11:59:05 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml 11:59:05 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc 11:59:19 zakim, room for 8 at 12z for 240m? 11:59:19 I don't understand your question, Steven. 11:59:37 zakim, room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins 11:59:37 I don't understand 'room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins', Steven 11:59:48 zakim, room for 8 at 1200z for 240 mins? 11:59:50 ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)12:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) at 12:00z for 240 minutes until 1600Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked 12:00:25 Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF1 (26631) 12:00:33 zakim, dial steven-617 12:00:33 ok, Steven; the call is being made 12:00:34 Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has now started 12:00:35 +Steven 12:00:42 trackbot, start telcon 12:00:44 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:00:46 Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2 12:00:46 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 12:00:47 Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference 12:00:47 Date: 23 April 2009 12:01:12 s/Date:/Date - / 12:02:05 zakim, dial steven-617 12:02:05 ok, Steven; the call is being made 12:02:21 zakim, who is here? 12:02:21 I notice Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has restarted 12:02:22 On the phone I see Steven, Roland_Merrick 12:02:23 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot 12:02:24 -Steven 12:02:25 +Steven 12:02:46 Zakim, Roland_Merrick is Roland 12:02:46 +Roland; got it 12:02:52 +Markus 12:04:36 ShaneM has joined #xhtml 12:05:24 zakim, code? 12:05:24 the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven 12:05:34 +Gregory_Rosmaita 12:06:19 +McCarron 12:06:29 zakim, McCarron is ShaneM 12:06:29 +ShaneM; got it 12:06:34 can anyone hear me speaking? 12:06:43 no, steven 12:06:50 -Steven 12:06:56 zakim, dial steven-617 12:06:56 ok, Steven; the call is being made 12:06:58 +Steven 12:07:17 zakim, who is here? 12:07:17 On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM 12:07:18 On IRC I see ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot 12:10:53 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#2009-04-23 12:11:12 Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita 12:11:17 ScribeNick: oedipus 12:11:22 regrets+ Rich_S 12:11:30 Topic: Agenda Review 12:11:40 RM: each item will have 30 minutes devoted to it 12:11:55 SP: Yves will be joining us on ITS integration at 1400h UTC 12:12:03 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/meeting/2009-03-26#how_to_incorporate_ITS 12:12:04 RM: what do we need to cover with Yves 12:12:29 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration 12:12:56 SP: 3 options: inline similar to inline styling; put in head as meta info, or use XLink 12:13:14 MG: should as to use LINK element not XLink 12:13:46 MG: XLink one of many ways, so not a hard and fast requirement; do we want to do everything? has its own ruby module, translation stuff 12:14:26 MG: elements in legacy documents without changing them through external XSLT; use XPath to indicate were should be applied; referencing implementations - required to prove works 12:14:33 http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport 12:14:39 SP: is ITS out of CR? 12:14:50 SM: yes, been a rec for quite some time 12:15:04 SP: if referring to existing technologies, is ok 12:15:09 RM: what is minimum we can do? 12:15:18 SP: LINK element to ITS rules 12:15:33 RM: still doesn't limit exposure - still have to understand everything in ITS 12:15:43 RM: should we be incorporating required ITS features 12:15:56 RM: what is appropriate to us 12:16:03 http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/ 12:16:08 http://www.w3.org/TR/its/ 12:16:13 MG: ok to just pick a sub-set 12:16:15 RM: yes 12:16:38 MG: ITS namespace has own ruby module - no link or dependency on Ruby spec itself 12:16:50 MG: should we consider switching to ITS 1.0? 12:16:57 SP: asked about this - also have own SPAN element 12:17:00 MG: correct 12:17:27 SP: requires a SPAN-like and Ruby-like element -- provided in cases where don't have them, but if available can use 12:17:39 SP: should check that interpretation with Yves 12:17:47 zakim, pointer 12:17:47 I don't understand 'pointer', oedipus 12:18:02 SM: their Ruby brought into line with Ruby Rec at some point 12:18:24 MG: couldn't find any differences - inline ruby element names and behaviors seem same as in Ruby spec 12:18:34 http://www.w3.org/International/its/techniques/its-techniques.html#integration-its-xhtmlmod 12:18:50 SP: fundamental question: to what extent can we sub-set this given our current functionality 12:19:03 s/SP/SM/ 12:19:19 SM: are we going to incorporate ITS as part of their namespace or ours? 12:19:28 SM: my vote is: do it in their namespace 12:19:31 SP: agree 12:19:33 GJR: agree 12:19:52 SP: if just point to set of rules rather than inline, only case that arises is its:translate attribute 12:20:06 SP: propose bringing its:translate into XHTML2 12:20:13 SM: as an attribute in their namespace 12:20:15 SP: yes 12:20:34 SP: what we are missing is "translate" 12:21:16 SM: inline ITS is a sticking point - 12:21:37 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration 12:21:59 SM: not bring in all elements, but bring in things like "translation" referenced to their namespace 12:22:55 SP: questions: 1) does spec allow us to use our native SPAN and RUBY and dir; 2) are you ok with only external ITS; can we use LINK? what would be the Role value 12:23:11 SP: how do they do that in XLink 12:23:27 s/can we use LINK/can we use "ref" with LINK to accomplish this? 12:23:52 oooh. use CURIEs SP: could suggest its:rules "rel" value 12:24:07 SM: would have to declare its prefix vocab mapping 12:24:16 SM: also ITS namespace has to be the same 12:24:38 SP: already an ITS namespace with value rules in it 12:24:43 SP: its:rules element 12:24:49 SM: correct 12:25:02 http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/ 12:25:05 SM: could show them how to annotate as RDF 12:25:13 There's no there-there right now 12:25:25 SP: no, this is more a namespace question, although there is a GRDDL version i thought i came across 12:25:40 SM: like idea of using CURIEs - use their vocabularies and have it just work 12:25:51 12:26:24 12:26:34 SP: what is missing is version info 12:26:35 s/href/ href/ 12:26:57 RM: LINK in HEAD and nowhere else 12:27:06 RM: allow its:translate on one of our elements 12:27:44 SM: vocabulary concatonated to name 12:28:14 MG: can take Qname, right? 