: should we inform users that comment tabled, please re-review and re-submit if necessary ←

15:16:45 <oedipus> RM: let's ascertain how many there are to deal with

Roland Merrick: let's ascertain how many there are to deal with ←

15:16:50 <oedipus> SP: [counting]

Steven Pemberton: [counting] ←

15:18:05 <oedipus> proposed RESOLVED: All items in issue tracker dated prior to issuance of new XHTML2 Charter (2007-02) will be closed as no longer relevant

proposed RESOLVED: All items in issue tracker dated prior to issuance of new XHTML2 Charter (2007-02) will be closed as no longer relevant ←

15:19:00 <oedipus> SM: more general question: 259 messages that are "open", but 135 are in the "trash" - spam not yet marked as closed

Shane McCarron: more general question: 259 messages that are "open", but 135 are in the "trash" - spam not yet marked as closed ←

15:22:22 <oedipus> SM: rather than doing in "real time" will go through and remove the extraneous "crust"

Shane McCarron: rather than doing in "real time" will go through and remove the extraneous "crust" ←

15:22:35 <oedipus> SP: if only 80, can do quick pass over them

Steven Pemberton: if only 80, can do quick pass over them ←

15:22:45 <oedipus> SP: can we chop it down even further?

Steven Pemberton: can we chop it down even further? ←

15:22:58 <oedipus> RM: shane, take a pass, post a list, and will revisit if we need resolution

Roland Merrick: shane, take a pass, post a list, and will revisit if we need resolution ←

15:23:37 <oedipus> ACTION: Shane - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition

ACTION: Shane - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition ←

15:23:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-79 - - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-30].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-79 - - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-30]. ←

15:23:44 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:23:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

15:25:55 <oedipus> TOPIC: D - a single element to indicate dialogue

7. D - a single element to indicate dialogue

15:25:56 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

15:26:13 <ShaneM> brb

Shane McCarron: brb ←

15:26:40 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

15:26:57 <oedipus> SP: elements for structural portions of document; semantics indicated by attributes (why added role)

Steven Pemberton: elements for structural portions of document; semantics indicated by attributes (why added role) ←

15:27:07 <oedipus> SP: in case of D, looks like adding semantics

Steven Pemberton: in case of D, looks like adding semantics ←

15:27:15 <oedipus> SP: can't we use a role="dialogue"

Steven Pemberton: can't we use a role="dialogue" ←

15:27:25 <oedipus> GJR: would role="dialogue" be applied to Q

Gregory Rosmaita: would role="dialogue" be applied to Q ←

15:27:45 <Tina> If we are not indicating semantics with elements, then why are we indicating semantics with /some/ elements?

Tina Holmboe: If we are not indicating semantics with elements, then why are we indicating semantics with /some/ elements? ←

15:28:15 <oedipus> GJR: Q inappropriate because when including dialogue, one is not quoting, but speaking in the character's voice

Gregory Rosmaita: Q inappropriate because when including dialogue, one is not quoting, but speaking in the character's voice ←

15:28:34 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/D

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/D ←

15:28:58 <oedipus> "3. D provides a clear and necessary semantic marker in a generic/foundational declarative markup language -- it provides a declarative means of identifying text as dialogue, rather than leaving indications of dialogue embedded in prose to be indicated with "naked" quotation marks, character entity values or unicode values such as " or u0022 or u0027, and so on) nor can one rely on extremely spotty implementation of the :before and :after pseudo-elements to g

"3. D provides a clear and necessary semantic marker in a generic/foundational declarative markup language -- it provides a declarative means of identifying text as dialogue, rather than leaving indications of dialogue embedded in prose to be indicated with "naked" quotation marks, character entity values or unicode values such as " or u0022 or u0027, and so on) nor can one rely on extremely spotty implementation of the :before and :after pseudo-elements to g ←

15:29:26 <oedipus> RM: dialogue in my understanding involves multiple parties

Roland Merrick: dialogue in my understanding involves multiple parties ←

15:29:35 <oedipus> GJR: monolog would be subsumed into dialogue

Gregory Rosmaita: monolog would be subsumed into dialogue ←

15:32:05 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/D

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/D ←

15:32:09 <alessio> ...what about d role="monolog"?