12:28:22 SP: syntaxically similar to Qname 12:28:34 a qname is a subset of curie 12:28:36 MG: MarkB - advised use of Qnames along with role values - is that right? 12:28:49 SM: interesting question 12:29:22 SM: can put anything want in quotation marks, but conforming RDFa parser not going to allow triples 12:29:38 SM: Qname doesn't map to IRI like CURIE 12:29:41 SP: ah 12:30:22 SP: P3P has reserved value for "rel" to do roughly the same thing 12:30:41 rel="p3pv1" 12:30:46 (not version info) 12:30:52 s/not/note/ 12:31:09 http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport 12:31:14 http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/ImpReport 12:31:25 http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/ 12:31:37 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration 12:32:05 s/what would be the Role value/what would be the rel value 12:32:14 rrsagent, make minutes 12:32:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 12:32:48 SM: from implementation report and conformance language, we conform by virtue of having a native SPAN attribute 12:33:19 SM: one must be available: SPAN, RUBY; if Ruby used, declare inline, if SPAN used, use as inline element 12:33:27 SM: did provide us with module as per our request 12:33:49 SM: also support ITS in M12n? 12:34:19 Birbeck discussing QNames in @role: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/05/something-which-was-part-of-early.html 12:34:38 12:34:38 xmlns:its="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its" 12:34:38 xml:lang="en"> 12:34:38 12:34:40 its 12:34:42 12:34:44 12:34:46 12:34:48 12:34:50 12:34:53

Grrrr

12:34:54 12:34:56 12:34:58 12:35:08 proposed questions now at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration 12:36:36 GJR: apply to XHTML2 only or to 1.2? 12:36:46 RM: first agree on framework, then retrofit 12:38:00 shane, Yves will join at http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=04&day=23&hour=14&min=00&sec=0&p1=136&p2=179&p3=215&p4=248&p5=283 12:38:09 rrsagent, make minutes 12:38:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 12:38:20 RM: other i18n issues to discuss? 12:38:51 [none logged] 12:38:59 TOPIC: Agenda Shaping 12:39:09 RM: order of agenda items: Access first? 12:39:34 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/ 12:39:34 SM: clear to move Access to second LC - put out new draft this morning and updated disposition of comments 12:39:51 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/ 12:39:59 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml-access-lc-doc-20090415.html 12:40:06 SM: happy to let draft go to LC 12:40:28 -Steven 12:40:38 zakim, dial steven-617 12:40:38 ok, Steven; the call is being made 12:40:40 +Steven 12:40:43 RM: just needs a bit of editorial tidying, but ready to go, so should start process 12:40:45 SM: yes 12:40:56 -Steven 12:41:23 zakim, dial steven-617 12:41:23 ok, Steven; the call is being made 12:41:25 +Steven 12:41:34 SM: chicken and egg problem: Access refers to CURIEs CR draft; changed CURIEs so doesn't have prefixing mechanism, putting onus on host language; Access isn't a host language, so we should be ok 12:42:04 RM: assuming HCG has no problem with this tomorrow, can immediately ask for XHTML Access to go back to Last Call 12:42:09 -Steven 12:42:19 SM: should be more specific about whom we need to comment on Access 12:42:30 RM: have to address concerns brought up by PF and i18n 12:42:39 SP: some SVG stuff as well? 12:42:55 SM: no last call comment from SVG in disposition/issue tracker 12:43:21 GJR: PF has a long standing clarification request about abiility to mix targetid and targetrole in the @order attribute 12:43:34 GJR: PF wants to know if is permissible 12:44:13 zakim, dial steven-617 12:44:13 ok, Steven; the call is being made 12:44:14 +Steven 12:44:44 PFWG ACTION-211 - query XHTML2 and SVG on wheter mixing roles and ids with targetrole and targetid for @order is ok or problemmatic 12:45:00 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/211 12:45:05 zakim, disconnect Steven 12:45:05 Steven is being disconnected 12:45:07 -Steven 12:45:12 we got your voice mail 12:45:46 SM: in ACCESS element description must have targetrole OR targetid specified - if not present, mapping ignored 12:45:49 sorry, problems with phoen here. Trying another 12:45:55 zakim, dial steven-617 12:45:55 ok, Steven; the call is being made 12:45:56 +Steven 12:46:13 SM: not permitted in Access element - can have one or the other, can't have both 12:46:49 GJR: will communicate that to PF 12:46:54 -Steven 12:46:58 oh no 12:47:15 RM: user agent must only use targetid attribute values 12:47:22 "If a targetid and a targetrole are both specified for an element, a user agent MUST only use the values from the the targetid attribute." 12:48:31 RM: have resolution from 2009-04-22 telecon to cycle Access Module back through Last Call 12:48:46 -ShaneM 12:49:08 TOPIC: CURIE 12:49:17 s/CURIE/CURIEs 12:49:22 rrsagent, make minutes 12:49:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 12:49:39 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/Overview.html#curie 12:49:45 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-curie-20090422 12:51:45 zakim, dial steven-617 12:51:45 ok, Steven; the call is being made 12:51:46 +Steven 12:51:59 +ShaneM 12:53:33 Gregory: When I go to banking services, the forms are half declarative, and half procedural 12:53:47 ... I need a role value to express this 12:54:06 ... some people are worried this would hold up ARIA 12:54:33 Shane: Add it to the role module! 12:54:33 SM: nothing to do with ARIA - just define "form" in Role Module and be done with it 12:54:36 GJR: fine with me 12:54:55 RM: return to ARIA later; 12:55:13 SM: updated CURIE spec - removed xmlns stuff and produced new editor's draft 12:55:17 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-curie-20090422 12:55:56 SM: changes CURIE into a datatype with a defines mapping with value space 12:56:12 SM: does it poorly, but does the job - can't find a better way anyway 12:56:29 SM: may get push-back from people who feel this change is too large 12:56:42 SM: already have 1 comment to that effect 12:58:07 MG: wasn't there an email that said up to host language to perform binding, so how can one have local CURIE processor 12:58:09 SM: can't 12:58:36 s/local/generic/ 12:58:36 SM: always permitted alternate prefix mapping mechanisms 12:58:52 SP: introduced to open hole to allow it to be inserted into HTML5? 12:58:59 SM: what? 12:59:03 SP: leaving it to host language 12:59:21 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0009.html 12:59:35 SM: no, another objection; didn't want to use xmlns as prefix mechanism 12:59:49 MG: concerned about Role Module forcing HTML vocab to be default one 13:00:02 MG: ability to redefine vocab is separate but legitimate issue 13:00:25 SM: objection from a reviewer that didn't want to be forced to use xmlns - we thought that reasonable 13:00:33 SP: strong argument against having to go to LC again 13:00:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Mar/0081.html 13:00:50 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0012.html 13:00:59 SP: if reviewer still objects - can state can have 1 or the other, but not both - going back to LC won't solve that problem 13:01:06 SM: generic processor never practical 13:01:18 rrsagent, make minutes 13:01:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:01:28 Includes: " I don't see how you can get out of CR to PR, looking at your implementation report. At this stage, I'm now asking Sean, my AC rep, to oppose such a transition." 13:01:52 SM: should finish collecting tests into a "test suite" 13:02:06 SM: do we need a "test suite"? 13:02:24 SM: for CURIEs? think we have one anyway -- just point to RDFa and be done with it 13:02:31 SM: could identify sub-set of relevant tests 13:02:50 RM: wasn't there a concern about a feature that RDFa doesn't use 13:03:12 SM: datatype, which isn't a feature; a lot of CURIE features not used by RDFa -- allow alternate prefix mapping mechanisms, etc. 13:03:20 SM: no default prefix 13:03:37 SM: if CURIE starts with a colon, don't define meaning for that in RDFa 13:03:48 SM: or a CURIE without a colon - in car, can't check 13:04:02 SM: MarkB had deemed those "reserved values" 13:04:25 MG: so what if CURIE does start with colon? 13:04:51 SP: prefix without colon - section 7 in RDFa "Module" defines how work with CURIEs with rules 13:06:10 SP: can leave out prefix according to CURIE document 13:06:34 SM: should say "for each of those, host languages may define a rule or mechanism to establish default prefix" 13:07:02 SP: "when prefix omitted from CURIE" doesn't cover the colon question 13:07:36 SP: if just put colon in front, use default prefix 13:07:38 SM: right 13:07:40 SP: got it 13:08:22 SM: agree that there are aspects of CURIE that RDFa does not use; isn't requirement that test suites be comprhensive, but all features of spec have to be used in 2 independent implementations 13:08:34 SM: we need to decide if satisfied criteria 13:08:47 SM: but that doesn't necessarily require a test suite 13:09:34 SP: have usage in RDFa, OWL 13:09:55 RM: aren't talking about implementations of those languages are we? 13:10:11 SP: can point to implementations of RDFa as implementation of CURIEs 13:10:13 SM: agree 13:10:17 SP: have a dozen of those 13:10:50 RM: markup languages include: OWL 13:10:58 SM: OWL WG said won't use CURIEs 13:11:12 RM: including OWL is a bit of a stretch then 13:11:15 SM: yes 13:11:44 SM: rolled their own rather than reuse CURIEs 13:12:09 http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/ 13:12:12 RM: Last Call WD - 20 April 2009 - should send feedback 13:12:34 SM: part of SemWeb activity, which is origins of CURIEs so makes sense for us to eat our own dog food 13:13:08 RM: strange that didn't request feedback specifically from us since working on similar mechanism 13:13:26 RM: can we get comment from RDFa task force? 13:14:38 ACTION: Shane - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2 13:14:39 Created ACTION-76 - - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-30]. 13:14:40 http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-overview-20090421/#Documentation_Roadmap 13:14:45 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Changes_Since_December_2008 13:14:54 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw 13:15:00 http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-overview-20090421/ 13:15:03 http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-primer-20090421/ 13:15:07 http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-new-features-20090421/ 13:15:11 http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-quick-reference-20090421/ 13:15:28 RM: doesn't seem like a coordinated approach within SemWeb 13:15:42 SM: CURIEs useful in SPRQL 13:16:00 SM: way to view CURIEs is as datatype with some requirements on host language 13:16:12 SP: just like a URI 13:17:07 alessio has joined #xhtml 13:17:09 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL 13:17:22 OWL1: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-owl-features-20040210/ 13:17:44 zakim, code? 13:17:44 the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), alessio 13:18:15 -ShaneM 13:18:24 RM: comment date is 12 May 2009 - need to be expeditious 13:18:33 http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-manchester-syntax/ 13:18:34 +[IPcaller] 13:18:43 +ShaneM 13:18:47 http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/ 13:18:48 zakim, IPcaller is Alessio 13:18:48 +Alessio; got it 13:18:57 Comment By 12 May 2009 13:18:58 SP: if don't use CURIEs what do they use? 13:19:05 RM: their own solution 13:19:17 SM: which is VERY similar to CURIE, but with further restrictions 13:19:36 SM: called "abreviated IRIs" 13:20:06 from W3 front page blurb: "OWL 2 (a compatible extension of OWL 1) consists of 13 documents (7 technical, 4 instructional, and 2 group Notes)" 13:21:56 OWL comment action item: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/76 13:22:33 SM: is DAISY using CURIEs? 13:22:38 MG: yes 13:23:20 GJR: on list for ARIA 2.0 - support for CURIEs to point to external resources 13:23:39 +ShaneM.a 13:23:41 -ShaneM 13:23:59 SP: can mention RIF - RIF core and RIF collection/dialect 13:24:05 ShaneM has joined #xhtml 13:24:16 s/SP: can mention RIF/RM: can mention RIF/ 13:24:16 zakim, who is here 13:24:16 ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?' 13:24:20 zakim, who is here? 13:24:20 On the phone I see Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ShaneM.a 13:24:22 On IRC I see ShaneM, alessio, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, markus, Roland, markbirbeck, oedipus, Tina, trackbot 13:24:25 RM: other implementations? 13:24:31 zakim, ShaneM.a is ShaneM 13:24:31 +ShaneM; got it 13:24:38 GJR: ARIA use pending status of CURIE document 13:24:54 SM: Markus, have a pointer? 13:25:02 MG: not public info yet 13:25:16 SM: need something to point to - could be email from you to public-xhtml2@w3.org 13:25:42 RM: easiest to send email to public-xhtml2 with pointers to code in that mail 13:26:24 ACTION - Markus: send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 13:26:24 Sorry, couldn't find user - - 13:26:34 ACTION: Markus - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 13:26:34 Created ACTION-77 - - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 [on Markus Gylling - due 2009-04-30]. 