Alessio Cartocci: ...what about d role="monolog"? ←

15:32:31 <oedipus> RM: could we make this a property of P or SPAN?

Roland Merrick: could we make this a property of P or SPAN? ←

15:32:39 <oedipus> MG: yep

Markus Gylling: yep ←

15:33:09 <oedipus> what about this use case:

what about this use case: ←

15:33:10 <oedipus> <d>

<d> ←

15:33:10 <oedipus> <dl>

<dl> ←

15:33:10 <oedipus> <dt>Shopkeeper</dt>

<dt>Shopkeeper</dt> ←

15:33:10 <oedipus> <dd><nd>[obviously lying]</nd> Sorry, we're just closing for lunch</dd>

<dd><nd>[obviously lying]</nd> Sorry, we're just closing for lunch</dd> ←

15:33:10 <oedipus> </dl>

</dl> ←

15:33:12 <oedipus> </d>

</d> ←

15:33:43 <Tina> Can't that be solved by pulling in another namespace specifically created for, say, plays etc?

Tina Holmboe: Can't that be solved by pulling in another namespace specifically created for, say, plays etc? ←

15:33:50 <oedipus> "since there are many different contexts in which D is an appropriate element/container, a dialogue element demands a role or type attribute, in order to enable differentiation between types of dialogue; a very preliminary list of predefined role values for D follows: conversation, dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the element is used to distinguish dialogue from other types of content, transcript "

"since there are many different contexts in which D is an appropriate element/container, a dialogue element demands a role or type attribute, in order to enable differentiation between types of dialogue; a very preliminary list of predefined role values for D follows: conversation, dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the element is used to distinguish dialogue from other types of content, transcript " ←

15:34:12 <oedipus> SM: not convinced D/dialogue is a semantic structure

Shane McCarron: not convinced D/dialogue is a semantic structure ←

15:34:55 <oedipus> RM: INS/DEL kept only in text; use other attributes (including role) to annotate

Roland Merrick: INS/DEL kept only in text; use other attributes (including role) to annotate ←

15:35:04 <oedipus> RM: content model on wiki page is horrendous

Roland Merrick: content model on wiki page is horrendous ←

15:35:29 <oedipus> "Note: If it is decided that two distinct elements are needed -- one for inline use and one for block use -- then the simplest solution would be to use D inline (since it would be used quite often in a document instance) and DB or DBLOCK for block use. Since dialogue is dialogue, however, it would be preferable to have a single element to declaratively mark dialogue, and leave the rest to native structural elements and stylesheets. Therefore, throughout this

"Note: If it is decided that two distinct elements are needed -- one for inline use and one for block use -- then the simplest solution would be to use D inline (since it would be used quite often in a document instance) and DB or DBLOCK for block use. Since dialogue is dialogue, however, it would be preferable to have a single element to declaratively mark dialogue, and leave the rest to native structural elements and stylesheets. Therefore, throughout this ←

15:35:34 <oedipus> RM: what is rationale?

Roland Merrick: what is rationale? ←

15:35:46 <oedipus> "Rationale: XHTML2 currently lacks an element that can clearly mark text as dialogue. The use of Q is not an option for this use case, as the characters aren't being quoted, they are engaging in a conversation. Since a dialogue element would be used quite often, the shortest element name is the best element name for the semantic concept of "dialogue". "

"Rationale: XHTML2 currently lacks an element that can clearly mark text as dialogue. The use of Q is not an option for this use case, as the characters aren't being quoted, they are engaging in a conversation. Since a dialogue element would be used quite often, the shortest element name is the best element name for the semantic concept of "dialogue". " ←

15:38:17 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Dialogue

http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Dialogue ←

15:38:33 <oedipus> RM: represents fact that individual is uttering statement

Roland Merrick: represents fact that individual is uttering statement ←

15:38:57 <oedipus> GJR: provides a means to represent text that is expressed by an individual or group of individuals