13:28:40 RESOLVED: request CURIE to be transitioned from CR to PR 13:28:49 rrsagent, make minutes 13:28:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:28:56 trackbot, pointer 13:28:56 Sorry, oedipus, I don't understand 'trackbot, pointer'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 13:29:12 -Steven 13:29:19 [ADJOURN UNTIL 1345h UTC] 13:29:24 rrsagent, stop log 13:29:24 I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help 13:29:27 rrsagent, stop 13:37:34 ARIA 2.0 CURIE Support Issue Tracker entry: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/285 13:37:39 rrsagent, make minutes 13:37:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:37:42 rrsagent, stop 13:42:39 +Gregory_Rosmaita 13:42:43 it occured to me that xhtml 1.2, xhtml 2, and xhtml modularization 2 also all use CURIEs 13:42:59 oh - and XHTML Role and XHTML Access and RDFa of course... 13:45:48 YvesS has joined #xhtml 13:46:06 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/285 13:46:38 http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#roles 13:47:39 SM: does aria's roles allow CURIEs? 13:48:42 "The applicable ARIA role is the concrete ARIA role whose name is matched by the first token in the sequence of tokens in the role attribute value which matches, on case-sensitive comparison, the name of any concrete ARIA role." 13:48:42 "A concrete ARIA role is any of the role types described above except abstract roles (roles for which isAbstract is true) and the roles imported from the Role Module, that is those that are introduced in sections 4.4.6 and 4.4.7" 13:49:17 http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#host_general 13:49:39 http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#marquee 13:49:55 An implementing host language will provide an attribute with the following characteristics: 13:49:55 * The attribute name MUST be role; 13:49:55 * The attribute value MUST allow a space-separated sequence of whitespace-free substrings; 13:49:55 * The appearance of the name literal of any concrete ARIA role (see section 7.3.2) as one of these substrings MUST NOT in and of itself make the attribute value illegal in the host-language syntax; and 13:49:55 * If the name literal of a concrete ARIA role appears as one of the substrings in the space-separated list in the role attribute, the role MUST be processed in accordance with this specification. 13:51:11 SM: essentially CURIE-type mechanism by another name 13:51:51 ARIA 1.0 "Following the Namespaces Recommendation [XML-NAMES], the namespace name for these attributes has no value. The names of these attributes do not have a prefix offset by a colon; in the terms of namespaces they are unprefixed attribute names. The ECMAScript binding of the DOM interface getAttributeNS for example, treats an empty string ("") as representing this condition, so that both getAttribute("aria-busy") and getAttributeNS("", "aria-busy") acces 13:52:17 RM: request transition for CURIE, make LC comments to OWL2 to try and get consistency in SemWeb area 13:52:31 Yves, we are ready when you are 13:52:44 YvesS 13:52:47 ok, I'm getting there. 13:53:44 + +1.303.945.aaaa 13:53:54 shane, http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#Issue_7659_and__Issue_7656 13:54:12 zakim, +1.303.945.aaaa is Yves_S 13:54:12 +Yves_S; got it 13:54:41 SM: should announce in RDFa implementation that DAISY uses RDFa 13:54:58 MG: will go public with first draft before summer - nothing to look at at this point 13:55:11 s/RDFa implementation/rdfa.info/ 13:55:17 MG: except for source code repository 13:55:34 rrsagent, make minutes 13:55:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:56:02 TOPIC: ITS Integration Discussion with YvesS 13:56:15 yves, http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#ITS_Integration 13:56:50 background: the WG has identified at least 3 questions for Yves: 13:56:51 * 13:56:51 o does ITS allow XHTML to use its native SPAN element and Ruby module? 13:56:51 o is external ITS support alone sufficient? 13:56:51 o can we use LINK with "rel" in HEAD? 13:57:13 1. does ITS allow XHTML to use its native SPAN element and Ruby module? 13:57:13 2. is external ITS support alone sufficient? 13:57:13 3. can we use LINK with "rel" in HEAD? 13:57:42 Subtopic: Reuse of XHTML's Native SPAN element or ruby module? 13:58:01 SM: want to integrate ITS into XHTML2 - wanted to get info straight from source's mouth 13:58:23 SM: can we use native XHTML span to satisfy ITS? 13:58:26 Yves: correct 13:58:31 SM: what about Ruby module 13:58:40 Yves: if aligned with ITS 13:58:47 SM: ITS copied ours, so should be ok 13:58:54 Subtopic: LINK versus XLink 13:59:15 SM: can we use LINK with "rel" to link to ITS rules document 13:59:47 Yves: good question; as long as documented properly, shouldn't be an issue; don't see any conflict; processor just needs to know what to do with LINK 14:00:13 SM: have other groups identified value that want to use for "rel" attribute 14:00:28 s/SM: want to integrate/SP: want to integrate 14:00:40 s/SM: can we use native/SP: can we use native 14:00:54 s/SM: ITS copied ours/SP: ITS copied ours 14:01:08 s/SM: can we use LINK/SP: can we use LINK/ 14:01:29 SM: want to have "rel" attribute that states HREF pointing at is an ITS rule 14:01:49 Yves: XHTML2 WG should come up with value for "rel" attribute - we will follow your lead 14:02:00 SP: preference is to use a CURIE 14:02:03 XHTML2 WG Gets to blaze the trail again! 14:02:11 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2009-04-FtF-Agenda#CURIE 14:02:28 SP: since rulename is its:rules therefore rel="its:rules" 14:02:42 SP: any objection to using CURIE? 14:02:48 Yves: don't forsee problem 14:03:05 SM: is HTML5 group going to accomodate ITS? 14:03:09 Yves: yes 14:03:11 SP: how? 14:03:16 Yves: explicit links 14:03:23 HTML5 would not like use to use a colon 14:03:33 SP: if have to interoperate with their value, shouldn't be a CURIE, but keyword value 14:03:54 rel="itsrules" 14:03:59 SM: if that is part of target audience, i agree -- if try to use CURIE, have vocabulary prefix issue to deal with, so prefer rel="its:rules" 14:04:01 rel="itsRules" maybe 14:04:29 SM: without colon - then HTML5 can't complain about colon 14:04:41 SM: want maximum number of people to take advantage of and use ITS 14:04:47 SM: need consistent behavior model 14:04:58 Subtopic: ITS Rule Versioning 14:05:10 SP: do rules documents state version? 14:05:33 Yves: yes - describe way external tool can handle ITS document 14:05:45 SP: not worried that LINK wouldn't say which version pointing to? 14:06:01 Yves: no - customized tools is end goal 14:06:13 SP: don't want to have to change documents because of new version of ITS rules 14:06:30 SP: if allow LINK rel="itsRules" is that sufficient? 14:06:36 Yves: yes, provided can do the lookup 14:06:53 Subtopic: its:translate 14:07:19 SP: want to use its:translate, but already have own "dir" - can just use "translate" attribute 14:07:36 Yves: that is fine; map existing data categories/atttributes using ITS rules 14:07:53 SP: in its rules, can say attribute "dir" is same as its "dir" 14:07:59 how about lala ? instead of its:translate? 14:08:12 Yves: yes 14:08:36 SP: no problem importing its:translate - do you have preference if reuse yours or include a native XHTML translate attribute 14:08:51 Yves: use ITS 14:09:03 SP: not allergic to foreign namespaces 14:09:51 Yves: can map it 14:10:04 rrsagent, make minutes 14:10:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 14:10:17 SP: thank you VERY much Yves for your attendance 14:10:37 Yves: HTML5 comment on question of value - suggest use "itsRules" 14:10:52 -Yves_S 14:10:53 Yves: will keep XHTML2 WG updated on negotiations with HTML WG 14:11:29 SM: create ITS module for XHTML2 spec that indicates bringing in itsRules attribute add to Common or Text module? 14:11:43 MG: inheritable, so that is reason to put in common 14:11:59 RM: text module 14:12:34 MG: 2 questions: ITS module and should it be in Common or Text Attribute collection 14:12:47 MG: where to put it is the ultimate question 14:12:57 SM: if add to existing module, i'd add to i18n module 14:13:08 [general agreement on wisdom of this] 14:13:20 SM: adds internationalization collection to the common collection 14:13:33 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-i18n.html#s_i18nmodule 14:13:35 -Steven 14:13:36 SP: translate attribute marked as an issue in that very section 14:13:50 SM: for XHTML2, use i18n module 14:13:51 zakim, dial steven-617 14:13:51 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:13:53 +Steven 14:14:10 SM: architectual question: should i18n module always include ITS in M12n 2.0 14:14:28 SM: bring in rel="itsRule" and itsTranslate? 14:14:35 SM: i think the answer is yes 14:14:43 RM: don't see reason to say "no" at the moment 14:14:47 itsrules 14:15:01 s/rel="itsRule"/rel="itsrules" 14:15:05 s/rel="itsRule"/rel="itsrules"/G 14:15:27 SP: why not put i18n and bi-directional text together in same module? 14:15:29 SM: and ruby? 14:15:43 SP: no, ruby has own attribute collection - referenced by indirection 14:16:13 SM: not a bad suggestion to collapse into i18n module, but don't want to consume f2f time on that editorial issue 14:16:37 s/SM: and ruby/RM: and ruby?/ 14:17:26 -Steven 14:17:54 RM: ITS use in LINK element with appropriate "rel" value 14:18:17 zakim, dial steven-617 14:18:17 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:18:19 +Steven 14:18:32 RM: investigate collation of ITS, ruby and bi-directionality into an expanded i18n module 14:19:43 TOPIC: Issues 7659 (AnneVK comments) 14:19:45 http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7659;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 14:19:59 SM: issued at when stopped last time - hypertext attribute selection 14:20:13 Subtopic: hypertext attribute selection 14:20:24 SM: Anne asks why are needed at all 14:20:59 s/hypertext attribute selection/hypertext attribute module 14:21:12 rrsagent, make minutes 14:21:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 14:22:05 SP: hreflang doesn't solve problem - if multiple language versions of link and send dutch link to you who use russian, should get russian version 14:22:28 SP: hreflang not a new facilllity; always in HTML4 14:22:37 SP: problem - doesn't do anything - no better than comment 14:22:57 SP: if claim it is dutch than it better be "nl" - if don't want to do, then don't 14:23:26 GJR: hreflang is useful for accessibility because it prepares the Assitive techonology to make the appropriate natural language switch 14:24:06 GJR: hreflang identifies natural language for natural language processing 14:24:38 SP: 2 problems: 1. not garunteed to be interoperable (will break if move URLs if web server doesn't use same method of specifying URLs 14:25:06 SP: 2. no way to garuntee that is possible - know at least 1 server where one can have several resources linked via URL but not to sub-resources 14:25:14 RM: content creator's choice whether or not to do that 14:25:29 RM: could make them available as choice or through content-negotiation 14:25:48 SP: hreflang doesn't break content negotiation 14:26:12 SP: hreflang offers extra functionality - if don't want to use, don't have to, but is useful functionality for some use cases 14:27:02 SP: example: if have on homepage links to different versions of homepage, this allows me to check if they are really there -- allows one to check links to ensure that what is supposed to be the dutch version is the dutch version 14:27:46 GJR: also good trigger to switch natural langauge for TTS, charsets for screen magnification, especially in absence of natural language declaration in document being referred to 14:28:03 RM: document benefits and extra functionality 14:28:08 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-hyperAttributes.html#s_hyperAttributesmodule 14:28:42 "This attribute specifies the primary language of the resource designated by href. At its most general, it is a comma-separated list of language ranges with optional accept parameters, as defined in section 14.4 of [RFC2616] as the field value of the Accept-Language request header." 14:28:42 "In its simplest case, this is just a language code, such as "nl", but it may also contain variant specifications such as "en-gb"." 14:29:18 RM: doesn't address why would use in concert with content negotiation 14:29:25 SP: current text isn't sufficient? 14:29:42 RM: don't think we cover value statement very well as currently written 14:29:59 example from document: 14:30:06

hreflang="fr"> 14:30:06 The press release in French 14:30:06