Gregory Rosmaita: provides a means to represent text that is expressed by an individual or group of individuals ←

15:39:25 <oedipus> RM: perhaps should make distinction --

Roland Merrick: perhaps should make distinction -- ←

15:40:10 <oedipus> <d>

<d> ←

15:40:10 <oedipus> <dl>

<dl> ←

15:40:10 <oedipus> <dt>Shopkeeper</dt>

<dt>Shopkeeper</dt> ←

15:40:10 <oedipus> <dd><nd>[obviously lying]</nd> Sorry, we're just closing for lunch</dd>

<dd><nd>[obviously lying]</nd> Sorry, we're just closing for lunch</dd> ←

15:40:10 <oedipus> </dl>

</dl> ←

15:40:10 <oedipus> </d>

</d> ←

15:40:45 <oedipus> RM: don't think D would be right thing there - DL for scene

Roland Merrick: don't think D would be right thing there - DL for scene ←

15:40:51 <oedipus> RM: what if in argument or debate?

Roland Merrick: what if in argument or debate? ←

15:41:10 <oedipus> RM: generic D would be much more about annotating a section

Roland Merrick: generic D would be much more about annotating a section ←

15:41:16 <oedipus> RM: D doesn't carry semantics for me there

Roland Merrick: D doesn't carry semantics for me there ←

15:41:33 <oedipus> "when used as a block level element, there needs to be a child element of D which can declaratively mark part of the text as not being dialog, such as stage directions, cues, description of non-verbal action, and so on; in the following example, ND ("not dialogue"), has been used and is being proposed to fill this need"

"when used as a block level element, there needs to be a child element of D which can declaratively mark part of the text as not being dialog, such as stage directions, cues, description of non-verbal action, and so on; in the following example, ND ("not dialogue"), has been used and is being proposed to fill this need" ←

15:41:48 <oedipus> <d role="transcript>

<d role="transcript> ←

15:41:48 <oedipus> <dl>

<dl> ←

15:41:48 <oedipus> <di>

<di> ←

15:41:48 <oedipus> <dt>Donegan:</dt>

<dt>Donegan:</dt> ←

15:41:48 <oedipus> <dd>Did you have any conversation with Brothman to the effect that

<dd>Did you have any conversation with Brothman to the effect that ←

15:41:49 <oedipus> this information was going to the Russians?</dd>

this information was going to the Russians?</dd> ←

15:41:51 <oedipus> </di>

</di> ←

15:41:53 <oedipus> <di>

<di> ←

15:41:55 <oedipus> <dt>Bentley:</dt>

<dt>Bentley:</dt> ←

15:41:57 <oedipus> <dd>I remember once he asked me if the Amtorg people l1ked what

<dd>I remember once he asked me if the Amtorg people l1ked what ←

15:42:00 <oedipus> they were getting.</dd>

they were getting.</dd> ←

15:42:01 <oedipus> </di>

</di> ←

15:42:03 <oedipus> <di>

<di> ←

15:42:06 <oedipus> <dt>Donegan:</dt>

<dt>Donegan:</dt> ←

15:42:07 <oedipus> <dd>Did you ever identify yourself to him as one who had worked for

<dd>Did you ever identify yourself to him as one who had worked for ←

15:42:10 <oedipus> the Amtorg?</dd>

the Amtorg?</dd> ←

15:42:12 <oedipus> </di>

</di> ←

15:42:13 <oedipus> <di>

<di> ←

15:42:15 <oedipus> <dt>Bentley:</dt>

<dt>Bentley:</dt> ←

15:42:17 <oedipus> <dd>No, I never had. I was introduced to him as his Communist Party