14:30:24 RM: no complimentary documents that goes with XHTML2 that addresses how to use these things together 14:30:34 RM: will lose this if don't put into document 14:31:05 GJR: i have an action item to create a wiki page for Role BP; i could do the same for hreflang and content negotiation 14:31:21 RM: need "motivating examples" 14:31:56 SP: could put same example with Press Release in Dutch 14:32:22 GJR: wouldn't you want Dutch for "this page in dutch 14:32:45 RM: content negotiation methods - match against what UAs do today 14:33:02 SP: if want to say this is version in french, so available to someone who wants french 14:33:30 RM: if all want to do is get what matches browser, don't have to worry; if want to give user option to choose language, then use hreflang 14:34:23 ACTION: Gregory - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples 14:34:23 Created ACTION-78 - - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-04-30]. 14:35:53 GJR: make sure to address xml:lang in conjunction with hreflang and content negotiation 14:36:11 RM: done on hreflang for now? 14:36:25 SP: brief comment at end - target is CSS issue with pointer to old spec 14:36:30 SM: answer is "no it is not" 14:36:32 SP: right 14:36:53 SM: bi-directional text verbiage has typo i need to correct 14:37:01 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml-vocab-20090423.html 14:37:17 Subtopic: Edit 14:37:33 SM: Quote element doesn't have default presentation, whereas "edit" has one 14:38:14 RM: comment from DocBook about not having default presentation in quote 14:38:29 SP: reping CSS WG - ascertain if changed mind 14:38:53 RM: want to have consistency for content creators across languages 14:39:07 SP: can undo decision - is in current form due to comment and request 14:39:19 SM: have to revisit the issue anyway 14:39:28 Subtopic: Embedding Attribute Module and @type 14:39:37 SM: question is why need @type at all 14:40:00 SM: purpose of @type is so i can indicate to UA what types of resources are available that i want to use for my document 14:40:19 SM: UA should then determine intersection of what author wants and internal capabilities and serve the "best" one 14:40:38 SM: author in control of document and resources therein 14:41:03 RM: what about things embedded from elsewhere? don't necesarily have control over embedded content 14:41:10 SP: always been in HTML 14:41:16 RM: don't need old baggage 14:41:30 SM: some old baggage is useful and we have tightened usage 14:42:20 SM: @type allows me to serve image in SVG, PNG, JPG, and GIF - as author, want cascade: SVG, PNG, JPG or GIF depending on UA capabilities 14:42:39 SP: if don't want to use it, don't use it, full stop 14:42:57 SP: allows for more author control - increases author's power, doesn't decrease it 14:43:10 SM: what should http-accept header report 14:43:24 provides a more stable object fallback 14:44:12 RM: don't have image module 14:44:14 http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/xhtml-m12n-2/mod-csImgMap.html#s_csImgMapmodule 14:44:25 RM: first example uses NL - ok 14:44:42 SP: why arent' attributes applied directly to a list 14:44:58 SM: why do you need detail is comment 14:45:15 SM: if change to UL should solve problem 14:45:25 SP:
    right? 14:45:27 SM: sure 14:45:43 SM: don't call "LABEL" but "CAPTION" 14:45:52 MG: no LABEL element anymore 14:46:05 GJR: suggested use of LEGEND instead of CAPTION 14:46:18 SM: TITLE or CAPTION - different semantics 14:47:13 GJR: use old fieldset, legend. label model, freed from forms - irrelevant due to XForms module, so reuse LEGEND as generic labeller 14:47:21 Subtopic: Why Need OBJECT? 14:47:29 SM: something has to take PARAM 14:47:51 GJR: trying to get HTML5 to consider PARAM for EACH media-specific element 14:48:12 Subtopic: XHTML Scripting Module 14:48:41 SM: complaint that it was being dropped; we have decided to chop XML Events into event, handler and script 14:49:26 Subtopic: XForms 14:49:43 SM: don't understand "useable by everyone" forms instead 14:49:51 SP: send pointer to XForms in HTML tutorial 14:51:48 TOPIC: Issue-7656, Comments from Neil Katin 14:52:03 RM: some of these complaints/comments have been obsoleted by events 14:52:10 SM: most of them 14:52:18 http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XHTML-2.0?id=7656;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 14:52:42 Subtopic: Example for hreftype 14:52:51 SM: will check to ensure that hreftype example is correct 14:53:05 Subtopic: Definition of Access 14:53:13 SM: editorial complaint 14:53:25 RM: shouldn't be problem - ripped out Access and made it its own module 14:53:28 SM: right 14:54:15 Subtopic: bidi text 14:54:20 comment: "(bidi text) there are two section definitions that are malformed: 15.1.3.15.1.1. Inheritance of text direction information and 15.1.4. 15.1.2. The effect of style sheets on bidirectionality" 14:54:40 SP: in HTML4 could only say deleted somewhere and inserted somewhere else - 14:54:47 q+ 14:55:07 GJR: proposed a for/id relationship for INS and DEL in Editing Module 14:55:57 rrsagent, make minutes 14:55:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 14:56:46 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/ModificationMarkup 14:56:59 attributes: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/ModificationMarkup#Attributes_Necessary_for_Modification_Element.28s.29 14:57:44 GJR: lingering question: "is dig dog best practice, or is diog permissible, and is it any of our business? " 14:58:25 -Gregory_Rosmaita 14:58:44 Roland: I find it hard to get excited about this 14:59:41 Roland: Further down it shows a reply, and mentions the edit="moved" 15:00:40 Roland: Are there any more of these issues? 15:00:44 Shane: Lots 15:01:08 ... such as 82 issues in "incoming" 15:01:19 i/Roland: I find/ScribeNick+ Steven 15:01:51 +Gregory_Rosmaita 15:01:58 Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita 15:02:06 SP: meant to be new working group when renamed XHTML2 15:02:15 SP: HTML5 WG didn't take over our XML issues 15:02:27 SP: we (XHTML2) retained issues from old working group 15:02:41 SP: done our best to work with them, go to LC, and let them comment on that 15:02:54 RM: should delete or mark incomplete in issues list 15:03:05 RM: can close one-by-one, but need to do SOMETHING with them 15:03:06 s/XML/HTML/ 15:03:11 rrsagent, make minutes 15:03:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 15:03:24 RM: new ones since group re-chartered? 15:03:37 SP: would be in incoming bucket 15:03:44 SM: only 1 issue since rechartered 15:03:56 SM: about editorial error in CURIE spec which i think i fixed 15:04:08 RM: comments on XML Events get to issue tracker? 15:04:48 old issue tracking system on XML Events: http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/XMLEvents?user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1 15:05:26 shane's tracker "XMLEvents has 6 messages" 15:07:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008JanMar/0015.html 15:07:26 Errata for XML Events: An Events Syntax for XML 15:07:50 comment: In "B. Schema Implementation" the third sentence reads: "It is divided into an attributes module and an element module for the XML Events module defined in this Proposed Recommendation." This should read: "It is divided into an attributes module and an element module for the XML Events module defined in this Recommendation." 15:08:20 SM: don't remember seeing it in issue tracker, but can put it there 15:08:46 SM: didn't imagine us doing an update to XML Events 1 15:08:58 RM: should we ever need to, this is something we should address at same time 15:09:21 RM: should keep track in relation to XML Events 1 - if do need to PER XML Events 1, then would address all errata on that document 15:09:31 SM: i'll get it into the tracker 15:10:02 Subtopic: How Do We Make the Issue Tracking System Useful? 15:10:15 SM: use issue tracker effectively for new work (last call comments, etc.) 15:10:33 SM: in the past, have tracked comments from last call or PR review - works to extent we use it 15:10:47 SM: do have a lot of old baggage and unprocessed stuff in old tracking system 15:11:01 SM: can take all of unprocessed stuff and mark obsolete 15:11:24 RM: proposed resolution: All items in issue tracking system dated prior to new charter be closed as no longer relevant 15:11:39 SM: will that fly? 15:12:17 SP: can argue it reasonably; old group's charter ended and new group chartered (XHTML2) - did best to process as many comments from previous group as could and are now staring tracking afresh 15:12:32 SP: TBL did say this is going to be a new group with a new charter and new chair 15:12:50 SM: going to create a bucket called "old" -- everything that isn't in a certain state will be included 15:13:01 SM: if closed, leave where is - already dealt with and useful for pointers 15:13:17 SM: if implemented, done it, but haven't reissued public draft since effecting changes 15:13:30 SM: if marked "suspended" we were holding for later processing 15:13:56 SM: anything not in "suspended", "implemented" or "closed" will be obsoleted 15:14:07 RM: charter start date? 15:14:20 RM: end date 31 December 2009 15:15:02 SP: date of charter 2007-02-02 15:15:18 SM: anything before 2007? 15:15:20 SP: yes 15:15:22 RM: yes 15:15:24 GJR: yes 15:15:26 AC: yes 15:16:29 SM: should we inform users that comment tabled, please re-review and re-submit if necessary 15:16:45 RM: let's ascertain how many there are to deal with 15:16:50 SP: [counting] 15:18:05 proposed RESOLVED: All items in issue tracker dated prior to issuance of new XHTML2 Charter (2007-02) will be closed as no longer relevant 15:19:00 SM: more general question: 259 messages that are "open", but 135 are in the "trash" - spam not yet marked as closed 15:22:22 SM: rather than doing in "real time" will go through and remove the extraneous "crust" 15:22:35 SP: if only 80, can do quick pass over them 15:22:45 SP: can we chop it down even further? 15:22:58 RM: shane, take a pass, post a list, and will revisit if we need resolution 15:23:37 ACTION: Shane - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition 15:23:37 Created ACTION-79 - - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-04-30]. 15:23:44 rrsagent, make minutes 15:23:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 15:25:55 TOPIC: D - a single element to indicate dialogue 15:25:56 -ShaneM 15:26:13 brb 15:26:40 +ShaneM 15:26:57 SP: elements for structural portions of document; semantics indicated by attributes (why added role) 15:27:07 SP: in case of D, looks like adding semantics 15:27:15 SP: can't we use a role="dialogue" 15:27:25 GJR: would role="dialogue" be applied to Q 15:27:45 If we are not indicating semantics with elements, then why are we indicating semantics with /some/ elements? 15:28:15 GJR: Q inappropriate because when including dialogue, one is not quoting, but speaking in the character's voice 15:28:34 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/D 15:28:58 "3. D provides a clear and necessary semantic marker in a generic/foundational declarative markup language -- it provides a declarative means of identifying text as dialogue, rather than leaving indications of dialogue embedded in prose to be indicated with "naked" quotation marks, character entity values or unicode values such as " or u0022 or u0027, and so on) nor can one rely on extremely spotty implementation of the :before and :after pseudo-elements to g 15:29:26 RM: dialogue in my understanding involves multiple parties 15:29:35 GJR: monolog would be subsumed into dialogue 15:32:05 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/D 15:32:09 ...what about d role="monolog"? 15:32:31 RM: could we make this a property of P or SPAN? 15:32:39 MG: yep 15:33:09 what about this use case: 15:33:10 15:33:10
    15:33:10
    Shopkeeper
    15:33:10
    [obviously lying] Sorry, we're just closing for lunch
    15:33:10
    15:33:12     15:33:43 Can't that be solved by pulling in another namespace specifically created for, say, plays etc? 15:33:50 "since there are many different contexts in which D is an appropriate element/container, a dialogue element demands a role or type attribute, in order to enable differentiation between types of dialogue; a very preliminary list of predefined role values for D follows: conversation, dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the element is used to distinguish dialogue from other types of content, transcript " 15:34:12 SM: not convinced D/dialogue is a semantic structure 15:34:55 RM: INS/DEL kept only in text; use other attributes (including role) to annotate 15:35:04 RM: content model on wiki page is horrendous 15:35:29 "Note: If it is decided that two distinct elements are needed -- one for inline use and one for block use -- then the simplest solution would be to use D inline (since it would be used quite often in a document instance) and DB or DBLOCK for block use. Since dialogue is dialogue, however, it would be preferable to have a single element to declaratively mark dialogue, and leave the rest to native structural elements and stylesheets. Therefore, throughout this 15:35:34 RM: what is rationale? 15:35:46 "Rationale: XHTML2 currently lacks an element that can clearly mark text as dialogue. The use of Q is not an option for this use case, as the characters aren't being quoted, they are engaging in a conversation. Since a dialogue element would be used quite often, the shortest element name is the best element name for the semantic concept of "dialogue". " 15:38:17 http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Dialogue 15:38:33 RM: represents fact that individual is uttering statement 15:38:57 GJR: provides a means to represent text that is expressed by an individual or group of individuals 15:39:25 RM: perhaps should make distinction -- 15:40:10 15:40:10