<dd>No, I never had. I was introduced to him as his Communist Party ←

15:42:19 <oedipus> superior, and he was to give me dues and information.</dd>

superior, and he was to give me dues and information.</dd> ←

15:42:22 <oedipus> </di>

</di> ←

15:42:23 <oedipus> <di>

<di> ←

15:42:25 <oedipus> <dt>Donegan:</dt>

<dt>Donegan:</dt> ←

15:42:27 <oedipus> <dd>Did he give you his Communist Party dues?</dd>

<dd>Did he give you his Communist Party dues?</dd> ←

15:42:29 <oedipus> </di>

</di> ←

15:42:31 <oedipus> <di>

<di> ←

15:42:33 <oedipus> <dt>Bentley:</dt>

<dt>Bentley:</dt> ←

15:42:35 <oedipus> <dd>Yes, he did.</dd>

<dd>Yes, he did.</dd> ←

15:42:37 <oedipus> </di>

</di> ←

15:42:39 <oedipus> <di>

<di> ←

15:42:42 <oedipus> <dt>Donegan:</dt>

<dt>Donegan:</dt> ←

15:42:43 <oedipus> <dd>On how many occasions, would you say?</dd>

<dd>On how many occasions, would you say?</dd> ←

15:42:45 <oedipus> </di>

</di> ←

15:42:47 <oedipus> <di>

<di> ←

15:42:49 <oedipus> <dt>Bentley:</dt>

<dt>Bentley:</dt> ←

15:42:51 <oedipus> <dd>That would be hard to say. It wasn't every week, but it might be

<dd>That would be hard to say. It wasn't every week, but it might be ←

15:42:53 <oedipus> roughly every month.</dd>

roughly every month.</dd> ←

15:42:56 <oedipus> </di>

</di> ←

15:42:57 <oedipus> </dl>

</dl> ←

15:42:59 <oedipus> </d>

</d> ←

15:43:01 <oedipus> DL Should Give Structure to, Not Generically Indicate, Dialogue

DL Should Give Structure to, Not Generically Indicate, Dialogue ←

15:43:03 <oedipus> RM: investigate what people are actually saying -- all about speech

Roland Merrick: investigate what people are actually saying -- all about speech ←

15:44:13 <oedipus> <h>Kane Found in Love Den with <em class="em-quote">Dancer</em></h>

<h>Kane Found in Love Den with Dancer</h> ←

15:44:49 <oedipus> em-quote would be a :before and :after psuedo-element to indicate quotation nesting

em-quote would be a :before and :after psuedo-element to indicate quotation nesting ←

15:45:15 <Roland> <u role="to-be-said">Hi</u>        <q role="actually-said">Hello</q>

Roland Merrick: Hi <q role="actually-said">Hello</q> ←

15:46:08 <markus> Id be in favor of supporting inline D with the rationale to avoid misuse of Q, and wait for (along Tinas suggestion above) a future dedicated module under XHTMLMOD2 for "real" block level markup of plays etc.

Markus Gylling: Id be in favor of supporting inline D with the rationale to avoid misuse of Q, and wait for (along Tinas suggestion above) a future dedicated module under XHTMLMOD2 for "real" block level markup of plays etc. ←

15:46:29 <markus> ... Steven: you cant attac rdf/a to unicode quotes

Markus Gylling: ... Steven: you cant attach rdf/a to unicode quotes ←

15:46:37 <markus> s/attac/attach

15:47:13 <oedipus> MG: idea with D is can ascribe from whom dialogue originates

Markus Gylling: idea with D is can ascribe from whom dialogue originates ←

15:47:43 <oedipus> RM: Q says "this is what was actually said" - what does D do?

Roland Merrick: Q says "this is what was actually said" - what does D do? ←

15:48:20 <Steven> The rule was for deciding how to introduce new elements

Steven Pemberton: The rule was for deciding how to introduce new elements ←

15:48:32 <Steven> we left old elements mostly untouched

Steven Pemberton: we left old elements mostly untouched ←

15:48:47 <Steven> for 'mindshare' reasons

Steven Pemberton: for 'mindshare' reasons ←

15:48:56 <oedipus> GJR: D proposal has role/type proposed for D

Gregory Rosmaita: D proposal has role/type proposed for D ←

15:49:23 <oedipus> SP: understand use case, but feel that if our current markup extensibility methods are not able to handle this case, then somehow we failed

Steven Pemberton: understand use case, but feel that if our current markup extensibility methods are not able to handle this case, then somehow we failed ←

15:49:57 <oedipus> SP: next time someone comes along with a semantic element idea, what do we do?  extensibility has to be considered before new elements are added

Steven Pemberton: next time someone comes along with a semantic element idea, what do we do? extensibility has to be considered before new elements are added ←

15:50:18 <oedipus> SP: how to fix this? semantic mechanism so that anyone can add semantic info to document

Steven Pemberton: how to fix this? semantic mechanism so that anyone can add semantic info to document ←

15:50:25 <oedipus> SP: if not sufficient, what is wrong with model?

Steven Pemberton: if not sufficient, what is wrong with model? ←

15:50:40 <oedipus> RM: agree with Steven -- concentrate on problem statement

Roland Merrick: agree with Steven -- concentrate on problem statement ←

15:51:04 <Zakim> -Markus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Markus ←

15:51:07 <oedipus> RM: if agree on problem statement, can explore what we can do within XHTML2's over-arching philosophy -- if run into problems, then can consider new element

Roland Merrick: if agree on problem statement, can explore what we can do within XHTML2's over-arching philosophy -- if run into problems, then can consider new element ←

15:51:21 <oedipus> GJR: semantically there IS a difference betwen a quote and dialogue

Gregory Rosmaita: semantically there IS a difference betwen a quote and dialogue ←

15:52:28 <Zakim> +Markus

Zakim IRC Bot: +Markus ←

15:52:41 <oedipus> RM: role="maleProtoganist"

Roland Merrick: role="maleProtoganist" ←

15:53:54 <oedipus> RM: take GJR's use cases and investigate if can solve them with existing technologies native to XHTML

Roland Merrick: take GJR's use cases and investigate if can solve them with existing technologies native to XHTML ←

15:54:35 <oedipus> RM: content model is scary

Roland Merrick: content model is scary ←

15:54:59 <oedipus> GJR: next steps?

Gregory Rosmaita: next steps? ←

15:55:10 <oedipus> RM: rationale is most important bit;

Roland Merrick: rationale is most important bit; ←

15:55:44 <oedipus> "5. since there are many different contexts in which D is an appropriate element/container, a dialogue element demands a role or type attribute, in order to enable differentiation between types of dialogue; a very preliminary list of predefined role values for D follows: * conversation; * dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the element is used to distinguish dialogue from other types of content); * transcript "

"5. since there are many different contexts in which D is an appropriate element/container, a dialogue element demands a role or type attribute, in order to enable differentiation between types of dialogue; a very preliminary list of predefined role values for D follows: * conversation; * dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the element is used to distinguish dialogue from other types of content); * transcript " ←

15:55:57 <oedipus> RM: concentrate on problems then propose solutions

Roland Merrick: concentrate on problems then propose solutions ←

15:56:10 <oedipus> RM: FIVE MINUTE WARNING

Roland Merrick: FIVE MINUTE WARNING ←

15:56:15 <oedipus> RM: any urgent business

Roland Merrick: any urgent business ←

15:56:30 <oedipus> SP: need to ensure roadmap reflects reality

Steven Pemberton: need to ensure roadmap reflects reality ←

15:56:41 <oedipus> TOPIC: Next Steps on XHTML2

8. Next Steps on XHTML2

15:56:49 <oedipus> RM: goal is to get new draft out in May 2009

Roland Merrick: goal is to get new draft out in May 2009 ←

15:57:01 <oedipus> RM: can we create draft for publication in may?

Roland Merrick: can we create draft for publication in may? ←

15:57:18 <oedipus> MG: how does this correlate with PLH's induced discussions with SamRuby?

Markus Gylling: how does this correlate with PLH's induced discussions with SamRuby? ←

15:57:42 <oedipus> SP: have to carry on according to charter whilst addressed in w3c channels - wouldn't be addressed until end of year

Steven Pemberton: have to carry on according to charter whilst addressed in w3c channels - wouldn't be addressed until end of year ←

15:58:08 <oedipus> RM: editors comfortable with may 2009 for publishable draft?