    15:40:10
    Shopkeeper
    15:40:10
    [obviously lying] Sorry, we're just closing for lunch
    15:40:10
    15:40:10     15:40:45 RM: don't think D would be right thing there - DL for scene 15:40:51 RM: what if in argument or debate? 15:41:10 RM: generic D would be much more about annotating a section 15:41:16 RM: D doesn't carry semantics for me there 15:41:33 "when used as a block level element, there needs to be a child element of D which can declaratively mark part of the text as not being dialog, such as stage directions, cues, description of non-verbal action, and so on; in the following example, ND ("not dialogue"), has been used and is being proposed to fill this need" 15:41:48 Dancer 15:44:49 em-quote would be a :before and :after psuedo-element to indicate quotation nesting 15:45:15 Hi Hello 15:46:08 Id be in favor of supporting inline D with the rationale to avoid misuse of Q, and wait for (along Tinas suggestion above) a future dedicated module under XHTMLMOD2 for "real" block level markup of plays etc. 15:46:29 ... Steven: you cant attac rdf/a to unicode quotes 15:46:37 s/attac/attach 15:47:13 MG: idea with D is can ascribe from whom dialogue originates 15:47:43 RM: Q says "this is what was actually said" - what does D do? 15:48:20 The rule was for deciding how to introduce new elements 15:48:32 we left old elements mostly untouched 15:48:47 for 'mindshare' reasons 15:48:56 GJR: D proposal has role/type proposed for D 15:49:23 SP: understand use case, but feel that if our current markup extensibility methods are not able to handle this case, then somehow we failed 15:49:57 SP: next time someone comes along with a semantic element idea, what do we do? extensibility has to be considered before new elements are added 15:50:18 SP: how to fix this? semantic mechanism so that anyone can add semantic info to document 15:50:25 SP: if not sufficient, what is wrong with model? 15:50:40 RM: agree with Steven -- concentrate on problem statement 15:51:04 -Markus 15:51:07 RM: if agree on problem statement, can explore what we can do within XHTML2's over-arching philosophy -- if run into problems, then can consider new element 15:51:21 GJR: semantically there IS a difference betwen a quote and dialogue 15:52:28 +Markus 15:52:41 RM: role="maleProtoganist" 15:53:54 RM: take GJR's use cases and investigate if can solve them with existing technologies native to XHTML 15:54:35 RM: content model is scary 15:54:59 GJR: next steps? 15:55:10 RM: rationale is most important bit; 15:55:44 "5. since there are many different contexts in which D is an appropriate element/container, a dialogue element demands a role or type attribute, in order to enable differentiation between types of dialogue; a very preliminary list of predefined role values for D follows: * conversation; * dialogue (covers theater, film, fiction, where the element is used to distinguish dialogue from other types of content); * transcript " 15:55:57 RM: concentrate on problems then propose solutions 15:56:10 RM: FIVE MINUTE WARNING 15:56:15 RM: any urgent business 15:56:30 SP: need to ensure roadmap reflects reality 15:56:41 TOPIC: Next Steps on XHTML2 15:56:49 RM: goal is to get new draft out in May 2009 15:57:01 RM: can we create draft for publication in may? 15:57:18 MG: how does this correlate with PLH's induced discussions with SamRuby? 15:57:42 SP: have to carry on according to charter whilst addressed in w3c channels - wouldn't be addressed until end of year 15:58:08 RM: editors comfortable with may 2009 for publishable draft? 15:58:12 RM: what help needed? 15:58:16 SM: ready to publish now 15:58:31 SP: WG task -- assign and read sections 15:58:38 MG: what about XForms? 15:58:51 SP: just reference XForms - import XForms 1.1 with the following elements 15:59:00 SP: ok if in working draft as is 15:59:37 SP: XForms WG discussed attribute names yesterday - going to deprecate old attribute names and introduce new - old content will still work, but XHTML2 can go ahead and just use new attributes 15:59:41 RM: implications? 15:59:56 SP: clashes with XForms attributes -- target, for example 16:00:05 RM: is there a definitive list? 16:00:18 SP: thought solved for XML Events 2, need to check XForms 16:00:34 SP: will post pointer to XForms minutes 16:00:39 SP: very accomodating 16:00:58 RM: schedule another vFtF soon 16:01:14 -Markus 16:01:16 -Steven 16:01:21 -Roland 16:01:24 -Alessio 16:01:25 Roland has left #xhtml 16:01:25 -ShaneM 16:01:27 RM: will discuss logistics of next virtual face2face at next week's regular XHTML2 WG telecon 16:01:33 -Gregory_Rosmaita 16:01:34 Team_(xhtml)12:00Z has ended 16:01:35 Attendees were Steven, Roland, Markus, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Alessio, Yves_S 16:01:37 there are now 45 issues that are !Implemented 16:01:55 rrsagent, make minutes 16:01:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 16:03:48 chair: Roland_Merrick 16:03:53 rrsagent, make minutes 16:03:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 16:06:00 meeting: XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face 16:06:04 rrsagent, make minutes 16:06:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 16:07:04 meeting+ XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face 16:07:06 rrsagent, make minutes 16:07:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 16:08:13 meeting- XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference 16:08:15 meeting+ XHTML2 Virtual Face2Face 16:08:17 rrsagent, make minutes 16:08:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 16:27:02 rrsagent, please part 16:27:02 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-actions.rdf : 16:27:02 ACTION: Shane - get RDFa task force to contribute to, sign onto or issue CURIE comment on Last Call draft of OWL2 [1] 16:27:02 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T13-14-38 16:27:02 ACTION: Markus - send email to public-xhtml2 about DAISY's use of CURIEs to public-xhtml2 [2] 16:27:02 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T13-26-34 16:27:02 ACTION: Gregory - create wiki page for hreflang and content-negotiation best practices and examples [3] 16:27:02 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T14-34-23 16:27:02 ACTION: Shane - post list of outstanding old issue tracking system items to public-xhtml2 in preparation for final disposition [4] 16:27:02 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-xhtml-irc#T15-23-37