Roland Merrick: editors comfortable with may 2009 for publishable draft? ←

15:58:12 <oedipus> RM: what help needed?

Roland Merrick: what help needed? ←

15:58:16 <oedipus> SM: ready to publish now

Shane McCarron: ready to publish now ←

15:58:31 <oedipus> SP: WG task -- assign and read sections

Steven Pemberton: WG task -- assign and read sections ←

15:58:38 <oedipus> MG: what about XForms?

Markus Gylling: what about XForms? ←

15:58:51 <oedipus> SP: just reference XForms - import XForms 1.1 with the following elements

Steven Pemberton: just reference XForms - import XForms 1.1 with the following elements ←

15:59:00 <oedipus> SP: ok if in working draft as is

Steven Pemberton: ok if in working draft as is ←

15:59:37 <oedipus> SP: XForms WG discussed attribute names yesterday - going to deprecate old attribute names and introduce new - old content will still work, but XHTML2 can go ahead and just use new attributes

Steven Pemberton: XForms WG discussed attribute names yesterday - going to deprecate old attribute names and introduce new - old content will still work, but XHTML2 can go ahead and just use new attributes ←

15:59:41 <oedipus> RM: implications?

Roland Merrick: implications? ←

15:59:56 <oedipus> SP: clashes with XForms attributes -- target, for example

Steven Pemberton: clashes with XForms attributes -- target, for example ←

16:00:05 <oedipus> RM: is there a definitive list?

Roland Merrick: is there a definitive list? ←

16:00:18 <oedipus> SP: thought solved for XML Events 2, need to check XForms

Steven Pemberton: thought solved for XML Events 2, need to check XForms ←

16:00:34 <oedipus> SP: will post pointer to XForms minutes

Steven Pemberton: will post pointer to XForms minutes ←

16:00:39 <oedipus> SP: very accomodating

Steven Pemberton: very accomodating ←

16:00:58 <oedipus> RM: schedule another vFtF soon

Roland Merrick: schedule another vFtF soon ←

16:01:14 <Zakim> -Markus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Markus ←

16:01:16 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

16:01:21 <Zakim> -Roland

Zakim IRC Bot: -Roland ←

16:01:24 <Zakim> -Alessio

Zakim IRC Bot: -Alessio ←

16:01:25 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

16:01:27 <oedipus> RM: will discuss logistics of next virtual face2face at next week's regular XHTML2 WG telecon

Roland Merrick: will discuss logistics of next virtual face2face at next week's regular XHTML2 WG telecon ←

16:01:33 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita

Zakim IRC Bot: -Gregory_Rosmaita ←

16:01:34 <Zakim> Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has ended ←

16:01:35 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Alessio, Yves_S

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Alessio, Yves_S ←

16:01:37 <ShaneM> there are now 45 issues that are !Implemented

Shane McCarron: there are now 45 issues that are !Implemented ←

16:01:55 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:01:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

16:03:48 <oedipus> chair: Roland_Merrick

16:03:53 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:03:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

16:06:00 <oedipus> meeting: XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face

16:06:04 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:06:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

16:07:04 <oedipus> meeting+ XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face

meeting+ XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face ←

16:07:06 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:07:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

16:08:13 <oedipus> meeting- XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference

meeting- XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference ←

16:08:15 <oedipus> meeting+ XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face

meeting+ XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face ←

16:08:17 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

16:08:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus ←

16:27:02 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part

(No events recorded for 18 minutes)

rrsagent, please part ←

16:27:02 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-actions.rdf : ←

16:27:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2 [1]

ACTION: Shane - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2 [1] ←

16:27:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T13-14-38

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T13-14-38 ←

16:27:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Markus - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 [2]

ACTION: Markus - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 [2] ←

16:27:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T13-26-34

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T13-26-34 ←

16:27:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gregory - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples [3]

ACTION: Gregory - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples [3] ←

16:27:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T14-34-23

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T14-34-23 ←

16:27:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition [4]

ACTION: Shane - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition [4] ←

16:27:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T15-23-37

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T15-23-37 ←

Formatted by CommonScribe